Elsecaller_17.5

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I just feel like the WoBs provided by @Underwater_Worldhopper sort of crush that theory.

I would be more inclined to believe that the Roseite was treated as uninvested if it wasnt for the fact that investiture is directly needed to sustain it even after it is formed. Is Wax not invested when simply using the minimum steel needed for steel sight since he isn't actively pushing?  

The need for investiture to maintain it proves that it is invested even after grown. I can't speak for how invested it is but I was under the impression that the roseite was still an extension of the Aether through the Aetherbound as more of a catalyst which would lend it to being highly invested even if it only requires a small amount of water / investiture to maintain. 

All that and I really don't think it would be a bad thing for the cosmere to see some more armor options that can stand up to the instakill machine that trivializes 140 hours worth of fantasy reading that is shardblades.  

It takes investiture to move it, not sustain it. And we might be reading different wobs but the one I'm seeing specifically says that zephyr spores created normal air, not invested.

Dawnsingers are just Singers who predate the arrival of humanity and Odium https://coppermind.net/wiki/Dawnsinger.

I'm going to voice the dissent. Even with purified Dor the battle goes to the shardbearer. The crystal itself doesn't seem to be invested so a Shardblade would cut it. The shard bearer then has two options. A simple lunge through the chest of the golem to twin twinsoul ends it. If twinsoul cam make a golem w ok th a deeper chest then the length of the Shardblade it will take longer, but it took an entire jar for the golem and a second to sustain it so the shardbearer just needs to lop of a limb, forcing twinsoul to replace it, like 6 times to reduce the armor to nothing.

The only way twinsoul wins is if he kills the shardbearer before they figure out what is happening, but he isn't going to have a fast win against shardplate.

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

From the quiz summary (applicable sections bolded)

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Stoneward

I Will Be There When Needed

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

Personally, I think the Blackthorn might learn harder toward Stoneward than WoK Dalinar. I also think Dalinar would not have leaned very far toward Elsecaller until Post-Oathbringer (he didn't attibute self growth until his heel-realization from reliving his returning memories).

Frankly, If Dalinar were not a Bondsmith - I'm not sure he would have become a Radiant at all. Blackthorn Dalinar probably had a small chance before Evi's death. After Evi's death, I'm not sure he was fit for any order until he was Cultivated. By then, already middle-aged, he was much more about Leadership than a typical Stoneward; too little about personal growth to be an Elsecaller - but possibly could have become a Dustbringer:

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Dustbringer

I Will Seek Self-Mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

Blackthorn Dalinar was already his own army's artillery equivalent even before he acquired Shards. His desire for control and understanding was seen as he progresses from Front-Line warrior to leading the border skirmishes. From Soldier to Tactician to Strategist, Blackthorn Dalinar's combat merged with WoK Dalinar's leadership and sense of responsibility could have led him down this path had he not visited the Nightwatcher's Valley, but gotten his alcoholism under control on his own while at the Shattered Plains (as he considers in OB Ch 114):

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He trudged through the darkness, and suddenly felt stupid. What was he doing here? Chasing a pagan superstition while the rest of the highprinces gathered to punish Gavilar’s killers? He should be at the Shattered Plains. That was where he’d change himself, where he would go back to the man he’d been before.

 

The biggest thing that makes me say he is not a Stoneward is the description of them working in teams. Dalinar is notoriously independent insisting on taking on any challenges himself, often by himself.

Though he isn't anymore, in his past he was incredibly unreliable and flighty. While that has changed, reliability is hardly a core attribute of his.

Edit: I think the biggest thing that highlights this is his refusal to even tell people his plan to deal with Odium at the end of RoW. "Don't worry about it, I'll do it by myself," is not very stoneward.

What would happen if Nightblood was wielded to kill someone who is pretty objectively not evil. Directly against his intent.

Maybe they are just incredibly virtuous. They've made mistakes, but nothing that's evil. Dedicated their lives to helping people, impacting personally the lives of 100's and making systems that help 10,000's Attentively, someone who's morally neutral, nothing that great or terrible. To take that to the extreme, they are totally innocent. Popped out of the womb 5 minutes ago.

Let's run with the last because I think it's the most solid. Someone picks up Nightblood and stabs a baby. I can thing 4 things happening.

1. It fails. Nightblood doesn't cut. Baby is fine.

2. It backfires into the wielder in spectacular fashion.

3. It works but Nightblood is seriously physically, cognitively, and/or spiritually damaged. 

4. Some combination of the above.

Thoughts on the issue?

22 hours ago, Marabout said:

Nah, Stoneward

And that is the most popular gut reaction I've seen. But, why? What makes him a Stoneward?

First let's comb through the elsecaller entry from the radiant quiz. Lots of stuff that's applicable. 
https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-ten-orders-of-knights-radiant/
Though typically scholars "the Order is open to many different types, so long as they want to improve themselves . . . They seek self-improvement and personal betterment in their lives, but aren’t limited to one specific theme or set of Ideals." That's Dalinar to a T.
Furthermore, "They have their share of scholars, and often a large number of theologians, but also attract those who are interested in leadership." Dalinar (though he would deny being a theologian) fits both of those secondary traits.
"They are good at encouraging others, but some are known to set their sights upon the things they want and then seize them." Another two check marks. "they tend to be among the best tacticians, and are logistical geniuses." Though we haven't seen him deal too much with logistics his time as highprince of war highlights his tactical genius. 
Lastly, he has already sworn the second ideal of the Elsecallers. You might be thinking "what, we don't even know what it is!" I disagree. The Elsecaller oaths are similair to the Skybreakers in pattern and we already know the core philosophy of the order. "I will reach my potential." And he swore it during the battle of Thaylen Field. "If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man."

1 minute ago, offer said:

There is both the regular matter-energy equivalent and another investiture-energy equivalence.

So the equation should be E = Mc^2 = I *k 

For some constant k.

But what about invested matter. It seems that invested matter has more fundamental energy. Could it just be E = Mc^2+I and we need a way to quantity I?

First, this isn't going to make much sense unless your caught up with the The Lost Metal Release chapters including today's. Second, I am a amateur physicist at best; I've completed a (singular) college physics class.

So Wax just invented nuclear bombs. Fun. But good old E=mc² isn't going to quite do that for us with investiture in the mix. Harmony has confirmed that we need to get an I in there somewhere. To my mind the I has to modify the m. c² is a constant and isn't going to be affected, energy is the output. The two simplest results would be

E = MI c²

or

E = M^I c²

I could also see E = MsubI C² allowing for a far more complicated relationship between M and I.

People who are smarter than me please tear this to pieces. I've put this in the cosmere spoiler area in case you want to involve RoW physics somehow.

It's been forever since I last posted, but let's go. An extension of a previous post a made way back when, now with new arguments!

So, feurchemical savatism. Impossible right? Savantism occurs when the spiritweb is overloaded with investure and feurchemy only gives you back investure you naturally had (less even because of the diminishing return problem) so theres no way to become a savant. Wrong.

There is a mechanic that allows the spiritweb to be overloaded with feurchemical investure and we are actually introduced to it all the way make in TFE. Compounding.

No before I go forward I want to state why I think this is true. Because it makes sense. Savantism is a cosmere constant. Its seen (minor SA)

The overload of power results in savantism.

I would posit we have actually seen two feurchemical savants. TLR and Miles. I'll go over Miles first. Savantism has a give and take. In our one canonical metalborn example of savantism, Spook, we see the benefit of huge increased power and the detriment of absolute reliance. Miles we see the same thing. He uses so much but never once do we see him consume gold with the express purpose of compounding. This could be an oversight, but I suspect he is just hugely efficient. His savantism allows much more power output than Sazed's x10 prediction. He also doesn't feel pain which I could argue equally is a benefit and detriment. I believe Wax says at one point (correct me if I'm wrong) that he would also just drop dead if he ever stopped tapping. Certainly a detriment. Above all else though I propose his main detriment is is delusion. Even when stripped of all his metalminds he truly believes he is invincible. Miles is anything but stupid; I don't believe he would think that without a magical effect.

TLR is next. He is theoretically a savant x33. Every power plus Atium. But it is atium savantism, if I am correct, that he definitely has. He has to do it constantly for 1000 years and every year he has to dedicate more than before. I don't think it would be possible for him to maintain without increased efficiency from savantism. Much like Miles I believe his detriment is his delusion of immortality. The man is a genius (likely due to his compounded memory and mental speed). He shouldn't have fallen into so simple a trap of being taken out by the very power who made him who he was. Investure induced madness is where he fell.

So what are your thoughts?

On 3/4/2022 at 10:34 AM, starman2995 said:

"I am a cup"
"But you could be a tulip"
"I am a cup!"

Lmao, stop trolling my posts, Eric. Is that all you do here?

20 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

May have just been the inflection in Brandon’s voice   but the ‘Kal’ seemed so forlorn makes me think he’s gone. The guys an actor. 

That's interesting, I read it, I didn't listen.

11 hours ago, Jesters Armed said:

There is this bit in the story:

" Nomad sighed.  He expected a wisecrack from Auxiliary, but the spren stayed silent as well "

I believe this supports the opinion of another poster that Auxiliary just has this "Sigzil is my somewhat mediocre squire" attitude.

But he could just be saying spren as a general term. Any cognitive entity can be referred to as a spren, and as a Rosharan native Sigzil would be likely to do that.

22 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

But no, the talk about oaths and things definitely implies Aux is a Radiant spren of some kind, probably an Honorspren but maybe an Inkspren or Reacher, because of the Skipping. I think Auxiliary as a name is interesting anyway since it literally means what Aux does (or is supposed to do) which isn't a spren naming convention I'm aware of.

What kills that for me is that Auxiliary is not an Honorspren name. It doesn't follow the same sort of pattern.

This little bit does not bode well for SA5. We might be looking at some really nasty stuff for our friends.

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

OH MY GOSH!!!!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH

@Chaos you were right I totally get why this is your favorite.

I just AHHHHH!

When I realised that Sigil had Hoid's Dawnshard I litterally screamed.

I am so hyped right now I just can't.

Apparently Shardblades can become Invisible so that's cool.

Right about what? And are y'all as confused as I am? Sigzil a full world hopper, better traveled than STORMING HOID, seems to have held and lost a Dawnshard, something happened to his spren, is Aux his spren or the remnants of the Dawnshard, how is the Spren still around if he broke his oaths, what combination of the "Torment," broken oaths, ans a pseudo-nahel bond are we dealing with!

3 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

- does Sigzil now have the same affliction as Hoid? Using weapons/fighting isn't something he seems to be able to do

- is Auxiliary a deadeye?!?! Or "revived" deadeye

Because of that first thing I don't think Auxiliary is a deadeye, certainly not from an honor spren based on the name. I'm betting he used to be/hold a Dawnshard and Aux is the remnant there of. This leaves the question of where did his spren go!

2 hours ago, Zibus said:

Alright, so Nomad/Sigzil (pretty sure its Sigzil from context), has a Torment that specifically doesn't let him hurt others. He can act in violence defensively and only as long as he specifically isn't thinking about harming those around him. Sounds pretty familiar. This quote specifically says he'd once carried a burden. Did he get a hold of/become a Dawshard? Perhaps even the same one Hoid held/was at some point?

I think he must off. Someone in the first bit of SA5 the bastard holds and loses a dawnshard!

2 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

true, though it seems more likely to me if it is a cup, for one the person's hand is aimed towards it. 

yeah, with the hand detail I think you've convinced me

2 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

urm, that looks more like a cup to me.

I can see that, but there isn't much difference in silhouette between a goblet and a tulip. And its odd placement for either.

5 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

mkay now I have to check it out and see.

Here.

6 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

don't you mean secret project number 3? number one doesn't have a flower on it.

Growing out of the rock just right of the fold of the skirt, looks like a tulip.

I just noticed this myself and havn't seen it mentioned elsewhere so here I go. Zooming in the cover for secret project 1 has a flower on it. The only cosmere world with signifigant flowers (that I can think of) is Nalthis.  That's exactly the sort of clue that Brandon would drop for us.

1 hour ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

there does seem to be an inverse relation between height in the physical realm vs the cognitive realm, so maybe deep in the "sea" of the cognitive realm, closest to the planet which it is most commonly associated with?

That doesn't seem to hold true outside of Roshar's cognitive realm. We get a good look Scadrial's in SH and whie the difference is there, it's far less extreme.

Just now, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

it is? I just looked again, apparently I misunderstood, sorry.

No worries.