Fractalfire

I really like this theory. There seem to be a number of hints that something is... off... about the number of Shards on Roshar. There are a large number of hints that seem to imply that there were at one point three, not two, god-rulers of Roshar and I find it incredibly difficult to think of Odium as one of these three. Listing them off: - Three godspren -- but only two shards to which they can be linked, which leaves an odd third that belongs to... who? - "Three of 16 ruled, but now the broken one reigns." -- A plausible misinterpretation if you don't know that the third is not actually one of the original 16. - The Horneaters recognize "three gods" -- the gods of trees, waters, and mountains. The "god of mountains" is almost certainly Cultivation, since that's the location of her perpendicularity. The "god of forests" might be Honor (I believe Jasnah arrives in a forest? Perhaps this is/was the location of his perpendicularity). This leaves the god of waters, which could then be the hypothetical Unity. The "god of waters" would fit in nicely with speculation that Unity's perpendicularity is at the origin. - The Dawnsingers recognized three gods -- "For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind." Now, this may refer to the Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather, OR perhaps it is also a hint and refers to Cultivation, the hypothetical Unity, and Honor. - The three moons may be unconnected, but I think the same number popping up again is telling, particularly in that they are occasionally referred to as god-like (ie. in the story with queen Tsa). The idea of three gods shows up a lot and I've always thought it didn't make sense in context to include Odium as one of their number -- Why would the Horneaters appeal to Odium? Why would the third godspren be of Odium? Why would the Dawnsingers be mad about a betrayal from Odium? None of this makes sense, yet there is clearly a pattern of three, repeated multiple times. Now, the one thing that does seem to work against this theory is the following WOB: I do think this is much more plausible than "Dalinar will become Unity by merging shards together." I don't think the chances of a repeat of Sazed's ascension are high. Why, when he has all the options in the world, would Brandon repeat what we have already seen? I do think though, that there are really three separate theories here: 1) That Unity is a child of Honor and Cultivation, and 2) that the dawnshards work by merging spren, and 3) that the dawnshards are somehow creating cognitive shadows of people. I think theory one is most plausible and I tentatively support it. Theory two is intriguing, but based on such slight information that I'm going to withhold judgment till more information presents itself. The cognitive shadow bit, on the other hand, is very out there and strikes me as unlikely.

I'm... frankly a little taken aback. Based on your sarcasm and your refusal to "argue further" (were we arguing?), I seem to have offended you in some way, yet I've no idea how I managed to do so, even after rereading the conversation. I did explicitly state that that my "theory" was headcanon. I was just giving my personal opinion, which I then backed up with arguments. I only mentioned my opinion because I wanted to put it forth as another possible perspective. I did not mean to by so doing, insult either you or your theory, just offer an alternative that will never be proven either way. I agree that "The greater bring, if it exists at all, would exist outside and Beyond Adonalsium's universe." I thought that was a given... (?) I was arguing that Adonalsium does not have the property of Aseity and that, since he obviously does not, he cannot be "all-powerful," since you cannot have one without the other. (A being which is not necessary must have come into existence, since it came into existence, some other power must have made it or allowed it to be formed. Hence, it is a secondary being and less powerful than whatever caused it to exist.) Any all-powerful being must also have necessary existence, otherwise it could not possibly be all-powerful. Adonalsium does NOT have necessary existence, hence he cannot be all powerful. So yes, aseity is not necessary -- in fact, I would say it can be demonstrated that Adonalsium does not possess it.

Concerning the gnosticism, here's a quote I found intriguing, particularly because of some familiar terms: If something like this occurred, it makes intuitive sense -- Adonalsium could be the Demiurge -- something that thinks it is a creator god, but in fact is a flawed creation. This would explain both why people wanted to destroy it and why they could destroy it -- because its not actually all-powerful. Edit: WHOOPS. Just now noticed that this has already been addressed:

My personal headcanon on the matter is that Andonalsium is simply a very powerful being, not a true "infinite creator god". After all, a being who is truly omnipotent would have to have the property of aseity (necessary existence) and thus couldn't, even hypothetically, be "shattered." To say that a necessary being shattered is like saying "a married bachelor" or "a round square" -- it is a meaningless sentence and not something that could hypothetically happen. An omnipotent, omniscient being could not even "will" themselves to shatter anymore than they could will "all mimsy were the borogroves," because the sentence contains no meaningful content. Furthermore if (per impossibile) a necessary entity responsible for instantiating the universe were to be destroyed everything it created ex nihilo would also be destroyed (since its continued contingent existence must be upheld by said entity in order for it to, you know, KEEP existing). So I conclude that anyone who thinks Andonalsium was omnipotent, in story, is as wrong as the people who thought Honor was omnipotent and eternal. He was certainly on a different order of power from the shards (perhaps even uniquely powerful), but he could not have been infinitely powerful. If you were to combine the powers of all the Ainur from The Silmarillion into one being, I think he would be on about that power level. Realistically, we'll never get a straight answer about this from Brandon. He's made it clear from his "God beyond" stuff that there might be other, more powerful forces out there, but that he's not willing to explore that territory, because that would be straying into conflict with real-world beliefs. So for story purposes, Andonalsium is top dog, but not necessarily top god.

I don't think he NEEDS to splinter Autonomy - as far as I can tell, Autonomy seems to have essentially splintered itself into many, many sub-personalities, to the point where it even outright says that if Hoid had contacted another one of its aspects with the letter, the response might have been different. At this point, I question whether there is even a coherent shard to be attacked, instead of pieces of power held by many splinters, often working at cross-purposes There are several possibilities that might explain Odium's odd plan: 1) He may not have a choice. I can't imagine, for example, that Ambition wouldn't have wanted to take all the Shard's for itself, even if that were a suicidally stupid goal. Odium's intent is wrath -- he probably can't help but want to kill them all, even if he probably won't win. 2) Odium may have help. There are some hints he is allied with Autonomy. We KNOW he is allied with at least one other force in the Cosmere. 3) The intents of the other shards might not be very helpful in combat. We know Odium has a priority list of Shards to attack, with Ambition at the top. He probably has already destroyed those shards he considered most powerful and able to stop him. If the remaining six all have intents that make them absolutely worthless in combat, he may still have a chance. 4) He may have access to weapons or information that would make it easier to shatter shards. Six against one only works if they are equals; if one man is holding a gun, it doesn't matter that he is facing six unarmed men. 5) He may reasonably anticipate that other Shards would be unwilling to work with each other. Perhaps some are natural enemies, or are even already at war with each other. I would find it odd if Preservation and Ruin were the only shards other than Odium to attack another Shard. 6) We really have no proof, as Elegy mentions, that all six are unshattered. We know of four shattered shards and I think the "halfish" comment implies there may be about 6-10 shattered. For all we know, many of the hidden six could already be dead. 7) A shard does not need to be dead to be incapacitated. Some may be insane, impotent, no longer really in control of their power, or trapped like Odium. 8) Some shards may not be aware any other shards have been shattered at all; maybe they chose to isolate themselves from outside contact and ignore the wider Cosmere. They don't seem to automatically know what everyone else is doing just because they are Shards; Harmony seems to be downright unaware of what's going on until Hoid contacts him. 9) He may have plans to turn other shards against each other. He understands hatred very well, after all. 10) Alternatively, having the other shards join together to stop him may be all part of the plan... In summary: We don't know enough to conclude his plan is flawed. We don't know enough about the politics involved and we don't know enough about Odium's power or allies to draw any trustworthy conclusion. Further, it is entirely possible it IS flawed (or deranged), but he might still be willing to attempt it. As a side note: I would argue you are likely correct in pointing out that something weird is going on, but I think its a plot point, not a plot hole. Odium's plan likely has layers we don't know about yet...

Maybe they captured technology that allows drone production? It's one thing to train people to fly when they could potentially be killed, but if the trainees can't actually be killed while practicing...? Then again, if they had drones, they probably wouldn't risk pilots on manned missions either.

This theory is terrifyingly plausible sounding. If I were an author I would want to make my readers grow to love the world itself and then show them how it died. I always thought would be extra horrifying if we had gotten to know Alderaan before it was destroyed... Even the fact that the Herald's viewpoints are saved for books 5-10 makes sense! They were refugees and their viewpoints would fit into a post-apocalypse story nicely, as a comparison. You win Most Horrifying Theory. Now someone please disprove it quickly, for my sanity...

Didn't that happen after the Sibling withdrew? The Urithiru archive has several gemstones that talk about their plan as if it had not been executed and they left because the sibling withdrew according to others. "My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent- but I find counter to that theory." "The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower's functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists." "Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue." "A coalition has been formed among scholar Radiants. Our goal is to deny the enemy their supply of Voidlight; this will prevent their continuing transformations, and give us an edge in combat." "Our revelation is fueled by the theory that the Unmade can perhaps be captured like ordinary spren. It would require a special prison. And Melishi." "Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."

Well, yes, I don't really think that I could tell something like that from a single wish! But my interpretation of the Nightwatcher is that she is supposed to be "cultivating" people with her boons and banes, so I think she could plausible come to just such a misinterpretation and given someone a terribly disproportionate curse they don't even need! Sorry if I gave offense!

We grant to you the following Boon: A book that contains all Brandon's information on the Spiritual Realm, updated as he changes it. You reveal it to everyone, but Brandon eventually realizes and changes how everything works. This doesn't work, because the book is still updated. Fortunately, Brandon is more clever than you and rewrites things so that there IS no spiritual realm. Your book is now blank and as soon as Brandon figures out how to fix the mess you've made of all his careful planning (which delays the publication of some of his books for years), he's going to track you down and sue you for stealing his ideas. Now for your Bane...Since you wish for knowledge not your own, you need to be... cultivated... to help you realize how those you steal from feel. An object lesson should help you. From now on, all your own secrets are revealed to those you most want to keep them secret from. In face-to-face conversations, this takes the form of a giant neon sign floating over your head. Darn it. Out typed. Appropriate, considering your wish. For your Boon: We grant a dictionary-like knowledge of the correct spelling of all words, correct, and perfect punctuation -- in fact, perfect editing skills. Further, as a reward for fast typing, you can sense mistakes in any text before reading it. The downside, of course, is that now you cannot stand anything with even the slightest misspelling or inaccuracy, since your new-found skills act somewhat like OCD. Another problem is that the rules of spelling and grammar are known to you for ALL languages, past and present, and slang, and you are constantly receiving updates which are often completely contradictory or vague. This is incredibly annoying and sometimes its hard to tell which rules are "official" (hint: more commonly accepted rules feel stronger). On the plus side, you can probably get a job as Brandon's editorial assistant. Now for your Bane: I judge that you are probably full of a desire to appear accurate in all you say or do and thus full of self-consciousness. Therefore, for your bane, you are now prone to foolish blunders while talking. You forget all proper social customs at unfortunate times, you constantly insult others by mistake, and you generally act like the ten fools, especially Eshu. Hopefully, you will learn to come to terms with lack of perfection... Or not. Your choice. I wish for diligence.

I agree with the broad strokes, though Brandon likely has some twists to shake this up. My only major adjustment is that I think there was some sort of terrible inciting incident that led the humans to be justly mad at (some) Singers -- i.e. perhaps they were ill-treated in some manner by certain Singers afraid of their power. I think only something that really made the humans angry would interest Odium enough to bother helping them. Whether or not this happened before or after some left Shinovar I don't think we can guess. Interestingly, this does leave the question of where the Singer-Human hybrid races come in. Some, like the Horneaters, appear to have been hunted and persecuted, forcing them to flee. The Horneaters notably don't believe in Voidbringers, suggesting that perhaps they either were not greatly involved in the fighting or did not see either side as a true enemy. Another missing piece of the puzzle: Why are the Singers so mad that "...their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind."? Its one thing for mindless spren to favor humans and thus "betray" them, but what of the others? (I'm assuming this probably refers to the Nightwatcher, Sibling, and Stormfather.) I think something else happened there, deeper than spren just favoring humans. I really like the theory that Aimian means "aliens". I wonder if there fact that there are three "alien" races on Roshar has anything to do with the fact that there are three (artificial?) moons. Edit: Also, I am very happy to learn that I am not the only one who liked Peralandra.

Hmm... She only mentions Aona and Skai as having broken the pact. Perhaps Honor (and maybe Cultivation) did not agree to the terms? Oh wait... she actually says "It was agreed that we would not interfere with one another." Perhaps the only thing explicitly forbidden was interfering with another Shard and Endowment just disapproves of them settling on the same planet because of the likelihood of that going wrong.. In which case, Honor would be fine with Cultivation so long as he did not stop any of her plans.

@Calderis Ah, I apologize. I misread your original post. I thought you meant by not "splintered properly" that they had not been splintered, not that Odium splintered them in a way that was undesirable to him. Come to think of it, I wonder if Odium was able to influence Honor's splintering or not, locked away as he was. You would think moving lots of another Shard's investiture around would make him vulnerable to Cultivation.

Odium dies! (This turns out to not be so great as it sounds.) In seriousness, though: Kaladin's dad, mom, or younger brother dying would probably fit into his fourth oath. I predict one of his parents, both his parents, or his entire family will die (most likely both his parents, leaving him with Oroden). Shallan's brothers are also vulnerable. I don't expect any deaths in the Kholin family, but I think Adolin is going to have a rough time in the next book...

Interestingly, WoB says that Honor did NOT break the agreement (and it wasn't even a loophole).

Yes, I see what you mean. Killing them by exploiting a flaw and "dividing their power into tiny pieces" is probably not quite the same. Further, preservation clearly dies without splintering so the connection is not a necessary one. However, their IS something rather appropriate about exploiting a flaw to "shatter" something, you have to admit. However, I think you are incorrect about two not being splintered, though so far as I know we don't know if they were splintered at death. Both Dominion and Devotion have been splintered, as has Ambition. General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 6, 2017) From the letter: So 4/4 appear to have been splintered, though how this is related to their deaths is uncertain. I do think Odium's method is only "relatively fast". It may take some time for the damage caused to a Shard to actually kill it, on human timescales.

Well, recall that he is also deceiving himself . His understanding of the intent and the correct understanding will not be the same. I also think he most praises emotions that are wrathful (like the Recreance, where the Knights Radiant destroyed the spren in their anger). I do not know if they were more bloodthirsty, but it is probable they were more warlike. Recall from the coppermind: Nergaoul most likely exploited a flaw common in soldiers, which is why he chose Alethela to be his residence. I expect Rayse was the person who saw best the "flaws" (if indeed they were real and not merely imagined due to the limitations of mortals) in Adonalsium and most hated him for his failure as a god.

It is becoming clear that I should have clarified more when I explained how I think Odium, as an incarnation of wrath, feeds off of, is connected to, and produces emotion. I should have added this in the original post, but it was quite long already. Kandra notes, astutely, that “I think he generally represent egoistic emotions - so, for example, lust instead of joy or happiness” Others have expressed similar concerns. I think this is a valid point, but one which I think supports rather than detracts from my thesis. The egotistical, wrathful, and corrupted emotions we see from Odium are primarily seen in the investiture he either creates or (possibly) corrupts and then uses against people. The first glimpse we see is in the new Rhythms he provides the singers with -- almost all are negative: Abashment, Agony, Conceit, Craving, Destruction, Fury, Spite, Subservience, and Withdrawal are those listed by Coppermind. We see manifestations of hatred or war (spite, destruction, Fury), manifestations of torture (agony), and manifestations of enslavement (subservience, withdrawal, abashment). The one we see that is perhaps closest to passion is "craving," but you are correct that it has a mostly negative context. The other glimpse, of course, is of the unmade, which are said to be splinters of Odium in some respect. The most well-known seem somewhat similar to the deadly sins: - Ashertmarn : heart of revel, associated with debauchery and excess - Nergaoul: battle rage, the thrill - Sja-anat: Corruption of spren (though in what way is unclear) - Re-Shephir: mimics mankind and their evils through the Midnight Essence. Frustratingly, we simply do not have enough information to determine if each unmade has a dark emotion associated with them and if so, what those are. Any attempt at identifying a coherent pattern will, I think, lead mostly to speculation. However, we definitely do see within some egotistical emotions, notably "Ashertmarn," who feeds off a type of lust. I would like to clarify one thing about how I think wrath works in relation to emotion. Think of it as a devouring flame. In fact, think on Odium's flame: I believe the flame is fueled by strong emotions that would provoke wrath – sorrow, the rage of war, ecstasy, etc. It is related to more positive emotions only insofar as their destruction is a defilement, an evil that provides fuel for the flame of wrath; the “tears of the saints” cast upon the altar are fuel for the flame, but are not themselves the flame. These emotions prompt the wrath of god towards evil. However, the wrath does not just sit there being angry – it is vengeful, a devouring flame with purpose and intent to destroy evil. Thus, in its wrath, it creates and stirs up other emotions to serve its purposes. You will, most likely, have heard of the plagues of Egypt. What most people don’t know, or often forget, is that most of the plagues were specifically mockeries of Egypt’s gods. YHWH was essentially saying “You think your sun god is so great – well, have some darkness. You think the Nile compares to my power – have some blood.” Each and every one of the plagues (save the last) seems to be a specific mockery of one of Egypt’s gods. The unmade may perhaps be similar corruptions of the “gods” the people worship (i.e. the things they care about most that draw them towards evil). You think debauchery is so great – here, have some, have ALL OF IT, says Odium, and so Ashertmarn is made. You think war is so great? – Have all of it you want! And so he creates Nergaoul. Even if the unmade don’t work exactly like this, the point remains – Odium can use negative emotions to fulfill his purposes. In fact, I would go so far to say that they are logically part of his intent and not merely accidental byproducts that could have been different had he willed it. Odium feeds off negative emotions – the weeping of the people, their fear and destruction, the corruption of the innocent, and the tears of the dispossessed. (The red and orange flame) It builds to the flame of his anger and wrath for destruction, his hatred. (The white flame). And in hating, he sends forth an outpouring of corrupted emotion, to destroy, to consume, to devour. Let evil devour itself; let the shadow be blinded by its own darkness; let lust beget the consequences of lust; let anger burn and bring destruction. So he makes their dark emotions all the darker, so that he may destroy them entirely. The curse is the crime. The punishment is the sin. (The black flame. The void that consumes light.) These dark, egotistical emotions are thus Odium’s weapons, his wrath made manifest to destroy men. He takes their flaws and uses them to shatter mortals. He cares not for their repentance. He cares not for healing wrongs. He merely wishes their complete and utter destruction. And what more poetic way to destroy them than to let them destroy themselves?

No, because they were first harmed in the war by humanity. He likely doesn't judge them "worse," he judges them "victims." He'll kill them later for their sins, have no fear. (In fact, serving him is arguably punishment enough, given how it slowly destroys them... if Odium would ever come to the conclusion that there has been "enough punishment"... which he won't.) He doesn't want them to get better. He is wrath, not mercy. He wants them to succumb to their flaws and die. Remember, he is separated from any virtue that would lead him to actually try to improve things and make people better. He would rather just punish eternally and let their flaws destroy them, than have one ounce of pardon or clemency granted. Odium's response to ruined room wouldn't be to clean it up -- it would be to pile it full of filth as punishment (let them wallow in their own folly) and then set it on fire. Serves them right, after all! So enhancing their flaws IS the punishment and is inline with his intent (see above for more thorough explanation). Note: I don't think ALL the big problems can be traced back to him. He just made them worse, but the root flaws were still there. Because the Shards are the major threats to him and he hates them most in accordance with their greater power. Wrath is strongest against those who are supposed to be most powerful and most good. An evil spirit deserves greater wrath than an evil man, who deserves greater wrath than an evil animal. A human left to do evil can only do so much. A shard, however... Well, we've seen the misery they can bring. Once he gets done with Roshar, he would leave it in flames, but them move on to the next "great evil" -- probably Harmony. Now that last bit is an interesting objection. Perhaps, as I said earlier, he does see the flaws in himself and that is why he is the broken one -- he is constantly breaking off "imperfections." Maybe he has in fact come to hate himself, but still thinks his mission is necessary. I do think a great lack of self-reflection and intentional self-deception comes into it. However, this objection would be hold whether or not Odium has the ability to see flaws well. (I.e. If he is the Shard of hate, then why does he not hate himself?)

Yes, yes indeed. He does intentionally ally himself with, or attempt to ally himself with, many most deserving of wrath like Taravangian, Amaram, and Dalinar. I would argue that this is actually a specific manifestation of wrath that has parallels in ancient texts and religions that describe the wrath of God. However, before I explain my reasoning, I must protest your inclusion of certain characters in your list. Odium allies with Moash, Venli, and the fused for different reasons than say, Amaram. In these cases, he is allying with those who have themselves been wronged and lust for vengeance (the fused have had their lands taken from them, Venli has had her people nearly destroyed, and Moash hates the oppression of the darkeyes). He is encouraging them to embrace their hatred and desires for vengeance. In a sense, he is taking their side in his war of wrath. (Mind you, as I explained earlier, Odium’s wrath is insatiable and I suspect would turn him against them the moment they actually achieved victory. For now, however, he is on their side because they have been wronged.) Secondly, I would like to point out that hatred of something doesn’t mean you are unwilling to use it. Odium is probably perfectly willing to use something he despises as a tool and in fact, this is likely why he treats those who serve him with such disdain and forces them to cower before him. He despises them, but he still needs tools. If he were unwilling to use anything but himself, he would have long ago been destroyed by other shards, I suspect. In fact, I would be completely shocked if he does not intend to completely destroy the fused the moment he achieves victory. However, I think you fail to take into account one of the main weapons ascribed to divine wrath – often, in ancient texts, the punishment just IS the crime. Rather than simply destroying them, the guilty party is permitted to experience the full evil of their sins – their own faults consume them. It is, often, the most terrible punishment of all. If you have ever watched the Prince of Egypt, you can hear in the song the following from the evil pharaoh The pharaoh explicitly asks for his pride and hardness of heart to be enhanced – and the wrath of YHWH grants his request, hardening his heart, leaving him to more fully succumb to his sins. It is this, the enhancing of his flaw, that ultimately brings about his tragedy. Sometimes, all that wrath has to do to punish a flaw is to make it worse. The thrill acts similarly – those who have bloodlust will enhance the thrill within themselves, giving into it and letting it consume them. It will make them more and more bloodthirsty till eventually, in their thirst for war, they destroy themselves. Numerous parallels abound in ancient texts where “the people are given over to their sins” or else “God withdraws from them and gave them over to their lusts.” In this way, the only punishment they inflict upon themselves is the punishment the crime itself brings. (ie. “as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.”) Thus, of course Odium wants Dalinar, Amaram, and Mr. T to succumb to their flaws! Of course he wants them as pawns on his side! He does not want Dalinar to accept his guilt because he is not a Shard of mercy. He does not want repentance or forgiveness, he does not want the evil to turn aside and avoid wrath – he wants them to fall more deeply into it and in so doing, allow their evil to destroy them. So yes, he is very happy to let Amaram have want he wants, because what he wants is precisely that which is worst for him (and if it happens to serve his purposes at the same time, then so much the better for Odium). In serving him, they are destroyed and that is precisely what Odium with want and thus not against his intent at all (recall also that in many texts evil countries or peoples, like Babylon, are used to bring about the wrath of God, so there are other parallels too). I do want to stress that I think it has to be something major that goes against the intent. In Preservation’s case, sacrificing one human who would die anyway would probably only stress him, not shatter him under my theory. It would have to be a major, irrevocable split between the action and the intent of the shard (like say, performing an act he knew would cause great destruction in the long run). The disconnect between intent and action, or the realization of one’s own flaws would have to be fairly large and significant, not minor, under my theory. Honor forgiving someone for breaking an oath would probably not be significant enough. Honor breaking his own, most important and most powerful oath or else coming to believe that oaths are flawed, would be significant enough. I think Odium sees the bad parts, the flaws of another shard, correctly and better than they themselves do. As to whether this renders him somehow incapable of seeing their goodness, I don’t have much of an opinion either way. I think, based on some statements of his, that he does also see their good sides, but I’m not bound to that. Regardless, I argue that just knowing what the flaw IS is enough to give Odium an advantage over them, particularly as they themselves are blind to it and cannot see his flaws. From there, all you have to do is manipulate them correctly to shatter them. I don’t think, at any rate, that he misunderstands their intents that badly, though perhaps he may see the flaws more easily than the strengths (which might explain, now that I think of it, how Honor was able to outmaneuver and imprison him).

Thank you for your comments! I just reposted here:

[Note: Reposted from older thread, which originally asked us to speculate about Odium's method of shattering shards.] My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent. Consider: 1. Odium's Intent Allows him to Perceive Evil and Flaws in Others Odium (at one point named “Anger”) appears to be an aspect of divine wrath. Divine wrath is not merely objectless anger or hatred, however, it is specifically hatred of evil (E.g. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, etc.) We know that Odium’s wrath is “separated from the virtues that gave it context” – so mercy, justice, and even the principles of “lex talionis” (“eye for an eye”) do not bar his anger. However, to be able to be wrathful about something, you must still have some conception of where it has gone wrong. Odium isn't just wrathful against anything and everything - his wrath has a focus. Whenever I think of Odium, I am reminded of the Demon’s Mirror from the “Snow Queen” fairy tale, described here: I think Odium’s intent makes him see both people and shards in their most negative, evil aspects. He compares them to perfection, and, in so doing, is filled with hatred towards their flaws and vices. It is this which makes him despise and hate the other shards, for he sees the ways in which they fail the people and cause misery and suffering. We see, I think, a hint of this in Odium’s conversation with Dalinar in chapter 57. Odium states that I think he is aware of how the other Shards are flawed and that this leads him to hate them. This explains both his desire to destroy them and his desire to remain unalloyed with their power, which from his perspective would be corrupting. We also see a little bit of Odium’s nature in his choice of allies: he fights with the party first injured in the desolation, the ancient Singers who were forced out of their land by humanity. He sees the evil the humans have done and he hates and despises it, but his hatred has no proportionality or mercy. He is willing to completely destroy even generations which have no knowledge of the crime and wipe them from the face of Roshar. I suspect, even should he succeed, Odium’s wrath would merely turn upon the victors (since they would have killed innocents in the process of victory). In fact, I suspect this has already happened once. I think Odium led the first desolation where the humans attacked the voidbringers, probably in response to some sort of wrong, then promptly switched sides to avenge the attacked party and punish the sins on the human side. In this way, his wrath is an example of the saying “an eye for an eye makes the world blind.” Evil begets evil and so Odium’s wrath is never satiated – he sees all the flaws and will always be supporting a twisted sort of vengeance till eternity end. 2. The Ability to See Flaws allows Odium to See Weaknesses in Shards Seeing the flaws of both mortal and Shard however, would provide Odium with a distinct advantage. It means he can see where a Shard is in conflict with their intent, or where their intent is flawed. He is aware of their Hamartia (fatal flaws). Since all of the Shards are pieces of a complete unity, they each have weaknesses that make them blind to their own particular evils – none of them are perfectly “good” or can act perfectly in align with their intent. My theory is that shattering specifically occurs when a shard is forced into a position where it acts against its own intent or else is forced to face the flaw in its own intent in a major way. In Honor’s case, I suspect he was shattered either upon breaking one of his own Oaths or upon realizing that Oaths were fundamentally flawed. (I think the Herald’s betrayal is strongly tied into this in some way and that it either forced him to go against one of his oaths or else made him realize that Odium was correct and oaths were imperfect.) Hypothetically then, any Shard forced into a position that goes against its own intent would be shattered. Preservation, for example, might be shattered by either getting its power to cause an act of great destruction, or else demonstrating that, by preserving things, it is in fact ruining them by making their natures fundamentally different. Cultivation might be shattered by either forcing it to “burn” its “gardens” or else revealing a flaw in its methods of “cultivation”. Ambition might have been shattered by forcing it into a position of subservience and so on and so forth. I don’t know enough about most of the other shards to speculate, but I think given enough information a flaw in each of their intents could be found.) If true, Odium could potentially be shattered in one of several ways: 1) Forcing him into a position where his wrath is turned inward to attack his own flaws.* 2) Forcing him to confront a being of perfect good which has no flaws. 3) Forcing him to confront one of the virtues which wrath is supposed to be associated with (i.e. mercy), something good which takes into account error/sin and forgives or heals it. * I can’t help but wonder if this hasn’t already happened to a certain degree. We know the Unmade are, at least in some respect, Shards of Odium. Perhaps he is confronting evil aspects inherent in all men (including himself) and intentionally removing these “flaws” from the Shard, spinning them off as separate evil entities and thus making himself “the Broken one”. Alternatively, they might be “distorted reflections” of the evil in either men or Shards that he uses to accomplish his attacks. Cultivation would probably be in a good position to pull something like this off, probably by guiding the people of Roshar, both Singer and human, to rally against him and reject their mutual hatred in a larger version of Dalinar’s refusal to let Odium “have his pain” (i.e. his flaw). However, if Odium were shattered, I think the result would likely be tragedy. Consider the above quote with the Demon’s Mirror. If he is shattered, Odium would become even worse, because his splinters would enter into the hearts of men, Singer, Spren, and (perhaps) Shard and begin to destroy them. Instead of one locus of hatred, there would be many. 3. Possible Objections: Objection 1: An enhanced ability to see flaws may in fact be part of Odium’s nature, but the shattering may still be done by corrupting investiture. Odium would probably be better at corrupting investiture under this theory than other Shards, because he would see the “flaws” in the magic be able to take advantage of this, twisting the investiture towards his own use. Response 1: This is likely true. However, to destroy a shard, Odium would most probably have to corrupt a large portion of their investiture (perhaps close to half) to be able to overpower them. It seems unlikely that he would be able to corrupt such a large portion of their nature, particularly if they found out and resisted. Response 2: In corrupting investiture, Odium must exert some of his power. He will thus weaken himself proportionally to how much he invests. He might, if clever, be able to use this to destroy one Shard if he outfought them. However, if he must use so much power, how can he possibly destroy two? (Which he has done once and is attempting to do again.) In attacking one Shard, Odium would leave himself vulnerable to the other, who has their investiture free and now knows how he shattered the first shard. I think the shattering must instead be something that can be swift and not readily accomplished by the other shard. Response 3: If the corrupted investiture is formed by the power of two shards, why can the other Shard not attack Odium through the same route? You say because the other shard has invested more in the world. But if Odium is investing some power in the other Shard’s magic, why can that Shard not turn the corruption against him? Response 4: Some of the suggested corruptions do not seem to be influenced by Honor. The unmade in particular do not appear to have anything honorable about them. I do not see any good reason to believe they are large chunks of Honor’s power that have been corrupted (at this time). The voidsurges DO seem to be corruptions of the Nahel bond, but this bond was first formed by Spren, who figured out how to mimic what Honor did with the Honorblades. Though I suppose it’s possible that the formation of the voidish surges was a corruption of Honor’s investiture, I’m not sure of this. Response 5: If Odium uses the corruption method, then Honor should have been unraveling ever since Odium first formed the corrupted voidlight. However, since they seem to have been around a long time and Honor seems to have shattered relatively abruptly, I do not see how they can be the weapon that did it. Objection 2: Odium names himself Passion and, although Brandon implies he is partially deceiving himself, his words and methods seem to imply that there is in fact some truth to this. Response 1: Odium does in fact feel emotion besides anger. Anger is powerful precisely in so far as it mourns the loss of what is good. He thus does experience the positive emotions he states – joy, happiness, etc. etc. – because he must first appreciate these things before he can be wrathful for their loss. He must first love innocence before he can hate evil for defiling it. His interpretation thus is in some ways closer to the truth than the interpretation that he is mere “anger,” but it also misses the mark in that he is not just raw emotion (else his emotion would not be weighted towards vengeance). Response 2: Odium is represented in Dalinar’s vision as a flame. This is similar, interestingly, to the Altar of the Saints described in Revelation, which is fed by the tears and mourning of the oppressed: “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” The altar is fueled by injustice – by passion, by weeping, by joys lost, by sorrows and fear – but it burns at the foot of the throne of God, bringing their prayers and mourning into his presence, and fuels his wrath towards the wicked. Metaphorically, I think Odium’s flame is similar. The weeping and prayers of the people, their emotions, feed his wrath. In fact, now that I think of it, the burning of glyph wards may in fact be an aspect of Vorinism that originated in the old world and once was (or perhaps still is) of Odium. Response 3: I believe Odium may be using the interpretation of himself as emotion to avoid his own fatal flaw -- the fact that he is wrath unbound by virtue. He thus interprets all the evil emotions inside himself as simply part of a vast "Passion," which of course must contain these negative emotions. In this way, he bears no guilt for anything he does that is evil and need not confront his own flaws. Response 4: Both Ruin and Odium discuss passion, and, we are told, so would other shards. I think "Passion" is probably something Brandon has used to divide shards into categories, much as with the metals in Allomancy. Ruin and Odium possess Passion as it is part of their intent (and apparently the intent of other shards), but they are not passion itself. This was originally posted in the Cosmere forum, but some people recommended that I make it into its own topic and I think it fits better in the Stormlight Forum since I am mostly discussing Odium. Original post: I welcome any criticism and particularly any insight into Brandon's comments that may be relevant to this conversation.

Can anyone think of any other names for the so-called "wisdom" shard? I'm thinking (if more associated with prudence): - Discernment - Insight - Perspicacity - Sagacity If more associated with intellect: - Ingenuity - Acumen Although its possible a more archaic word is being used, as with "Odium." - Sophia - Gnosis

My theory is that Odium's advantage and ability to shatter other shards is tied very tightly to his intent. Consider: 1. Odium's Intent Allows him to Perceive Evil and Flaws in Others Odium (at one point named “Anger”) appears to be an aspect of divine wrath. Divine wrath is not merely objectless anger or hatred, however, it is specifically hatred of evil (E.g. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, etc.) We know that Odium’s wrath is “separated from the virtues that gave it context” – so mercy, justice, and even the principles of “lex talionis” (“eye for an eye”) do not bar his anger. However, to be able to be wrathful about something, you must still have some conception of where it has gone wrong. Odium isn't just wrathful against anything and everything - his wrath has a focus. Whenever I think of Odium, I am reminded of the Demon’s Mirror from the “Snow Queen” fairy tale, described here: I think Odium’s intent makes him see both people and shards in their most negative, evil aspects. He compares them to perfection, and, in so doing, is filled with hatred towards their flaws and vices. It is this which makes him despise and hate the other shards, for he sees the ways in which they fail the people and cause misery and suffering. We see, I think, a hint of this in Odium’s conversation with Dalinar in chapter 57. Odium states that I think he is aware of how the other Shards are flawed and that this leads him to hate them. This explains both his desire to destroy them and his desire to remain unalloyed with their power, which from his perspective would be corrupting. We also see a little bit of Odium’s nature in his choice of allies: he fights with the party first injured in the desolation, the ancient Singers who were forced out of their land by humanity. He sees the evil the humans have done and he hates and despises it, but his hatred has no proportionality or mercy. He is willing to completely destroy even generations which have no knowledge of the crime and wipe them from the face of Roshar. I suspect, even should he succeed, Odium’s wrath would merely turn upon the victors (since they would have killed innocents in the process of victory). In fact, I suspect this has already happened once. I think Odium led the first desolation where the humans attacked the voidbringers, probably in response to some sort of wrong, then promptly switched sides to avenge the attacked party and punish the sins on the human side. In this way, his wrath is an example of the saying “an eye for an eye makes the world blind.” Evil begets evil and so Odium’s wrath is never satiated – he sees all the flaws and will always be supporting a twisted sort of vengeance till eternity end. 2. The Ability to See Flaws allows Odium to See Weaknesses in Shards Seeing the flaws of both mortal and Shard however, would provide Odium with a distinct advantage. It means he can see where a Shard is in conflict with their intent, or where their intent is flawed. He is aware of their Hamartia (fatal flaws). Since all of the Shards are pieces of a complete unity, they each have weaknesses that make them blind to their own particular evils – none of them are perfectly “good” or can act perfectly in align with their intent. My theory is that shattering specifically occurs when a shard is forced into a position where it acts against its own intent or else is forced to face the flaw in its own intent in a major way. In Honor’s case, I suspect he was shattered either upon breaking one of his own Oaths or upon realizing that Oaths were fundamentally flawed. (I think the Herald’s betrayal is strongly tied into this in some way and that it either forced him to go against one of his oaths or else made him realize that Odium was correct and oaths were imperfect.) Hypothetically then, any Shard forced into a position that goes against its own intent would be shattered. Preservation, for example, might be shattered by either getting its power to cause an act of great destruction, or else demonstrating that, by preserving things, it is in fact ruining them by making their natures fundamentally different. Cultivation might be shattered by either forcing it to “burn” its “gardens” or else revealing a flaw in its methods of “cultivation”. Ambition might have been shattered by forcing it into a position of subservience and so on and so forth. I don’t know enough about most of the other shards to speculate, but I think given enough information a flaw in each of their intents could be found.) If true, Odium could potentially be shattered in one of several ways: 1) Forcing him into a position where his wrath is turned inward to attack his own flaws.* 2) Forcing him to confront a being of perfect good which has no flaws. 3) Forcing him to confront one of the virtues which wrath is supposed to be associated with (i.e. mercy), something good which takes into account error/sin and forgives or heals it. * I can’t help but wonder if this hasn’t already happened to a certain degree. We know the Unmade are, at least in some respect, Shards of Odium. Perhaps he is confronting evil aspects inherent in all men (including himself) and intentionally removing these “flaws” from the Shard, spinning them off as separate evil entities and thus making himself “the Broken one”. Alternatively, they might be “distorted reflections” of the evil in either men or Shards that he uses to accomplish his attacks. Cultivation would probably be in a good position to pull something like this off, probably by guiding the people of Roshar, both Singer and human, to rally against him and reject their mutual hatred in a larger version of Dalinar’s refusal to let Odium “have his pain” (i.e. his flaw). However, if Odium were shattered, I think the result would likely be tragedy. Consider the above quote with the Demon’s Mirror. If he is shattered, Odium would become even worse, because his splinters would enter into the hearts of men, Singer, Spren, and (perhaps) Shard and begin to destroy them. Instead of one locus of hatred, there would be many. 3. Possible Objections: Objection 1: An enhanced ability to see flaws may in fact be part of Odium’s nature, but the shattering may still be done by corrupting investiture. Odium would probably be better at corrupting investiture under this theory than other Shards, because he would see the “flaws” in the magic be able to take advantage of this, twisting the investiture towards his own use. Response 1: This is likely true. However, to destroy a shard, Odium would most probably have to corrupt a large portion of their investiture (perhaps close to half) to be able to overpower them. It seems unlikely that he would be able to corrupt such a large portion of their nature, particularly if they found out and resisted. Response 2: In corrupting investiture, Odium must exert some of his power. He will thus weaken himself proportionally to how much he invests. He might, if clever, be able to use this to destroy one Shard if he outfought them. However, if he must use so much power, how can he possibly destroy two? (Which he has done once and is attempting to do again.) In attacking one Shard, Odium would leave himself vulnerable to the other, who has their investiture free and now knows how he shattered the first shard. I think the shattering must instead be something that can be swift and not readily accomplished by the other shard. Response 3: If the corrupted investiture is formed by the power of two shards, why can the other Shard not attack Odium through the same route? You say because the other shard has invested more in the world. But if Odium is investing some power in the other Shard’s magic, why can that Shard not turn the corruption against him? Response 4: Some of the suggested corruptions do not seem to be influenced by Honor. The unmade in particular do not appear to have anything honorable about them. I do not see any good reason to believe they are large chunks of Honor’s power that have been corrupted (at this time). The voidsurges DO seem to be corruptions of the Nahel bond, but this bond was first formed by Spren, who figured out how to mimic what Honor did with the Honorblades. Though I suppose it’s possible that the formation of the voidish surges was a corruption of Honor’s investiture, I’m not sure of this. Response 5: If Odium uses the corruption method, then Honor should have been unraveling ever since Odium first formed the corrupted voidlight. However, since they seem to have been around a long time and Honor seems to have shattered relatively abruptly, I do not see how they can be the weapon that did it. Objection 2: Odium names himself Passion and, although Brandon implies he is partially deceiving himself, his words and methods seem to imply that there is in fact some truth to this. Response 1: Odium does in fact feel emotion besides anger. Anger is powerful precisely in so far as it mourns the loss of what is good. He thus does experience the positive emotions he states – joy, happiness, etc. etc. – because he must first appreciate these things before he can be wrathful for their loss. He must first love innocence before he can hate evil for defiling it. His interpretation thus is in some ways closer to the truth than the interpretation that he is mere “anger,” but it also misses the mark in that he is not just raw emotion (else his emotion would not be weighted towards vengeance). Response 2: Odium is represented in Dalinar’s vision as a flame. This is similar, interestingly, to the Altar of the Saints described in Revelation, which is fed by the tears and mourning of the oppressed: “I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” The altar is fueled by injustice – by passion, by weeping, by joys lost, by sorrows and fear – but it burns at the foot of the throne of God, bringing their prayers and mourning into his presence, and fuels his wrath towards the wicked. Metaphorically, I think Odium’s flame is similar. The weeping and prayers of the people, their emotions, feed his wrath. In fact, now that I think of it, the burning of glyph wards may in fact be an aspect of Vorinism that originated in the old world and once was (or perhaps still is) of Odium. Response 3: I believe Odium may be using the interpretation of himself as emotion to avoid his own fatal flaw -- the fact that he is wrath unbound by virtue. He thus interprets all the evil emotions inside himself as simply part of a vast "Passion," which of course must contain these negative emotions. In this way, he bears no guilt for anything he does that is evil and need not confront his own flaws.