extremepayne

Spoilered for irrelevance Anyway, on "I killed my spren", I think maybe that's an Ideal to Pattern, and then she will swear something else to Testament, something along the lines of Of course, that raises the problem of potentially bringing Pattern up to Fifth Ideal (if it was him used in the chasms and therefore he had three sworn to him already then). But that is an idea I like. Not sure if I like it more than my original one, but its definitely an idea.

The spoiler button is in the center of the emptiness. Click it to reveal the contents. E: I have no idea why its invisible. Stupid Reddit.

The First Ideal is both an Ideal and an oath. Ideals 2-5 for Lightweavers are oaths, Truths, and Ideals. The thing people are being pedantic about is that the First Ideal isn't a Truth. I too recommend using Ideal or oath to avoid confusion. The amount of WoBs about Shallan where Brandon is straight-up lying makes me doubt the veracity of this one. Also note that it was called into question even before RoW's release, as Brandon is not very good at keeping track of Ideal level. Pattern also lies to Shallan. I dunno, again, the whole Blade situation is weird, and I haven't quite figured it out. Thanks! I love that idea for Shallan's Third to Testament! This is my new headcanon Hmmm... now that's an interesting idea. I don't know how it figures into this all, but I'll keep it in mind. Yup, that's what I mean by proto-bond, since he was proto-bonded to Syl at the time.

Well, agree to disagree, but also my point still stands. Only Honor-Bondsmiths can perp-summon afawk, and Ishar and Dalinar are both very exceptional cases. Fifth Ideal Radiants in general are commonplace, relative to Shards, Slivers, wounds on the Spiritual, and... no that covers it since the Stormfather is a Sliver and that's what's going on with Dalinar.

The whole point of this is, all of these things, Well, Shards, wound on the Spiritual, are very exceptional. Fifth Ideal Radiants are mundane. From a meta perspective, it doesn't make much sense to mundanify the process of indefinite Cognitive Shadow-ness. The exact details of the exceptional circumstances aren't worth fighting over, the point is they are exceptional.

He's a Sliver. I'm deliberately not including Shades since trying to extrapolate from them, as I said before, seems fruitless. They are def way different than the others.

Anyone can become a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, anyone not killed by Nightblood does. However, only a select few are able to persist indefinitely, and so far those have all been Slivers or products of direct Shardic intervention. While maybe the Ideals scale a bit, I don't think you'd have Radiants sticking around for any longer than an hour on their own merits, much less all eternity.

I didn't say contact a Shard, I said direct Shardic intervention. Kelsier didn't need to do anything to have Preservation help him, the requirement was for Preservation to help him. Again, if anyone has the quote and can prove that Leras did not somehow intervene, please do so. Actually, wasn't Kelsier enabled to persist not by the Well, which trapped him, but by virtue of being a Sliver? Again that is way beyond normal magical processes.

Right, he got a hold of the Well, which, while not Shardic intervention, was very much not an Invested Art either. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Leras say like "Okay, Kelsier. Be Preserved" or smth, implying that he had some sort of active role in Kelsier's Preservation? Could be misremembering tho. Edit: Can't seem to quote Benjardin in this edit, but don't want to double post. Yes, I specifically said excluding the Shades, because we understand almost nothing about how those come to be, they are clearly the exception and not the rule, and it would be silly to try and extrapolate from our extremely limited information on how those CShadows operate.

Nightblood has grown in power. Legion release party Not only is he stronger than 1k Breaths, he is "the most [...] Invested thing in the cosmere, second only to the Shards". So yes, I would say that Nightblood killing Rayse or collapsing (not destroying) Honor's perp is right on brand for him. Some other WoBs about how Invested Nightblood is: This doesn't rule out Nightblood being a Dawnshard, but it (I think) eliminates the need for him to be one. Probably just Adhesion Unchained tbh. Man was Surgebinding, and also is Realmatically predestined to be a good fighter. Don't think this is outside the range of what we'd expect from him either. Oh, so you think "Kaladin will be good with the spear" is a result of him being a Dawnshard? Well, I'll just point out that Dalinar's fighting all took place long before he bonded the Stormfather. I don't think Kaladin's good fighting is Dawnshard-indicative. His Surges are more effective, his Blade can shapeshift, and his very presence causes Szeth to doubt all that he knows. Szeth is literally going through an internal mental crisis every single time he sees Kaladin Surgebind, so he's not really at the top of his game. Kaladin has the advantage mentally, physically, and in terms of weapon. The only thing Szeth is better at is training. The result of this fight is unsurprising and doesn't need a Dawnshard to explain it. A single Reverse Lashing takes care of all their arrows. Reverse Lashings are the least Light-intensive, so its really no surprise he's able to pull this one off either. Surgebinders violently outclass normal soldiers, even without Shards. This is actually a nice recurring theme and I think a good point, especially considering how much Moash echoes this same rhetoric. I don't think it means he has to be a Dawnshard, but it is something particularly unusual about Kaladin specifically. Well, it pretty much was. Youtube livestream 23 Kaladin being closer to the Ideals is the answer we get, straight from the horse's mouth. While the rest of what you say is pure conjecture and I can't rebut it, I would just like to note that several details in the poem of Ista have me convinced that the only answer is it was written by a Sleepless (about a hordeling).

Yeah, I would have is similar to I'd like to, but it implies there is something left for Szeth to do. I don't think the highspren is offering to advance him, as, like Ki said, you can only advance once the crusade is complete. It reads to me like this "Szeth, you are amazing and wonderful and I know you can make Fourth, you just need to do a crusade. Would you still like to cleanse the Shin, or would you prefer a different crusade?" I don't think the conversation changes anything about how the Fourth can be achieved. After all, Ki was probably plenty determined for the two decades they remained at Third, and their highspren didn't advance them until they completed the quest. I think proving your worth in the way you describe is what is needed to begin the quest. Completing the quest is what unlocks the Plate and advances you an Ideal. The way Ki talks about the Ideal backs this up.

??? The Fourth Ideal is about the crusade itself. Szeth's dedication and worth is something he has already shown and his spren wants him to advance because of that. That is very different from actually advancing him because of it. If you read the quote you posted, his spren says: "I would have" implies that Szeth has not already earned the Plate. Plus, we don't see Szeth use it. I am very confused why you think Szeth is Fourth Ideal. He is on Third, and the Fourth will be complete when the crusade is complete. That is why his spren asks if he still wants to use the "cleanse Shinovar" bit as a crusade: because Szeth needs to crusade, but he could pick a different crusade if he really wanted. Just to be extra clear, Szeth is on Third Ideal. That will remain true until he completes the Ideal of Crusade, by finishing his chosen crusade, exactly as Ki outlined. Nothing in the passage contradicts what Ki told Szeth. As for the bit with the Shards and the Orders, I dunno about any of that. It isn't patently false like Szeth being Fourth Ideal, but I am just really not sure what to think of it. There's a thematic parallel, sure, but I don't know what that really would mean. The overall sentiment of Skybreakers never advancing to the higher Ideals being a bad thing and unhealthy for the Order I agree with, but the way in which it is stated is rather strange to me.

It totally does, tho. Check out my citation for this being an Ideal of hers: Beyond that, this immediately precedes her use of Soulcasting. I don't see a way that this could not be an Ideal. This is something I'm warming up to, I just can't for the life of me figure out what other Truth she swore to Pattern between killing Tyn and meeting the Chasmfiend. As for this, lets look at the wob I posted again. So its possible for Testament to be psudeo-revived at one point and back to deadeye at another. I don't think it makes sense, for where in her journey Shallan is, for her to be Fifth Oath with either spren. So I think this is sworn to Testament, if it even counts as an Ideal. Remember, all of the other Ideals I cited places where it is very explicit that her words count as an Ideal, but her killing her spren has no such statement. Nope. Third Ideal, second Truth. The first oath is not a Truth. You mix this up multiple times, however, so I'm going to assume you meant Ideal, in which case your statement is true. Otherwise, I mostly agree. Especially with Shallan maybe not breaking the First and keeping it alive for a proto-bond to Pattern or something allowing her to use her powers in between actual bonds to spren, that sounds pretty plausible.

Right, I see. I think that the Stormfather artificially expanded Eshonai's postmortal existence past its normal level to allow her the entire ride on the storm. As in, she would have left much quicker, had he not shown her mercy. The best indication of how long Radiants stick around is Teft, IMO, with his talking to Kaladin right before Kaladin's Fourth occurring a minute or so after his death. And its a really short time, actually, as Kaladin runs to the top of Urithiru with superspeed, jumps, and hasn't even hit the ground by the time Teft speaks to him. On a more meta level, being able to create a CShadow with simple magical effects seems a bit silly. The CShadows we've seen (excluding the Shades, b/c those are weird) have all been the result of direct Shardic intervention. Preservation giving Kelsier what he needed to survive, Endowment prolonging the life of the Returned, and of course Odium and Honor elevating the Fused and Heralds. It doesn't seem like something you should be able to achieve with regular means.

Many Fifth Ideal Radiants have died. We haven't seen any of their Cognitive Shadows sticking around. So it could be true, but seems unlikely. Oh, you are saying that this is immediately after swearing the Ideal? Well, given that Eshonai never swore the First audibly I'd say you're going out on a limb to say that she got to stick around because she had sworn an Ideal seconds before.

The word "doctor" hasn't been used in SA in any of the first three full-length novels, with "surgeon" typically being used instead, but it is used three times in Rhythm of War. One such use is as follows: Chapter 16: The other two times are in Chapter 37, Kaladin thinking about doctors not being able to read. It doesn't seem likely that Kaladin wouldn't use the word doctor at all for the first three books if doctor is a word that exists in Alethi. There's also two separate descriptions of the way singers see gloryspren that don't track, iirc one had a tail and one didn't mention a tail, but I lost my notes so i can't find where that is. I think both were in flashback chapters. US Hardcover edition

Okay, so I'm going to be attempting to take a look at all of Shallan's Ideals and figuring stuff out. The first thing to get out of the way is the First Ideal. She must have said this at some point, at least once.[1] It's uncertain if she re-swore it to Pattern or if her oath to Testament is somehow still active. That would be weird, but I'll get to my thoughts on this towards the end. We have to go over more facts first. Let's look at this WoB, as I feel it'll be very relevant. Okay, so she's weird, basically. But she's been reconstructing oaths. Interesting. Let's keep that in mind as we list all of Shallan's known Oaths. First Ideal Truth no. 1 to Testament Truth no. 2 to Testament[2] "I'm Terrified"[3] "I'm a murderer. I killed my father."[4] I killed my mother[5] And then, of course, what we all suspect to be an Ideal of hers: "I killed her, My wonderful beautiful kindly spren."[6] I will note, that, unlike all the others, this is not confirmed to be an Ideal. Brandon confirmed that it was a step in the process (see above), but that doesn't mean it was a Truth. Okay, theory time. Which Ideals were to which spren. The first three were to Testament, obviously. She hadn't bonded Pattern at the time. Then, "I'm terrified" is ratified by a spren that I suspect isn't Pattern,[7] which would make it Testament. The only problem with this is, Shallan needs to swear three Ideals to get Blade[2] and if that's to Testament she hasn't sworn three to Pattern (even counting that strange First) by the time she uses a living Shardblade in the latter half of Words of Radiance. At least, only going by the Ideals on this list. There could well be others. Due to Shallan reconstructing oaths, I'm actually coming around on Jofwu's theory that Shallan uses the Testamentblade. After all, she could perhaps have revitalized the bond by then and then broken it again??? Or something like that. Point is, I don't completely rule it out like I used to. I killed my father is really vague. At least we know its a Truth, but Shallan hasn't seen Pattern yet, so it might be to Testament. On the other hand, she had killed Testament by the time she killed her dad, so this can't be a previous Oath she's reconstructing, it has to be a new one. So undecided. I killed my mother, luckily, is less vague. Pattern himself is around when she swears it, So I'm going to assume this one is sworn to Pattern. Even though it was the Testamentblade that Shallan killed her mother with. And then, I killed my spren. Since this is about Testament, and Testament is present, and it was a step twoards fixing her, I'm going to say this is most likely sworn to Testament. If it's an Ideal at all, but I think it is. Okay, now comes the time when I move on from established fact and simple extrapolations and just totally spitball. Here is my current thinking of Shallan's Ideals: To Testament: First Ideal I'm terrified Unknown I killed my spren To Pattern: First Ideal I killed my father I killed my mother Some things here: I think its likely that Shallan, considering the Davar family situation, swore "I'm terrified" to Testament as a child and then reconstructed it with Testament later on. This is supported by the fact that Pattern's voice doesn't match the one that accepts this Ideal. As for the whole deal with her clearly fully living Blade[8] in Words of Radiance, I'm going to hold off until I come up with a better solution. As I see it, potential solutions are: Testament is fully revived and up to Third during this time. Of course, this raises the question of what her Third Ideal was to her and when she fixed it, as well as how she didn't notice the duplicate Pattern during these scenes. And, of course, how she then later killed the spren. since it is deadeyed by the time she meets it in Shadesmar. Or, Pattern is up to the Third Ideal already by these scenes, which is problematic because I can't figure out what the other Truth Shallan has spoken by this time is. Lastly, the Blade used to kill Tyn, which could be a Deadblade, is seperate from the living one used throughout the rest of the book. This means Shallan speaks an Ideal between killing Tyn and getting lost in the chasms. Any guesses? By the time we get to Oathbringer, I assume that Shallan is using the Patternblade because she's up to three Ideals with him anyways. Brandon thinks the answer is clear[9] but I don't. On the First, here's my (half-formed) idea. Shallan swears it once to Testament, then breaks it by killing Testament. She then revives Testament with "I'm terrified." This revival also reinstates her First Ideal by virtue of swearing a Second, which then allows her to transfer her First to Pattern like someone bonding multiple spren under more typical circumstances probably would be able to. She quickly swears "I killed my father" to Pattern, which then allows her to keep Pattern's bond alive even if she subsequently regresses on Testament's bond. Lastly, this is my first forum topic so it's not as nice as I'd like. Please forgive any errors. References Discord message (by me) which inspired this

Returned are also bound to their planet. Whatever the secret is, Vasher has figured it out.

Luckspren? Last I theorized, that was not the consensus. The spren on Nale's portrait have been confirmed to be the blue ones, and mandras are not blue. The rest of the list is sound. Although there are those who would argue that each fatspren has a different cousinspren.

@GoWibble He needs Appearance and Personality and Attributes and Abilities sections. Also, some parts of his History section don't quite include the level of detail the coppermind usually does. For more information, check out https://coppermind.net/wiki/Help:Article_structure/Characters and maybe take a look at some of the exemplary character articles on the wiki. If you could make yourself known on the coppermind discord (send a message to new-editors-corner indentifying yourself by your wiki username), me and the Keepers can help you further.

Dang. Well, it won't hurt to be signed up for the future... that is if his site ever gets back on its feet. E: Finally went through! yay

Trying to sign up for newsletter but his site is a bit slow rn... hope I get in before today's issue goes out

Wow, cool! Thanks for that WoB, that's exactly what I was looking for. Makes me wonder what eye color a Skybreaker would have (smokestone), or an Edgedancer (diamond). Was either mentioned in the books? Back to OP's questions, the first one to me is 100% answered by the WoB. Shallan's eyes are blue and neither WoB nor prose indicates them turning red (garnet) whatsoever (IIRC). It's weird that lighteyes don't get this interaction while darkeyes do, but that appears to be how it works. The second question is more interesting, but there's a WoB where Brandon appears to not be ready to canonize exactly how genetics work for darkeyed Radiants. Really it boils down to whether the DNA of the Radiant is changed or simply the proteins that usually manifest as a result of DNA, which is largely immaterial to the story and might never be answered.

I'm confused where you got the implication that willshapers specifically have purple eyes and that windrunners are the only order with blue eyes. Could you post a book quote or WoB confirming this? I've never heard of anything like it.