FirstSelector

I will admit it does work suspciously well, and I wanted to address your point about the timing. It is, I believe, well established that the Knights Radiant were founded after the cycle of Desolations started. However, Surgebinders certainly existed for the Knights Radiant. I would like to suggest that somehow, the existence of Surgebinding practiced on a large scale is the key, not the formal ordering provided by the Knights Radiant. Now, I will conceed that there is support for the idea (references elude me at this time) that Nohadon somehow changed the Nahel bond simultaneously with writing The Way of Kings. By doing so, he may have accidentally altered the role of Surgebinders in the Oathpact, and that would undermine this theory. However, given the evidence from the interludes, I believe that Surgebinding itself is the real danger, not necessarily the existence of an structured group of Surgebinders.

Natans, thanks for that reference! I only finished the Shardhunt (which, incidentally, I think every should do if they haven't) after writing this up, so it was a pleasant surprise to see that.

First and foremost, I have been away from the forums and the cosmere in general for some time, so my sincere apologies if I am repeating ideas and theories without correctly citing them. That being said, I have had a lot of catching up to do and so hopefully I can start to contribute usefully. I was reading various theories and I started to wonder if the history of Roshar was even less clear-cut than we might have otherwise assumed. In particular, agrooster proposed a theory in which humans are not the native species to Roshar. In particular, the theory claims that due to ecological differences (chitaneous vs mamallian), Parshendi are the native sentient species and the history of wars with humans was in fact the "Desolations." This theory appeals to me since there was a recent quote (which I cannot place now) that essentially said "other nearby planets have influenced Rosharing mythology," specifically referring to the Tranquiline Halls. Note that Rosharians believe they were brought to Roshar from this place. I then did a cursory poking-about (which almost certainly missed things, and my apologies to others who have written on this subject) and noticed this theory which almost assuredly shows that the dark sphere has an Odium-corrupted spren trapped in it. I think there is very little wiggle-room available with what we know to contest this idea. So, with credit to those theorists and my continued apologies to those I have missed, I propose the following idea: The Parshendi killed Gavilar because he proposed to reinstate the Knights Radiant. Let us start with some founding arguments: Sadeas claims that Dalinar is starting to act like Gavilar in his final days. We attribute this to The Way of Kings, which we know is basically a blueprint for the Knights Radiant. Perhaps Gavilar leapt the chasm that Dalinar required Tanvast to throw him across, namely the importance of the Knights Radiant. A key point here is not specifically the Knights themselves, but instead the existence of such an order. I make the following claim: the existence of the Knights Radiant is somehow tied to the Oathpact. Even if the KR were not extant when the original Oathpact was laid down, it could be that their existence somehow fullfilled a clause that prevented further Desolations. This assumption is somewhat justified, since there hasn't been a Desolation since the KR disbanded and might provide insight as to why they abandoned their orders. "If it walks like a god and quacks like a god, it's a god." The Parshendi "gods," as they were, are not Shard-level powers, but instead a group of entities that can force the Parshendi to their will. Suppose, for contradiction, that the Parshendi are aware of the Shards of Adonalsium. They would then know that the reconstitution of Honor (or another Shard) is a very complicated process. Thus, they cannot mean literally that Gavilar will bring back their gods. We then assume that they mean gods in the sense I indicated. I agree with agrooster that the Parshendi culture is very much more like the ideals of Honor than that of the humans. This would suggest that they were originally created by Honor, or at the very least shaped by his existence. This is not to say that Honor was more protective of the Parshendi as compared to humans. Note that the Parshendi took credit for killing Gavilar, knowing full well that they would be hunted to the ends of the earth by the Alethi (see below). So how does this all tie together? Supposing what I and others have proposed is true, events proceed in the following way: Roshar (with its highstorms) is settled by Honor, and then there are Parshendi. Some time later, either due to Honor, Odium, or some other force, humans arrive on Roshar. Odium notices, and in an attempt to be odius, corrupts some spren. These corrupted spren then bond with Parshendi (possibly unilaterally) and cause them to go on mass murderous rampages against the humans. Honor is really not too pleased with this turn of events, and strikes a deal somehow with the Heralds, Odium, and possibly additional parties. They forge some divine agreement that regulates these Desolations in ways we don't yet fully understand. In particular, I claim that Honor (or his executor) gets the Knights Radiant/Heralds if and only if Odium gets to corrupt Parshendi (Voidbringers)/ten leaders of Voidbinders. Now, this didn't work out so well for any of the parties involved. In particular, the Heralds have fallen from grace and Tanavast is dead. However, Odium hasn't been able to outright destroy the world, and his Voidbinders are gone from all but legend. What if this is the direct consequence of the loss of the Knights Radiant? Perhaps the Oathpact prohibits the existence of Voidbringers (i.e. corrupted Parshendi) if there are no equivalent opposing forces? (Note that this system still admits an "Odium wins" solution, through infighting on the humans side and some unspecified looming threat.) The Parshendi realize this, of course, and kill Gavilar to prevent him from accidentally giving Odium free reign to take over their people again. They are willing to die for their cause en masse because the alternative is so much worse. Note that any theory for why the Parshendi killed Gavilar must satisfy this criterion, since they knew the consequences of the assassination. As a final aside, this might shed some light on what Natan is proposed (in the above theory) to be running around killing Surgebinders. The realization by any number of parties that Surgebinding is only forgotten, not lost, would prompt them to recreate the Knights Radiant in some guise. It might only be a school of medicine that utilizes Growth, but this might satisfy whatever requirement that the Oathpact demands to allow Voidbringers. Closing thoughts: This would make for a somewhat interesting dynamic in the story - to prevent the creation of new Voidbinders, the Parshendi have driven the Alethi to war and accidentally prompted the reinstatement of the Knights Radiant. In maybe the cruelest twist of fate I can imagine, what if Odium himself motivated Gavilar to The Way of Kings so that he could attempt to reinstate the KR and thus let the Voidbringers wash over the world. My apologies for the rambling writing and any unattributed theories - feel free to let me know so that I can credit your ideas. Thanks for reading!

I would like to propose an extension to this idea - the people who recieved the original visions founded Vorinism. We have reason to believe that the visions are not particular on the vocation of the people they choose (but I think require that the person live honorably). From WoK Ch 66: If several people, all of whom experience these visions, were to get together and found a system of belief based on the ideas presented therein, it very well might have grown into Vorinism.

What an excellent find! It seems reasonable that there are ten fundamental surges, and from them flow three separate magic systems. This is obviously similar to the magic on Scadrial - 16 base metals but at least 48 ways of using them. If we allow for some sort of atium-like surge that is similar to the others but stems directly from Honor, Odium or Cultivation, then the number of magic systems grows to at least 10. Additionally, the Old Magic may be unrelated to surges and thus increase the number of fundamental magics. I had originally pegged Szeth as simply someone so honorable that he was able to take advantage of Honor's power (via the Principle of Intent), but this raises interesting questions. However, I feel that Shallan and Jasnah are simply two adjacent orders of surgebinding that share Soulcasting. Jasnah was able to quickly recognize Shallan's power and did not immediately react in a negative way. I think it would be a reasonable assumption that Jasnah, if faced with a fellow Soulcaster whose abilities she did not recognize as "good" would react rather differently than she did. However, this speculation is intimately tied with how much we think Jasnah knows. Either way, very nice find! I noticed the rotational symmetry but never thought to look more.

It is good to see that this copy still exists, considering that the BYU library was having trouble locating the book.

Well, I guess there are worse ways for theories to die... but that's pretty interesting. I hope it wasn't revealed earlier and I forgot about it before posting.

I don't see the necessity of the recipient being around Sel when Odium killed Aona/Skai, so if someone could provide a good explanation that would be great. I feel that, in this case, that Hoid would have been at least aware of Sazed before the latter's ascension. He was one of the few remaining Feruchemists in HoA, and a very prominent member of the crew that overthrew the Lord Ruler. Thus, his line about immortality can be understood as "you were not previously immortal, but you are now," which supports this idea. There are a few ways to account for the annotations. It is possible that there are other worldhoppers than Hoid, and that they were independently accumulating information. Then, Sazed discovered them and formed Seventeenth Shard around their group. Alternatively, Sazed inducted the person who wrote the Elatris annotations and had him write the one for HoA. In any of our theories about annotations, however, we have to account for the fact that the annotations from Scadrial change depending on the book. I do not have a good explanation for this yet, so I personally find the independent group hypothesis more likely.

Sunblesser, I agree wholeheartedly. I suppose I should have been a bit more clear at the end - Sazed must have done something (given him knowledge of Hoid's trick or other effects) to ensure his lengthened lifespan. I don't think we have enough facts to pinpoint the exact method yet, but I'm sure that such a change is well within his power.

I realize that this theory may seem redundant given how much we discuss the Letter, Hoid, and Sazed. However, I feel that there is new evidence to support this claim, so this theory is an attempt to summarize many of the main points. We have unfortunately few direct facts concerning the Letter, its author, and its recipient. I will also make a few assumptions that seem reasonable given our current knowledge. Facts * Demoux was the 2nd person (with Galladon and an unknown character from an unpublished work) searching for Hoid on Roshar. * There was a infamous letter sent between two individuals who are both well-informed in Cosmere nature. * Sazed (as Harmony) believes in letting Scadrial try to run itself without Shardic interference (based on his conversation with Wax). * Way of Kings happens at least 100 years after the conclusion of Hero of Ages. Assumptions * Demoux was not an atium Ferring, nor a Feruchemist. Due to the Lord Ruler's breeding programs, It is likely that he did not have any Terris blood. * Atium compounding is the only way to live an extremely elongated life on Scadrial as of the conclusion of HoA. While we cannot rule out a priori atium or lerasium alloys, there appears no other way to live forever using the Metallic Arts. * Demoux, Galladon, and the unnamed third person looking for Hoid at the Purelake are members of the Seventeenth Shard. While we have no direct evidence to prove this, it seems reasonable given the text of the Letter and their stated intent. It is, however, a distinct possibility that they are not affiliated with the group, and are looking for Hoid for other reasons. * Hoid wrote the letter. Again, there is no direct evidence to support this claim. Given the subject nature of the text and its connection with the previously mentioned Seventeenth Shard, however, it seems likely that Hoid is the author. There is much to be said on the subject here. * Ati, Rayse, Aona, Bavadin, and Skai are the original holders of their respective Shards. This is slightly less of an assumption, based on what we know. * The recipient is himself a Shardholder. The Letter is basically a call for Cosmere-scale help, so unless there are other similarly powerful entities lurking around, the only possible class of recipient is those who still have their Shard(s). * Seons, being the Splinters of Devotion, could only come into existence after Odium killed Aona. It seems reasonable that Splintering a Shard causes the Splinters to come in to existence. Theory Now on to the big question - why Sazed? I will analyze certain sections of the Letter to provide evidence for this claim, and then look at other evidence based on the lifespan of Demoux. * Previous knowledge of the Shardholders - In the Letter, Hoid references names such as Ati, Rayse, Aona, and Skai. Importantly, he gives a brief sketch of the personalities of Ati and Rayse. From this, we can conclude that the recipient was not present when the original Shardholders received their Shards. Otherwise, he would already know the people involved. Sazed was clearly not born at this point, so it would be pertinent for Hoid to describe the other Shardholders. However, Hoid then makes a very specific reference - "... and you saw what became of him [Ati]." This implies that the recipient was aware of Ati's eventual corruption from "kind and generous" to a calculating and remorseless destroyer of worlds. Sazed witnessed (and understood) Ati's attempts to destroy Scadrial. * The Seventeenth Shard - The recipient is at the very least friendly with this mysterious organization. This is important. * Non-intervention - The Letter, at no point, makes reference to a local world, such as Scadrial or Roshar; on the contrary, it deals wholly with Cosmere-wide effects. Hoid then claims that the recipient believes in "nonintervention." I interpret this to mean nonintervention on a Cosmere-wide scale, based on the context. We have no reason to believe otherwise on a "local" scale - the recipient could be focused solely on his planet and eschew all other issues entirely. * Events on Sel - Hoid seems to imply that the recipient could only have witnessed the aftermath of Odium's visit to Sel. He does not imply that the recipient could have prevented the attack in some form, only that there was extreme damage done and that the results were disastrous. Sazed was born after the events of Elantris, and thus after the Seons appeared and the death of Aona. Sazed fits this bill nicely, in that he attempts nonintervention on his own world. It is perfectly conceivable that Sazed could desire that his world run itself without his intervention while having his hands all over the rest of the Cosmere. However, I claim that his Preservation/Ruin Intents would drive him to enforce his nonintervention on both relevant scales. There is a thread going here that discusses this. Now for the kicker of the argument, and what drove me to piece this together in the first place. We have recently seen that Demoux is one of the people searching for Hoid, who by assumption are members of the Seventeenth Shard and associated with the recipient. However, since we also assume that Demoux is not able to Feruchemically Invest atium, it is impossible for him to live an extended life in the same manner that the Lord Ruler did. Thus, since we observe Demoux alive and well during the events of Way of Kings, it must be that he has gained and elongated lifespan. He cannot Compound atium (a necessary condition to survive indefinitely using the Metallic Arts), so there must have been some other factor that allowed him survive until the search for Hoid on Roshar. The method is not particularly important at the moment (although I suspect it is related to Hoid's time dilation effects), but what is important is the timing. Here's where the speculation starts. I propose that Sazed, after picking up Preservation and Ruin, did some poking about the Cosmere. He encountered Hoid (either on Scadrial or elsewhere, although it is also reasonable that Hoid would want to meet the "new guy on the block"), and for whatever reason also decided that he wanted watchers on other planets. Perhaps it was an attempt to categorize the other Shards without showing up on their doorstep, or maybe as an advance warning system to see if he would be attacked. To this end, he created the Seventeenth Shard, and inducted Demoux. The story could continue with him eventually discovering Sel and inducting other members, but beyond that there is little more evidence to continue. Of course, any complete theory for this topic would have to account for the level of familiarity between the author and the recipient. I claim that in the span of time between HoA and WoK, Sazed and Hoid could come to know each other very well. In particular, if Hoid's true goal is to reunite the Shards, Sazed has a controlling influence on this process. If Sazed and Hoid did not agree on tactics to reunite the Shards, then that could lead to an understandable amount of bad feelings on both sides. I don't want to delve into the possibility that Hoid has the last bit of either God Metal, but it is possible that such a turn of events is why Sazed is angry with Hoid. Objections There are obviously some ways that this theory falls apart. Much of it rests on Hoid writing the Letter and his seekers belonging to the Seventeenth Shard. Apart from the obvious assumptions, though, it is clear that this theory is also dependent on Sazed's activities following his ascension. It is my opinion that the writing in the HoA epigraphs supports the idea that Sazed would try to learn as much as possible about the wider Cosmere as he could, and being a scholar he wouldn't wait long. There are also a few assumptions on the exact wording of the Letter, and given the importance ascribed to such by Brandon I find it likely that there are no "accidents" in diction or phrasing. If I have made other implicit assumptions or errors, please point them out. Thanks!

I wasn't able to personally go to the signing, but a friend of mine went for me and asked Brandon to sign my book with a "hint about the Cosmere." He laughed and said "one of those people," and wrote: "Look at the map of Shadesmar, there are clues." I don't recall if this has been posted before, but coupled with the quote in this post about the expanse of densities, I would hazard that we should be looking more closely at that map.

That seems reasonable, since Brandon has said much about the genetic component of accessing magic. I find it more likely that anyone from Roshar has access to the Thrill (if it is indeed due to Odium), but we shall see.

Fear not! One of my reasons for moving Leras (and the other original holders of the Shards) to their own page is so that these tidbits have a home. I did fix the references, though, you are certainly right there. My only real concern is how to reference Brandon's statements about the cosmere. While the Brandonology page is nice for quotes, it doesn't say where and when the questions were asked. I don't remember if the Google doc does (I can't remember how to find it), but it would be nice to be able to reference "Interview with B.S., 30 Feb 2011" or something.

I will admit, I was a bit silly to just rush into reorganizing things without asking first. So, my apologies to anyone whose toes I have stepped on! My reasoning for setting up individual pages for the (especially original) Shardholders was that we know some things about them that doesn't pertain to their power. For example, the characterizations of Ati or Rayse, or Sazed's entire life up until he took up his Shards. Furthermore, they have histories independent of their power, even if we don't know them yet. This way, if we ever learn more about them as individuals we can keep that separate. You are right, though - those entries will be very short until we learn more about the individuals.

I've been doing quite a bit of cleanup on the wiki, mostly to flesh our articles that are not nearly complete enough. One thing in particular is that I want to make the wiki a source for everything Shards, and to that end I have a few questions. First, are we sure that Leras, Ati, Tanavast, Skai, Aona, Rayse, and Bavadin were the original holders of their respective Shards? Since we distinguish between the Shardholder and the Shard, I figured that each of those people should get a page independent of their Shard. I will also create a category for Shardholders. Second, what should we call the Shards that we don't know their proper name? I propose, for the wiki, to use "Aona's Shard", etc. While I know Brandon doesn't see the difference, I want to make it clear on the wiki that we know of Shards if not by name. I realize it may be a bit of work to move the page later, but I think it is worth it in the name of a concise wiki.

Chaos, you're right about the distinction between Preservation's death and his attempt to trap Ruin. I was speaking too quickly, I think - I meant Preservation's power was without a strong guiding mind, and was just attempting to follow its Shard's intent. I wonder, then, at the sudden appearance of Allomancy during Alendi's time. Since I think you are right about the Well existing (and filling/draining) before Alendi's time, it would imply that there was someone other than an Allomancer to use the power so as to not free Ruin.

I apologize if this is already a known aspect of the cosmere, but I couldn't find it spelled out specifically in the forums. While reading the Mistborn HoA annotations, a particular quote from Brandon stuck out (Ch. 62): It occurred to me that this would have been soon after Preservation gave up his mind to trap Ruin, and then I realized that there are two other instances when we have seen the loss of the mind controlling a Shard. The first is in the same book, when Ruin died after Vin sacrificed herself. The second is the death of Honor at Odium's hands. My theory is the following: when a Shardholder dies, the power of the Shard diffuses into the world. The two examples from HoA are the rise of the first Mistings when Preservation dies and the increase in the rate of destruction of Scadrial when Ruin dies. The latter is evidenced by Sazed's line in the epigraph to Ch. 82: Mad_Scientist gives a very good explanation of Honor's power diffusing throughout Roshar and granting the spren sentience. I think that this abrupt infusion of power is characterized by a few things. First, it appears to the inhabitants of the world as a new source of power. Suddenly having Allomancers running around or spren everywhere is quite a change. Second, at least for Honor and Preservation, they left behind "automatic" devices to help the people on their respective worlds. There are obviously some things left to be verified about this theory. First, we know that Aona and Skai were killed on Sel. This would mean that their power, too, diffused into the world and created some noticeable changes. We do not yet know what happened following these events. I would not be surprised, however, to learn that the human -> Elantrian transformation was an automatic mechanism left behind by Aona, similar to the mists and Snapping. Second, we know that the Returned suddenly appeared on Nalthis. However, I find it unlikely that this is due to Endowment suddenly buying the farm because of the Voice that offers Returned another chance. More work is clearly needed to elucidate what happens when a Shardholder dies and leaves behind his vast power.

While I believe that Hoid did in fact write the letter, I'm not sure that the lake searchers are from the 17th shard. From what I read, Brandon was pretty clear (for him) that they were Raoden and the Dula (sans books and I can't remember the names correctly). There was a fairly conclusive thread about this on timewasters. While it sure doesn't fit Occam's Razor to have two people searching for Hoid at the same time, unless someone can find the Elantris cameo in WoK that Brandon mentioned, I conclude that there are in fact more than one group of people searching for Hoid.

My first thoughts: There seems to be some confusion regarding the language surrounding the Shards. It would be nice to know the distinction between someone who is bound to/holds a Shard of Adonalsium (such as Leras or Skai) and the Shard itself (Ruin or Endowment). I would certainly ask him to confirm/deny/RAFO Hoid's status as a Shardholder. Also with Hoid, I think it would be nice to know why the 17th Shard people are following him. The true names of the two shards (Aona and Skai) on Elantris would be nice.

I think that Austere holds the Endowment Shard (much as Ati held Ruin), based on the in-text references to him in Warbreaker. Furthermore, as Comatose pointed out on TWG, I believe that the flowers that produce the dye are his physical embodiment (much like atium for Ruin). They grow in one place and are valuable enough to control an entire economy (or world). Following Brandon's assertion that one of the Shards pre-WoK has left the scene, I think we are forced to conclude that the "tough call" is Odium causing disaster on Sel, and the "seen its power" is Jaddeth (referenced to be in the earth multiple times) creating the rift that causes Aons to stop working. However, if Hoid is indeed a Shard, then we have some problems. Clearly we have interacted with him, so either we didn't "interact" with Austere/Endowment but instead saw its influence (sending Lightsong back, etc) or there is some other discrepancy. Then, who indeed left before the story was told? I personally think it far more likely that Rayse/Odium had left before the story on Elantris, and that Hoid has something special going for him. Comatose's idea: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7006.0 Brandon's quote: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=7006.120

Brandon has made it quite clear that various numbers play a large role in his cosmere. While the number sixteen receives quite a bit of attention in Mistborn, I have found that the number ten is also significant. A short list (from memory) looks like: Sixteen - Shards of Adonalsium - Allomantic metals Ten - Heightenings - "Allomantic metals" when Kelsier first tells Vin - Heralds - Essences - Orders of Knights Radiant - Highprinces - Devotaries in Vorinism - heartbeats to summon a Shardblade This is by no means complete, and I would like to know if anyone else has seen additional groups of objects or other numbers that are significant.