Brightness Jencee

OK...totally out in left field headcannon here...Maybe Edgli's game is to make another Dawnshard that can DESTROY Odium, and Nightblood is that attempt. For whatever reason, she couldn't make a Dawnshard on her own so she created ma magic system based on what was needed to create one. She then invested her people with breath so they could begin figuring out how to use commands and awakening. Periodically, she would identify someone with the acumen to do what she needed and would Return them when they died filling them with a significant amount of investiture (she Returned other people as well to mask her true plan) so they would have enough to create the framework needed to make a new Dawnshard if they figured it out. the early Returned seemed to do a lot more stuff than the ones we see in Warbreaker. When the Five Scholars started to get together and really figure things out, she somehow started dropping hints as to what she needed...probably through Shashara as she figured out the final Command. When they all got together to create Nightblood, Edgli added something (there is WOB somewhere stating that something weird/unexpected happened in Nightblood's creation), and Kaboom...a new "Dawnshard"....or not(Voidshard?). I don't think it went as Edgli expected either. Maybe Shashara had some sort of malevolence in her Intent when she gave the command that she had hidden from everyone or something. Anyway, what they actually got wasn't exactly a new Dawnshard, but something on the same power level, but with full sapience and  the only limitation being the perspective of its wielder (I think the real Dawnshards have limitations and safeguards, but with a few loopholes that were exploited, with Odium's guidance, that led to the destruction of Ashyn). Destroying at the Spiritual level may another distinction of Nightblood, but I'm not sure. Anyway, the Five Scholars didn't understand the full import of what they had done until Shashara used Nightblood at the battle of Twilight Falls. Shashara thought it was amazing and Vasher was utterly horrified and, I suspect, realized that what happened was only a tiny fraction of what Nightblood could do. Vasher ended having to kill Shashara to keep more Nightbloods from being made( she really wanted to make more) because Only she knew her exact intent and visualization when she gave the Command. The fact that anyone can use Nightblood to destroy whatever they want makes him absolutely terrifying to everyone in every realm. 

ok, Im stopping now.

Everything you said and this...

“Ha!” she said. “You have been tricked, god! I am Hualinam’lunanaki’akilu, the daughter of Numuhukumakiaki’aialunamor, the Fal’ala’liki’nor, he who drew the Bow of Hours at the dawn of the new millennium, heralding the years of change! If you were to kill me, you would be violating the ancient pact of the Seven Peaks, and so must now forfeit the battle!”

WHAT?????

Rysn's experiences at the end sound very much like she has reached at least the third heightening... This made me wonder if Vasher brought it from Nalthis. I can't remember the timeline of when we think he came, though. This also made me wonder... Could Hoid be a dawnshard instead of simply holding breath? Is that why the 17th Shard is after him and why Odium would destroy him? Too much for my brain!!! 

@Chaos and all you other Shardcasters, I can't wait for your Shardcast episode on this!!!!!

On 7/28/2019 at 1:15 AM, Invocation said:

Plus, this WOB seems to imply that there were the three races on Yolen that were present but nobody from off-world. 

Huh, I had always assumed Ati was Selish due to his Aonic name. This WOB throws that in the trash. Oh well.

I totally get the simple explanation and agree....but it would be really cool if the way they break things involves manipulating reality, and since the spren seem to possibly do that...

I just read the Szeth paintball competition chapter in OB and noticed the description of the Highspren.

"What were those two spren floating nearby, shaped as small slits in the air? They separated the sky, like wounds in skin, exposing a black field full of stars. When they moved, the substance of reality bent around them."

This makes me wonder if fifth ideal Skybreakers can use division to create a "break" in reality...a place that temporarily exists outside the three realms. When they "become the law," maybe that includes laws of nature. They could literally pull someone outside of reality to deal with them. Just a thought. Or they can literally affect reality around them in some way.

Since we're talking about shardplate, I have a question too. When Kaladin had his dramatic moment and got his blade, it was soon after revealed that Syl could be whatever Kaladin  needed her to be... We saw blade, spear, dagger, and shield, I think. Because of this, I have wondered if plate could be similar and what we saw in the Dalinar and Venli vision was actually his plate, just in a different form. Is the fourth ideal bit for all orders or just some? Could plate be flexible like spren blades, changing to meet whatever type of protection the radiant needs?

@Karger I wonder if the speculation about dragons can from the description of the Iriali people having golden, almost metallic looking, hair and skin that even has a golden sheen under the right light. I'm not personally on board with the Dragon idea, but do like the idea that they could have come from Yolen. Their own religion states that Roshar is the fourth world they have lived on. With their capital being the City of Shadows, I do wonder if they have any special abilities we haven't seen. 

Their "golden" description reminds me a little of how Elantrian's are "silvery."

8 hours ago, Chromium Compounder said:

Interesting points, but he’s currently a Windrunner squire.  I considered the possibility that he could actually be squired to shallan and none of us know it, but we see him fly at the battle of Thaylenah.

This is exactly why I had never considered it before, but I thought I heard a WOB somewhere that said a squire of one order could actually bond a spren of a different order and switch. I'll have to look it up.

Found it.

Storm Cellar

Do squires always bond the spren of their Knight's order? Or can they attract a different type of spren?

Also, was it normal for someone to serve their whole life as a squire?

Brandon Sanderson

They can attract a different spren. 

It was indeed normal, depending on the order and the person.  

3 hours ago, Lunamor said:

Imagine Rock with two gods on his shoulders- he’d try and bow to both shoulders at once!

I so want to see this!!!!

@Wyndlerunner I'm totally down with with that. I don't know enough about Willshapers.

After reading Rock's chapter again, I'm starting to think he might end up being a Lightweaver rather than a Windrunner. He is a culinary artist and he seems to have the same effect on other people that Shallan and Tien have/had. Bridge Four will become a mixed-order unit.

Vacuum/clean the floor...

Windrunner-sticks all of the furniture to the walls and ceiling first then puts a reverse lashing on the vacuum to pull in the dirt (only it starts to pull in other stuff too)

Skybreaker-reads the vacuum instruction manual then follows it to the letter.

Dustbringer-blows up the house so the floor won't need to be vacuumed.

Edgedancer-simply heals the floor to its clean spiritual ideal.

Truthwatcher-foresees all the kids running across the floor in muddy shoes, so just leaves it as is.

Lightweaver-Lightweaves a clean floor. Who has time for vacuuming anyway?

Elscaller-Transports all the dirt into Shadesmar or Soulcasts it to air.

Willshaper-the floor needs to be vacuumed?

Stoneward-loosens the molecular bonds of the floorboards just enough to let the dirt fall through and then re-solidifies them.

Bondsmith-helps the Windrunner stick the furniture to the walls and ceiling then fine tunes his lashings to pull only the dirt into the vacuum.

Can some Knights Radiant come and clean my house please?

@TheGirlWhoLookedUp I think I might name it Stormstrider after the giant spren in the highstorm.  

@Numuhuku Nice! The Ryshadium are definitely gigantic, however I do think that their "spren bond"(for lack of a better term) is as much responsible for their ability to carry a person in shardplate as their size. I like the idea of the Friesian look scaled up 120% or so.

I just finished listening to Rock's chapter in OB and noticed some things I hadn't picked up on before. This is mostly because a Shardcast I watched talked about human parshendi hybrids and that horneaters were one example of those. All of a sudden things in this chapter (and elsewhere) made sense. The Horneaters' Singer heritage is why they can see into the cognitive realm. Rock mentions being closer to the cognitive realm and being able to see spren in their entirety, not just the part that appears in the physical realm. He also mentions, when it is quiet and he focuses, that he can faintly hear the rhythms (he calls it something else, but it's obvious it's the rhythms).

This has made me wonder about some of the other mixed race humans on Roshar and what unique traits they might have (besides hard fingernails and teeth). Any thoughts? The the ones I can think of are Horneaters (Singer blood), Herdazians (Singer blood), Rirans (Iriali blood), and Nataans (Amian blood). Are there any others?

My pictures didn't post.

Hee they are.

Friesian horses are are how I picture Ryshadium when I read the books. ( pictures below)

Those look GOOD!!!!

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

When a Radiant dies, or the bond is released, the sprens Spiritual Aspect reverts to normal and they need to return to the Cognitive Realm or their mind will once again degrade... But if the bond is abruptly severed through the breaking of oaths, then the connection to their Radiant is "ripped out" leaving them in a state that they are supposed to have a Physical Aspect, but lacking the actual parts to do so.

When the blade forms, without the Connection to the Physical that allows it, that missing piece must be somehow provided, and it's taken from the only place the spren has to give it. Their mind. Just as a human in the Cognitive fully still has a Physical Aspect that allows them to transition back to the Physical Realm, the spren would still be broken while dismissed.

I’ve been scouring the Coppermind and agree with your idea here. A few things jumped out at me to go along with it....

The first is regarding the formation of the Nahel bond itself. In the Song of Spren it says:

“The spren betrayed us, it's often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can't provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.” 

To me this implies that the humans’ strong Connection to the physical realm is why the the Nahel bond is possible with them in a way not possible with the Singers.  “Shadesmar is the natural habitat of the spren, and is where their true form can be seen.” (Coppermind) They are fully Connected to the Cognitive and, in their natural state, appear to have only a cognitive aspect and a spiritual aspect. The “smartest spren” have such a strong Connection in Shadesmar that they have become sapient and able to interact with their world as humans do in the physical realm. I read somewhere that it is a person’s Connection to their world that enables them to understand it and function within it in a meaningful may. We see Dalinar’s Bondsmith ability manipulate Connection so he can understand other languages and the Parshmen’s Connection to their local land/people causing them to act as if they were alway from that place when their minds were returned. This Connection is what enables the “mind” to exist. I’m guessing, that when a Nahel bond is formed, this Connection, though the bond, is transferred from the cognitive to the physical realm. Both Syl and Pattern mention that the transition to the physical realm was very difficult. They enter it is a cognitive being that can now interact with the physical realm, but as a baby that has to learn and grow. Because their Connection moved out of the cognitive realm, they lost all of their memories and understanding associated with it. These are still part of their Identity, however so they would slowly regain them as they grew in their Connection and understanding of the physical realm through the Nahel bond. My personal thought is that if the bond was severed at this time, the spren would “die” in the sense that it would revert to it’s “baby” form forever in the physical realm where it's Connection now primarily resides. It would no longer exist  as a sapient being in either realm. They have slowly been regaining some Connection to the cognitive as their memories return, but not enough to return there as a sapient being.

When the Spren’s Connection to the Physical realm has developed enough through the progression of oaths, they will gain a physical aspect and manifest as a Shardblade. The spren now, for the first time, has 3 aspects: Cognitive (their natural state with some Connection to Shadesmar regained), Physical (the Shardblade), and Spiritual (Connection, Identity, etc.). They have essentially become a totally new kind of spren.

This brings us to the second part, what happens when the Radiant breaks his oath. Well, if (emphasize “if”) the above is correct, then, @Calderis, your “ripping out of the mind” makes total sense because the Connection gained through the Radiant that enabled the spren to gain sapience in the physical realm would be ripped away leaving them mindless. The Connection part of their spiritweb would be in tatters causing them to “shatter,” in a way into their three aspects. Their physical aspect would become a Shardblade (because of it’s Identity), stuck in the physical realm by whatever remnants of Connection are left to it, but essentially dead because there is no longer a mind or anything with it. The cognitive aspect would become a deadeye in Shadesmar due to a remnant of Connection that it had regained there, but not enough to truly exist there. It maintains a similar appearance to its original form there because of Identity. And finally, the tattered remnants of the spiritweb gives each of the other aspects it’s Identity and somehow manages to keep them just enough Connected that the cognitive aspect can find its physical aspect’s correlating location in the physical realm.The later discovery of adding a gemstone strengthened that Connection just enough to enable the blade to transport to the cognitive realm when not in use. The 10 heartbeats is the time to Connect and make the transition back to the physical realm when summoned. 

Lastly, to heal a deadeye, having the original Radiant would be ideal because he has the “exact” missing piece of the puzzle. However, since that isn’t possible, here is my best guess. First, a couple of quotes from the Coppermind:

“A female Stoneward possessed what appears to be a fabrial constructed from a large topaz and heliodor that was able to "regrow" and repair injuries.[16] It manipulated the Surge of Growth.”

“The Surgebinder can even reverse death with Regrowth; a body that has bled out or a soul that has been severed with a Shardblade can be healed with Regrowth and continue to function as if it has never been damaged.[38] However, once the soul leaves the body and reaches the afterlife, it is impossible for the Surgebinder to revive the person.[40]”

“Gold healing works by aligning an individual's Physical aspect to their ideal self as recorded in their Spiritual aspect. This does not prevent them from aging or certain genetic diseases as those are considered part of the ideal.[6]”

“Damage to the soul, such as that caused by Hemalurgy, can be healed by Bloodmakers.[9] A Bloodmaker would also be able to heal a wound from a Shardblade,[10] or being withered by a shade.[11]”

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

He broke his oaths, and she died. Yes. She says it herself. 

"I was only as dead as your oaths."

So Kaladin didn’t actually “do” anything to revive her other than return to his oath. She revived, had a yelling match with the Stormfather, and then returned to Kaladin and got him to say his second oath. Am I getting that right? If this is the case, then it seems that all a person would have to do to revive a deadeye is speak the oaths to create a new connection(they would, of course, have to know that their blade was actually a spren and which kind it was so they could speak the proper oaths). I thought there was a WoB, though, that said it was way more complicated than this and nearly impossible without the original Radiant that broke the oath.

When a spren transitions into the physical realm to bond a Radiant, how much is left in the cognitive? When Syl is with Kaladin flitting around and sitting on his shoulder, is she still partially in the cognitive? I mean, if I were in the cognitive and near Kaladin, would I see his flame and some sort of Syl-ish thing close by it or a whole, fully cognizant Syl that I could talk to? Is what Kaladin sees as Syl in the physical realm just a small part like other spren or is Syl actually now in the physical realm? Is she only fully in the physical when she manifests as a blade? I guess what I'm trying to wrap my head around is why deadeyes even exist in the cognitive. If manifesting as a blade puts them entirely in the physical, where does the deadeye in the cognitive come from? Were they partially in the cognitive when the recreance happened so they were basically ripped in half leaving a mindless deadeye in the cognitive and a magical blade in the physical? This whole thing is confusing.

Thanks for the WoB about imitating honorblades. That was helpful.

@Calderis So do you think that Syl became a deadeye when Kaladin agreed to help kill Elhokar and was then easily revived because he was her original bonded Radiant?  Or was she not fully dead because he didn’t intentionally break his oaths but was just confused about what was the right thing to do? Is intention necessary to truly break an oath? It seems like it would be or radiants could have accidentally killed their spren.

Also, why blades? It seems like there should be shardspears, shard halberds, sharddaggers, etc. as well since the spren could manifest in any form their Radiant wanted. Why did the spren all specifically manifest as swords at the recreance? Was that also an intention of the Radiants or does it have something to do with whatever was ripped out of the spren when it “died?”

There is a curious similarity between the Nightform stanza of the song of secrets and Renarin's (alleged) voidbinding version of illumination.

@Argent Thanks. Man, I was really hoping it was some obscure line about voidbinding that I had missed. Trying to research this raises more questions than answers.

You have insightful comments on Shardcast, btw. I've learned a lot watching those.

I have two questions related to this chart and thread.

1. What "page" is Argent referring to in that WOB earlier?

2. The void orders inside the ruby that are in the same spot as Bondsmith and Truthwatcher on the surgebinding chart don't have lines connecting them to surges. Are those two different than the rest? Are they manipulating something else? 

Ok, one more question... Ruby's essence is spark, and there are lightning bolts(giant sparks) going from the ruby to each of the void  order symbols. Could this possibly have something to do with how BAM supplied voidlight to the Singers?

@calderis, the coppermind article mentions Identity being involved (along with Connection) in the Parshendi changing forms. I guess this would be a different kind of shape shifting? Also, when Moash meets Leshwi for the first time after he had killed her, he notices that, while her body was different than before, the color patterns on her skin were the same. Does that mean that Prshendi color patterns are related to Identity? These spiritual attributes are a little confusing.

The voidbinding chart looks very similar to the map of Shadesmar in style while the surgbinding chart looks more like the Roshar map. Since Shadesmar is a strangely inverted twisted replica of the physical realm, this has made me wonder if voidbinding is more focused in the cognitive realm. Surgebinding sometimes uses the cognitive realm, but for the purpose of affecting the physical realm. What if voidbinding effects happen in the cognitive realm rather than the physical. Maybe Renarin’s failed attempts at illusions aren’t failing, just happening in the cognitive realm where they can’t be seen. I’ve been scouring the Shadesmar chapters in OB looking for anything suspicious, but it’s hard find anything when you don’t really know what your looking for.