Q10fanatic

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Gavilar is not OK with the way his wife is looking at Dalinar. Personally and professionally.

Even profound jealousy does not excuse how he acted, especially since she had previously made clear to him that there had been no infidelity. Besides, he doesn't seem to care if she did cheat, only that it would affect his standing at court. Nothing he says indicates that he cares for her, or her affection. It's a cold and calculated anger, not a fit of jealously. This means his every action was deliberate.

19 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Do we know that killing the Stormfather and shattering Cultivation would wipe out all life on Roshar? 

The final vision that Dalinar sees in WoK is Honor's warning of what will happen if Odium wins: the entire planet crumbling into dust and disappearing into blackness.

18 minutes ago, agrabes said:

As for Gavilar/Navani - the reason he doesn't say so is because they're in a rocky marriage.  Communication has broken down.  Also - I don't think it would have forestalled the whole argument even if he had said it.  She would have still been mad at him for shutting her out of his exciting secret plans and making her sacrifice her own goals in order to fulfill all of his more boring responsibilities for no good reason, or at least none he's willing to tell her.  This kind of lack of communication is SUPER common in real marriages.  It's easy for people to take the ones closest to them for granted.

I guess this comes down to each person's interpretation of the text. I saw this as far more vicious and emotionally violent than a simple lack of communication. You don't have to be overflowing with love and gratitude to show appreciation for someone's well-done job. You do have to be overflowing with contempt and anger to belittle them the way Gavilar did. That's more & worse than a mere lack of communication. That was physical intimidation. If you read that differently, that's your interpretation and valid but I don't think most people read it that way.

57 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So Moash just happened to decide to kill Roshone on the day The Mink happens to be there? He just happens to show up the first time a new fabrial is used? And he chooses to confront Kaladin and then chooses to surrender without fighting?

I think you are ascribing too much information to the Odium side here. You are assuming that they knew about Kaladin and the Mink far enough in advance to coordinate some elaborate trap but that trap was too inept/ad hoc to capture Kaladin.

I think this is new anti-KR tech, and a Fused that is trying to intercept generic KRs. The Fused had just gotten warning that this specific WR was in the area and he was on high alert. There is nothing indicating that they knew about the Mink. Actually, I don't think it's clear that Kaladin knew about the Mink either.

Moash doesn't really make sense to me. He wasn't really working with the one Fused to capture the KRs. The Fused were keeping prisoners in the cellar. It makes no sense to do that if your ally with a shardblade is planning to kill them. To me, the killing of the prisoners suggests that Moash and this Fused aren't working together right now. I don't actually think that Moash is trying to sweet talk his way back into Urithiru, but he has some plan that requires him to be brought in by the KRs or by Kaladin in particular.

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Which he doesn't.

Sure, but I don't know how much longer his ignorance can be excused. As I said, there was the constant threat of death for all humans in Alethkar. He has to have acknowledged that this is a new Desolation, which everyone in Vorin culture knows were wars to the death. I'll be curious to see how he handles this as much as Kaladin does.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, things do not make sense here. We are missing crucial information

1. They had a Fused, a new fabrial and Moash there. They were looking for Kaladin specifically. It is blindingly obvious that the Fused knew of the operation.

2. It is also obvious to the Fused that the KRs would deduce that Moash was not there by accident

3. What mission could Moash have that he can carry out although the KRs must suspect that he is a trap?

4. Why is that mission worth the loss of a Fused, teaching the KRs how to fight a new type of Fused and the loss of a "dampening fabrial"?

Hmm, so you think the Fused was a sacrifice? That it wasn't actually intended to defeat Kaladin?

I sort of assumed that Moash was there separate from the Fused. If they are on one mission, then I agree this makes no sense. The loss of the fabrial is too high.

If Moash was there by coincidence, or by some separate mission, then I can see him "surrendering" to any KR in order to get passage to Urithiru. Maybe he's being sent to get Ash and Taln? I think Moash doesn't care about avoiding suspicion. He's functionally a dark Windrunner. He needs to learn where to go or where his target is from the good guys, then he'll bug out and kill someone we all love.

25 minutes ago, agrabes said:

There's a difference between being a pacificist and wanting to fight only when it's meaningful.  Personally, I would have said the Herdazians should have either submitted or fled to Urithiru where they could join the Radiants and fight in meaningful battles.

Who decides what is meaningful? Lirin? I suspect that the Herdazian fighters have a different view. I suspect some of the refugees agreed with the fighting, with the idea of defending their homeland and cultural traditions. 

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't get the sense from chapters released so far that the humans of Hearthstone are suffering under the singers' rule.  It seems like life would have been better for the Herdazians if they had simply surrendered and lived under the rule of the singers.

I strongly disagree with this. The humans are now being treated roughly like the Parshmen used to be treated. Perhaps marginally better, but still somewhere between a permanent underclass and slaves. The threat of instant death from Fused or high-ranking listeners is everywhere for the conquered humans. They know their work, their supplies, and their crops go to the benefit of the Fused, who are waging a war of extinction against the humans. Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, as he showed to Dalinar. Lirin's philosophy only makes sense because he does not understand the true stakes of the conflict.

9 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

Lirin is a coward

Lirin is an extremist and a pacifist. I already didn't really like him and this POV isn't helping. Lirin says it doesn't matter who rules, humans or Singers. This is darn close to Moash's own beliefs about the conflict.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• Well, the obvious question first. What is Moash planning?
• The non-obvious but screemingly important question second - How did they know? Who betrayed the mission? Or is this futuresight?
• And why is Kaladin wearing his own face while Shallan is there to camouflage him?
• Who is this new Edgedancer? Did I get the name right - Godeki?
• Was that Fused using the Surge of Transportation or is that something else?
• What are the consequences to Kaladin's family and Laral? The Fused will investigate. He really cannot let them stay.
• Did I hear this correctly - Rlain is quarter master?

1. This screams an assassination attempt or an attempt to retrieve the Thrill from Urithiru.

2. Malata/Spark? 

3. I assumed he was going to make contact with the resistance in the villagers, maybe to extract the Herdazian general?

4. This is the first I've heard of him. Sounds like he's not on Kaladin's level, but at least as competent as Lift.

5. I assume that was some form of Transportation.

6. Depending on the fallout, the resistance in Hearthstone may not have been discovered. The Fused were hunting Kaladin, not the resistance. Of course, for all we know Roshone was an important figure in the local resistance.

7. I thought he said Leyton, the former apprentice armorer in Bridge 4.

6 minutes ago, Kesamijr said:

I thought Aesudan died in OB from Yelig-nar?

Odium told Amaram that Yelig-Nar consumed her.

At this point, I will assume almost all of Bridge 4 (including the new girl, can't remember her name) are at the 2nd Oath. Probably several more as well. Squires could be more than 100 at this point. I think exponential growth is a thing for Windrunners.

It wouldn't shock me if Gaz and Vathah have attracted cryptics. We also know about the new Lightweaver, Stargyle.

We know that there is a new Edgedancer Godeki, but I would expect to have several more. It doesn't make sense to have two Edgedancers on one mission unless you already have enough to risk some redundance.

I fully expect that Navani will be our standard-issue Willshaper, to contrast with Venli's POV.

I do not expect to get any Elsecallers, just because of Jasnah's comment (in OB?) that Ivory is the only one of his kind that trusts humans.

We know that the Herdazian general is a Dustbringer, right? Maybe he has some squires? Maybe a few more of those?

There's the Stump who may have a bigger role. I expect a few more Truthwatchers to pop up among the scholars/radiants/stormwardens.

16 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

There's also the WOBs about shardplate regrowth tug-of-war, especially the one that states that if someone other than the shardplate owner were able to regrow a glove from a fragment of that glove, then the corresponding glove of the owner's shardplate would disintegrate. That points to there being a functional tipping point where the 2 cannot coexist as separate entities. This implies that cognitively the glove is itself a unitary entity.

To me, this suggests that there is only one entity (the armor) and it can never be in two places at once. So if the glove is in Kholinar, then it can't also be in Urithiru even if the rest of the armor is there. The Stormlight fuels or strengthens the Connection between the pieces of the armor. Given enough Stormlight, you can summon the armor to join your glove or vice versa. If the pieces were all distinct entities, then everyone would have mismatched armor. I think Unitary Armor provides a realmatic reason for the armor to stay together over millennia.

Also, that's an amazing WOB. Hadn't seen that before.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Why?  Only the blades are around.  Plate is not relevant.

If we assume that dead-plate has deadeyed cousin-spren in Shadesmar, that seems relevant to a conversation about deadeyes and the nature of deadeyes.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think they spend time around humans or humans with plate. We also know that Syl can't tell Kaladin certainy things(like how to make a blade)

Yes, but the Shadesmar spren were all familiar with deadeyes. If there is a cousin-spren counterpart to deadeyes, I think that would have come up. Syl might be bound but the other spren in Shadesmar could have mentioned something.

I think that's my hangup with the theory, I don't understand how cousin-deadeyes could be hidden. Wouldn't that be similar to animal cruelty in the eyes of the radiant spren?

I really like this idea. It's coherent and builds on mechanics we've seen in-world (the deadeyes). I think there's a good chance this is actually how it works.

I have two critiques or questions:

1. If there are cognitive corpses of cousin-spren going around Shadesmar, why didn't any of the spren in Shadesmar mention this before? Even Syl's observation that the armor feels content should have been discussed when Capt. Ico is talking about Deadeyes with Kaladin, it is entirely too relevant to be avoided. "This defines my society's relationship to humans, so we feel very strongly about it. I can't begrudge you using my father as a weapon, he's too useful even if he hates it. Of course, the other spren in a related transformation don't seem to mind so don't worry about the armor." Or the Honorspren Captain, when he's amazed by the appearance of windspren, should have said "I've never seen windspren on this side unless they're already in armor form."

2. Why does there have to be a 1:1 correlation between specific cousin-spren and pieces of armor? That makes me think of the bridge men, absorbing blows and dying to protect the lighteyes. Besides the reference to the "bodies" is there anything that suggests specific spren are assigned to specific parts of the armor?

Personally, I think it makes more sense for the cousin-spren to Transform into armor and then have a single cognitive/spiritual identity as the armor. I think this theory solves the two questions I have. Individual spren bodies are not destroyed in combat as the spren are now bound up in the cognitive identity of the armor, Transformed from many beings into one. When a piece of armor is destroyed, there is no change in the cognitive aspect of the armor. It's still just the single entity of the armor, not a collection of cognitive entities. As stormlight is added to the armor (or the knight), that power goes to regrowing the physical armor but the spren are all still there. No need to kill or remove the original spren from the armor's identity. No need to add new spren from somewhere or reduce the population of cousin spren over time.

Sorry, I thought you were saying you had figured out which Unmade corresponds to which Radiant order.

On 7/10/2020 at 2:29 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Each Unmade can be mapped (with some fuzziness, of course) to a KR order, with the exception of Bondsmiths.

I thought that the Fuzed generally map to the KR orders. How do you line the Unmade up with them?

44 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also a bunch of time dilation happens so she could have consumed to at the first everstorm and still been around when meeting Elhokar.

Oh true, I forgot about the weird time dilation stuff. Do we even know what caused that? Is that a specific Unmade ability or do we think that the presence of 3 unmade was enough to create that effect, like the Stormfather does with Syl in the storm?

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

But I don't think she used it much.  The only time we see her try she gets destroyed.

I always assumed that she swallowed the stone just before Elhokar walked in. I never thought it was like a (MB) 

My impression was that as soon as you eat it, Yelig-nar starts consuming you.

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Aesudan must have bonded him for weeks at least.

Bonding, for Yelig-Nar, only begins when you eat the smokestone. We don't know what happens when you just hang out with the stone. Maybe he corrupts you?

I really want to see Nightblood take on an Unmade. Plus some realmatically aware commentary from Vasher or Hoid or someone.

Like: Szeth walks up to Ashert'marn, pokes it with Nightblood. Venli (from a safe distance) explains exactly what she sees, a la Battle of Thaylen Field. I think that would be amazing.

31 minutes ago, Isilel said:

It is widely believed  that Odium will change Vessels in book 5 and I was hard-pressed to envision how having some newb acsend to it wouldn't severely undercut the sense of danger in the back half. Also, having the Heralds be the focus of the back half in such a situation seemed a very odd decision to me, since all this history should have become largely irrelevant. But Ishar as Odium? A man who already knows so much and wielded such power? That would be scary and exciting. Brilliant!

You know, I hadn't even thought about the focus on the Heralds in the back half. That's a good point.

I've really disregarded Ishar as a character before now, I think because he's never been on camera. But this info dump makes me think that Ishar is continually being brought up for some reason. Maybe we'll finally get a pov and we'll start to see what all the fuss is about.

37 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not sure that Dalinar's side has anyone better then Kaladin in open combat except maybe Szeth.

Adolin could be a possibility, especially if he wakes up Maya.

Jasnah, if given sufficient stormlight, is basically unstoppable 1v1.

I assume Shallan, as a master Lightweaver, would be similarly dangerous to Jasnah; stealth kills still count.

Vasher could get cute and use his Breaths trick.

All of these assume sufficient growth over the last two books.

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

On a separate note I like how "Bondsmith Did It!" answers a ton of our questions. Likely, Ishar did all the things Syl rattled off with the help of the Dawnshard *people boo* (I know, I know!) that binds all creatures voidish and mortal per WoK ch. 36 epigraph.

I actually have a real problem with this. We were told, by the Stormfather I think, that Honor created the Oathpact and the Heralds. We were told that the tragic flaw in the plan was Honor's inability to see that humans would eventually break their word, due to be blinded by the shard's Intent. Ishar has no such excuse. If Ishar did this, then our entire understanding of the early conflict is completely upended. Did Ishar lie to Honor? Fool Honor? This was done before Desolations, Ishar and the other Heralds were not mad yet. Was the Oathpact intended to fail? That goes against every in-world piece of information we have.

Also, how does Ishar have this amount of power? We are talking about TLR-reshaping-Scadrial levels of power, and over a longer period of time. Are we to believe that the Dawnshards are simply the Cosmere equivalent to Sa-angreal? I always imagined them to be tools that did one specific really big thing, often with terrible side effects for the world. 

Also, why don't Syl and the Stormfather agree on this key fact? Who performed the defining act of the war against Odium? If Syl is right, then I think the God-King of Tukar is being set up as the Big Bad of the second half of the series.

This is the second interlude that goes out of its way to mention Rock's daughter, Cord. I'm going to go out on a limb and say she's important to the story, maybe even a radiant in the back 5.

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally would say that Kaladin's arc in WoR is his Supreme Ordeal.  He has to confront his enemies(in this case his physiological ones) and by learning the lesson they teach him is able to continue gaining his Reward(interestingly that moment is often called Seizing The Sword).

I need to read up on the Hero's Journey.