Oudeis

It's widely theorized, though who knows if it's true, that Hoid has several "native" powers that came about under the reign of Adonalsium on Yolen. So his method of obtaining feruchemy might have as little to do with the terris as his Lightweaving has to do with a liespren.

Eh... that feels like a huge stretch. And again, that's a TON of effort. You don't start knowing that there are these four women and if you research them you will discover that they are the people you want. You are told: Here is the pool of literally hundreds of women who are all within the nobility, major or minor (you can't narrow it down by family, of course, because the whole point is you're searching for paternity being other than as reported; you must search literally every woman in all of Noble society). And you have to search them all, to learn which have hidden bloodlines. All so... you can take a woman you assume won't be as actively sought? Despite the fact that her biological father at least dotes on her enough to pay for her eductation and have her live with him? On the same night you're taking a legitimate daughter? Mr. Suit comments that he almost took Steris of the list, implying there were alternates available. They had other options, and they apparently put INSANE effort into finding even more. Why? Marasi was, if anything, a MARGINALLY better option, and even that's questionable.

This... is a model I had not considered before. You're saying that being an allomancy lets you "channel" the power of the atium, essentially giving the energy something to do, so that it doesn't end up affecting your body; without this outlet, the power of the atium might change your body in ways that affect your offspring. Interesting. Not sure I believe it, but it's certainly plausible. Another thought: Feruchemy is the system of balance, yet we have a quote saying Preservation gave it to men. Well, Preservation is the one who created the system of atium. Perhaps Preservation, making atium a thing, is what "gave" it to the Terris people.

Throwing this out there for the sake of completeness: Miles refers to Marasi as the bastard Lady Harms. This rules out the possibility that they knew she had allomancy but didn't realize she was Lord Harms's daughter, as her official last name is Colms. I fully understand that if they wanted to find out, they could have learned. But again... why bother? There were plenty of women to choose from. Why put the effort into studying this woman's background and learning her secrets, just on the off-chance that it happens to be information you can use? My question isn't how did they find out. My question is, why did they bother? However easy it is, if they didn't already know, did they go through the geneaology of literally every woman in Elendel noble society to see which ones were secretly the by-blows of more allomantically-powerful lines? Learning one woman's secrets is easy. Learning the secret lives of enough women to find out the very, very few pertinent to your own interests, when you're already in a target-rich environment is... why do it, when there's no real gain? Picking a different woman would have been about a million times easier than learning about Marasi alone, however easy that was, let alone the amount of research you'd have to do on random Noble women before even finding the few hiding their blood, and Marasi is no better for their cause than any of a dozen other women at the party.

This, basically. The fact that the city used to glow is one more clue that it's an Aon. I didn't understand that skaa was saying he didn't understand why the walls glow; I thought we were all on the same page. Well, that's a different scenario. Denth knew a lot of what he was saying was wrong, and was lying to her. I thought it was expressly stated in the annotations but I cannot find it right now...

...but they had very definitely signed a treaty, moments ago. That treaty has the force of law. Assassinating the king broke the treaty.

Aru? Is this for a specific event?

See this is what I was trying to say. You say they have ONE thing in common, like cognitive effect is unique. But it's not. Like all things, like all people, like all phenomenon, Investitures exist in all three realms. They all need the Intent, yes. They also all seem to need something physical. And they all seem to need something spiritual. I'm not disagreeing with you that Investiture requires something cognitive. But you're phrasing it in a way to suggest that this is the only commonality to be found between Investitures, and I think this is a false assumption. True, without the decision to Soothe, a Misting couldn't Soothe. However, without brass shavings, he also couldn't, and without the proper spiritweb, he also couldn't. Your premise seems to be that the cognitive is somehow key to everything, and I disagree. You also seem to be dividing up the realms in a way I don't think is an accurate model. Talking about the cognitive and physical realms as distinct places is, I believe, talking about the cyan and magenta ink on a color print-out like they're separate. They're just aspects of one greater whole. It is faulty to define Investiture as "using the cognitive realm to affect the physical realm." In almost every case, to occasionally different extents, it is using all three realms to affect... all three realms. Spren are practically unheard of throughout the cosmere by seeming to exist in only one realm and yet... do they? Aren't flamespren just an aspect of fire? Aren't rainspren a facet of the rain?

I don't think anything you say here is fully accurate. 1. How does allomancy make the distance "longer"? Point A is the moment of creation. Point B is the heat death of the universe. The world loses energy at a certain rate (this is the MPH in the example). Allomancy, by adding energy, briefly changes the rate at which energy is lost, slowing it. There's a big hill on my way to work. I bike up it to get to work. I bike down it to get home. Due to that hill, my commute in is 45 minutes, and out it's 30 minutes. The hill doesn't make my route in physically longer, it just changes my speed. Allomancy isn't providing some shortcut, or making you take a detour, or making the "distance" between the two locations any different. Point A is n units of energy, point B is 0 units of energy. The distance between them is n. Adding energy to the system after the fact does not change how much energy the system had in the first place, and that's "distance" in this analogy. 2. Ruin is not about "the journey." Vin knows, when she first becomes Preservation, that if Ruin had the power to, he would simply snuff the world out like a candle. That's what he needs the atium for; to overpower Preservation and destroy the world. He certainly enjoys the act of ruination, but he's all about the ending. If he could have that this instant, he would. 3. The epigraphs of the Hero of Ages tell us that "there being nothing" isn't Preservation enough; there has to be SOMETHING to preserve or it doesn't count. A universe entirely devoid of energy might be static, but it's not Preservation. This might seem counter-intuitive, but we have the actual Hero of Ages's word on it from the epigraphs of the book. 4. Again, the epigraphs. Yes, they can both be defined as a mix, or of one, because God said so. Allomancy draws all of it's power directly from Preservation. It was gained via nuggets of pure Preservation's power, used to rewrite your spiritweb to more closely have a direct link to Preservation. It is of Preservation. There's no debating this point. Feruchemy neither adds power to the system nor loses it. It does not affect the world's natural slide towards heat death. It is of balance. 5. I'm not really sure where you're trying to go here. I've been discussing the official definition, per Harmony. If you instead want to talk about how, if you think about it, there are aspects of allomancy that in a vague, philosophical kind of way that might be sorta like ruin... well, I guess I can't prevent you. But comparing them while putting allomancy in the context of the real world but feruchemy entirely devoid of context and expecting people to think you're drawing logical conclusions... that, I believe, is inaccurate. And I simply have no idea what you mean when you say allomancy isn't slowing the rate of energy loss in the universe, it's "making the distance longer". That just makes no sense.

I feel like this is an oversimplification... This is how Investiture behaves in a few specific ways. There are other Investitures which are more spiritual, and still others which are more physical. And others that affect multiple realms. Simply within feruchemy, the powers are loosely grouped by the Realm they interact with most closely. Of course, each one requires a conscious decision, and is therefore cognitive... but by that same note, it could just as easily be said they each require a physical component in the metalmind, and a spiritual component in the spiritweb that makes one a feruchemist. For that matter, neither bronze nor copper allomancy seems to affect the "physical" world very much.

What he said, basically. If I could perhaps summarize: The bond was weak, and Kaladin was having trouble getting stormlight. In that moment, he needed a TON of stormlight. Like blowing an electric circuit, forcing too much power through the weakened bond transfered the power (saving Kaladin) but burning out the bond.

Nowhere: I have not read past the first half of the first sentence: While I do appreciate that you (just barely) warn of spoilers before saying them, I would appreciate it even more if you could edit your post to put it behind a spoiler tag.

You are missing 100% of my point. They are happening within the same context. If allomancy is taking place within the context of "the universe", how can you possibly justify comparing it to feruchemy taking place without the context of the world it is within? All things are decaying, all of the time. Every body is dying. Every stone is degrading. Every metal is rusting. The world marches towards heat death. That is the context. Allomancy is within this context. Feruchemy is within this context. Hemalurgy is within this context. In this context, hemalurgy speeds up the decay. It wastes things faster than entropy is. In this context, feruchemy is neutral. It doesn't take anything permanently out of the system, and it doesn't add anything new to the system. All checks are balanced. At the end, it's a zero-sum. The world is exactly as it would have been if there had been no feruchemy; no energy is either added or lost. In this context, allomancy is a force for stasis. The world is in a state of ruin; it is losing energy. That is the case, regardless of whether allomancy is being used. Allomancy tried to balance this loss by adding energy; saying that allomancy is "an intersection of ruin" because it's occuring within a decaying system is like saying that slowing your car from 50mph to 45mph is like saying the change is an equal mix of slow-and-fast, because the car already had speed to begin with. The whole system has both slow and fast; the actual change of speed, however, is purely slow. Let's extend the analogy. Preservation, Stasis, we're going to call it Stop. It's Intent is that the car cease moving. It wants the MPH to be 0. Ruin is now Go. It wants decay to happen at the fastest possible rate. It wants the MPH to be infinite. The world is decaying; this is fact. If there were no arcana, the car is moving. It's not going 0, and it's not going infinite speed. Let's say it's going 50mph right now. Hemalurgy makes things worse. It causes things to decay faster; energy is lost. The MPH rises to 60. Clearly, this is of ruin. Nothing changes in hemalurgy. Things stay exactly as they're going... but that means the car is still moving. It is still going from point A to point B, and will get there someday. Traveling at 50mph is not a stop. Feruchemy doesn't change the mph. Nothing, at the end of the day, is lost or gained. Things are still changing, at exactly the same rate as before. Nothing is being preserved any more than it was before, and nothing is being ruined any faster. We are no closer to 0 or infinite mph than we were before. Allomancy does change it. Allomancy, by adding energy to a system losing energy, slows the car. Now we're at 40mph. It's not perfect, and hasn't managed to stop the car. But now we're closer to 0, and further from infinite. It will take us longer to get to Point B (Point B is the heat death of the universe). And the "energy" being added to slow the car comes from the infinite power of creation, so it's not being used up. I can see where the confusion comes from; feruchemy changes nothing about itself, and looks like stasis, if you're the person inside the car. But a car isn't static, and the world isn't static. Preservation's Intent isn't to let things keep decaying at their current rate, it's to stop decay altogether. Feruchemy lets things keep decaying; allomancy seeks to arrest the trend.

Eh. You seem to be assuming here that Nale doesn't want to personally break the law, but has no problem enabling others to do it for him. I think we see from his minions that this is totally not the case. Nale would never in any way encourage a group to break a treaty, and the law, by sending an assassin after a king.

I feel like people are missing a point here. The underlying assumption (not to pick on Edgedancer, a lot of people are thinking this way) is that the natural state of the world is one of stasis. It's not, it's of decay. Feruchemy, in and of itself, is somewhat static, but within the context of a system of decay (by which I mean, a person slowly dying, as we all are) is doing nothing to prevent this decay. It doesn't help the broader picture remain more static, but it also doesn't cause it to decay any faster. Hemalurgy, obviously, casuses things to decay faster. Allomancy is powered by the infinite power of Preservation, so nothing is being lost in the power transfer, but the end result is more stasis. A person isn't using up their own body's resources, they are getting benefit, putting energy into the world, without cost. Keeping things more stable by fighting against entropy. I think that's what confuses people. They are missing the context that the systems exist within. Feruchemy seems like "Preservation" because it's not changing anything, itself, but it's also within the context of a body dying, and doing nothing to keep that body stable. It's not Ruining it, but it's not Preserving it. Hemalurgy ruins it. Allomancy preserves it.

Eh... you've got two examples of mechanical metallic arts. What you've failed to do is explain the link, why you think hemalurgy specifically is the way it will be done. It's possible, certainly. But not necessarily the only way, or even a way with a good indication of being correct. Recall that the Southern Scadrians have a mechanical method, and they lack Lerasium-bred mistings to use to fuel hemalurgic spikes. Since hemalurgy requires that one person already have a talent before it can be taken and given elsewhere, in a society without the original resource, hemalurgy won't let you transfer a thing you haven't got to a machine. I'm also going to take this opportunity to plug one of my own favorite theories. I don't think the Southern Scadrians had a thousand years. It makes no sense. This was meant to be his fallback plan in a millenium, a genetic reserve in case things went poorly. Why would he assume they would survive on their own for a thousand years? And as you've pointed out, they would almost certainly have advanced quite far in that time, which we know he didn't want. My theory, which I will try to find the actual thread for and link to, is that with Preservation's knowledge in his head, he knew how to work mechanical allomancy, set up a God-powered cadmium machine, and the Southern Scadrians have only lived like fifty years. I also think studying this machine is why they know how to access the metallic arts mechanically; if it were as simple as wondering, "say I wonder if we can..." it makes no sense that a culture without obvious allomancy would figure it out on their own, while a society which clearly studies the metallic arts (Marasi references this) does not. While I admit I have little actual support for my theory, it does neatly explain a half-dozen gaping plotholes which otherwise require a metric ton of handwavium.

Eh... I hesitate to say that we know all spikes are equal. And keep in mind, koloss were once human, and kandra were most recently mistwraiths. When Vin takes over a kandra, it lasts for a few seconds; when she takes over a koloss, it lasts indefinitely. Saying that four spikes will always equal the same amount of flaw is like saying Marsh can burn a gram of bronze in an hour, so Ham should be able to burn a gram of pewter in an hour. We know that's not the case; metals have different burn rates.

1. I correctly say brass, not copper. 2. In my head, the entire bit in the middle is, as per her song, an insert, so the original sentence should read as though the bit in the middle wasn't said. "Keeping yourself never (what's it store again?) cold". I fully concede this line is a stretch. I don't think I can fix it, so if I finish the song I will prolly go back and find some different metal to restructure the whole thing, possibly to the extent of changing the metal in the previous line to rhyme. And thank you for the compliment! It means a lot to know the thing I think in my head is cool is also cool in other people's heads. And I very much appreciate your constructive criticism; this particular time it happens to be something I am aware of and it's on my to-do list of fixes, but nice to know this is the one you pick up on, and not all the other times I thought my lyrics were weak.

A shower later I've come up with a few more lyrics. I've also decided it's Mraize singing about everywhere he's been, but still wishing to see the fantastic World Reborn, where one man wields two Shards... Scadrial... (Work in Progress) I wanna be where the metalborn are. I wanna see, wanna see them tapping, Drawing out health from their... which metal is that? Oh, gold. Heightenings don't really do that much. Brass is required for spiking, Soothing, Keeping yourself never... what's it store again? Cold. Where steel can fly, Where tin can see, Where folks are born with allomancy, Somewhere past Sel, To Scadrial, To that Shardworld. Who would I stab, If I could nab, All of their traits? Some of their spirit? What would I store, Then compound more, Infinitely? If Harmony, Would give to me, If I had tin, and you dropped a pin, Even rooms away, I'd hear it. And ready to know what the Mistings know, Eat their metals, and use their powers, Which one's pewter, and how do you... ..what's the word? BURN! When it's my turn, To leave Roshar, Past the expanses of Shadesmar... Leave through the Well, On Scadrial... To that Shardworld...

The dangers of pondering the Cosmere while otherwise bored on the train, and listening to your playlist on random. Now I can't get out of my head the image of Mraize, amidst his Cosmere-wide collection, singing a modified version of The Little Mermaid's "Part of the World". I've got Aons and Fabrials aplenty. I've got aviars and mistwraiths galore. You want Lifeless? I've got twenty. I wanna be where the metalbirn are. I wanna see, wanna see 'em tapping, drawing out health from their... What do they call them? Oh. Goldminds. I wanna know what the Ministry knows... Asking my questions, and get some answers. What is pewter and how do you- what's the word? BURN!

If you're talking about tapping zinc, I have no idea. I would say not, on balance. Anyone who knows what Soothing is knows they're being Soothed by duralumin, and cannot do anything about it. Straff knew what Soothing was, and was aware that Vin was toying with his emotions; that, if anything, made his trauma worse. I don't see it helping with the actual moment of apathy. If Straff could have simply thought about being angrier I suspect he'd've done that. Are you talking about the aftermath, how Straff had issues going forward stemming from the trauma? Perhaps. Depending on how tapped zinc works, it might help you to deal with the event as it's happening, and thereby have it be less traumatic, letting you move on once it's over. However, you actually talked about storing zinc. Could that help? Could you make time seem to go by faster, be too dim-witted to fully realize what's happening to you? Again, I don't see it helping in the moment; you'll just be apathetic and now also stupid. But, it might help you survive the trauma better. How about hemalurgy? Could hemalurgic zinc or copper help? I don't see copper helping, for the reasons above re: feruchemical zinc. However, allomantic zinc? Kandra themselves, and their Blessings, are perhaps a separate issue. We have WoB, I believe, that the Blessing of Stability helps to fight off control via things like allomancy, but to what extent? How much overkill is there in a normal burst? We know koloss can be taken by Vin burning without duralumin, but not by Breeze, and kandra can be taken by neither. So, that I know of, we have no idea. Moving on. However, just a person with a spike? Does one spike make one already more susceptible to emotional allomancy, and if so, to what extent? Vin does comment that she can feel the Lord Ruler's Soothing through copper, and Kelsier claims he can't. We've been assuming he was just trying to protect himself with denial, but maybe her earring really made her more susceptible. So, I'd suggest that a copper spike would be worse. You'd have the minor Flaw of a spike, and the power itself would mitigate the problem only minimally. However, I think a zinc spike would likely end up with a net benefit. Hard to say, with how little we know of hemalurgy as a whole and zinc hemalurgy, specifically.

You're assuming here that only the Scholars were involved in its creation; first, keep in mind that of the Scholars, it was only Talaxin and Shashara who had direct hands in Awakening it. And we have no idea how many other people who weren't of the Scholars could have been involved, so we don't know it was the Scholars themselves. Hypothetically, a Herald (or anyone from Roshar with knowledge of Sprenblades) could have come to Nalthis, found Shashara, explained to her the underlying concepts (either admitting his nature or pretending to be a simple researcher) and become her patron, colleague or assistant. Of course, another option is that either Vasher or Shashara actually had been to Roshar and had studied Sprenblades on their own. Either is an option. WoB is that Nightblood is specifically "third generation", which implies he was based on the Sprenblades, not on the actual Honorblades, which might suggest it wasn't a Herald. Although, it's possible a Herald didn't think to replicate the Honorblades until the Spren did, studied how the Spren did it, and based the research on this dataset. Basically, anything is possible.

I feel the same as Argent. I feel compelled to tell someone of my opinion of the two different endings, but feel it would serve no purpose, especially as people seem to have powerful emotions regarding it.

Recall this is a land where no one goes on sea journeys because once a year you can go a few days without a Highstorm. Maybe people just don't tend to climb mountains when they might end up being stuck on an unforgiving cliff face in the worst of a Highstorm. Even if people tend to spend time around the Valley, I would imagine they take only the lowest passes through the mountain, and go around literally whenever possible. It might not be THAT weird that no one has seen it.

Aluminum, who knows. We've only the faintest notion what it does. Unless it makes you immune to Investiture as a whole, I'd be surprised. I'm not sure anyone really identifies themselves expressly as "a person who is currently experiencing a certain level of emotions." I feel like there was a recent WoB saying if Soothing happens in the Cognitive or Spiritual realm... if it happens in the Spiritual, maybe aluminum would do something, as what little we know of aluminum is that it's Spiritual. If it happens in Cognitive, I think the current evidence indicates that there'd be minimal interaction. Electrum... maybe. Determination is an emotion, yes? So you'd feel at least that, more so than if you weren't tapping. I'd feel more confident answering this question if we knew more about it or had seen it be used, but on evidence I expect it would mitigate it some. What would it feel like to be determined, but to feel no other emotion? Can you be "determined" to feel other emotions?