Quintessential

Oh! lol that write-up is just creative license on TJ's part; neither of those people are actual players.

Well, as always I assume the elims will have a vote-manip--I have yet to see a game where they didn't. So that's Gray Ajah, right? I also assume that there will only be one Green Ajah, and that they'll be village--so if any Brown Ajahs scan a Green, they're... probably clear? Though idk, maybe TJ would mess with us by putting a Green on the elim-team and just giving us a bunch of Yellows XD. As speculation, given that Green is quite powerful in having a kill each cycle I want to put in my own personal guess that they'll have two Warders, and one will be elim. Beyond that, I suppose Archer and Reading have it covered in terms of the scanning roles, the protect roles, and the number of elims. I'll slightly disagree with Reading on the number of elims--last game of this size that I played had five (one of them me) and that... did not go well, partly because the village assumed there were four of us. Five seems somewhat unlikely at first glance given the number of people, but TJ might have decided to put five elims on the team with the idea that the Green Ajah's once-per-cycle kill and perhaps a couple of village protects would balanced it? Finally, I will say that due to college applications and AP classes, both of which suck, I will probably not be as active in this game as in, say, LG72 XD so please don't vote me off for not saying something every three posts

Fair enough, I suppose (though the description of protects does state that they can't)

Doesn't this just mean that you moved elimination from the middle of the Order of Actions to the end? Or am I missing something about that? I feel like it might be a bit confusing to leave it off entirely...

lol I already asked this. The answer is "no"

Not to double post but I've sort of come up with an alternative version of that game. Link here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Ns3Y5SRLF6NJB4xUj36K0kMb8W6E69BL35lbV6862U/edit?usp=sharing It's actually the same link as before because I made a copy and intended to modify that, but ended up modifying the original instead... Oh well. Anyway, here's the link to the first version: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qhON4-oPZagHMEgUpdjT5Um7FGw3jKmUgxq-4BKGX-U/edit?usp=sharing The... alternate version is definitely more broken, I think. And honestly the game might work better with no God King and no Lifeless Armies, but I liked the idea of having a God King so I wrote it out. Now you can all inform me how broken it is XD

That's the Red Ajah. White chooses a specific person and learns their role.

And if the White Ajah scans the same person more than once, and that person has more than one Warder, are they guaranteed to learn the identity of a Warder they don't know about already, or is it still random? Also, if someone who was bonded dies does the write-up say who they were bonded to?

So I also thought of two more questions while I was explaining the different roles to my Spanish tutor (in Spanish, por supuesto). @TJ Shade The Brown Aja is a role scanner, but do they detect Warders or just other Ajahs? And if the White Ajah scans another Ajah with more than one Warder, do they learn the identities of all those Warders or just one?

sorry Faleast... Yeahhhhh I would have asked whether there could be more than one of each Ajah but I assume that depends on how many people sign up and also that you would just say "PAFO" anyway Edit: Also I just thought of another question. Can Blue Ajahs target themselves?

Also, if an Aes Sedai has two Warders and one dies, the Aes Sedai doesn't lose her powers unless the other dies too, right? And how much information do Warders start with about their Aes Sedai? I assume Aes Sedai and their bonded Warder(s) don't know each other's alignments, but do the Warders automatically know which role their Aes Sedai have, or is it up to the Aes Sedai's discretion to tell them? Since the Red Ajah's power finds the identity of a random Warder, could it theoretically tell a bonded Red Ajah that their Warder is a Warder? Does it have a chance of returning the same result more than once? (do Red Ajahs even bond? seems like that would be... odd flavor-wise). What does "change one null vote" mean? Can Yellow Ajahs protect themselves? If a Blue Ajah scans a bonded Aes Sedai and that Aes Sedai was protected by her Warder, does the scan register that action? Or does it only catch actions taken by other Aes Sedai? Do people without roles exist in this game, or is everyone either a Warder or an Ajah? Can Warders protect their Aes Sedai from the elimination? (Am I using the word "Ajah" right? I haven't read WoT, so... XD) Edit: @TJ Shade

I'll join! I've never read Wheel of Time but it's fineeee right??? No RP character because, again, never read WoT, and we don't need three people dragging their cosmere characters into different universes. I'll leave that to Ash and Gears

I had assumed that if the Varvax Leader was gonna target anyone, they would protect the confirmed vil vote manipper and not the person who is siding with the elims... Also, eliminating the person who doesn't count for parity also added an elim and got rid of a villager, both of which do count for parity. You could be protected that turn, so even if you hadn't flipped I wouldn't have killed you, as it happens Not unless Striker had flipped, anyway. Even though you still voted me off. Anyway, thank you to my other teammates for... well, for helping me during the first few cycles? And apologies for the mess in the last few : P I'm... not very good at making decisions XD but hey, it turned out fine in the end, so no harm done right? Also, props to Ashbringer and TJ Shade for making my job harder with incredible reads XD And of course, thank you Gears and Elandera for running the game!

I'm... not sure what you mean. I suppose I brought it up a couple of times, but mostly because it was relevant to what I was saying. Er... how do we know there's still a Heklo out there? Have you been in PMs with someone recently? Also, I'd like to point something out: if it's 3-3 with one vote-manip on each team, then a vote between a villager and an elim should end up being a tie before vote-manips and a tie after them, if everyone votes, since the elims can't really afford to lose another person even in the 3-3 scenario that Liranil laid out, which is their best case right now. Between two villagers or two elims, the elims would likely split up, with two on one person and one on the other. What that means is that we should be... ah, wary if more than three people are on a train, because numerically speaking there's probably at least one elim in there somewhere; it's likely that all the elims have to do to win this turn is get a mis-exe. They may not even have to do that, if they can kill a vil vote-manipper and avoid losing an elim vote-manipper (this is still assuming the worst case, in which they have one). Thank you? I think you have more confidence in my elim abilities than I do though. I've only been elim once and it was my first game so I basically didn't talk XD. I mean, not to argue with the part of your post that favors me, but there wasn't really any suspicion on TJ before he made that post, and it only seems off to me now because he basically said I was elim with SfS, while I know I'm not. Nobody's clear anymore : P but for the moment it's probably not worth worrying about, so long as we exe someone who's elim. Though, the way things are going, it looks like we won't. I don't know what else I can say to convince you that I'm village, or at the very least that TJ is elim and has been this whole game. Even before the reshuffling this turn. But it's your loss as much as mine if you exe me... so just think carefully, I guess.

If you think this is elim!me voting right now, what did you expect village!me to do exactly? Stop to consider for a moment the hypothetical in which I'm actually a villager. Your accusation against me is the only solid thing that village!me has on anyone. If I'm village, why wouldn't I vote for you? Tell me that. First of all, we just saw an elim bus teammates two cycles in a row in LG72, and then subsequently be trusted by everyone because of it, so I don't consider that at all out of the realm of possibility. Second of all, I know that Dannex wasn't a bus; that train was started by Liranil, who was at least at the time almost certainly village (though now obviously we can't trust any of our former vil reads), and myself. My guess is that you supported exeing SfS during C3 because the suspicion around him had been building (which to me had looked like it was started by the elims, but I realize now that it wasn't) and you didn't think you could save him so you attempted to bus him instead, figuring that if your Cambric teammate was going to die (which he was, once Liranil and Straw more or less confirmed their alignments as village and neutral respectively). Only then I moved the vote to Dannex and he died. The following cycle, the vote went back to SfS again and you realized that he was going to die too. You couldn't very well stop being suspicious of him, so you had no choice but to continue voting him, and in the meantime you decided to ensure that the next cycle would be a misexe. You used your knowledge of SfS's role and the fact that I'd gotten the village to exe Dannex instead of SfS to suggest that I was an elim trying to save a teammate. Only that doesn't make sense because wouldn't elim!me have enough foresight to realize that Dannex flipping elim wouldn't remove suspicion from SfS? I was wary of the suspicion on SfS, but I didn't think I could prevent his exe long-term. I just wanted to vote on someone who I knew couldn't be a misexe that had been set up from the start. Elandera stated that the elims win when there is no possible way for the village to win. The way I interpret that, and the way I would guess the elims read that, is that since Straw's alignment isn't fixed and there's not necessarily a way for him to communicate with the elims, he isn't counted for parity. He could always change his mind at the last minute, and even if he stayed loyal to the elims, if he can't communicate with them he might accidentally vote for the wrong train and kill an elim rather than a villager. Also, we now can't trust any of our village reads--for all we know, Liranil the all-but-confirmed-villager could now be an elim Dione. Personally, I think it was (unfortunately) kind of smart of the elims because we now have this element of uncertainty as to who we can trust. We can't afford to take shots in the dark at people we once thought were village, on the off chance that they're not anymore, but we also can't use process of elimination anymore to narrow down who's an elim, because anyone could be. I'm not trying to argue that I'm not currently an elim, because there's no proof of that for anyone, but I am trying to convince the rest of the village that I was village last cycle. Aside from that, elim!you could always be lying about what elim!you would do. Given that we've already seen a fair amount of logic based on who was killed used to determine who the elims might be, it would make sense for you to try to distance yourself from the kill that elim!you knew the elims were going to submit. I have to say that I am concerned about your mentioning Ghander and Snip... They make sense in a lot of ways as members of the elim team, but if you're bringing them up then that makes me think at least one of them is village... I believe you need to check your timeline again, TJ. iirc during C3 (the cycle when Straw claimed) I still thought the elims would keep him alive because I was thinking of it the way he had--that he gave them a +2 to voting. Once the elims actually targeted him, I went back and realized that Straw probably doesn't count for parity, even if he says he's aligned with the elims, because that's not a binding agreement or anything and he could also always mess up and vote for the wrong person (but I digress--I've said this already). That was when I was arguing with Straw about the benefits of killing him... though I guess at that point it didn't make much difference, since the elims appeared to be committed to killing him anyway. And that's actually another reason I don't think them targeting Straw a second time was a waste: it was the only kill they could make that they knew couldn't be stopped by a Varvax Leader, and it would effectively eliminate a villager while giving them an additional elim. So we know Liranil and the other Cambric weren't converted, or the initial team wasn't four members, then. That would put us at 4-4, which is parity so... oh. Wait. In a tie, the villager could still survive by a coin toss. Right, so we know nothing, then.

Huh. So it wasn't a misexe planted by the elims after all : P maybe I was being a little paranoid last cycle... and apologies for directing the exe away from SfS the cycle before; I genuinely thought there was something off about some of the suspicion on him. Also, this makes me, at least, fairly certain that TJ is elim. Last cycle he suggested that if SfS flipped elim, it would mean I'm also elim because I directed the exe away from him onto Dannex, another elim. If elim!TJ saw the scenario last round, he would have realized that I'd be a relatively easy misexe because I messed up (which, I'd point out, is something villagers do all the time--we just don't have enough information to make good choices 100% of the time). So elim!TJ plants the idea that SfS and I are e/e the turn before, to make it look like a theory he's been developing rather than a sudden jump on me. It makes sense since he knows how SfS will flip. Anyway, given that we haven't lost yet I would guess that the person converted to elim was not a vote-manipper, though I haven't done the math yet. It's possible that if the game started with three elims rather than four, they could have gained a vote-manip and still not won, but with four I don't think that could have happened, even with them losing SfS. (them being reshuffled a vote-manipper would lead to vote-count point totals equal to the scenario in which a villager was exed and a villager was NKd, and they didn't lose SfS at all.) However, just in case it isn't obvious I should point out that we can't afford a misexe this round, since we don't know how close the elims are to winning. I'm voting TJ because of the reasons stated above.

Oh, no, I was asking because I... well, here: I don't know whether the suspicions we have against SfS are founded on anything concrete. From what I can tell, it's mostly that he's been defensive and said some odd things, but depending on the person that could be NAI. And I have to say, I personally don't know enough about SfS's vil playstyle to have much of an idea how to read him. That being said, we have to exe someone, and while I'm fairly certain that Liranil is vil and Straw is DS, since we have some measure of proof for both, I don't have any other elim reads. If SfS is elim, that would make me think that TJ is too--like he's intentionally setting up a mis-exe on me because he knows how SfS will flip. But since we still don't know SfS's alignment, I'm really not sure about TJ. Striker and Ghander haven't spoken as much, so I don't have much of a read on them... and I tried to go back and read through earlier cycles and analyze votes but I quickly got bogged down in trying to figure out the implications of what confirmed villagers said, so I gave up... Point is, I'm not trying to hammer--I'm just saying that I won't vote this turn. It doesn't make much difference, since the village has control of half the vote-manips in the game, and anyone who removes votes from SfS at the last second will fall under suspicion, so I doubt the elims would do that.

...what does that mean? I've heard it used in a bunch of different circumstances so I'm kind of confused as to what it refers to : P

@Elandera could I get a vote count?

I guess that makes sense... I liked the idea of each having only one Breath, though, partly because it's kind of... elegant? Like, each person starts off the same, and what special powers you get depend on your ability to collaborate with others or persuade them to give you Breath. But I could also set it up so that a certain percentage of players are of the Second Heightening and a certain percentage are of the First. Oh XD I thought you meant that the person who forged the sword would get to give it a different command than Nightblood's "Destroy evil". I was thinking I could let the person who forged it give me a two word command and then from that I could build a set of abilities, but that might result in me breaking my own game later on with an unbalanced ability, so probably that's not a good idea. Would it make sense to just have one of the codes start with the elims? That way, if the four all claimed to each other, the elims would have all four codes, could change the codes to something else, and would win the game. I mean, I don't know how to balance the elim kills here tbh. If I have them start with a Lifeless Army, then they start off with a free kill in addition to their faction kill. Additionally, if there are five or more elims then the elims will automatically be able to create someone of the Fourth Heightening, who can use the command "Strangle Person" to kill. And then they can pass the Breaths to someone else once they've used up their use of that command. So the elims would get a number of extra kills equal to the number of elims. It might make sense to just change the ability granted by the Lifeless Army... Or have it not grant any extra abilities at all? I... was hoping the idea that the elims could automatically create someone of the fifth or sixth Heightening would spur the village on to collaborate, or persuade others to give them Breath (hence open PMs and group PMs). I guess idk whether that's realistic, though. It would help if some people started at the First or Second Heightening, like I said earlier. Also, villagers can still Awaken, mostly only through the higher Heightenings, which is the only way they'll be able to do things like vote-manip, protect themselves and others, or vigilante kill (if I take out the Lifeless Army kills). I'm not entirely sure how to run through a game and break it... I'll attempt that, though? lol

I mean, it wouldn't fit very well with how Breaths work in the book... but maybe. I was thinking that the point of having such a limited supply of Breaths is that then it puts limits on the otherwise OP abilities you gain from them? idk Each person can only get one extra life from being of the Fifth Heightening, whether they pass the Breaths off and get them back or not. But if you lose your life and then pass the Breath on to someone who hasn't had that ability yet, then yeah they would get the extra life... idk if that's broken or not, though, since even after you lose the extra life there's still plenty of other stuff you can do with that many Breaths. XD I mean I guess? But like... I don't know how I would define the rules for such a blade.

Okay, so this is the Google Doc that I have it written up in: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14Ns3Y5SRLF6NJB4xUj36K0kMb8W6E69BL35lbV6862U/edit?usp=sharing It's kind of long so I figure it'd be a bad idea to post it here.

Hey, so if I spent a couple of hours last night writing up a game on Nalthis where each person starts with one Breath, and can pass their Breath freely to anyone else, and you gain more abilities the more Breath you have, and if I wanted someone to look over the rules and inform me that they're broken (and how to fix that), would this be the place to put them?

Ah. I... realize in retrospect that it looks kind of like that, yeah. I was on Liranil because there was a clear argument for her being elim--that it was unlikely that Ventyl's train had no elims on it--and as far as I can tell all we have against SfS is a general tone of defensiveness and a possible slip-up. I didn't think that was enough to exe someone if there was someone else with actual solid reasoning against them. But once Liranil said she was the Dione who had removed the vote from Breaker (and nobody contradicted her), her being elim seemed much less likely, since if she hadn't then Breaker would have died along with the other two. So at that point I wasn't sure whom to vote for, because at that point SfS had the most votes but I was (and am) still unsure about them. Liranil correctly pointed out that Dannex had odd posting patterns, so I chose to vote for Dannex instead; that's because Liranil was, in my mind, the most confirmed villager of everyone, so I thought it was less likely that she would intentionally lead us into a mis-exe, whereas for all I knew the suspicion on SfS had been started or supported early on by an elim who noted their defensiveness and wished to take advantage of it. Since a mis-exe was and is the last thing we want, and may very well have lead to a village loss, I decided to go with Dannex instead. And that payed off, obviously. That doesn't mean that SfS isn't elim, but I'm still not sure there's enough against them to merit voting them off... so I'll hold off voting for now, I think. I'll go revisit the earlier cycles and look more carefully at SfS and the rest of us who are still alive.

Everyone's been mildly sus of SfS since C2, iirc. During C2 they acted kind of overly defensive about being put in one of Ashbringer's initial pools of "people who might have suggested an Araris kill" even though, as it turns out, SfS was only in the pool because Ash started off with the list of all players and winnowed it down based on things like activity (SfS wasn't active during the first cycle, and was removed). Also, Liranil pointed out that SfS seemed to know or assume that Matrim was village before Matrim died, though that was a minor thing and could easily have been that SfS was reading Matrim as village and assumed we would remember that in reading the post. All in all, not a lot to go on, but then we don't have a lot to go on for anyone else either.