Q10fanatic

My best guess right now: Vasher uses his Breath to heal Mayalaran. Maybe this happens in the 5th book, at a low point when we think Adolin is about to die?

17 hours ago, HaileyIsAWindrunner said:

 @Andy92 I completely agree! The first book was confusing, but I’m re-reading them. So hopefully I will notice things I didn’t  before!

I reread OB after the reveal of the separate personalities and the "Three" system. It shocked me how much better Shallan's chapters read knowing that she is developing/uncovering personalities. It completely changed how I considered her as a character and made her parts of OB much more enjoyable.

Dalinar should just pick a Sleepless. Can't be killed, can just shove an army of bugs at Odium's champion until they fall off the edge of Urithiru.

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Ym's spren too told their Radiant that they could make things go away with light when Nale attacked him in WoR.

Oh I'd forgotten that! I have no idea how that power is supposed to work but it seems like there is something there. Maybe they can use light to banish the Fused? Seems powerful.

I don't remember who it was but someone on the forums has a theory that Truthwatchers, as the opposite position from the Bondsmiths, may also have some Spiritual shenanigans they can use.

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Pattern also refers to inspiring others as transforming them in WoR. She isn't using the Surge of Transformation on them, just convincing them that they can change with the aid from their idealized Spiritual perfect self.

I actually think that Pattern is telling her she was using the Surge of Transformation then. However, I know that many readers agree with your take as well. 

I wonder if Hoid's re-telling of The Girl Who Looked Up may also have been an example of the Surge of Transformation, a small alteration of Shallan towards her Spiritual Ideal. That's more far-fetched since we don't know much about Yolish Lightweaving abilities.

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

I think of what you described as a Spiritual manifestation of the Lightweaver Surges, like Dalinar's use of Spiritual Adhesion. I think some Orders were just better or worse at it, just like they are at one Surge or the other.

Yes. Originally I thought of this as a type of Spritual Transformation and thought that every surge had a physical and spiritual version. However there is a WoB that shows he doesn't agree with the term "Spiritual Transformation" and it even could mean that there is no such thing as inspirational transformation. 

 

14 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
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Zmann966

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

 

4 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Lightweavers can be as skilled with Transformation as Elsecallers

Interesting! So Elsecallers are generally better but Lightweavers can be that good, presumably with more practice. Maybe I am putting too much into Shallan's personal struggles with it then.

Lightweavers & the Surge of Transformation

 

Summary: Lightweavers use an alternative form of the Transformation surge. While they may be capable of using the traditional version that Soulcaster fabrials and Elsecallers perform, they have an additional form of the surge. Further, while it is hard to spot in the moment, we can recognize this Transformation when: 1. We see a character act differently from how they were introduced to us; and 2. That character unconsciously refers back to an interaction with a Lightweaver; and 3. That interaction served as the catalyst for the change in their behavior. TLDR – Lightweavers can use Transformation to “inspire” people to change in the way the Lightweaver thinks is best.

 

Origin of the theory: https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/86250-can-shallan-make-people-more-receptive-to-healing/

 

Surges shared between orders: Surgebinders share their surges with another Order. However, we have mixed evidence as to whether each Order uses the surge in the same way.

 

On one hand, we know that Windrunners and Skybreakers share the surge of Gravitation. We also know that they use the surge functionally identically. On the other hand, we know that Windrunners and Bondsmiths share the surge of Adhesion. While Dalinar is able to use Adhesion to stick things together like the Windrunners do, he also uses Spiritual adhesion to speak new languages. He also uses some form of Adhesion to heal inanimate objects. There is no indication that Windrunners are able to do these things.

 

We know that Elsecallers and Lightweavers share the surge of Transformation. We know that Jasnah is exceptionally skilled at using this surge. While we do not know of any other Elsecallers to compare her to, she far outstrips what the practiced Soulcasters are able to do, even though these people have trained for years or decades. For example, there is no indication that the Alethi have ever considered using Soulcasters to fight yet Jasnah is nearly unstoppable in battle. It may be that Elsecallers have an affinity for Soulcasting, which Lightweavers don’t have. (Perhaps this is their Resonance?) We have been led to believe that Shallan has struggled with this surge, comically at times. (See: Stick.) However, all we know is that Shallan struggles with soulcasting.

 

Distinction between the different expressions of Transformation: I believe that Shallan (or Lightweavers in general) may continue to struggle with the traditional use of Transformation, i.e. Soulcasting. Instead, I believe that Lightweavers excel at inspirational Transformation which is what we see happen when Shallan is drawing people and which we [maybe?] also see when Hoid is telling stories 1-on-1 with someone, or any other time that we see Lightweavers inspire others to act in a way that (before that moment) was out of character for them.

 

Three potential weaknesses in this theory: First, in my opinion the use of inspirational Transformation is a different ability from the passive, inherent ability to make people feel better, which Brandon has ascribed to both Shallan and to Tien. However, initially I thought those abilities were the same thing. My biggest reason for coming up with that distinction is that I could not explain how a proto-radiant like Tien would be able to actually use a surge. If Brandon confirms (or someone is able to prove) that they are the same ability, then I don’t think we can call this ability a Surge. I don’t think that proto-radiants (different from squires) can use surges.

 

Second, it is not clear whether stormlight is always used in these situations where I think Shallan is using inspirational Transformation. I think any use of the Surges must require stormlight. In these situations where it is unclear, I think Brandon is simply not mentioning the stormlight or ascribing the loss of stormlight to her use of Illumination as a way of misdirecting the audience. For example, I think this is what actually happens when Shallan confronts Vathah’s deserters in Chapter 20 of WoR. She is using lightweaving but she is also using inspirational transformation, which strongly pushes them towards the more noble decision.

 

Quasi-third weakness – The ability to change someone’s character or personality would be exceptionally powerful over the long-term. If Shallan, or any Lightweaver, were to realize what they were doing, the ability would have to be extremely limited. There would have to be rules in place, narratively speaking, or things could get out of hand. This would also be an extremely subtle power. I think this is a power that Shallan uses unconsciously, but it could also be that I am seeing something when there is nothing. Hoid may be the exception that proves the rule. We already know that he works extremely subtly and, conceivably, could use this benignly and with enough conscious skill to avoid problems. However, I could just be convincing myself that something is there.

 

With that said, I feel confident that Spiritual Transformation is real and that Lightweavers can use this much more easily and effectively than soul-casting.

 

Relevant WoBs:

 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
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Play/Pause

Zmann966

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-Physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Zmann966

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense? 

 

 

Wetlander

The bit with the bandits out there, and the deserters, and she [Shallan] convinces them to all go... Was she doing Lightweaving? Was she doing Transformation? Was she doing some combination?

Brandon Sanderson

She was... You have seen what she was doing before, done by another character.

 

Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

Footnote: This is a follow-up to this exchange.
Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

Relevant passage from the text:

·      Chapter 20 of WoR:

“They listened,” Pattern said, buzzing from beside her. “You changed them.”

…

“You are lies and truth,” Pattern said softly. “They transform.” “What does that mean?” “You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

“Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t soulcast anyone.”

“Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.”

 

So that is my theory on how Shallan can be so persuasive and inspirational. Please let me know your thoughts!

Does Szeth get to use Nightblood? If so, I think he has to be on top.

Otherwise:

• Dalinar
• Jasnah
• Shallan
• Kaladin
• Szeth
• Renarin
• Malata
• Teft
• Lift

17 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Laral is Kaladin's childhood friend.  The fact that he hasn't had any vaguely sexual thoughts about her yet pretty strongly indicates he will never regard her as anything more than a sister/friend.

I don't think this is correct, or at least that's not how I interpreted it. In the flashback where he spars with the bigger boy, Brandon writes, in Kaladin's voice, "His thoughts about her had been complicated lately" and then teenage Kal thinks about how he understands what's happening to his body in puberty because of his medical studies. In another flashback, where he goes to Roshone's manor with his father, he sees Laral in the kitchens and is taken aback by how beautiful she is.

I think that's enough to confidently say that Kaladin was attracted to her when they were young. I think they both had a major crush on each other and Kaladin was clearly trying to work through that when he met in OB.

Given Brandon's comments on Reddit, I'm not sure we'll see him in a relationship in RoW but I think there is a narrative foundation for one between him and Laral.

43 minutes ago, Karger said:

He is totally a middle aged ardent who wants the Vorin church back in power.

Restares will be revealed as Kadash. Confirmed!

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Possibly the reason people take issue with Lirin is not so much his beliefs, but how he chooses to enforce those beliefs upon Kaladin

I know that a big part of my problem with Lirin is how he has let this poison his relationship with Kaladin. 

I also want to push back on the idea that Lirin's views on the current war are acceptable because he doesn't really know what is going on or what the real risk is to humanity. This is a storming DESOLATION! The voidbringers of ancient legend have returned. Their entire culture revolves around worshipping the Heralds that SAVED HUMANITY from the voidbringers in dozens or hundreds of wars that were so brutal humanity was nearly wiped out! Every single Vorin should be able to put this together. Lirin should not require verbal confirmation of the danger everyone is in. He may demand it because he doesn't want to know the truth, but that doesn't excuse his ignorance.

Shallan prediction: She wakes up in a SoH lair and we find out she is being taken to Restares for interrogation.

13 hours ago, Starla said:

He also said in the last live signing that he hired a new beta reader with Dissociative Identity Disorder to help with Shallan's arc in Rhythm of War, so it sounds like we'll be digging into it more. I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

That's really cool. I love how seriously he takes his audience and his characters, to treat these issues with the care and realism that they deserve.

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

We know for sure that Abrasion and Gravitation weren't accessible, but there's reason to believe that it extends further than that. First of all, Syl can't manifest as a shardblade. And secondly, the other Edgedancer (Godeki? Anyone know the spelling?) seems to have been unable to draw in stormlight. 

I assumed the fabrial was shutting down or limiting the use of stormlight, regardless of the specific surge or ability. I don't think Jasnah would have been able to elsecall if she'd been there.

Huh. That's an interesting catch that Skar never swore on screen. I still lean towards Skar being a WR, but that may be my own familiarity bias. I would hope that we get a Stoneward soon. It sounds like we are starting to get a lot more new radiants, so it doesn't make sense that we would wait for Taln for the Stonewards to start showing up.

24 minutes ago, Vambram said:

Although Shallan is not one of my favorite characters, I've always found the Cognitive Realm and Shadesmar very, very interesting. I am REALLY looking forward to reading the Shadesmar chapters in Rhythm of War.

My hope is that Shallan will be much better in this book. We already have some indications that Kaladin will be struggling emotionally. I don't think Brandon would overwhelm us with two main characters struggling like that.

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

Can it be that my cherished hope that Azure will bond Captain Notum will come true? Did her sharing of awakened blade technology somehow affect the proceedings? If the honorspren can have shardblades of their own now and fight the Fused and voidspren in Shadesmar, they might be less inclined to bond. I can't see how they could mass-prdouce them, though, unless the process became much more efficient in the interim and Azure was prepared to sacrifice a chunk of her investiture to make them.  In any case, here is to Shallan and Adolin  running into her again and her transitioning from a cameo  to a tertiary recurring character.

Ooh, another Radiant/Awakener would be cool!

I feel like Laral could call Kaladin out on his feelings towards Lighteyes. And there’s definitely passion between them. I could ship it.

Didn't Skar say "We protect those who cannot protect themselves" when Kaladin arrived at the end of OB? I always read that as him revealing to Kaladin that they've sworn the 2nd oath.

It's so delicious that he catches that Fused monologuing and takes out the entire support squad without his own weapon.

11 minutes ago, Singer said:

There is a lot of nuance to the conversation of pacifism vs militancy, it certainly isn't black and white. For some, dominance is a hill they are willing to die on. The status quo is the hill they'll die on. Lirin is not one of them.

Lirin is definitely a nuanced character. I don't understand him. Pacifism is one of his guiding principles, but apparently so is "stay in town with people that mistreat you when you can leave and better support your family at any time." I'm genuinely curious how Lirin and his principles will react when faced with violence and war. What happens if someone physically threatens Hesina? Would he tackle them? Strike them? Would he commit violence to buy his family time to escape? Would he use a regrowth fabrial to heal a soldier and ask them to commit violence?

We've seen Kaladin wrestle with the issue of violence vs. protection for three books now. We've never seen Lirin wrestle with them and I desperately want to. 

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

Lirin would have no problem healing a soldier who intended to keep fighting.  He would also not have any problem doing so to an enemy soldier.  I personally would keep him around if he was near my army because he reduces total casualties.

I guess my point is, we don't know what he's going to do in the next second after "death had come to Hearthstone." 

Lirin is an unknown and his pacifism makes him an unreliable ally for anyone that might need him in an unexpected combat situation. He is willing to risk his life to help others if it does not directly lead to more violence. I think his philosophy is unhelpful in a warzone, but I don't believe he qualifies as a coward in our world. He would be denounced as a coward by the vast majority of Alethi.

21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that I need to point out that Honor is hardly an unbiased source of information about Odium. He may be unable to outright lie, but his attitude may shine through.

If we're going to both-sides Honor, then I'm not sure how you can have faith in anything any character says. Also, do you agree that the stakes of this war do not include extinction and destruction of the planet?