Oltux72

We do have some idea what the Knights Radiant are facing. Fighting an immortal enemy who can resurrect within days is a serious problem. So an obvious point to strike at is the Everstorm. Yet how do you fight a storm? You could divert it, over open water it is useless to the enemy destroy it, that is the obvious approach render it useless by arcane means So what can be weaponized? The Everstorm was created by a group of Stormform? Can they undo their work? Can their work be done by fabrials Can a large group of Windrunners shidt or destroy the storm? Can they be replaced with Fabrials? Now to the wilder possibilities Drop Nightblood into it Start a breeding programm for Larkin and drop millions of them into the storm form an alliance with Sja-Anat and get her to corrupt a few Radiant's spren to give them super-Larkin abilities

We have the Purelake group of agents looking for Hoid. If they are associated with the 17th Shard and Frost heads the 17th Shard, why does he not just write a letter? And if the lighthouse keeper did not work for the Ire, we have to explain why an Elantrian happens to settle a light house in Shadesmar. Also do we really believe that Felt is fully independent? In fact is he human? How sure are we, that he is not a Kandra? If he isn't working for Harmony, where are his observers?

They do accomplish something. They are preserving their forces. If you want to hurt the Alethi most, you shoot at the infantry. If you want to gain an advantage at that battle, you'll shoot at the bridges. Obviously, if you kill enough bridges, you will delay the attack for long enough for you to escape. Even failing that, the fewer bridges, the more choke points you will have to exploit. Basically the Parshendi were almost destroyed and had to preserve their own forces and avoid risks. Bows exist on a spectrum. The only distinct types are distinguished by material.

Edgedancers are even more into society, as are Bondsmiths or the Stonewards. The choice of sources for the conclusions seems to be a bit selective.

To overcome death itself is pretty ambitious, though. And there is the corruption. Simply blundering into a Shade will also wither you. They may seem more active. That they are more material is a guess.

They are in warform. They could draw it. The question is whether Roshar has the wood needed to make them without fabrials the Alethi are using.

That is a necessary precondition, but it is not enough. A qualitative change in technology and methods is needed. He has facilities for production with an internal division of labor. Such facilities existed already in classical antiquity. Those may become cores of factories, but they are not yet. No mechanization, no external power. Potentially. But it is not used for that in production Maybe. It may be used for production, or it may be used only in warfare. Because they make nothing (with very few minor exceptions). Again, please note that if you fabrialize Cohesion or Tension it can very likely be done. I am not saying that it is impossible. I am saying that they are not doing it and by the end of Oathbringer they do not know how. They may do so in the future, but it is not inevitable. There is a mass demand. Whether it pays of in production after the war and whether it leads to mechanization in production is an open question. And the leadership of the Knights Radiant being Alethi, the artefabrians may just be drafted or have the prices set by law. In wars after the industrial revolution had already started. Earlier wars at the scale of a desolation destroyed civilization.

Yes, but that is logically independent of a start of an industrial revolution. The Alethi are merely expanding. I am afraid we are talking past each other. I would say (at the risk of repeating myself) that an industrial revolution will need some kind of proto-assembly line, to facilitate division of labor within one plant a source of power mechanization Now, you have spoken about the Venetian Arsenal and Sebarial's plants. They show that Roshar has taken the first hurdle. Fabrials arguably would help taking the second hurdle. But there is no indication the third hurdle would be taken. Venice is the best example that an assembly line itself does not help. Now, the Rosharans likely have the technology, but do they have the incentives? Right. Yet that requires a mass market mechanization again

Stormblessed isn't 35. Show us his birth certificate! Give us a true man of the people not working with the Lighteyes! Moash for president.

Small targets, further away than the bridges, well armored ... If you can pull that off, that's the best option. If ...

Well, actually it speaks for government subsidies. The High Princs have to feed the camps. Not much choice there. Yes, but not in production. The advanced fabrials we have seen were luxury goods or used in warfare or espionage. Can we agree that it is clear that Fabrials have the potential to support a magoindustrial revolution? We are discussing economics, history and development, not technology. They fuel production, not industry. The distinction is important. Probably a result of the original question asking about the masses being educated. Because they are fighting for their lives now. Hence resources will be redirected to the production of armaments. War is great for technology, not so much for basic research. Right. I fail to see how this is possible without an extreme political change in Scadrial. Where would they have learned about censorship for example? Nalthis, respectively Hallandren, with a strong theocratic government and a tradition of military state secrets can do that. But Scadrial? Well, technically Fabrials are used in ships.But that is very much an exception. Instead they are used to heat noble ladies' bath water. Right. The potential is in Fabrials, not Surgebinders.

And the competition. Let's be honest, Kaladin got other bridge crews killed. Competent Parshendi will fire at the slower bridges because they have a better chance of actually stopping them.

So, are we making a further unwarranted assumption in thinking that Dalinar ordered Szeth to be imprisoned in his own prison? Do people on the human side know that Szeth is a Skybreaker? So may we be looking at an attempt at espionage by putting somebody with a spren into somebody's dungeon rather than an internal conflict among the Knoghts Radiant?

The Knights Radiant seem to be hopelessly outclassed, doomed to be wiped out fighting an enemy that cannot be killed. So we are getting a time jump of one year. How are they still alive? Is it possible that this contains the hidden assumption that the Everstorm will persist, which just isn't true? If it faded out a few weeks after the end of Oathbringer things are not quite so hopeless again.

To start an industrial revolution, no, that is not necessary. To enjoy the level of wealth relevant the initial question of going to the CR (Shadesmar specifically) it would be necessary. Hence my attempt to separate the topics. Yes, they can. But the surges and fabrials are as yet not used in industry much. Fabrials for heating and cooling actually are luxury goods. There are some exceptions using them in industry but they are few. (In shipping and soulcasters for metals). Soulcasters are specifically used to substitute agricultural products or in construction or waste disposal. Specificlly not in manufacture in the strict sense. Now, nobody has argued that this state of affairs need be permanent. It is possible that Roshar will soon start an industrial revolution. But it is not inevitable (baring a major catastrophe) like on Scadrial. And if it happens, it will take considerable time to transform Roshar.

Yes. Hence our problem saying in which period of science and technology they are. And we are complicating this by introducing economics. So we better introduce some precision. Industry in the sense necessary for an (mago)industrial revolution needs division of labor use of an external source of energy mechanization Roshar, as High Prince Sebarial demonstrated, may have a primitive form of division of labor, but nothing more. Centralized production was known before the industrial revolution. For textiles in the 18th and 17th century. Protoindustries like shipbuilding go back to the Bronze Age. In fact Russian archaelogists have discovered a Bronze Age town dedicated to metal working (Sintašta - if I romaniye this correctly). Again, this is very much concentrated on the rich, powerful and soldiers. The average Rosharan is a peasant working with hand tools. It takes time to concentrate capital and train a work force. We have to estimate at least a generation likelier two.

It has occured to me that I was asking that question in too limited a manner. After all the CR is not the only thing that matters. We were looking at these questions too much from a technological angle. That is not everything. It does not matter if something could be built if nobody could pay for it. So let's go through the worlds. Threnody That depends entirely on an unknown factor. Will they overcome the Shades? First of the Sun Nothing much known Nalthis (or rather the two cultures we know) Hallandren This is problematic. Breaths are a zero-sum game. That makes me wonder whether Nalthis will have a problem with accumulating capital. If you are rich there, will you invest in your factory or buy Breaths for the Fifth Heightening? Idris Well, they may never produce the necessary surplus. Sel Arelon & Elantris That is difficult. Do they have a need for much of an economy? Fjordell Empire Probably the best bet for industry on Sel. An existing trade network. Not too much government. Rose Empire It looks overregulated to me. Teod A bit small. Scadrial The poster child. Both continents are already there. Roshar Many like this world and fabrials are fascinating, but I am afraid this world has problems. Shinovar Dominated by a religion with numerous taboos. Also extremely insular. Vorin Lands Again, religion. A modern economy and a taboo against literacy are unlikely to be compatible. Also too much economic dirigism. Azir Overregulated. In fact the prime example of overregulation. Iri lands We know little. What we know looks good.

That is absolutely correct. The obstacles Roshar is facing are economic, miitary and ideological, not technical. The planet is a lot poorer than Scadrial and heading for an economic breakdown. Also a lot of people are going to die in the war. After and if that is overcome, they will have to face the issue that a religion that sets wages and forbids half the people from learning to read and write is quite likely incompatible with an industrial revolution.

The predator was strictly speaking not a serial killer. And he was not an elite fighter. He was a hunter. Flamethrower

Soulcasting. You can make a smoke cloud in your shape.

That is kind of circular. If there is an alternate souce of ettmetal, the problem goes away. You can explain an alien elite fighter fighting his way into Scadrial. You can explain a serial killer, even an alien serial killer. But the combination defies logic. Why would a powerful alien force his way into Scadrial just to become a serial killer?

Exactly. You need the printing press, mass media, mass literacy, fast communications and mass travel. Roshar has some of that or a magic substitute, but they lack the economic development basically. I would say that it is inevitable that Roshar will now see organized research into Shadesmar and looking for other worlds, but that is not teh same thing as mass awareness. If teh Knights Radiant should suffer a massive defeat, the knowledge can be lost again.

I am saying that your reasoning is incorrect. The ultimate choice depends on preferences which cannot be rationally chosen, but given your stated preference I doubt the choice is optimal.

That is exactly the point. Logic does not give you facts. Logic gives you consistency. If A, then B. But in the end the knowledge whether A is true comes from observation.

That can just as well argue for them having to use the northern one OK, a bgood bloodbath in the afternoon is supremely relaxing . I like gratitious violence at least as much possibly much more than the next man. I could accept a probing attack or a campaign of saotage against Scadrial. But in this case the question best be simply put as: Why would he do that?