Vailima

I think it is possible that the Alethi travelled here with the people who made the deal with the indigenous singers of Roshar except as an ignored or second-class citizen amongst the refugee population, and being unrepresented in the negotiation lead to eventual rage. 

This all may be out the gate, but my favourite candidate for that origin culture is First of the First/Sixth of the Dusks home planet. Cultivation was hiding from Odium, feeding the birds and keeping lowkey. Odium probes with the ones above to find her, stuff happens and the perpendicularity on First serves as a portal for people from this solar system to flee to Roshar. The ones above possibly negotiate the terms of settlement in the new Shinovar region, so name it for their planet, and dominate the view of the new land. Trackers from the First settle with this wave, being of course the people who know about and are closest to the perpendicularity. 

Fast forward, and the Ashyn are settling into their new agreed upon home fine, except aviars have flown over the ranges and their future seeing abilities are wreaking havoc on the slow lifecycles of the gods/earth creatures of the singers ancestors. The Singers negotiate with the "Leaders" of the newcomers who are basically a non-representative ruling class, not knowing that these people have different customs and cultures and that they're not binding all of the newcomers with their decision-making and promises. But the bargain reached causes great pain to some of the refugees, having never prodded the forces that lead to their homes' destruction to now losing their aviar and friends, essentially their family members. They leave Shinovar, and their pain and vulnerability makes easy pray for Odiums influence, or for a lesser god of storms to parade as the real "God" in a world of rock, or for "The Rage" to enter a people so used to a harsh nature which requires quick reflexes. The Singers raged in betrayal of the agreement they thought they made, and the Alethi raged in misjustice, while Honor and the Shin have splintered their memories of the past events, perhaps in a bit of separation from the shame of the events, becoming fixated on future purity.

At some point I believe the Humans give up hearing some sounds and the Singers give up dancing the earth into life for a flimsy accord that couldn't stay fixed because of the original hurt from either party not being addressed, and because sacrificing those parts of who they were was unfair as neither made a promise they didn't keep. They will hopefully reconcile these differences, I think with the Horneaters/Herdazians, (basically the mixed cultures who were allowed to continue in the flimsy accord) serving to foster healing and connections between the parties and opening memories with song and dance. Their deviation in speciation will end up being less important than their shared devotion towards cultivation and life, something like that. 

Ok the finer points of this might be crazy and that's okay lolol but the part about negotiating treaties you full know you've not got authority of decision making to keep feels quite possible considering how the topic of colonisation is currently being probed. Even if the rest is nuts haha

I want some music suggestions that are similar to this - Space by Home Brew

Full disclaimer, there is one swear word at the beginning of the song, I've put the lyrics in spoilers underneath 

Basically, real emotional lyrics with interesting cadences - kind of prose-y 

If anyone can think of anything that fits the bill, or anything you still think I might like based on this song, I would appreciate a recommendation

Thank you!

Man what got me really emotional was the Raboniel + her daughter scene. It was so powerful. I could go on and on about it - the way it humanised one of the fuzed, the way mercy, love and death came together, the way it spoke about parenthood - I definitely wish I did not read that scene in public because it made me a little teary lol. 

Raboniel overall as a character was a huge highlight for me. I enjoyed her's and Navani's relationship and interactions immensely

Oooh it would be dreamy to have a lot of Polynesian talent in the cast. 

Te Kohe Tuhaka as Elhokar 

Cliff Curtis as Sadeas 

Rachel House as Ialai 

James Rolleston as Renarin 

Shavaugn Ruakere as Navani maybe?

IDK. All I know is I'd be excited to see some polynesian representation up in there 

Sex neutral ace lesbian here - just a little perspective from my personal experiences (which obviously are not indicative of any of the communities I'm a part of as a whole, just a representation of myself). I had sex with a bunch of men while I was trying to figure myself out, but never entered into any sort of emotional relationship with a man. The idea of it just wasn't appealing - I just couldn't feel all romance-y for a guy, even though it complicated my familial life to no end lol. 

This is my way of saying, it was easier for me personally to "fake" sexuality than it was to fake romance - I read Jasnah as being genuinely fond of Wit and into the relationship. I liked the representation, it felt quite similar to my own feelings, I excitedly told my partner about it when I reached that part and we had a good yarn

16 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Sorry. Just haven't had a place to say those things before. Hope you don't mind...

I do not mind at all! This is exactly what I'm advocating for - taking our intellectual hats off for a bit and having space to put our emotional hats on haha

8 hours ago, HSuperLee said:

Sorry for the long rant, but I agree this is a deep topic that requires discussion, and I know how easy it is to demonize the humans because we're also human, and sometimes its easier to make ourselves feel guilty than actually address the problem, so I figured someone needed to make the case for something other than their total destruction or displacement.

I totally agree with you that humans should not be destroyed or completely displaced! 100% I strongly feel as if the true bad guy in all of this is Odium, not the Humans or the Listeners. It's just super easy for him to take advantage of the "us vs them" species dichotomy to get willing servants, the conflict serves him well. We've seen that there's people on both sides who are willing to serve him for whatever reason - power, fear, because they don't feel like they fit into current society, etc -  I ultimately feel as if Humans and Listeners will have to overcome their animosity and need to compete with each other, and those of them that serve Honor will need to figure out a solution re. Odium together. 

Or at least I hope so - I'll be really disappointed if these book end with the total destruction of either race!

This is very interesting! It makes me wonder about the diversity between races all over Roshar, I mean I never looked that deeply into it - But sure, they all look so different, I assumed it was just genetic divergence over the millennia but now I realise I need to look into this much more deeply. 

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

@Vailima, that was a wonderful read. Could you link these closed discussions for convenience, so people can see what this has been written in response to?

Thank you so much. And, no problem! Here's the thread was posted in 2017 

It starts off as a rigourous, intellectual debate re Stormlight, and in-world morality - it's slightly uncomfortable, people make similar arguments as to why it was OK for humans to enslave the Parshmen, as the arguments and excuses people made/make for colonisation (mental capacity, inferiority, it was too long ago for accountability, etc). I mean, it's in world discussion, I'm sure people didn't mean for those parallels to be there - People are allowed to have those discussions! of course! We're talking about a made up world and made up people here. It is very much from the Rosharan Human's perspectives though, there's very little in terms of humanising the Parshmen. 

Around the end of page three it has hints at veering into real life, then page four full on does, while still maintaining an academic tone. 

I mean, it's clear no one in the thread thinks we should have slaves, and that the slave trade in the America's was morally wrong, etc. It's not hate speech, everyone has come to conclusions that aren't bad - but, to me, it's the academic tone that is just quite jarring! 

For all I know, it got closed for getting off topic, and there isn't much or anything else on this site like this! But it felt nice to get off my chest what was going through my head while I read through it. I know that I'm a very sensitive person, very sensitive indeed haha and this probably doesn't ring the alarm bells in other peoples' heads that it does in mine, but, it's a life long reality to hear people talk about me and my ancestors in the abstract, so I've had to spend a lot of my time thinking about and unpacking these types of things. 

18 minutes ago, Frustration said:

 please change it from Parshendi it's very confusing. 

Good point, thanks for pointing that out, I have edited the title 

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We don't know exactly what happened way back when, and the Dawnsingers did turn to Odium

You're right, I provided a very imperfect analogy. We're not sure what went down exactly in Roshar, so this is another good point 

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

And honestly the whole greater good never fits in. And on top of that the enslavement was A. not intentional, and B. not until several thousand years latter.

Good point also, I did not provide enough context of what I'm talking about - the specific closed post I was reading, had many people talk about how it was the greater good and best option or outcome - then, got into intellectual discussion about the history of slavery, how human's needed imperialism and slavery historically to progress, etc., this is where I got super uncomfortable. 

To have something your recent ancestors went through, and your family is still struggling with, sterilised and then discussed through an academic lens, is very jarring. I can't speak on behalf of everyone who is part of a community that has been through this, I wouldn't dare to. I am sure this is not the case for all of us in these communities, but it is for some. To be spoken of as historical relics, or a theoretical abstracts and in such sterile, unfeeling terms, is very uncomfortable. It can make you feel disconnected, and kind of depersonalised. I'm sure we want everyone to feel comfortable to be themselves and to participate in these forums, and one of the ways we can help minorities feel comfortable in this community, is to humanise their struggles, acknowledge, and recognise their struggles. Does that make sense?

43 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I know hate me

Absolutely not! You're all good, I provided a bad analogy and it's fair of you to point it out! I didn't make the point I was trying to make clear, and all you've done is given me the opportunity to make my point clearer, thank you for that.  

Simply put I guess my OP was not well written or thought out - the analogy I guess was not the correct vehicle to get my point across. 

I mean, all in all, it's probably a bit silly for me to make such a long post, about something that was posted three years ago that everyone else may have forgotten about. I haven't even been on the forum long, and maybe people don't even talk like that anymore, and this whole thing was pointless.

Anyway, thanks for reading and for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it 

Welcome! 

Your username is excellent. 

What about those characters in particular make them your favourites?

Hello all!

I've seen closed threads about this before, and there was a lot of intellectual, speculative discourse about whether the eventual enslavement of the Parshmen was, essentially, for the best.

I'm not going to talk about whether it was or wasn't justified, I just want to contextualise this with an Earth-based analogy, rewind a bit to early and first contact, and ask people to take their intellectual hats off and put their feelings hats on.

You and your family are chilling on your ancestral lands. You and your family have lived on this land for as long as anyone remembers, you know this land. You know what grows here, you know what animals animals live here, you have stories about the landscapes that your ancestors told, and their ancestors before them. You have a symbiotic relationship with this land - it provide for you, and you know how to take care of it - this symbiosis is Cultivation and Honor. You live a fairly comfortable life in a fairly egalitarian society. You make art, you sing songs, you eat meals together. There are occasional skirmishes, sure, but overall you live a happy and productive life. In this analogy, this is the Parshman. 

One day, another group of hominids arrive. In this analogy, the humans. They tell you they don't have anywhere to live. They tell you their own planet has been destroyed, by a powerful weapon they foolishly unleashed - this weapon, for the purposes of this analogy, is odium. Well, you and your people think that's really sad, and you want to help out these down on their luck people. So you say, you know what? We've carved you out a space and a home. You give these people a piece of land, and you say, from here to here, you can grow and live and eat and play. It's what you would want someone to do for you if you lost your beloved home, right? 

It's okay at first, but some of these newcomers become unhappy with the arrangement. Not all of them, just a few. They want more, more land and more wealth. They start encroaching in on your peoples' land, expanding their own territory, and they brought just the tool to help on their campaign - shards of Odium - guns. 

They start shooting your people, running you off your land, and you're horrified with this device. It is so powerful and terrifying. Some of you are scared, but some of your people decide to fight fire with fire and acquire these devices of their own. This terrifies the newcomers. 

So what do the newcomers do? 

They wage war on all your people, utilising the land and resources (Cultivation and Honor) - it's for your own good, they say. Who knows, you might reverse engineer this device and destroy the planet like we did ours, they say, so they come after you, "for the greater good". They destroy all the guns, and it will take thousands of years for this tool to ever be developed again, but that's not all they do, they put all of you that they can find, into chains (effectively removing your song in listener terms). It doesn't matter that the threat of Odium has been immobilised for now, they decide this land is theirs because of the threat you pose, and they keep you in chains, and force you to build over your homeland in their image. Millennia pass, you're forgotten your culture and your songs. Your land is unrecognisable from the land your ancestors knew. You're a slave, and apparently that's all you and your people have ever been.

Your descendants are slaves, and of course you regret your people picking up the shards of Odium. But many things lead to that. 

Before the weapon, there was a threat. Before the threat, there was an agreement. Before the agreement, there was pity for a displaced people. Where does the regret begin? 

And for the newcomers; before the indigenous people fought back, there was expansion. Before the expansion, there was a weapon. With the weapon, there was the destruction of your own planet, and an exodus. When does the greater good begin? and whose greater good is that? 

And how would you, how would the Listeners, feel after all of that? I know we can talk sociology and philosophy and history and psychology and human nature all day on these topics, and you know what? that's okay. It's okay, every topic should be open to intellectual dissection and analysis, there's an academic inside all of us wanting to figure out the moving pieces of things. But it's important to remember feelings. Topics like colonisation are an academic or philosophical exercise to some, but, to others, they're lived and painful experiences, with complex feelings, negative socioeconomic results and inter-generational trauma. It can be distressful for some people to hear about their experiences as merely a sterile debate with numbers and facts and figure. Thinking about it with your feelings and putting yourself in the Listener's shoes, sharing your acknowledgement instead of looking at it as purely an intellectual exercise, is important to humanise real life instances for imperialism or colonisation, and, for me at least, makes the world building richer and the reading experience more powerful. 

Anyway, sorry for the kind of ramble of a novella that never really had a concise point. I'm not here to make anyone feel like crem or called out or anything like that, honestly, I'm just opening up my chest and letting out some of my feelings, which is good enough for me. I'm not here to change anything, just express myself. 

8 hours ago, revelryintheart said:

You've evolved to a level we could only aspire to reach. Well done.

Thank you so much, I have evolved from a disaster to simply a bit of a mess, I am thrilled with my new position of a bit of a gay mess

I used to be a gay disaster, now I'm just gay 

6 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

The viewpoint that I'm most looking forward to is Jasnah's, though (and not just because I really like her character). We get a lot about her from people like Shallan and Dalinar, and both of them think very highly of her. But there are moments where we see her slip, a little bit, and to me those are the most intriguing moments for her. For example, her apology to Shallan is one of my favorite moments, because we see that she is aware of her flaws, despite her outward confidence. I'm hoping she gets some time in the spotlight in book 4, because I think she's the best example of what you're talking about here.

Agree 100% with all of this, I am so ready for more Jasnah POV chapters. I'm also really excited to get to know more about what her and Ivory's relationship is like, I feel like you learn so much about characters via their relationship with their spren

One of my favourite things (there are a lot of these, but today I discuss one of them) about Stormlight is reading chapters of characters observing the main characters, and how it contrasts with those characters' view of themselves. 

There's a lot of awesome examples of this, but my personal favourite is Kaladin POV whenever he thinks about Adolin or Shallan. It makes me feel all warm inside when Kaladin can't help but like Adolin, the most likable guy in the Cosmere, despite being a grumpy lighteyes hater who doesn't want to like him on principle, and the contrast between how strong Kaladin believes Shallan is but how broken she feels inside is always a really interesting character portrait to explore and examine. Kaladin's observations are some of my favourite chapters. 

An honourable mention is any Bridge Four POV chapter when they observe their leader. Whenever anyone else describes Bridge Fours' adulation towards Kaladin, it's like they think the Bridge thinks he's invulnerable, but whenever we get a POV from the actual members they all seem to be super aware of Kaladin's mental health and trying to look after him just as much as he tries to look after them. 

What are some of your favourite POVs and of whom? 

@Scout_Fox Haha my favourite is always whichever one I've read most recently, so Stormlight right now what about you?

@Mist I usually get Truthwatcher, Lightweaver, or Willshaper I think I need to get someone who knows me well to do it impartially on my behalf to get an un-moody un-biased result haha what about you? 

Hi! Thanks for having me @Koloss17  that's an excellent question, surely Rock could defeat Wit in a cook off. Especially in a high portion cook off, like to feed all of Lopen's cousins or something 

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the warm welcome

12 minutes ago, Experience said:

Welcome to the Shard! 

Who's your favorite character from all Brandon's books?

Ummm that's an EXTREMELY difficult question, because it probably varies, like my Radiant Quiz results, depending on what's fresh on my mind and what angle I'm approaching from.

As I've read Stormlight most recently, I'd say I think Jasnah if I'm thinking of who I would most like to be. I enjoy reading Kaladin's chapters, especially when he's observing other characters, it's always an interesting perspective. Rock is just the most blessed hilarious angel. Shallan has.... some similarities with myself, so her chapters are on the one hand, challenging in the way that they call me out but also deeply rewarding to reflect on haha. 

Special shout out to Shai and Gaotona, because I adore the Emperors Soul so much, and its often my way of hooking people into the Cosmere haha

Hello all! 

I'm new to this forum but I'm not new to Brandon Sanderson. I recently finished my Stormlight re-read, though in the past I've read Mistborn, Warbreaker, Elantris, most of the Arcanum, and the Rithmatist (list is subject to my terrible memory tho haha).

I picked up Mistborn at an airport because I needed something for the long stopovers, and I recognised Brandon's name from from WoT (which was my first high fantasy love, to be honest). Instead of just keeping me entertained I got super into it, lowkey obsessed haha so here I am 

Thank you all for holding this awesome space for us to gather and talk