AquaRegia

I want to thank everyone who has responded to my post! Some answers I understood immediately, while for others I thought "Wait, what? Really? Well, maybe... OK, I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense." I probably shouldn't have been as surprised as I was by the amazing diversity of responses... it just goes to show what a stunningly incredible job Brandon has done in creating characters who feel "real" to so many of us, and in so many different ways. People are complicated, and one person's "enjoy the most" is another person's "punch in the face". Wouldn't life be boring if we all liked the same things? Thank you all so much for helping me feel like part of the Shard!

Leave it to Brando Sando to say something that both supports and undermines my hypothesis. I think he wants us to note that the Radiants get access to 10 Surges, and the Fused can only use 9 of them... but we don't yet know enough to understand the significance of this fact. I admit I was dead wrong about Odium's number being 9. It's still not making sense to me that the number 10 is associated with the entire Rosharan system, pre-Shattering, yet also somehow associated with the Shards that came later. Yes, exactly my question: where is it written that Honor created Adhesion AFTER the other 9? Given that it's the Surge most closely aligned with his primary intent; does it make sense that it only came AFTER all the others? What evidence exists for this claim? If it were true that for some time in history there were Surgebinders with only 9 Surges, then it follows that there would only have been 9 Orders. Bondsmiths and Windrunners would not have existed as we know them, and instead, there would have been an Order with Tension and Gravitation. I apologize for my role in this topic straying far from the original post... but it's really interesting!

Is this canon, or is it just reader speculation? My impression is that the Surges are natural to Roshar and predate the coming of the Shards. Oops - I misremembered, you are correct. RoW, chapter 2, 2nd page: "Jasnah posited there would be ten varieties, though Dalinar - offering no explanation of why he knew this - said there would be only nine." I amend my statement to "Jasnah is confident there will turn out to be ten orders of Fused." And we all know which of them is smarter. ;-) I've gotten the feeling that 9 is only important in the sense that it happens to be 10 - 1; TEN Surges is the magic number for Roshar, and for reasons we don't yet know, Odium's Investiture hasn't been granting one of them. That does not mean that it CAN'T or WON'T, just that it hasn't. But I agree, that WoB from 2017 makes my opinion less attractive.

While I understand what you are saying, I think your position is too extreme to be supported by the conventions of literary fiction, and is also inconsistent with the author's own stated intentions. The characters we see are unarguably HUMAN. They have the same emotions, the same kind of thoughts and behaviors, that we do. Even the Singers, who are explicitly "nonhuman", demonstrate easily recognizable values and motivations. All these characters are dealing with issues and problems which feel real to us, and are INTENDED to feel real to us. If nobody in these books was using "our concepts" for behavior, if their views "in no way align with our own", then we wouldn't understand anything that is going on. We would not be able to identify or empathize with the characters. We wouldn't care, and we probably would neither buy nor read the books. Brandon has been very clear that his intention is for his fiction to inform our understanding of real-world problems. He seeks and dialogs with real-world people who share his characters' issues and challenges. He works very hard to understand people's backgrounds, experiences, and points of view when they are very different from his own, so that he can portray them more accurately on the page. To insinuate that we're not supposed to make connections between the way things happen in the "real" world and the way those same things happen in the Cosmere is, in my mind, to deny a very important facet of what Sanderson is trying to accomplish.

@robardin It is certainly possible that something like this is true - that there is some reason Taravangian is less bound by oaths than Rayse was. I'm sure we'll learn more in book 5. I'm hoping for different explanation, however: Hoid anticipated all the ways that meeting Odium might play out, and planned ahead for all of them. He assumes excising a bit of Breath to remove a specific recent memory does NOT count as harm; therefore Hoid was holding just exactly enough Breath to give the 2nd Heightening, and once he realizes his perfect pitch is gone, he'll know some Breath (and memory) was taken. I'm also hoping that it turns out that the meeting itself, only made possible by Hoid leaving the Tower, was a misdirection, to keep Odium's attention focused on Hoid while someone else does something important - something Hoid really doesn't want Odium to know about. None of this may be true... but it's what I'm hoping. I don't think that Odium - the Shard - has any particular affinity for the number nine. Historically, in Vorinism, certainly... but religions have a tendency to ascribe significance after the fact to things that are really just random. Nine Unmade? We don't know that's ALL of them - the Sibling was almost #10. There may very well be another one we don't yet know of. Nine orders of Fused? People are speculating WHY Odium doesn't grant the Surge of Adhesion: because he CAN'T, or because he doesn't WANT TO? We don't know. And Dalinar is confident there will turn out to be TEN orders of Fused. All 10 Surges appear on the Voidbinding chart, after all. Plus, if it's 10 days to go until 10/10, then that means 9/9 is over NINE MONTHS away. ;-) He didn't want to wait that long.

I think your description is indeed better than mine. I sit corrected and I thank you. Readers and characters are free to believe (and many do, including Shards) in the Beyond, God Beyond, or both... but none of us will be shown PROOF one way or another.

I certainly agree that there is clearly a mutual respect and understanding between them as honorable opponents, and it was even more exciting to see them interact as, well, not "allies" exactly, but at least NOT-opponents at the end. It gave me a warm feeling, similar to the relationship between Navani and Raboniel - the idea that while we may be on "opposite" sides of a conflict, we don't have to wish destruction on each other. That in the end, we are all just people, doing the best we can, and we can have hopes, dreams, and even goals in common. Yes, @Kaladin Is a Hero, it is canon so it's certainly not out of the question in THAT way. I'm not even particularly troubled by the insanity of the Fused; Leshwi seems to be holding up pretty well, and how many of our beloved main characters DON'T have some kind of mental instability or challenge? Renarin? Shallan? Kaladin has his own issues regarding mental health. This need not, and should not, disqualify someone from having meaningful relationships. There are other "details" that I think may be more relevant to the possibility a ROMANTIC relationship between Leshwi and Kal. One is that Leshwi is currently inhabiting a male body. Romantic dealbreaker for Kaladin? Obviously it's up to him... but he's always come across as firmly cis / hetero to me (past girlfriends, surprised by Drehy's boyfriend, etc.). I'm also worried about the fact that since Leshwi and her comrades seem to have left the service of Odium. Are they going to find that to be a problem in terms of Investiture? We've never seen how the Fused get refills of Voidlight; will it still be possible for the defectors? Will they even be reborn if killed? I have a feeling things are going to be very messy there. Edit to add: I'm also anticipating that Kaladin will be spending the bulk of Book 5 having adventures in Shinovar, which is just about as far from Leshwi as you can be on Roshar. So I hate to be a buzzkill, but I think there are several reasons we will not see this romance, no matter how much we'd like it.

Had not thought about that... but it's very true. We don't know much about the "regular people", but the main characters seem almost superhuman in their ability to absorb world-shaking revelations about how everything they ever believed is wrong, then just go right on being heroes like nothing has happened. In Shallan's case specifically, I had the impression through WoK and WoR that she had been greatly influenced by Jasnah's example of thoughtful, graceful, open-minded atheism. Not to the point that she was "converting" to heresy or abandoning her faith, but that she saw another path, one she had never envisioned, that could allow a woman to become more than traditional Vorinism would. I think she's in the process of changing, but under the surface. Also, in her defense, the whole "becoming a Knight Radiant" thing, PLUS working through severe childhood trauma and the resulting dissociative disorder? Either of those would provide more than enough reason to put religious soul-searching on the back burner, as it were, for a while. I do really like how Brandon is clear about his desire to use his fiction to explore how religion shapes both individuals and cultures. The origins, structure, and stunning variety of religious beliefs we see - especially on Roshar and Scadrial - is somehow both awe-inspiring and authentic-feeling to me. It's been an important feature in all the Cosmere works so far, and while I agree it seems to have receded a bit in RoW, I'm confident it will become central again in future novels.

Unfortunately, science would predict the opposite: a phase change in the direction of gas -> solid would RELEASE heat, not absorb it. Imagine the reverse; if you wanted to make a solid into a gas, you'd have to ADD a bunch of heat. Luckily for Brandon and for us, fantasy magic doesn't NEED to make scientific sense.

Agreed. I have no wish to discourage discussion (don't be discouraged!), but I won't be participating. If you accept that these two unrelated populations, from different planets, can, Star Trek fashion, mate and produce fertile offspring, then we have left the realm of any currently known science and are in a fantasy universe, where the entire explanation can simply be "magic".

And here I thought I was so smart... just the other day the word "stonewalker" popped into my head and I suddenly thought "OOOHHHHH, NOW I get it! The stupid humans were supposed to STAY IN SHINOVAR." Crossing the mountains (stone) to get out of Shinovar and spread to the rest of Roshar was the "profanity". Then I found this topic LOL

Yes, of course protons and neutrons are useful constructs... under some circumstances. For a high-school student, for example. If, however, you are a physics grad student, and your mental construct of a neutron prevents you from understanding the process by which a free neutron decays into an electron and a proton, then it stops being useful and must be discarded. I see people doing exactly this with both species AND sex; clinging to simplistic constructs, which WERE useful in some times and places, but which now prevent them from advancing to a more complete understanding. Nobody is advocating "discarding useful categories", only replacing less useful ones with more useful ones. I lack the biological expertise to discuss information being added/subtracted from DNA. :-) I agree with most of your post, but not this. Lobsters and other crustaceans on Earth have blue copper proteins in their blood - and thus blue-colored blood - which serves the purpose of transporting oxygen. Different color does not imply different function.

Well, heck. If those also exist, that would make FOURTEEN. Which is clearly not TEN. Nor SIXTEEN. And what if you can combine, say, Lifelight with ANTI-Stormlight? Now there are 6 (or 9) MORE combinations...

I think he explicitly says that he is bound by all previous agreements, does he not? I'm at work, so I can't look it up LOL Also: link to a similar recent topic (different "deal", but same arguments):

I disagree that we HAVE NOT seen this on Roshar: during the Skybreaker training test in Marabethia, the one which involved rounding up escaped prisoners, we see one of the escapees reacting to Nightblood EXACTLY the same way as the jailers in Vasher's first scene in Warbreaker. Instead of running for safety, he greedily reaches for the sword. I recall, upon reading it for the first time, thinking "yup, that's what Nightblood does all right." And this happens when the sword is fully sheathed. It's possible that this effect manifests most strongly (or only) when Nightblood is out of the holder's hands... but it's clearly operating on Roshar. I also think it's possible that Moash would NOT be drawn to Nightblood. He seems to be seeking emotional oblivion - an end to his pain by breaking all bonds and forsaking all feeling. He may not have any lust/desire for whatever Nightblood seems to offer.

I treasure every Interlude where we get to see different parts of Roshar. I will say that 1) I would like my next vacation to be in the Reshi Isles. 2) I really hope we get to see more of Iri and Aimia. The mysteries are tantalizing. 3) Book 5 cannot come soon enough; I'm really looking forward to "Shinovar on 5 Skymarks a Day" by Szeth and Kaladin, commentary by Nightblood and Syl.

I claim no authority over 1) anyone's ideas of gods or God, 2) what Brando Sando can or should write, or 3) what he really has in mind for "divinity" in his fiction. But I will offer my perspective on this characterization. I feel confident that Brandon does intend to draw an important distinction between "gods" - which include characters, Shards, and even Adonalsium - and "God". Partly from the published text and partly from WoBs, I think it's pretty clear; Adonalsium was not "God", but a "god" - a "person" of some sort who ended up with more power than was safe. I will also point out that The Beyond does unquestionably exist in Brandon's fiction as a place where "souls" go after they leave the Cosmere. We've seen many characters go there, and none have ever returned; I expect none will ever return. And I believe he has flat-out said that both The Beyond and the ultimate nature of a possible "God Beyond" will not be material for any published work. I think he has very carefully, deliberately and concretely created a firewall between the Cosmere and conflict with real-world religion.

I did NOT know. I'd been happily riding the "Radiants killed their spren" train with all the in-world characters. So it was a big reveal for me. I also just joined the 17th Shard this month, though, so I was protected from all the theorymaking that goes on around here.

Given the choices available, I'm just fine with that. A god who knows more than I do, wants what's best for everyone, and literally CAN'T just smash anyone who disagrees with him? That sounds FINE. Kelsier wouldn't need to let me shoot my wife - he'd shoot me, my wife, my kids and my whole extended family himself if it got him what HE wants. That's my real problem with him right now - as far as we know, it's only about what HE wants, and it looks to me like he wants to be the next Lord Ruler. I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have him as an ally.

I'm sorry to insert myself in the conversation so late, but I just joined the Shard recently. One thing I have learned about the nature of science in our understanding of the universe (I hold a master's degree in chemistry and have broad interests in many sciences) is this: as much as we love to classify things, the universe is invariably more complex and diverse than the boxes we invent to put things in. And make no mistake - the boxes are of our own invention. Nature has no need for classification schemes or group definitions. It's fascinating that @Ixthos chose to use this comparison as there is a fierce debate among biologists about the "realness" of species. Some examples of what seems to me to be the prevailing opinion: "Species are not real in an evolutionary sense. They are man-made concepts that help us categorize nature's diversity." https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/04/27/the-existence-of-different-species-is-a-scientific-construct-not-an-argument-against-evolution/?sh=5b27fac2b387 https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/accumulating-glitches/do_species_really_exist/ Heck, astronomers can't even settle on a definition for the word "planet".... it's amazing we've figured out as much as we have about something as complex as biological reproduction. But I urge everyone to avoid the easy trap of assuming "what I've learned so far is a correct description of reality". It's NEVER true. Classification, whether it be of organisms, genders, elementary particles, or astronomical objects, is a tool we use to help us understand, but it's not REAL, and it's always an oversimplification.

Sja-Anat would like you all to stop using the word "corrupted". When a willing spren approaches her, she ENLIGHTENS them. The idea that Ulim "defected" from the Radiant side to Odium would explain Nale's remarkably low opinion of him.

Not ashamed to admit how many places my copies of the books are water-damaged from my tears dripping onto the pages. It's a lot of places. It's both amazing and heartbreaking how Brandon creates characters like Teft, builds up our relationship with them, gives us viewpoint chapters, makes their backstories, struggles and triumphs real to us... then kills them. Kind of like real life does. Dammit. *sniff* so many feels

No, I certainly did not think anything you said came across as rude or condescending - I hope my essay also did not seem so. I personally don't feel anything is "sacred", at least, not in the way I understand others to use that word. So I wouldn't find anything to be "profane" or "blasphemous" or any such value judgement. There are things I don't like, but I'm OK with other people liking them. THIS part of your response, however, really did help me understand where you are coming from: You sparked in my mind an analogy between how religion is perceived in the novels and how representation of minority groups is perceived. There have been a fair number of discussions here recently about representation, some quite heated. For a reader who is gay, for example, the ways in which gay characters are shown is both intensely personal and extremely important. Same for characters who are neurodivergent, non-gender-binary, have physical disabilities... the list is impressive. One might argue, as I attempted to, that "well, it's not OUR world, so who cares how those characters are represented?" But, of course, the experiences of those characters AS PEOPLE must resonate with OUR OWN human experience - otherwise, the story just isn't engaging. So, of course, it IS important. I see now that for a religious person like yourself, the way religion is handled is every bit as important, and you can't just "let it slide". Thanks for taking the time and effort to explain. Your final point remains true - Brandon gets to write what he wants, the way he wants. But we can HOPE he does a good job with the things we find important. I think he will.

I find it odd that no one has mentioned Trell here. I almost voted for Autonomy, because I recall speculation that Autonomy = Trell ... but do we KNOW that? In any case, Trell is clearly being set up as A big bad on Scadrial going forward, which makes it at least a possibility for THE big bad.

I’m not a Christian, so I neither share nor completely understand your concerns. Obviously, you are free to take or leave my thoughts on the matter to whatever degree you wish. I do consider myself tolerant of the beliefs of others, and I try to be open-minded. I’m also not an atheist; seems to me that taking the position “I’m sure there is no god” is every bit as presumptuous as saying “I’m sure my god is the one TRUE god.” It makes sense to me than an infinite god, if there is one, will create/allow a variety of paths to spirituality. Brandon has made it clear that one his motivations for writing fantasy is to explore how religion works to shape individuals and cultures. What he has accomplished so far - most clearly on Roshar and Scadrial - has been absolutely amazing. The variety of religious beliefs which is represented is stunning. And the simple fact is that when different cultures, sects, or characters have differing religious beliefs, some will contradict others. What is holy to one will be heresy to another; your orthodoxy may be my blasphemy. I think that’s part of what he is trying to explore in all his work. He is certainly drawing intentional religious parallels between his fictional universe and the one we live in… and that includes intolerance, idolatry, heresy, and the very concept of divinity. The Cosmere is a fictional universe, presumably one in which Jesus and Christianity do not exist. My hope is that readers do not cause themselves trouble by inserting their “real-world” ideas of heresy to this work of imagination. Should we be dismayed by the lack of Jehovah or Allah in the Lord of the Rings? Should we ban Harry Potter for being “antichristian”? I think such reactions demonstrate, in the real world, the very kinds of strife Brandon is warning us about in his novels. The trappings of religion - what words you say or DON'T say, what clothes you wear, how names are spelled, whether a word has a capital letter or not - are all really just trivial details compared to the spiritual and emotional reasons that religions exist. Dalinar’s god, the god of Vorinism, was a combination of the Shard Honor and a man, Tanavast, who is now dead. Yet Dalinar continues to believe in a God Beyond. We’ve already seen multiple (human) characters in the Cosmere become the origin of a new religion. In the same way, every single form of religious practice on Earth today has individual humans at its start, yet each of them also claims “divine” origin. Is it not possible that all our different ways of worship are really connected to “God Beyond”? Different paths, same destination? Let’s not get bent out of shape by someone taking a different path. If your path is working for you, why does it matter if someone else capitalizes a G?