FirstSelector

First and foremost, is blatantly false. "Conservation of energy" is a loaded statement that changes its definition depending on what system you are working with. In general relativity, "conservation of energy" is the statement that the metric does not depend on time. Note that in our universe, this is not the case and so there is no strict notion of energy conservation in this way. In quantum mechanics, energy is conserved if and only if the Hamiltonian is time-independent. However, even with a time-dependent Hamiltonian, everything still works fine. Quantum mechanics can easily accommodate systems where you pump energy into the system. As the most basic example, when you turn on a light to illuminate a surface, the atoms making up the surface have a constant influx of energy and then re-radiate. There is no notion of "conservation of energy" here yet we can easily describe this using time-dependent perturbation theory. If you would like to learn more about quantum mechanics, I highly recommend Griiffiths' book on the subject. He covers all of this very nicely. What about time bubbles? Also easy, I considered posting an independent theory about how these could work. The idea is simple - we have a spherically symmetric distortion to the metric that looks like a plateau. Outside and inside, you would look down at your wristwatch and see time move normally. But if you try to observe events happening through the bubble, you have to take into account the curvature at the bubbles edge and this would account for the time-speed discrepancy. In fact, this is very similar to what happens as someone approaches the event horizon of a black hole (assuming there are no firewalls). The observer outside sees time flow slower and slower for the person that falls in to the black hole. You would need to tweak the metric a bit (unfortunately, I am not a relativist and there can't whip up a quick solution) but it accomplishes the same thing. Such examples of funky metrics exist, and in fact one of the easiest ways to do FTL does something similar to a time bubble. In our universe, such things may not be physically realizable without huge energy costs, but if you can get around that we would have FTL. If you want to learn more about general relativity, Sean Carroll has an excellent book. I admit, however, that understanding the Alcubierre metric is very difficult. This is not physics. There are no known models for human consciousness from first principles. For all we know, Brandon could be writing non-fiction about this part. As such, this does not fall under the scope of my original post, which was to make sense out of physical laws based on Realmatic interactions. We know all things have three components - Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. When a Windrunner infuses an area with the intention of sticking things down, it could be that he has to specifically set it up so that he can be affected by it. Otherwise, it "knows" in some fashion not to stick him. An you would be surprised at how even a small pressure differential (and thus small temperature change) will create a proper vaccuum. When you put food in tupperware and seal the lid, you create a small vacuum. But you don't see a noticeable difference in temperature because the change is so tiny. Finally, Brandon tries very hard to make sure that his magic systems follow a set of rules. Recall that he studied chemistry for a while in college and specifically has Peter Ahlstrom investigate the physicality of his ideas. He goes to great lengths to ensure that his works are self-consistent, which is one of the things that makes his worlds so great. This ensures that his worlds feel very "real" because we have some intuition for how things should behave. And you're right, he probably doesn't have strict numbers on how much power you need to accomplish things, but the beauty is that you could sit down and calculate without having to make serious changes to the magic.

With the recent releases from WoR has come much confusion on the nature of gravity on Roshar. This is not a new discussion, but I'm starting a new thread because my response was getting too long. As a brief introduction, there are several WoB that seem to imply that gravity has a Spiritual component. However, he has also claimed that the laws of physics work like they do in our universe. Reconciling these two ideas has lead to a great deal of confusion. In what follows, I'm going to use an important device from theoretical physics - the "toy model." These are simple models that attempt to explain the bulk of phenomenon by necessarily being incomplete. Their ultimate incorrectness (as they are too simple) is overshadowed by their usefulness, as grasping the fundamental ideas is often more important than explaining all of the nuances. As such, I am not claiming any of these models are correct, but rather I am using them to illustrate the ideas. We seek to answer two separate but distinct questions: "how" the universe behaves and "why" the universe behaves in a particular way. Despite popular opinion, physics does not claim to answer many of the "why"-type questions. Why is physics the same in all inertial reference frames? Why does the metric tensor obey Einstein's equation? Why do quantum mechanical observables correspond to Hermetian operators? However, postulating that these things are true in our universe answers many other "why" questions that are really "how" questions in disguise. Why does a superconductor expel all magnetic fields? Well, we observe them to do so, and so the question is how that arises from knowing the basic physics. Remember that this entire field is a observation-driven discipline and we only seek to model it using mathematics. I am going to make one concrete conjecture: The physical laws in the cosmere are the result of interactions between Realms. Without going too deep into general relativity, we will simply claim that "gravity" is the phenomenon of massive objects feeling an attractive force between them. Even in our universe, it it not known why this occurs (i.e why does mass bend spacetime). "Why" is not really relevant for predicting gravitational phenomenon - experiments show us that general relativity works. However, the in the cosmere, there is some underlying reason due to Spiritual interactions that this is the case. We can then rephrase the question of "why do masses attract?" as "how do Spiritual interactions generate attractive forces between masses?" The "why" question then becomes "why do Spiritual interactions happen in a particular way" which is easily answered as "Brandon set it up that way." Magic fits into this paradigm nicely. Let's look at two examples: The gravity Surge allows one to modify the direction and strength of the gravitational interaction on a massive object. Since we know that gravity is the result of some Spiritual interaction, we then understand the gravity Surge as modifying the Spiritual properties of an object which results in a change how the effective mass-mass interaction works. If we want to get slightly more technical, we could consider the following model. Imagine that gravity works as it does on earth - an effective force due to the curvature of the metric in spacetime. The metric becomes curved due to the presence of matter and energy. A quick and dirty model of the gravity Surge would involve using energy (in the form of Stormlight) to locally bend the metric tensor resulting in a change of the local gravitational field. And if the curvature of spacetime due to matter/energy is mediated through the Spiritual realm (say, energy causes the Spiritual realm to "bulge" locally and distort the Physical realm) then everything works precisely as expected. The atmospheric pressure Surge can be understood in a similar toy model. Ideal gases (and their interacting counterparts) shrink in volume when they are cooled down. The atmospheric pressure Surge then could work in the following way: the energy contained in the Stormlight is used to remove thermal energy from the air (i.e. make it colder) and thus drastically reduce the air pressure on a given surface. Then, the pressure from the atmosphere and friction would cause an object to be "stuck," much in the same way plungers can stick to a wall. To understand how this is implemented on Roshar, we might claim that the ideal gas law is a consequence of Spiritual energy investment. Heating up a gas stores energy in its Spiritual component, and this causes it to take up more room in the Physical realm. So now we understand "how" the ideal gas law works, as opposed to "why." What is the takeaway from all of this? Physics attempts to model the universe using mathematics. Whwne explaining phenomenon, we don't often consider "why" a given physical law is true. The statement that "physics is the same in the cosmere as it is on earth" means that the phenomenon obey the same sorts of mathematical relations. Why those relations are true is another question entirely. On earth, we don't know why physics is the same in all inertial reference frames. In the cosmere, there might be some Spiritual or Cognitive reason that this is the case. That doesn't, however, change the nature of the mathematical equations that describe phenomenon. What we want to understand is how the physical laws from our universe arise from the nature of the cosmere. Thanks for reading! Note: Understanding "why" laws work in our universe is actually a very interesting question when things go wrong. This is how we develop new and more complicated theories for the underlying physical laws. However, all this does is change current "why" for "how" and generate new "why." So I do not want to imply that the "why" questions are useless, only that in the cosmere this sequence terminates at "Brandon said so." Source: I'm a theoretical physicist.

A commonly held theory is that Darkness' (who is presumed to be the corrupted Herald with attribute "Justice," Nalan) partner is Kalak, as his second-guessing and jumpiness is the corrupted attribute "Resolute".

If you agree with Satsuoni's model, one might imagine that during a highstorm, one creates a Spiritual energy potential well at some location. The energy from the highstorm falls in to this well (like water into pothole) and just sits there. Back in the Physical realm, this energy is leaking over and causing crazy rain and wind, which is now localized. Eventually the potential well will dissipate and the energy would keep moving westward and the storm would disperse. One could then imagine moving the physical location of the potential well around, causing the localized part of the storm to move.

I would check out the God Beyond on the Coppermind - there is some evidence to suggest that there was a force or group opposing Adonalsium that is still around which is related to this. So while Odium is certainly the big bad on Roshar (as he likely needs to kill everyone to recover his Investment in them), there may be a bigger bad that opposes the Shards as a whole.

While not unreasonable, the larkin used by Darkness appeared to be kept in a starved state so as to suck the Stormlight out of lift, implying it must be alive. The paperweight appears to be head. I think it just a symbol of the king's wealth - he has one of the most valuable things on Roshar as a paperweight.

What if the way that the Parshendi found out about Gavilar's plan was because Elhokar slipped and said something? Then, hearing something very concerning, the Parshendi confront Gavilar and he reveals whatever his plan is. This confirms the Parshendi's fears and they assassinate Gavilar. For this to have worked, though, Elhokar would have had to see the Parshendi's reaction and known that was what drove them to kill his father. If indeed it is related to Surgebinding and the Way of Kings, then Dalinar's newfound obsession would be doubly worrying to him. I realize this is a bit of a stretch, but there are still so many questions about the night of the assassination that it could be feasible.

Then, imagine when the Knights Radiant give up their oaths, whatever magic was holding up Urithiru suddenly failed... and it fell. And landed in the middle of a giant plain, causing huge cracks in the ground. Kaladin notices that the Shattered Plains appeared as though something heavy had been dropped in the middle, so a flying (then suddenly not) Urithiru would explain this.

I like this idea a lot, in fact, I would not be surprised to learn that this division stratiates all Nahel spren into two camps. The honorspren - living embodiments of oaths - would be very upset with the Knights Radiant and humanity in general following the Recreance. After such an event, perhaps only the most dire of circumstances could convince the honorspren (and other likeminded ones) to cross over. In the other camp, we have Cryptics. I'm sure they were similarly angry when the Knights Radiant stepped down, but given their nature (liespren) I don't think it is an unreasonable leap to claim that they would come around eventually. They see the danger from Odium and feel that even in the face of the Recreance it is worthwhile to start having new Surgebinders.

Thanks for the support, Macen! DocHoliday, there is a big difference - there's WoB that Splintering a Shard takes considerable time even after the Shardholder is dead. In this case, Tanavast could have died, Honor started splintering, and Jezrien picked up the largest piece. In the language of your analogy, the glass pane breaks on the edges, but there is still a large piece left in the center. Quantumharmonix, even though he gave up the Oathpact, Jezrien would have almost certainly known of the dangers of Honor's power being let loose - look at Sel. In fact, if we consider that Jezrien wanted to believe that the Oathpact would still hold with just Talenel and if we assume that the breaking of the Oathpact is what allowed Odium to kill Tanavast, then perhaps he realized his mistake and worked to correct it.

ccstat, I really like your idea. Just like ones physical form is taken and vaporized when one picks up a Shard in the Physical realm, perhaps taking up a Shard in the Cognitive realm does the same for one's consciousness. However, this leaves one's body behind with probably only limited mental capacity.

hoser, that's a really good point. In fact, with that and Argent's very good trio of objections I would like to amend my theory below. My only counterargument to the "drooling" line is that the Emuli people hold the Heralds in very high regard. It seems to me that both the vizier and Darkness seem to apply the line "may he lead in wisdom" to Jezrien in much the same way (In the Wheel of Time) the Seanchan would add "may she live forever" when referencing the Empress. I do agree with you - perhaps Darkness was turning the phrase around to reference (in his mind) the incredibly foolish decision to let Lift go free. Then, with those objections in mind, I can actually revise the last third of the theory. In particular, being "Broken" would simply refer to many Desolations worth of torture and then the pain of betraying a friend and giving up the Oathpact. Kalak (in the prelude) even refers to Jezrien as such: As for Jezrien's status? I would call him Shard-level power, as it would be equivalent to a Shard who has simply Invested a great deal into his world. In this case, it wasn't by choice. Thanks to everyone who read and commented!

This idea has been kicking around in my head for a while, but I was a bit unsure if I had sufficient factual evidence to back it up. I'm sure there are people who have contributed to this idea (via comments or threads), so if you have prior art on this stuff let me know and I'll give credit. NOTE: Realm-wide spoilers abound (in particular, for Elantris and Mistborn) Theory: Jezrien picked up the remaining pieces of Honor after Tanavast died. He is the Stormfather and the face in the highstorms. However, the long years of immortality combined with other factors has rendered his mind unhinged, hence the name "The Broken One." But wait, you say - Odium is clearly The Broken One! Let us look at the source of this quote: We know from WoB that there were three primary Shards on Roshar. With the new info from Lift and Brandon we can now analyze this quote. * Honor - Tanavast died and his power was let loose in some way (see below). * Cultivation - Her Shardholder no longer cares about the humans on Roshar. * Odium - At the time of the quote, Rayse was on his home planet Braize. What happened to Honor's power? Well, there was something similar to what happened when Leras, Skai, and Aona died (see here for more): From this, we learn that the uncontrolled power of a Shard is extremely dangerous. The power "builds up," as we saw from Raoden's POV's in Elantris. On Sel, there was some measure of relief in the form of Seons/Skaze, but it was not enough and Shadesmar there is overwhelmed in some way. But cruically, we learn about what one person can do to wrangle the power, even if it is just a small part. There is also WoB that Splintering a Shard is a long process. Finally, there is a WoB somewhere (it elludes me at the moment) that connects the highstorms and the mists from Mistborn, with Brandon stating there is a term we have not yet discovered to describe them. We know that the mists resulted from Leras sacrificing his mind, and therefore control over Preservation, to imprision Ruin. Let's put the pieces together. Jezrien is known as the Stormfather, and as Jasnah points out in WoR Ch 3, the mythology surrounding him seems to be independent of the notions of Honor and Cultivation. There is something intelligent that Kaladin interacts with in the highstorms (the enormous face). And, by the combination of spren and something else, the power that was held by Tanavast is kept in check on Roshar. From these facts (and Brandon's almost hint about Kelsier), I propose that Jezrien actually picked up some large part of the Shard Honor when Tanavast died. EDIT: With the great comments below, I have a better explanation for what is going on in the following paragraphs in a response below. The immediately preceeding statement was an idea I have had for a long time, but there was an important snag - Darkness (almost certainly Nalan) references Jezrien as "drooling." This seems to imply that Jezrien has suffered some severe mental trauma that has left him weak-minded. How can we reconile these two pictures? I propose that Jezrien wasn't able to take full control of the Shard pieces or there was something about his mental damage (due to 4500 years or so of immortality) that rendered him weak-minded. I would love to back this up with data, but we have never seen someone running around with only half of a Shard. I think the current state is that most of Jezrien's mind is occupied with Honor, leaving behind his body with only a token consciousnes behind. His body hasn't been "vaporized" by Honor because he doesn't command the whole Shard, just a large chunk of it. This is where the name "The Broken One" comes in - Jezrien (as everyone would interact with him) is a drooling, mentally weak mess. And the part of his mind that is wrangling Honor still has scars from the Desolations and then abandoning the Oathpact, so it's not doing well either. Why hasn't Odium come back to finish the job? His modus operandi is to be the only Shard at his power level - something which the mostly-Splintered Honor could not hope to match. Thus, Odium would be content to just leave Jezrien scrambling to pick up whatever pieces he can, laughing as the latter's mental demons haunt him. There is one last important quote, from the face in the storm itself. He says "Odium reigns," and many people take this to be the reason that Odium is "The Broken One." However, we can now interpret this as Odium having the upper hand on Roshar. The constant infighting, the failure to follow Nohadon's example, and so on could be construed as a failure of Honor and Cultivation to lead their world. And in doing so, they have let Odium take control. In conclusion, I propose that Jezrien picked up a large chunk of the Shard Honor before it fractured completely. This is the source of the name Stormfather, since the part of the physical embodiment of Honor is the highstorms. Cultivation and Odium are not currently involved with events on Roshar. Jezrien was termed "The Broken One" due to the mental state of his physical body and what issues he still has from the Desolations and immortality. EDIT: New conclusion: I propose that Jezrien picked up a large chunk of the Shard Honor before it fractured completely. This is the source of the name Stormfather, since the part of the physical embodiment of Honor is the highstorms. Cultivation and Odium are not currently involved with events on Roshar. Jezrien was termed "The Broken One" due to his mental health at the end of the cycle of Desolations and subsequent abandoning of the Oathpact. Sorry for the long post, I wanted to be sure that I was clear on all of my points. Thanks for reading!

I agree wholeheartedly Malim, and I wrote up my similar ideas here. In particular, we have the same idea of the "death" of a "living idea" - one where the spren flits around mindlessly.

Don't forget Kaladin's brief ride on the storm in Ch 46 of WoK: From his vantage point, this would mean that something very heavy was dropped in the middle of the plains, like a hammerblow. Furthermore, Kaladin notices that there is a large plateau at the center. I would imagine this is the remains of whatever fell and shattered the Plains. One might imagine that if Urithiru existed only in the Cognitive Realm (which I find unlikely) and was suddenly pulled back into the Physical Realm, perhaps distances didn't line up right and it materialized several thousand feet above where it should be. I am personally in favor of the idea that Urithiru was a flying city reachable by portals and it was knocked out of the sky by Odium's forces or the Knights abandoning their oaths. However, one might consider ways of utilizing a pressure surge to cause the same effects - simply bring a high pressure column of air down in the middle. Or you might consider binding a huge section in the middle of the plains upwards with gravity, then let it fall back down. Whatever the calamity, whatever city or civilization that existed on what is now the Shattered Plains was almost certainly wiped out by some large force suddenly coming to bear on the center of the Plains.

Recall that Ruin could power Allomancy, had he wished. It could just be that Szeth's sDNA is that required for a Windrunner (i.e. gives him pressure and gravity as surges) but he is getting some external source as opposed to a spren bond. If Szeth does indeed have Jezrien's blade which gives him access to Surgebinding without a spren, it could be that Odium is giving him additional power which contributes to his irrational hated.

One's actions cannot be the only determining factor for becoming a Surgebinder - there must be some sort of sDNA that determines which two of ten magic systems you will have access to.

I almost hesitate to call this a full-fledged theory, so instead we'll go with theoretical musing. Main idea: The disbanding of the Knights Radiant is the betrayal spoke of by the spren. This caused the "death" of their corresponding Nahel spren. In the new material released, we learn from Shallan's perspective that mankind betrayed the spren in ancient times. This causes the spren to be hesitant around Jasnah, and some number of spren may have died in the process. Such an event would very likely have a physical-world component, and based on the way Jasnah describes it the event must have been catastrophic. We then consider several such events that may be construed as betrayal: 1) The Heralds abandoning the Oathpact: I find this unlikely since there has been no evidence that the Heralds have any dependent relationship with the spren, espescially at the moment that they walked away. 2) The Knights Radiant disband: This is by far my favorite option because it explains the notion of "death." If we use the definition that spren are living ideas, then to abandon an idea and start acting against it would be its "death." In this case, I find it likely that the betrayal coincides with the Knights abandoning their oaths. However, if the Knights Radiant really did begin to slip before their downfall, it could have been a slow process. We now have a better understanding of the relationship of spren and sentient beings - the latter provide concepts that the spren use to forge their world. Since the Knights Radiant must truly believe in what they are doing and their actions must reflect that, one could only guess at the destruction caused by a huge number of people all giving up at the same time. We note that even Syl talked to Kaladin about giving up their bond and its effect on her. There is a counterargument here, in that the spren would likely have known that Surgebinding can cause a Desolation (in some way that has yet to be revealed). The Knights may have been pushed to step down (from the Heralds, spren or both) but the spren would have known and approved ahead of time. 3) The corruption of Vorin theology: This one is a little out on a limb, but it can be cast as a betrayal and we have not discussed this as much. I personally like the idea that the Sunmaker changed Vorin theology, and my claim is that Old Vorinism was correct. When mankind goes from one belief system to a slightly different one, this would cause all sorts of changes in the Cognitive realm. This could be construed by the spren as being a mighty betrayal to what is true. Finally, what does it mean for an idea to die? Ideas don't "die" in the sense that they cease to exist, but they can be abandoned by people and ignored. I claim this is the state Kaladin fould Syl in originally - a vauge notion of being honorable without any real personality or memories. Syl was bonded to one of the Knights that forake her oaths, causing Syl to lose everything that distinguished her, i. e. is effectively dead. What about Wyndle? Some of his quotes support the idea that there is a processs spren undergo to become bonding spren, which involves manifesting partially in the Physical realm and losing memories. However, I think he is a new bonding spren, as opposed to Syl who had done the job before. As such, we cannot use his quotes to explain Syl's state when Kaladin first started meeting her. In conclusion, I claim that the Knights Radiant breaking their oaths and giving up on their Ideals is the betrayal spoken about by the spren which led to the "death" of many active bonding spren.

I agree with your notion concerning the spren and how the original Surgebinders accessed their power. In particular, I am more and more convinced that the Heralds themselves have splinters of Honor - just as Honor gave them access to power, the spren found a way to give everyone else power. I am less enthusiastic about the nature of the Dawnsingers. In particular, I would want to hear about the Dawnchant and Dawnshards; they share a linguistic root, and so I find it likely the are related. A completely unresearched idea that I have considered is that the Parshendi are connected here - they sing a great deal. Maybe these spren have influenced them in some complicated way.

I have been kicking around the idea (but haven't written up a fleshed-out theory) that each of the Heralds has a Splinter of Honor, i.e. a nontrivially large piece of the Shard. Each of them is "tuned" in some way to grant them two Surges, explaining how they were able to Surgebind without spren. This would explain the WoB about how Honor was surprised at the relation between the spren and the Knights Radiant, because it mirrored Honor's interaction with the Heralds. Anyway, if Honor is Splintered (to what extent is another question entirely), the Heralds might be the largest repositories of the power left and this may have done strange things to their minds in the way you describe. There are some supporting ideas for this which come from Warbreaker:

I am also very seriously thinking about going, and perhaps bringing a friend or two. I just want to check though - we're not going to have one of those camp-out-for-a-week-beforehand things going on, right? I could definitely see coming a day or two beforehand, but I can't spend a week camping out in a line.

If we accept the idea that "Damnation" is either on another planet, or at the very least far away from the main story, then it seems reasonable that Taln would have traveled through Shadesmar to get to Kholinar. Why he picked that particular city is up for discussion (though I think the fact that Nohadon was based there is significant). In any case, we know that language has a very large geographical component, and so maybe Taln was able to learn the langauge through some Shadesmar trickery when he exited, and he picked Alethi because that was the dominant language in his destination. Perhaps, had he arrived in another city, he would have walked out speaking a totally different language.

Here's the relevant quote for Urithiru smashing into the Shattered Plains, when Kaladin is riding the storm (Ch 46 of WoK): This plus the information from Eshonai's chapter seems to imply that the thing that smashed down was a city. Granted, it could have been some other large object that smashed into the city below, but there is another quote I can't find that implies walking to Urithiru was impossible.

What if the "Dawnshards" are ten Splinters of Honor that were originally given to the Heralds? But maybe this power came with the various requirements (returning to Damnation, etc) and by abandoning those the Heralds lost access to their power. That is to say, they are still Invested in some sense, but unable to access or use the power. This would explain any lack of binding spren since they wield the power directly without having to conform to the system specifics, just as Why, then, does Tanavast in the vision seem to imply all of them were gone? Well, perhaps he thought that with the fall of the Knights Radiant and the general loss of Surgebinding in the populace that Taln was doomed to stay (with his Dawnshard) in Damnation for all eternity. Then, the nine fallen Heralds and Taln would all be unavailable for whatever Honor feared Odium had up his sleeve. Of course, if Nalan (Darkness, almost certainly) and Shalash have access to some of their powers, one has to wonder exactly how much they have lost. Maybe they lost the greater part of their powers when they abandoned the Oathpact and the slow decay of the rest as they slip more and more has driven more than a few of them mad.

It's worth noting that we are reading the English translation of what is presumably an Alethi conversation - has anyone considered looking at how these words are spelled in the Alethi alphabet? It isn't bijective to english and perhaps some of these extraneous consanants go away. EDIT: What if it's not even as simple as that? Given the similarity of the Alethi characters, one might consider that the phonetic spelling of these two words could, with slight tweaking, be an entirely other set of characters. This could be some very clever wordplay by Hoid.