NameIess

This was unfortunate.

Because she was secretly also Sarene's doppleganger.

She was secretly Kelsier's doppleganger. Sort of.

Unfortunately, Lift was ten times better than any doppleganger.

don’t do it.

Potentially controversial opinion: Changing your username early is like putting up a Christmas tree before Thanksgiving.

Now no one could save the small businesses.

Hoid really needed to brush up on his TLT canon, because Lift immediately betrayed him and joined her adoptive father Kelsier.

Hoid.

Unfortunately, this only encouraged Kelsier to steal from the small waffle cooks.

This made Kelsier very sad.

Pulled out a shotgun.

Harmony suggested Wayne could do it, and although he did give the plan as a whole a 1/100 chance of working, that probably has more to do with Wayne's lack of skill with steel and the difficulty of finding another way to defuse the bombs. And a lot more math. And you couldn't get humans there safely. 1. Again, we don't know the mechanics of Spiritual realm travel. Is distance irrelevant? Connection is through the SR, but physical location still matters to it. 2. You might need a supernatural knowledge of your end location. It might not be possible to travel to Shardworlds unless the Shard allows it. The point is we know almost nothing about the initial event, so we can't really accurately speculate as to how it could be used. Fair. I have. However, they don't need to kill Shallan to keep her from eradicating their organization, and she can't always stay in Urithiru. Roshar already knows the Ghostbloods exist. That doesn't mean they can stop them. Jasnah hasn't managed it, and she's the queen of Alethkar now. Is Gavilar's sphere a broam? The first description we get of it in tWoK is 'A small crystalline sphere tied to a chain'. Crystalline means it isn't in glass, and an 8 mm sphere would be described as tiny, not small. I think the payload they were using was just too heavy, since they went overboard with it. He had no idea, but he guessed that it would be really big, and given the size of the explosion when it was just Harmonium, when we know that a blast made by less than a tenth the amount of harmonium did vastly more damage than a blast of ten times the amount of Harmonium, it's safe to say that it would have been huge, and we shouldn't throw out Harmony's estimate, even if it was just a guess. Sazed says that he doesn't know how Wax's explosion happened, then doesn't tell Kelsier about the explosions being able to produce Lerasium, and implies that doing so is not possible. Since we know it is possible, I think it's reasonable to assume that Harmony was lying to Kelsier. Marsh didn't ever make a Harmonium-Trellium explosion, he just heard about it and came to see if other people's attempts (without the proper intent) did so. It is entirely possible that the Kandra are making Lerasium but Harmony's just lying through his teeth about it. They are more destructive and vastly easier to create than nuclear bombs, even if Harmony's guess was way off. And yet it went on even after both sides had nukes that could effectively end all of human civilization. Duraluminum wouldn't have worked. He needed to hold the boat in place for an extended period of time. Since Harmony suggested the idea, it must have been possible without Duraluminum. I hadn't thought about the spike granting steel though. Still, even a double strength steel misting wouldn't have been able to hold an entire boat at bay. That's true. Their leadership aren't the ones going around sabotaging stuff most of the time. That's hired thugs, or people like Tyn who aren't full agents yet. That's possible, but it's equally possible that the Scadrians could ally with whichever side didn't attack them to destroy the attacking side's forces. That's true, but the Ghostbloods on Roshar probably have at least similarly talented operatives. That's true, but risking a Bondsmith is risky. But it was also a possibility. If Wayne had to use Duraluminum, he would have lower than a 1% chance of success, considering all the other factors. Unless I'm forgetting something, Shallan only killed Ialai. The Ghostbloods did the rest.

It was at this moment that the new hero by the name of Gourd made his entrance.

He said that Wayne would hold the ship in place while they figured out some other way to defuse the bombs. Can't do that with one big duraluminum push, it would just stop then start again. Travelling between planets in a solar system is very different than travelling between solar systems. Saying that because you can do one you can do the other is like saying because we can shoot a rocket to mars we can shoot a rocket to Alpha Centauri. And? we don't know the mechanics of Spiritual realm travel. It is possible to travel between systems with it, but for all we know Elsecaller/Bondsmith combos might not be able to do it, or it might need Shardic aid. I think you mean Transformation, and even if they are just ink and light spren, they are obviously amplified in some way, and we don't know how that modification is done. Perhaps they need a huge amount of Investiture that can only be obtained by a Shard splintering off a piece of themself. Mists are different from stormlight. Their techniques won't work the same way. They have unkeyed investiture and Mraize has at least one aether. Besides that, they don't need to kill Shallan to sabotage supply lines. As for their competence, they killed two Highprinces and dismantled the Sons of Honor led by Ialai in just one year. Iyatil was impressed by the way Shallan managed to get into Dalinar's camp more than the possibility of doing so. Right, but that means they'd need more than 'two fist-size gemstones'. They'd need two extremely large gemstones.

The Malwish very well might help them once an actual invasion took place, rather than a simple bomb threat. And assuming Roshar wants to conquer the entire planet, they'd have to go for South Scadrial eventually. Well, Harmony said he could have done it. So are you saying Wayne was more powerful than Elend? Do you have evidence for the distance not being too great? Or for the spren being simply light and Inkspren? He said all the Lerasium was destroyed, which was a lie as Wax produced it. And before you say that Wax's explosion was different, it was. All previous explosion didn't make any godmetals, likely because there was no Intent to do so. Just as those explosions produced no godmetals, if you believe that the explosion won't produce Lerasium, it won't. Since Harmony didn't want Kelsier to make Lerasium, he told him it was impossible. Those mists would have Harmony's tone, not Preservations. Ghostblood operatives are extremely talented, and we've seen that they have access to some extremely powerful Investitures. That doesn't really line up with the books. Gavilar's gemstone was perfect and filled with anti-light, but the explosion it generated only destroyed one room. fist-sized gemstones aren't going to be destroying a city. Even a gemheart wouldn't get close.

And thus rose the Councarchy of Job!

@Frustration, our discussion is going nowhere. We need to establish the scenario better, because currently we're arguing two different scenarios. You seem to be arguing based on a scenario in which every native Scadrian and every native Rosharan decides to put aside all their differences and kill each other. Let me be clear: I have no interest in continuing a discussion based on that hypothetical. If you want to argue pure combat potential, we can do Radiant vs. Mistborn/Feruchemist, but just assuming that the Parshmen, humans, Sleepless, and neutral Parshendi all suddenly decided to band together to conquer Scadrial is just too much of a leap for me. Additionally, you allow that every one of the factions on Roshar, even the ones who've been fighting for literal millennia join together, but then say this: You give Roshar every possible consideration, give them access to every possible use for their magic including ones that could take years of research, and ignore all the limits related to characterization and politics that they have been shown to have, while giving Scadrial the inverse treatment. Unless we set a different scenario, I think that further discussion with you is useless. They worked, just not well enough. They did tests that had a 40 mile max range. We saw that a blast of less than a tenth of 3 ounces of Harmonium destroyed Wax's blast box. And while Harmony might be speculating, he is far beyond any mortal scientist in terms of cognitive ability, so I think it is safe to take him at his word as to the destruction levels of the bomb Not a nuclear bomb, an antimatter bomb. A cold war doesn't necessitate constant upscaling of nukes, just that both sides have the firepower to obliterate each other completely, meaning outright war is suicide no matter who 'wins'. This is a different Odium, and he is still locked to Roshar. And I am more interested in the discussion with neither side being united. It is possible that a few more Elsecallers will be around, but I think the revelation that the Radiants and their spren decided together that it was too dangerous for them to remain bonded will keep many spren, particularly the very logic-minded Inkspren, from seeking out bonds. Wayne was boosted, as Harmony suggested that he could keep the entire ship from moving forwards just by using A-steel. No unboosted Mistborn could pull that off. The distance might be too great for the Elsecaller to transport, and there aren't any Oathgate spren. They might have been made with Honor's aid for all we know. They did, but Sazed is lying to Kelsier so that he'll be unable to produce Lerasium. Fair, but they'd still have to get Preservation's tone somehow. Since when has Shallan known any Ghostblood operatives besides Mraize, Iyatil, and the ones at that meeting? As for their presence on Roshar, they killed two Highprinces and basically rule the underworld, so they obviously have a reasonable amount of agents. Enough to do recon, sabotage, and assassination at least.

If Odium's war on Roshar didn't change their minds, Harmony won't either. And Rysn being Rosharan is not enough, at least not when Roshar is invading another planet. Again, if she's not letting them use the Dawnshard against the Voidbringers, nothing is going to change when they decide to invade another planet. No, it is not. His plan is to 'beat Dalinar' and we don't know what that entails. In all likelihood, he will remain trapped. No, that's the whole point of this argument. And why not? Taking up another shard could cause him to turn into something like Harmony, or change him so that he can't carry out his goals. Hundreds of miles? First off, they're coinshots, second off, no one's making a perimeter that covers hundreds of miles. You'd need to bring in regular troops for that, and you won't be doing so without having the Oathgate up for quite some time. Additionally, those suppressor fabrial's range is garbage, and they seem to require you fine tune them for the power you work against. Besides that, only Odium's forces currently know how to make them, and they require sentient spren. Also, they wouldn't have to run back, because they'd just blow the Oathgate to pieces with a Harmonium-ettmetal bomb. He didn't hint towards anti-investiture, Raboniel figured it out on her own. And telling the Fused about axi is a far cry from giving them details on how to build rockets and teaching them to make anti-matter bombs. Are there? Doesn't strike me that those things die very often. The gemshearts might be buried very deep within the rock at the ocean floor. For all we know, the Tai-na might just go out into the deep ocean to die. You can't rely on access to those things. Alright. Still, do you really think it'll be easy to perfectly cut such large gemstones? There's a reason most gems are cut so poorly. And when the Ghostbloods among your ranks blow up your Stormlight reserves and the Oathgate, leaving you stranded? What then? Intent, of course. If Kelsier believes it won't create Lerasium, it won't. The Set didn't think they were splitting Harmonium, so they didn't. Wax did, so he did. And the difference between Ruin and Preservation's power is extremely slight, so it wouldn't have as large of an effect as you imply. We don't know that. There could easily be something extremely special about the gemstones. Maybe they need to have exactly the same dimensions. That'd be hard to replace. They used guns effectively enough in BoM, so they must have had knowledge of them. Alright. They still only have 1 Elsecaller and no Willshapers. Knowing about an enemy's weapon is much different from being trained to use it. Besides, their reaction to getting guns made literally no mention of how they'd never used one before. They just picked them up and started shooting. Not exactly the response you'd get from a group who'd barely ever seen a gun before. The revelation that all of the Radiant spren thought it better to commit suicide than to remain with their Radiants? Yeah, not very convincing. Harmony said that Wayne could potentially keep the boat away from the city by pushing it. That's not something an unboosted Mistborn can do. They made a portal from one planet to another in the same system. No guarantee that'll work across however many million light years separates Scadrial and Roshar. Rosharans have not shown the technological ability to do this. Thunderclasts are not going to help Radiants. Suppression Fabrials are only used by Odium's forces, and the KR haven't replicated them yet. We don't know that'll work. Skybreakers work for Odium. Which side is attacking again? Because both isn't happening till Era 3 or 4, and I don't want to argue a completely unrealistic scenario. One Elsecaller supported by Lightweavers. Because of Ghostblood spies, the strike force walks into a trap and gets murdered by Marsh. Alright, they take the Roughs. So what? Any large-scale attack is impossible, and in the meantime you've got Ghostbloods, Mistborn, and Kandra all working together to destroy your supply lines. Even if you managed to bring perfect Tai-na gemhearts, what's to stop them from being destroyed by saboteurs? Kelsier's specialty is sneaking into places and stealing stuff, and he's made an entire organization of similarly talented people. Drop it how? Windrunners without Stormlight that can't lash the bombs without blowing them up? Those bombs would have to be absolutely massive to destroy a city. regular-sized spheres don't even kill Fused at point-blank range. You'll need Tai-na-sized gemstones do do something like that. Why would they surrender? Even if this plan somehow went perfectly, South Scadrial is still fully operational. Also, Windrunners would never stand for blowing up a city of ten million innocents like that. Doing so would cause quite the schism among the Radiants. Even if I accept the practically impossible scenario of Odium's forces and the Coalition working together, ignoring Radiant oaths is on the same level as me saying "Harmony gets over his stalemate and smites all the attackers."

Instead they just killed them immediately. It was soooooooo boring.

If they can use the medallion's storage feruchemically, they should be able to burn it as well. With hemalurgy you have the issue of gaining allomantic powers identity keyed to one person and feruchemy powers keyed to another, but unkeyed metalminds should still remain unkeyed. The Set hadn't finished their rockets to the point that they could launch from Bilming to Elendel, but they did have a range of 30-40 miles. (Not 60, that was my fault) An alien invasion will do wonders for unification. And until then, they don't really need much Harmonium or Trellium to anihilate the enemy forces. A couple barrels of the stuff had the potential to wipe out not just Elendel and Bilming (100 miles apart, according to the map) but also the surrounding cities. They have at least a trellium spike from Wax, and probably enough Harmonium to react with that, so getting at least one nuke-sized explosion shouldn't be too hard. They didn't seem too surprised by guns in BoM, and appeared to use the effectively. There might not be others. And the Willshapers are neutral. So unless we allow for complete unification, Roshar will have very limited access to inter-realm travel. It only took a tiny shaving of Trellium to get enough Lerasium to make Wayne a boosted Mistborn. They could make dozens or hundreds of Mistborn with what they've got. An invasion will likely unbalance Harmony, and Wax knows that his explosion produced Lerasium, as he's a Mistborn now, so they won't have to rely on Harmony. Large kiloton range at least. vastly more powerful than any nuke we've ever made. Whichever side's invading will have to deal with realm transfer, limiting their numbers.

Started spending all the time they normally spent planning awesome monologues working on their villainous plans instead.

Rysn is not going to use it for an interplanetary war either. The Sleepless would kill her first. It is currently in the hands of an insane immortal who will not be joining any war efforts anytime soon. Have any proof that will change in the near future? Odium is bound and will almost certainly remain so, it would go against Dalinar's character to release him, Odium doesn't want to take up other shards, or at least Rayse didn't, and Odium wouldn't bother destroying the planet when he could subjugate it instead. No, all you'd need would be a small ring or two per person, enough for an hour of steel burning. Fill those, give them to the mistings, the mistings can burn them and get very high levels of speed. Odium isn't giving the Fused knowledge on weapons technology, and I'm drawing a blank on what the second organization you're talking about it. Reshi aren't going to sit there and watch while their gods are murdered. In order to harvest the gemhearts, you'd likely need to kill the Reshi, which would alienate large portions of the KR and start a civil war among the extremely essential magic users. Alright, so three times my estimate? I'm willing to bet that the spheres Radiants are using are better cut than most. And if it was really so easy to perfectly cut a gemstone, don't you think there'd be more around? 60 miles? Because that's what you'd need to be safe from rocket strikes. Even then, how are you going to hold a border against a barrage of Harmonium explosives? Yeah. He also said that Wax's explosion was the one that produced Atium, meaning the other ones didn't. He also made no mention of that produced Lerasium to Kelsier. Sazed has had centuries to get better at lying, and has the powers of a Shard of Adonalsium. Kelsier even asks Sazed if he's lying to him, meaning he can't tell for certain anymore. If Harmony couldn't lie convincingly yet, I'd call it bad writing. They don't have to be trapped in gemstones for the gemstones to be essential to the process, perhaps even irreplaceable. So their Harmonium explosives, fabrial magictech, knowledge of guns, etc. wasn't enough? They have knowledge of wars because they've actually fought them. You think they never realized that guns that could shoot down airships would be a good idea? Those two are very unreliable. It took Jasnah months to get out of Shadesmar, and its implied that they can only transfer to the Physical realm in certain areas.

And so their awesome evil monologues were mistaken for insane rambling and they were all completely ignored.

No, not fair, because Change is in the hands of an organization whose sole purpose is to keep it out of the hands of those who would misuse it for things like an interplanetary war. If an actual war between Roshar and Scadrial took place, Kelsier would actually use his own organization to help Scadrial. The Sleepless would not give Change to Roshar to use. Do you have any evidence that it will be? I don't really want to have that argument. I'd rather have an argument based on a somewhat reasonable hypothetical that could actually happen. Right, but you don't need tons of them. Just enough to make some burnable medallions with enough charge to give a strike team of steel Mistings the speed to get past the Radiant's defenses and break one of the Oathgate's gemstones, rendering it useless. Are the Rosharans an organization backed directly by a Shard? Didn't think so. Besides that, the situation was quite different. The Set was a covert organization, Roshar is a planet. And it's one that already has a ton of Ghostblood operatives in place, to the point that they were able to assassinate several Highprinces. I was more referring to discovering those greatshells and deciding to acquire those gemhearts. Kaladin is one Radiant, and was very close to the Fourth ideal. Say you bring a hundred third-ideal Radiants, and they each use up 24 broams per half-hour fighting. That's 9.6 grams worth of stormlight each, so 960 kilograms worth of Stormlight per half hour, 1920 grams per hour. Assuming those gemstones are 10000 kilograms each, you have about 5 hours of combat for those 100 Radiants per gemheart. (And don't forget that you have to transfport those things across Shadesmar and then transfer them across realms). Say you manage 10 of them, you now have 50 hours worth of Stormlight, for just 100 Radiants. And refilling it is going to be practically impossible. No, Lerasium happens, but Harmony lies about it to Kelsier. In the case of an invasion, You'd better believe that Wax is going to tell someone how he suddenly became a Mistborn, and then all bets are off. Odium implies otherwise in OB: None of North Scadrial's guns can yet, and the Southerners doubtless have more advanced anti-air cannons. So you need a Bondsmith? That's very unreliable compared to rockets.