KandraAllomancer

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Cultivation can't do much most of the time either.  She is in hiding.

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Gavin-son-son-Odegard

How does Cultivation figure in this conflict between Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

So, what people assume is that Cultivation is hiding. I would disagree with that. People in-world would assume that.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

How can she do that?  Just one shards interest in you is noticeable.  Remember how Cultivation could tell Odium was interested in Dalinar?

To be fair, Odium was interested in Dalinar first, long before he met Cultivation. Cultivation is a Shard with a full power, Odium is bound on a separate planet and somehow injured (hence the Broken One). That results in a slight advantage for Slammer. Small things can likely be hidden from Odium e.g. Shallan being Lightweaver not an Elsecaller. And Cultivation had a lot of time to move lots of things in motion - Taravangian is a very probable candidate here, also Sja-anat maybe? There'll be more that we don't see for now, most likely

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

When he was around.  The 10 silver kingdoms functioned at all times not just during the desolations.

The kingdoms had their own royalty, I think (why would Jezrien be a Herald of Kings if there were no kings?) and given the scale of destruction after a Desolation, Urithiru was probably like a relief organization in such times. Or maybe that's just how I imagine it

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Bondsmith candidates are super important.  You can't hide your potential picks very well from people with future seeing capabilities and of course every shard would try and weigh the outcome.  Rosharan shards don't seem to get the prime directive.

The Stormfather is in a lost position here, I agree. But Cultivation can probably hide her candidate from Odium. No idea about the Sibling, he's a complete wildcard here

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That was actually a fairly common attitude among a large number of world leaders.  Gandhi did not want India to participate in the war.  Also he was a pacifist so he would have no input on military affairs beyond them not happening.  He managed to organize and maintain the entire Indian nation to force the expulsion of England.

Not wanting to participate in the war is one thing and hardcore pacifism is another

1 hour ago, Karger said:

He certainly delegated.  All leaders do.  I actually don't understand how that is different from Dalinar.  Dalinar's big idea is the radiant coalition.  He expects to be listened to especially on military matters but the actual codification of laws for the tower are being done by the Azish at the moment.  Dalinar's ideas only mattered when he became capable of explaining them to other people and they became willing to listen.  It is possible that the spren might experiment a bit or that you occasionally get unconventional candidates for one reason or another but the vast majority of leaders of the bondsmith type will, in my view, be older experienced and concerned with ethics of a specific type in some capasity.

Dalinar is still the de facto military leader and the face of the coalition, which, before the Last Desolation, would be Jezrien's role, I believe

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I don't think we have enough background on her.  Also what makes her safe? 

She's not (as far as we know) manipulated be every living Shard left on Roshar

4 hours ago, Karger said:

You really should stop using her as an example.  I don't think she implies what you think she does.

I treat her as a person who could unite and inspire people based on some grand idea. I don't deny that she does have many features of other Orders (especially Stonewards) and I don't claim much knowledge on historical authenticity here, but that's how she came to be remembered

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Gandhi is much better and he did actually have several policies.

He did have some great ones, but than again there were things like this message to the British people in 1940 (based on Wikipedia):

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I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them.

He was excellent at inspiring people and uniting them around a common cause, but actually running a country with that attitude? Big no. When it came to military issues, Gandhi was quickly sidelined, as far as I can understand

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Except Ishar founded the orders and according to the prelude was largely responsible for establishing Heraldic policy.

The best quote I could find is this (WoR, chapter 2):

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But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

He was a charismatic leader with the Big Idea. He convinced other Heralds to form the Oathpact. Then he realized the necessity of organizing the KR. That's what he provided - the initial idea, charismatic leadership and enough followers to back this up with force. As for actually creating the laws, organizing stuff etc. I would assume that was more Jezrien and Nale.

I admit though that it's just my interpretation of Ishar, and it might not end up being true

4 hours ago, Karger said:

Who would you consider a safer choice?

The best candidate of the ones mentioned in this thread seems to be Queen Fen, but I'm not sure if she's broken enough to be Radiant in the first place

@Karger We don't really know all the details about Urithiru's power structure so we can't find definite answers at this moments. Hopefully we'll get some useful information soon, maybe even in RoW

Just to clarify my position, here's what I believe about Bondsmiths and Urithiru:

The thrones, as in positions of authority, probably belonged to the Heralds. The phrase "Urithiru and its thrones" might simply signify the closer link to divinity they shared with the Bondsmiths. Before Aharietiam, Heralds were the ones guiding humanity, they had millenia of experience. The KR helped them according to their own order: as military leaders/protectors (Windrunners), ambassadors to the spren (Elsecallers) etc. I believe that Bondsmiths' purpose was to provide unity and hope to people in the times that required great sacrifice, not necessarily make good policies (hence the real life equivalents would be Joan of Arc, Gandhi etc.). Their Oaths clearly show us what decisions would lead to killing the gospren - intentionally dividing people and failing to acknowledge and learn from their mistakes. Dalinar fails at many decisions and goals: he fails to unite the highprinces, prevent the Everstorm and keep the coalition whole. But he still keeps going, which is exactly what allows him to progress with his Oaths. At the end of OB he can write

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Listen to the words of a fool. If they cannot make you less foolish, at least let them give you hope. For I, of all people, have changed.

and that's what I believe could be the Bondsmiths' credo

There are two caveats about Dalinar though:

A. He's not just a Bondsmith now - as a leader of the human coalition he's doing the job that historically belonged to Jezrien (some parallel with the Stormfather who besides being a godspren has also a special affinity for Windrunners and honorspren)

B. Dalinar, in my opinion, has all the qualities of a good Bondsmith, but he's far from being a safe choice. He's still very connected to Odium and his Bondsmith-like attitude stemmed from magical amnesia. His bond with the Stormfather is not what's logical - it's what best for the narrative of the Stormlight books

31 minutes ago, Karger said:

She was a source of courage and inspiration not of actual policy.

Pious + guiding + uniting people sounds, at least in principle, very Bondsmith-like. I don't think we have any evidence that every Bondsmith was actually included in policy making. I think that "one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones." simply refers to the Sibling Bondsmith and their involvement in maintaning Urithiru functionality

34 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally would not call several millennia of success failure.

To be more precise: failed miserably soon after Honor died and Cultivaton turned away from the world

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

In all seriousness I think that Cultivation has better methods of helping people grow up that pushing them into a relationship that they are not ready for and could be kind of dangerous for the NW if it does not work out.

Why assume they're not ready? Determining if somebody is ready for the bond and will respond well to mentioned guidance is relatively easy when you have futuresight

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

It is not just Navani it is all of humanity.  Jasnah does not seem to mind either and considering her expertise I think she would be aware of a moral crime being committed.

Typical modern fabrials (painrial etc.) use non-sapient spren, so there's no moral problem as far as I can tell. Ancient fabrials are a mystery. Half-shards, on the other hand, are relatively new and (assuming the truth of Taravangian's words) offer a unique moral conundrum

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

One of the only things we actually know about the Bondsmiths is that "one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones."  I have a hard time believing that world leaders would let themselves be advised by nobodies with no experience.

Historical counterexample: Joan of Arc. Teenager. Illiterate

But seriously: with Cultivation taking active part in guiding humans and the KR being an established organization with long history, the matters looked differently. The most suitable replacement candidate was probably known in advance before any given Bondsmith died. And, in the end, the Radiants failed miserably. Honor is dead. In such circumstances it's possible (though by no means proven) that Cultivation and the godspren may want to take another route

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Then why not wait until arc two to bond?  If they are not useful now their really is no point.  The oaths also have to come in their own time.  You can't rush the process.

Shaping a person to be the best version of themselves seems like the very definition of Cultivation

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

We don't know much about the sibling in general.  However they strike me as a pretty impersonal kind of spren.  I am also somewhat doubtful that the sibiling minds the existence of sapiant spren fabrials considering the many thousands of millennia that oathgates have been in use.  If you want the sibling made why not just reference the recreance like the inkspren?

We don't know how the ancient fabrials were created; given that the magic system is of Honor and Cultivation I highly doubt that the spren were forced. The Oathgate spren in OB certainly didn't seem angry at their fate. What Navani does seems to be different. The Recreance is obviously a valid point as well

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I agree with a lot of this but I will still maintain that your bondsmith candidates are going to be older and they are also going to be experienced running things, have a high level understanding of ethics and be used to some form of management.  They don't need to be kings.  They could be business leaders, project managers, university heads, high level nobles or bureaucrats and as you said religious leaders but unlike the windrunners I don't think your going to get many "raw recruits."

That's perfectly fine reasoning, but it's based on an implicit assumption that the godspren want to provide an immediate advantage for humanity. Unlike the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher has a living parent with supposedly great futuresight and might be persuaded by Cultivation to bond with a candidate whose qualifications will bloom and become useful only in Arc 2. As for the Sibling, I can definitely imagine them being angry at Navani and humankind in general (if Taravangian's revelation that half-shard spren are sapient and trapped against their will turns out to be true) and turn to Singers instead

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

They are going to be the people with leadership experience.

That's technically the attribute of Windrunners, for Bondsmiths we have Pious/ Guiding. Also, I'm not sure if spren look for experience or potential more. What experience did Tien have, for example, to potentially become a Lightweaver?

12 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I see where your coming from, but I think the Bondsmith spren are more than likely to seek out existing rulers and others with large influence. They are the top of the spren world and will want to bond with the top of the human world.

Maybe, though in Dalinar's case his power and reputation turned out to be both a boon and a curse The Sibling wouldn't even probably understand the concept of lighteyeys/darkeyes in the beginning and their Bondsmith would reside in Urithiru anyway, so they seem far less susceptible to choosing an established person of authority.

As for the Nightwatcher - Yanagawn maybe? He's literally the middle ground in that regard and watching him grow as a ruler as the NW grows to understand human relations would be extremely interesting

7 minutes ago, R J said:

Haha, is it just me or does the second WoB contradict itself? 

Kind of, yeah Although it could also mean that the sugar or the process of metabolizing stuff into sugar is the gateway, not the food itself

16 hours ago, Karger said:

Queen Fen strikes me as a more Stormfathery type.  I agree that an Azish bureaucrat would be a great choice for the sibling.  I personally hope they are some kind of entrenched fossil that Dalinar has to dig out of the palace.

Not related to personality, but I would find it very weird if all Bondsmiths turned out to be human lighteyes (or people with high social status in Azir's case)

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I actually don't think it is.  Lift seems to actually convert while allomancy as you say is powered by a gateway.

9 hours ago, R J said:

note that we currently have conflicting WoBs regarding whether metal burnt by Allomancers is lost or not

We actually also have conflicting (or at least very confusing) WoBs on Lift, but the latter explicitly confirms the analogy with Allomantic metals:

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Gary Singer (paraphrased)

Could Lift convert food from other cosmere worlds into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. Lift's Spiritweb has something changed about it to allow converting mass to Investiture directly.

Out of Excuses 2016 (Sept. 23, 2016)

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Argent

Does Lift turn food into Investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on--

Brandon Sanderson

Similar to the metals.

Argent

So like a gate?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

Okay, that's good to know.

Brandon Sanderson

She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It's not actually the food, it's-- It's not like the metals, not exactly. It's not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into Investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense?

Argent

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into Investiture. Does that make sense?

Argent

That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats--

Brandon Sanderson

She's got to have a blood sugar spike.

Argent

So if she eats like a cake it will give her more Investiture--

Brandon Sanderson

Faster. It will give her faster.

Argent

Whereas if she eats a vegetable...

Brandon Sanderson

Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that's how I'm working in my head. It's kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it's going to go faster for Lift.

Argent

Hers is like five minutes.

Brandon Sanderson

Hers is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

8 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I still dont think became the shard.

With the well of ascension, you ascend and become the Shard with only one limitation. Instead of having an infinite power pool, coming from the SR, your power source is instead the one little pool in the physical realm known as The Well of Ascension

Dalinars PoV never changed, he was still a human in the PR. he couldnt have remade the world in the state he was in

Dalinar definitely became... something. Any question about Unity gets RAFOed, so we don't really know what that was, but his perspective changed (e.g. seeing Odium as small) and whatever he was at that moment, it was enough to scare Odium

10 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

a weapon that can hurt a shard is still a weapon. And he never said that they can hurt odium, he said “And … without the Dawnshards … Well, I have done what I can.”

he implies they could be useful, thats about it

Yeah, you're right. I was always assuming that they were meant to hurt/bind Odium, but maybe they could be used to save humanity in the aftermath of the conflict. Thanks

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

what? i dont remember that

I'm treating atium shadows as a low-end futuresight here, given that atium+duraluminium gives people that particular ability

Edit: Sorry, I just realized you meant the Valley thing.... Dalinar got a vision of the future where he conquered the continent there

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

i wouldnt call him a Sliver just yet. i think you need to actually ascend to do that.

if dalinar did Ascend for a while, his body wouldve disappeared(which it didnt) 

you have to actually hold the power and let it go to count as a sliver.

to me, it seemed that dalinar didnt actually hold that much power, he just opened a conduit to it

Odium called what Dalinar did Ascending. Also, I'm not sure if Vin's body disappeared when she used the Well. Anyway, if Dalinar isn't a Sliver, he's bonded to one, as the Stormfather openly calls himself that

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

The Dawnshards(as far as we know) are weapons of mass destruction.

They can apparently bind any creature and, per Honor's word, can hurt Odium. That seem to go beyond just weapons

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

-the well of ascension didnt have an effect on Leras' sanity. Leras giving up most of his mind affected hid sanity

To create the Well as a prison, so semantics I guess

24 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

not to shoot down this theory, but it just feel like your looking for connections that arent there or tenuous at best

like "oh, both shards have mist investiture, they must be related"

yes, they are related. any shard can have mist investiture. im pretty sure its the most common form of investiture(cant find the WoB)

I'm fairly sure that some of them are random connections, particularly the ones under open questions. But the overall amount of connections made me wonder, hence this thread.

I think Investiture from any Shard could exist in gaseous form (and other states of matter), but color-coded, magically inert mist is something more specific and rare

OK, this isn't a theory per se, more like an observation. The basic idea is this – there seem to be many parallels between Cultivation's magic and the Metallic Arts. I have no idea why or what to do with it, so I'm looking for suggestions
 
Here is what I came up with so far:
Artificial creation. The Metallic Arts come from an artificially created planet, Old Magic comes from an artificially created godspren
Form on Investiture. Cultivation's gaseous Investiture is explicitly called mist and it's green color seems to match the Shard's symbolism, just like on Scadrial. Unlike Breath or Stormlight, it doesn't seem to be directly usable by regular magic users, which again matches the character of Preservation's mists and Ruin's black smoke
The effects of the Scadrian godmetals. Allomantic Lerasium and Hemalurgic Atium allow for very general spiritweb modification, and so does the Old Magic. A person burning atium and duraluminium gets pulled into the Spritual Realm, so the regular atium users seem to exist there at least partially, just like Lift exists partially in the Cognitive Realm. Burning atium allows you to see the future, which is an occasional side effect of visiting the Nightwatcher's Valley
Cultivation's boons.  We have a confirmation that Dalinar and Taravangian got their boons and curses directly from Cultivation. Lift is also a very likely candidate, based on the “Act of Cultivation” WoB. The boons of these three characters actually share some similarities with the three Metallic Arts, and each character also seems to provide a different look at famous users of said magic from Scadrial:

• Lift – her boon (using food as a gateway for Investiture) is clearly based on the same principle as Allomancy. She also happens to be a young, very Preservation-minded thief with strange, incomprehensible powers given her by a Shard. Unlike Vin, however, Lift is a skilled healer, not an assassin
• Taravangian – his cognitive abilities (intelligence and compassion) can be increased/decreased at the cost of the other attribute, which bears some similarity to Feruchemy. Like Sazed, he figures a plan o save the world in a moment (OK, more like a day) of transcendence. He doesn't use knowledge gathered by other people though, he uses people as a resource to get knowledge
• Dalinar – when his boons wears off, he mentions that his pain seems like “tiny spikes in his soul” and he hears a mysterious voice talking to him, a known side effect of Hemalurgy. He's a Sliver (I think he counts after the ending of Oathbringer?) that tries to keep a hostile Shard imprisoned, but unlike Rashek he didn't end up conquering the world

There are also some open questions:

• The Well of Ascension was used to contain a Shard and dramatically change a planet – something very similar to what the Dawnshards are supposed to do. It was also used to create the mistwraiths (and by extension kandra) and had a great effect on Preservation's sanity. We have the kandra-like Siah Aimians on Roshar and Honor wasn't very coherent in his final days... Are these all connected to each other and to Cultivation somehow?
• The ettmetal is crucial for developing Scadrian technology. Is Cultivation's magic somehow necessary for creating fabrials? Just like the previous question, it points to Aimia
• If this cool theory turns out to be true, Cultivation's magic helped to create the Nightblood, which contains Ruin's Investiture – another potential link to Scadrial

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Seems a bit of a stretch.  Rock likes people and he is actually fairly good at understanding them but I do not think he is interested in how those desires effect their actions.  When hearing about Dalinar's insult toward the other highprinces Rock just notes that they will be mad.  The broader implications about alethi culture don't really interest him much.  Additionally some of those things about the NW like not understanding Rosharan culture are probably just a not understanding people.  Finally Rock is the squire of another order.

This particular part of the analogy doesn't work in 100%, I admit. To be fair, however, we don't know to what extent the NW is interested in broader implications of Rosharan culture and human actions, for now she mostly tries to figure out humans by trial and error. As for being a squire - the way I understand it, it's mostly about his Connection to Kaladin and gaining powers in his vicinity. I don't think it's that much different from the relation between Dalinar and Nergaoul, which didn't interfere with him becoming a Bondsmith

6 hours ago, Karger said:

The unmade were splinters of Odium.  Why/how would he corrupt his own splinters?

They are currently the splinters of Odium. We have the outright statement by Sja-anat and some additional clues (red eyes, Shallan's comments on Re-Shephir) that they used to be something else before being unmade/corrupted

I'm not sure if that's just foreshadowing of Moash's affiliation with the Fused or a hint at future events, but it's a great theory anyway

The Stormfather goes from simply a destructive, natural force to the force of Honor thanks to Tanavast's influence. Dalinar's journey from Blackthorn to Bondsmith seems to mirror that. I think we can find good candidates that mirror the history and specific features of the other two godspren as well.

Nightwatcher's magic is mostly about spiritweb modification, which can alter a person's biology, physiology etc. in very non-standard ways. She lives in a remote, Cultivation-related place and doesn't fully understand mainstream Rosharan culture. Lift's abilities (which are a hint about broader scope Cultivation magic) are about food and affinity for the Cognitive Realm. We actually have a person that can unite people and ticks all the boxes - Rock.

The Sibling is harder, as we know very little about them. My personal theory is that he was initially the same type of spren as the Unmade, but was never corrupted and became Rosharan godspren instead (which explains the lack of Bondsmith Unmade and why the Sibling turned away from humanity after BAM was captured). If so, the perfect candidate would be Rlain, given that most of the Listeners were taken over by Odium. Also, Singers as a whole are kind of organic fabrials and were (metaphorically speaking) slumbering for a long time

Interesting idea, but the basic problem I see here is that (based on what Nale says) Skybreakers seem to seek an external source of guiding principles and

8 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Second Ideal/Ideal of Justice: I will use reason and logic to guide my decisions. 

that's rather internal

11 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Third Ideal/Ideal of Dedication: I will follow the tenets and ideals of the Elsecallers.

Once again, based on the conversations between Syl and Kaladin, the Oaths are based on internal perception, not some external, unchanging truth. Elsecallers might be even harder for Highspren to accept, based on the Machiavellian interpretation of the First Ideal.

Nale, however, can make up his own laws, so maybe there is some possibility here. But then again, Nale is crazy and has reached the Fifth Ideal

Another vote for Elsecallers -  great for gathering information, make logistics much easier and (given enough Stormlight) are absolute terror on the battlefield. Also, the Machiavellian interpretation of the First Ideal can come in handy in certain situations

On 25.05.2020 at 2:35 PM, GoWibble said:

Would Odium really want to drop their Shard? 

I'm fairly sure he wouldn't. Besides the WoB you cited, we have this line from Frost's letter in WoR:

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He bears the weight of God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend. And that is what he, unfortunately, wished to become.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

We know she did.

We know she did Enlighten him, but if there was a probable danger of developing red eyes, she took a real risk here. And unless her power to corrupt true spren is something new, she kept it a secret for millenia

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

He seems more afraid then unhappy.

That's even worse, I assume

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is not necessary to the theory.  It is one of two options.  A or B individually would work as explanations.

Fair point

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Same spoilers.

Yeah, but most of them are rather hard to come by, I assume, and therefore not very probable.

The probability argument can be applied to Renarin as well. In order for him not to have red eyes you have to assume that:

A. Glys was willing to undergo his transformation

B. Renarin doesn't reject Glys spiritually, even though he's not very happy about his newly found Voidish powers

C. Sja-anat took a huge risk of revealing her ability to corrupt true spen by Enlightening Glys

Also, based on the gem archive in Urithiru, it seems that Sja-anat might have corrupted Trithwacther spren before. Once again, huge risk and no mention of red eyes whatsoever.

Nothing I mentioned above is impossible, but I wouldn't call these circumstances very probable either