agrabes

What would happen with Sanderson & his fandom at large:

Most likely, Sanderson himself and his publishers/editors would try to look at the criticisms of fans and critics and try to understand where he went wrong.  He would try to pour those corrections into Mistborn Era 3.  The fandom would be disappointed, but wouldn't abandon him for one bad book even if it was a very pivotal one.  He might lose sales on some of his secondary material like the Novellas, etc.

What would happen for me personally:

I think for my own reaction, I'd need to have two extremely terrible books in a row from a certain series in order to consider dropping it.  If SA5 and SA6 are both bad, I'd strongly consider stopping reading SA.  I'd still read Mistborn or other cosmere series as long as I liked how those series were going.  Realistically, I think it would take 3 very bad books in a row for me to actually drop it.

What I think/hope will happen in reality:

SA5 will not be a terrible book.  But, I think it may be one of the lowest rated cosmere/SA books.  I think that Sanderson will take feedback and look at his own writing and plotting process and realize he needs to let himself breathe.  Setting an exact number of books and plot structure for various series decades in advance has limited his creative license in his own worlds.  He'll consider scrapping some of the planned cosmere series, such as the ones that provide Hoid's backstory to allow more room for Mistborn and SA to grow (or shrink) as needed for the integrity of those stories and the overall arc of the Cosmere.  Rather than multi-book arcs, he may fill in some of the gaps in the wider cosmere story with single books like Elantris or Warbreaker.  This allows him more flexibility to tell the story as he wants to tell it.

On 12/30/2020 at 3:07 PM, Ammanas said:

To a certain extent yes, but it depends on your expectations. For me I am thrilled if a author can publish a book a year. Even the most fast and dependable author have occasional lulls and multiple years between books. For example: Joe Abercrombie, James Corey, Jim Butcher, Steven Erikson, Glen Cook. I could go on but you get the point. As long as Brandon can publish one book a year I care about whether it by Skyward or Cosmere I’m very happy. 

Yeah - very fair.  You have to admire Sanderson for his dedication to writing.  I'm not one who is upset that Lost Metal has been delayed in favor of a few other projects.  I like most of what he's written, though there are a few things I haven't gotten into like Legion and Alcatraz.  I'm definitely not complaining about him in general or saying he needs to change to suit my personal tastes.  I just feel like the overall writing style of Sanderson's works have changed over the last few years.  I don't think his writing is getting worse, just less my style.  Doesn't mean I won't keep reading the Cosmere and following what he is up to.  But I will be a bit more careful in picking and choosing what books of his I will pick up outside the main Cosmere full length novels. 

On 12/30/2020 at 9:30 PM, Sara Stormblessed said:

Did Kaladin really "want to meet someone to share his life with" in so many words? Was he really hunting for a mate or just vaguely open to the idea?

I might be projecting, but I get the impression that Kaladin's romantic interest arises only after he gets to know said person platonically. Adolin saw beautiful women and decided to try each of them on until one fit. However, Kaladin is really not interested in starting romantic conversations with people he hardly knows, as we saw when he was in the wine house with Adolin and Shallan. A big part of me hopes that we don't see a romantic storyline from him for a long time. If we do, I think it will be a long, patient game, with someone he first befriends platonically.

It is a shame that people feel like lack of romance makes Kaladin's storyline incomplete. Do all stories have to end in death or marriage? Don't spinsters deserve some representation in literature? 

At least from my view, he did.  It was something he thought about in WoK, WoR, and OB.  He was really busy in WoK with essentially no opportunities to meet women, so it wasn't very prominent in WoK but it was still there.  Was he "hunting for a mate"?  No - he wasn't actively out there trying to find any woman who was willing to give him the time of day.  But he also wasn't just "vaguely open to the idea" such that he would ignore an opportunity with someone he was interested in.  His entire "ship" with Shallan came around that way - he got to know her and decided that it was worth it to him to try to pursue a relationship with her even though he knew it was inconvenient and could really screw things up if they actually did get together.  If he was just vaguely open to it, there's no chance he would have even considered anything with Shallan who was engaged to another man.

I don't think a lack of romance makes a character's story incomplete in general.  For example, Szeth is not engaged in or pursuing any romance and I don't think this makes his arc incomplete at all.  The same with many other important characters like Venli, Lopen, Teft, etc.  It's just that Kaladin has shown that romance is something he does (or did) want.  He's had a significant romance arc in the story.  So for his story to feel complete, he needs to make some progress on that one way or another.  To feel satisfying for me personally, we need to either see him pursue a relationship successfully on screen or convincingly decide that he needs to set aside romance or is just no longer interested in it.  At the end of OB, we get a very lame scene of him denying he ever had any feelings for Shallan, which (thankfully) there is now a WoB confirming that that was Kaladin lying to himself/in denial.  It can't be something like that at least for my tastes.  If he's putting aside romance, it needs to be thought out and represent his rational thinking - not just coming in the wake of a rejection.

Does anyone else feel like Sanderson is gradually moving away from the things you like the most about his work?  Judging from this thread, probably not many who are reading it, but maybe.  All his plans for ambitious side projects, expanding into multiple media forms, etc just don't seem like my cup of tea.  I'm glad he's able to pursue these ideas because it seems like they are dreams he's had for a long time.  And I definitely want him to go after the things that are most important to him.  But I don't think I will purchase any of these audiobooks that he is putting out through his new platform.  

I think for me, part of the issue is that there was a sense of newness and adventure when he first came into the scene.  For me, his greatest talent was that he could jump into the fantasy establishment and write using the foundations of the greats that came before him, but put in amazing and unexpected spins.  Things like the rules of Allomancy - the magic was cool, but generally in any fantasy novel before there was nothing like the firm set of rules for how it worked.  The fact that Vin, not Kelsier, was the hero of Mistborn felt like it was subverting a trope (of course, I'm sure genre veterans will point out that many authors had done this before and it was probably just the excitement of reading a story like that for the first time myself).  Elantris' system based on fall of the city Elantris and its magic system.  Way of Kings' amazing worldbuilding.  Those are the things that drew me in.  But for me, each new book has had less and less of that excitement.

I think part of it is that as he's become an established author, he can't be the "trope subversion" guy anymore - his works are the mainstream now and a new generation of authors will be creating their own twists on the Sanderson style and another giant in the genre will come out in a few years.  Part of it is that I think over the last few years he's realized he's set himself a nearly impossible task to complete the cosmere and he's really trying to drive plot and keep on his writing schedule at the expense of some quality.

Either way, for me personally, Skyward has been the most interesting and exciting thing he's put out since probably Words of Radiance.  To me it feels the most "Sanderson" of anything he's written recently.  So I'm glad he's giving it a full 4 books.  But these SoS's always worry me a little bit.  It seems like Sanderson's response to stress/possible impending burnout is to add even more to his plate!  Best of luck to him and I hope he's able to keep those creative juices flowing and stay energized doing what he loves!

3 hours ago, Seloun said:

I kind of understand what you mean here about Jasnah coming off as being a bit of a jerk, but I think the reading might be slightly off. The main things to note here:

1) Jasnah is the one who asks Dalinar and Navani for their opinions (it's not Dalinar who brings it up to her):

Jasnah solicits Dalinar's opinion - it's not Dalinar bringing up an objection and her simply rejecting it out of hand. Also, it's pretty clear Dalinar hasn't really thought about the issue besides, well, dismiss it out of hand as a viable opinion:

So Dalinar brings up two objections here (really one objection stated twice). This leads to:

2) Jasnah does specifically respond to Dalinar's points:

She acknowledges that Dalinar is likely correct that this proposal will cause significant upheaval in society. Her counterargument is that society is already going to be significantly impacted anyway due to other events (making this a good time to push through other changes which are minor by comparison). Her statement also implies she's done extensive research about historical precedent for changes like this.

3) She's not dismissive of the concerns Dalinar (and Navani) bring up; however, she's already considered most of what they mention:

I don't know how she could have handled this better. Jasnah actively looks for counterarguments to her proposal. She responds to every objection brought up, and (implied) has data/research to back up her assertions. She acknowledges the potential problems with her proposal, but notes that the circumstances make it a good time for it and the alternatives are likely to be worse. She also leaves her plan to be criticized further.

Really, this is exactly how a good executive should act; as she notes, Jasnah is not asking for permission here, but she is genuinely open to objections she might not have considered. Dalinar doesn't provide anything she hasn't already considered (and it really seems implied that he hasn't spent a lot of time thinking or researching this) but she's willing to keep listening. She's decided on the goal (get rid of slavery) but is willing to accept help with/refine further the implementation ('figure out how to respond to such challenges').

I won't defend the Rushar scene here (I don't think her position there is nearly as solid, anyway), but I do want to clarify the point about Jasnah's argument (and it's an argument, not a discussion) with Kaladin in Oathbringer. I don't disagree with her position necessarily (or find it morally indefensible); the issue I have is that she makes a personal attack on Kaladin rather than the merits of the argument:

The main redeeming thing is that I think Jasnah would probably agree that it was out of line:

(for context, this is immediately after her encounter with Amaram)

Nevertheless, it's not a great look to be insulting your debate partner (even if it is in addition to addressing the point). It stood out to me because it seemed very out of character for Jasnah, although with RoW it might just be that Jasnah is actually much more emotional than she presents.

Those are some good points you bring up about her discussion on slavery with Dalinar and Navani.  You're right that she did consider Dalinar and Navani's opinions.  I didn't remember the specifics of that scene very well, just the general impression I got of it.  You're right to say she has already considered those ideas because she directly says as much.  To me at least, it just feels like she hasn't because in that discussion she says she's already considered them and won't discuss them further.  As a leader, you can't offer a chance to everyone who is skeptical of you to discuss your decisions in depth.  But Dalinar is important enough that he deserves a shot - and we as the readers also deserve a shot to hear a fleshed out discussion about the topic.  At least, that's what I would have preferred.  Jasnah did respond to his points, but her responses were pretty flimsy and generic for someone who is highly intelligent and so certain she is right.  So, I will grant you that we are told there's been a lot of thought put into this behind the scenes.  It just didn't come across (to me) in what we saw on screen.  I probably put more emphasis on that whole topic than I should just because it's something I find interesting in real world history.  It's probably not going to be a significant plot point in the overall SA story.

I didn't have an issue with her comment toward Kaladin at all.  I don't consider it an insult or personal attack and I don't think Kaladin took it as one.  It was an appropriate rebuke to him - he can't dismiss her proposed plan without considering it just because he doesn't like one part of its moral implications.  By choosing to spare the Singers, he may be condemning the humans to death and he was refusing to consider that part of the equation.

Her outburst toward Amaram though is the type of behavior that makes me dislike her character.  Not for the feminist reasons Jasnah herself gives, though she has a fair point on that too.  I give her a pass on that particular situation because there is obviously some very bad history between Jasnah and Amaram that we don't know about yet, so I expect once we know that her extreme disproportionate reaction toward him will make a lot more sense in context.  But out of context, it feels petty and spiteful which is what turns me off.  And in RoW, it feels like she's in that mode more often than not.  But, to be fair that's just my reading of it.  

On 12/18/2020 at 9:54 PM, Seloun said:

I would have to argue against Jasnah not expressing any uncertainty in RoW. I'm guessing that lot of this is influenced by her first major scene (where she 'kills' Ruthar), but I think it's not really representative of her throughout the book. I also don't think that it's accurate that she confides solely in Wit (though he does appear to be her main confidant at this point) - we see a couple of scenes where she does or is implied to have discussed matters with especially Dalinar (e.g. Ch. 17, 'A Proposal'); Dalinar's possession and building off of the contract for the duel of champions written by Wit/Jasnah seems to suggest he's familiar with (and presumably agrees with) the contents.

Also, her internal perspectives certainly express uncertainty or realization of error; the most significant or notable is the section immediately following her battle experience:

The other thing to note is that when Jasnah is expressing certainty during debates, it's likely a rhetorical device:

It's common in debate to present a particular position as firmly as possible (regardless of how much one personally agrees with the premise) to give the argument a fair shake. Being half-hearted about it may mean that the position was sound, but the debater was not, which makes it difficult to have confidence about the merits of the argument itself (as opposed to the person doing the arguing).

I actually thought Oathbringer was worse for how it presented Jasnah (e.g. kill all the parshmen/Heralds argument with Kaladin).

For me, the two scenes that were the worst for Jasnah were her "discussion" with Dalinar about Alethi political policy where she railroaded over him and refused to listen to any of his arguments or even acknowledge that they had any merit and the scene where she disposed of her political rival. 

It's one thing for her to run roughshod over some random person and ignore all their arguments as a debate tactic - but this is Dalinar who had been one of her closest confidants.  To ignore and dismiss what he had to say definitely made her a lot lower in my point of view.  This is a close friend and family member who has always treated you with dignity and respect even when others have not - you can still disagree with him, but you need to acknowledge his points have merit, acknowledge there's a possibility you may be wrong.  This is not a debate being held between political rivals, it's a discussion among friends.  If you're debating it to the maximum extent with a friend who is trying to offer you advice based on years of experience, then you're kind of being a jerk.

Her pseudo-murder of her political rival also turned me off significantly.  Not necessarily for the fact that it happened - but for how self-righteous she acted while doing it.  I think that scene was Sanderson's way of giving a nod to the fact that there's no way the other nobles/lighteyes would just accept her radical policies without a fight, but saying "yeah, we don't have time to do that plot justice so I'm ending it here."  Which I'm cool with - this isn't the story of the Alethi civil war, it's the story of the battle with Odium and the Fused.  The way it happened just felt very unpleasant for a lot of reasons that I have a hard time describing.  I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that even though she could have, she really did not defeat him openly with arguments and logic, she simply used underhanded tactics to maneuver him into a position where she could eliminate him because it was the most convenient way. In my view, the tactics she used completely undermined her moral superiority.

In terms of her battle scene - I think there's a key distinction between uncertainty and realizing errors.  This was realizing an error.  Had she entered the battle thinking about how she wasn't sure if this was really a good idea to kill so many people or if she had enough experience or the right temperament, but telling herself it was still the best logical course of action, I'd have thought a lot differently.  That kind of doubt and uncertainty is what would have made her a likable character in my eyes.  Instead, she entered the battle completely sure of herself - no doubts in her mind that slaughtering countless humans and common singers/parsh was a problem at all and only later realized her mistake.  (At least this was my memory of the scene, your quote makes me doubt my memory a little bit.) Instead of being likable, this makes her feel arrogant and her remorse after the fact feels like a justified punishment for her earlier bad actions rather than a moment to feel sympathy for her.

To me, Jasnah's arguments about killing the parshmen and/or Heralds in OB were much more justified and contextualized. We'd seen in WoK and WoR that she has spent years researching this very issue.  We also knew from her conversations with Shallan that it was a serious moral dilemma for her and that she was probably convinced of the answer for a while, but wasn't willing to say it because she didn't like the implications of what it would mean if she was right.  For her to come out and take the position she did in Oathbringer felt completely sympathetic to me because she had done the work and she had had the conversations to show us she was reluctant to do it, but that she was convinced it was the best way.  Even in that conversation, she acknowledged that Kaladin had a point (i.e. she felt compassion for the parshmen and/or heralds had value) but that his point was outweighed by the greater need to save the world.  Outside of that one debate scene in early OB, she was very sympathetic in agonizing over what she should do with Renarin - torn between decisive logic and emotion.

Anyway, to be clear I'm not a Jasnah hater in general.  I think in future books, I will probably like her again.  I just felt that her character was very unsympathetic during RoW.

I realize this thread has pretty well run its course, but just wanted to add for the OP's sake that I feel similarly that I like Jasnah significantly less after RoW.  For the first three books,  she wasn't a particularly favorite character for me but I like her for a lot of the reasons people have described so far in this thread.  Though I'm not female, I can also relate to her as someone who is a very logical person who can be easily misunderstood by others.  I know it's something that's even tougher for women to deal with since they are expected to be more emotive than men, but I can still relate.  Something that I think Jasnah and I share is that we naturally project confidence outwardly even if we don't actually feel it internally and people can sometimes mistake this for arrogance.

In WoK through OB she was portrayed as an intelligent, hyper competent person who thought about things in a nuanced way and recognized that even though she was one of the very best scholars in the world she could still be wrong.  She would not show that outwardly to most people, but to her close friends and family she was always open that even her best work might still be wrong because there was no way to know for sure and the things she was trying understand were extremely important with high risk if she wrong.  In the end, she was pretty much always right, but it felt like she "earned" being always right because you knew the work and emotional struggle she put into reaching her decisions.

In RoW, she lost that quality, imo.  She became 100% certain she was right and always knew what was best.  Even her closest friends and advisors, who she might have expressed doubts with in the past, no longer got to see any doubt or uncertainty.  In my opinion, this significantly detracts from her competence.  A person who doesn't consider the possibility they may be wrong is less competent that a person who does.  I think some of this may be the impact of her relationship with WIt, who she probably now confides in almost exclusively rather than Dalinar, Navani, Shallan, or others.  Maybe if we saw her conversations with Wit, we'd see her truly contemplating the best course of action and eventually becoming convinced this was the best path despite the fact that it's not a perfect strategy.  But we can only judge her based on what we see "on screen."  What we see on the page is that she is now convinced she is always 100% right and we no longer see her weigh the pros and cons of her actions.  The Jasnah of the first three books is someone I would like and respect were I to meet her in real life.  The Jasnah of RoW just seems unpleasant.  I admit, part of it is probably because I disagree with her radical style of politics (i.e. that she wants to make rapid and dramatic changes by royal decree) and that I don't feel the way it's been portrayed in the books is realistic.  But that's a topic that's been hashed out ad nauseum in other threads.

So, to sum up, OP you're not alone.  I think RoW made Jasnah significantly less sympathetic.  But I also think that she could easily recover in my eyes if we get more context to her decisions.  

I think the way RoW was written there is probably not going to be a romance arc for Kaladin in SA5.  With him appearing in the beginning of RoW having gotten interested in, dated, and been dumped by Lyn and having no romantic feelings for anyone I think it's just not in the cards.  Sanderson has decided not to go that way.  From his comments on Reddit and the general tone of RoW, Sanderson feels that Kaladin is not ready for a romantic relationship at this point in his life.  I think that's a reasonable and realistic decision, even if it isn't what I personally would have preferred. 

It also seems that I think Sanderson wants to de-emphasize romance from Kaladin's character.  Really, he's de-emphasizing all romance and personal relationships in favor of driving the plot along.  Someone posted this in the full book reaction thread, but I think it's spot on - Sanderson has painted himself into a corner by setting a rigid schedule for the events in his books.  In RoW, despite how long the book was it felt like there was no room for the characters to breathe.  It was just plot plot plot.  What was great about the earlier books was that each character really felt alive and was allowed to pursue things that weren't directly related to advancing the plot.  Kaladin's entire romance arc in WoR/OB was one of those things - something that totally made sense to arise from what happened but was not driving the plot forward.  In fact if anything, it had the potential to stall out key plot points (Kaladin breaking up the Adolin/Shallan engagement would have thrown off a lot of things had it actually happened).  Adolin's struggles with his desire to fit in with mainstream Alethi culture vs. having his father's approval and how he tries to relate to his friends at court, his random short lived romances in WoK, are good examples too.  Now, those kinds of things don't happen.  Adolin and Shallan have some decent scenes about their relationship, but those are primarily there to serve Shallan's mental health plot.  The new Hoid/Jasnah relationship exists but feels like a plot advancement convenience that came out of nowhere - now our heroes have a nice source of cosmere secrets.  There isn't time.  There are a limited number of pages left and we have to reach the end of the first major arc in SA5. 

I think it's OK to move away from spending time on stuff like this as the series moves on, I get that you can't just keep introducing new elements.  The main goal of the stormlight archive is to tell the story of the Knights Radiant and their battle against Odium.  We all want to see that story first and foremost.  I think what feels a little bad about Kaladin and his lack of romance is that it seems like the story is incomplete.  In WoR and OB, Kaladin wanted to meet someone to share his life with.  It didn't work out with Shallan, but he knew it was something he wanted still.  Now in RoW, he's not even interested in thinking about it.  I think maybe it would have felt better if there was a short scene where he talked with Syl about romance, maybe intentionally saying he was putting it on hold because of his failed relationship with Lyn.  Then it feels like a choice by Kaladin, rather than a Deus Ex Machina by Sanderson.

Veil didn't exist, at least not as an independent person.  She was an imaginary personality living inside Shallan's head that was created by mental illness.  She wasn't different from Shallan - Shallan's mental illness only made her perceive it that way.  Shallan came to terms with this in RoW - that both Veil and Radiant were imaginary personalities created by Shallan to cope with the trauma she had experienced in her life.  You saw her gradually accepting this fact throughout the whole book.  For example, there were multiple scenes where "The Three" admit to themselves that Veil really did not have years of experience as a spy, nor did Radiant have years of experience as a soldier or ruler - all they really had was Shallan's own personal experience and training.  Veil was just the part of Shallan who had the attitude that she could be good at spying.  Shallan's not ready to let go of Radiant yet (maybe she never will), but she was ready to let go of Veil.  

So take comfort that Veil didn't die - she lives on as a better integrated part of Shallan herself.  With the events of RoW, Shallan now remembers what she knew during WoR - that she herself is fully capable of doing cloak and dagger missions and that she likes to experience the life of the common people every now and again.  If you liked Veil, you'll see Shallan exhibiting some of Veil's characteristics going forward.

I recognize you (OP) probably viewed all this very differently from me and I respect that, but I think we should only view this as a positive.  The Veil personality itself wanted this event to happen.  If anyone wants to debate about whether what happened was medically accurate relative to real life DID, I'll leave that one up to the experts.  Personally, I was very happy with how this plot arc turned out.

Just now, IcaroRibeiro said:

Actually in both cases Dalinar winning or losing Rayse promised to stop the war. If Dalinar win, he got Alethkar and Herdaz back, otherwise the loses them 

What Rayse wants from him is to be his minion to fight against other shards 

End goal from Odium was never human extermination, just leaving Rosharan system. In the current Desoluation he's trying to overwhelming humans until a Bondsmith offer him freedom. He even promised to leave both Singers and Humans alone to make peace if Dalinar lose, as long he's unchained from the system 

Notice, Odium could just make such a proposal if humans were really terrified to lose, which lowkey is not happening currently 

When he saw he couldn't force Dalinar to freed him, he decided to given up his freedom and just finish the war with humans, collect what he could grooming a new general (Dalinar) to fight for him in his shards-wars.

You're right that one thing Odium (Rayse) wanted was to get free of Roshar.  But he has other equally important goals too.  His main overall goal is to destroy all other shards.  So he's made it clear that we wanted to destroy Honor and Cultivation beyond repair (including destroying all their spren) and then leave Roshar to destroy the rest of the Shards throughout the Cosmere.  Odium's end goal wasn't human extermination, but that was a likely side effect of his actual goal.  In the current Desolation, as in all Desolations, he's trying to destroy Honor and Cultivation's investure, which will have the result of freeing him.  He doesn't care about the Bondsmiths' ability to release him from the Oathpact, that's not his main objective.  If it's offered to him, then he would accept because it offers him a chance of early victory.  But he doesn't need to enter that kind of deal to win, the Radiants have to risk a lot in the deal because Odium knows he would win even without the deal.  This is how it's always been portrayed in the books.

Look at this from Dalinar's perspective - what is Dalinar trying to do?  What is the win state for Dalinar's side?  If Dalinar wins the contest of Champions, Odium will withdraw personally, but the Everstorm will remain and the Fused will continue to be immortal and unrelenting enemies.  So in terms of Dalinar's chances to win the overall war, defeating Odium's champion doesn't move the needle very much toward an actual victory.  It is essentially impossible for Dalinar to win the war, at best he can establish a secure perimeter and defend it from Fused incursions for all of time.

If Odium's champion wins, Dalinar has to become Odium's servant and it's implied he will be sent to other worlds to do Odium's bidding there.  So Odium gets Dalinar as his servant and gets one additional agent on other worlds.  But there are many men of Dalinar's caliber that are available to Odium and it's strongly implied he has agents and/or allies in other places in the Cosmere.  So Odium gains nothing significant by getting Dalinar - nothing he couldn't have gotten otherwise.  And Odium himself is still trapped on Roshar, unable to leave and fulfill his actual mission and he still has hundreds or thousands of years of warfare until the side of the Radiants is whittled down enough to allow him to fully destroy Honor and Cultivation.

So neither side really gains anything if they win.  If SA5 ends in either of those states - perpetual war with Odium on the sidelines or perpetual war with Odium on the sidelines and Dalinar forced to switch sides - it doesn't feel like a satisfying ending.

After thinking about this for a while, I think I'm with a lot of people - the book was good, but not one of the best of the series. I'd probably say from best to worst for it's ranked WoR, tWoK, with a tossup between RoW and OB for worst of the series.  A few thoughts:

The Good-

• Shallan's plot was pretty much exactly what I wanted for her - finally coming to terms with herself.
• In general I liked the Shadesmar arc.  I thought Adolin's resolution was also good.  Unlike some of those non-spoiler reviews, I didn't really think his arc was too convenient.
• I liked Kaladin's arc for the most part and the way he finally did reach the 4th Ideal.
• As much of an anti-cosmere bleedover guy as I am, I thought the cosmere integration was done well.  Hints that the greater cosmere is out there which the reader can pick up on, but the characters don't really understand it yet.
• Loved getting to see the Fused and understand them.
• I actually feel like I mostly got over my dislike of Szeth.  I think he was handled well in this book - Navani's POV early did a good job of pointing out that most people still don't really like Szeth.  But he still got to do some cool stuff and it was great to see him finally interact with his High Spren.

The Mixed-

• Navani's arc was good and seeing her interchanges with Raboniel were really cool.  But, did we really need an arc dedicated to the mechanisms that make fabrials work?  Personally, I'd have rather seen Venli and Rlain's roles increased and Navani's decreased.
• While this was a great book for Kaladin's personal, mental health journey it wasn't a great book for anything external to him.  What was so much fun before was seeing his new, interesting interactions with the world around him.  We lose that in this book for the most part.
• The interaction with Ishar was really odd.  It was kind of cool, but also felt strangely rushed.  It felt like something that should have been the focus of the Dalinar/Jasnah arc.  Make their arc about negotiations with Ishar where they have multiple meetings. 
• Mr. T reveal was definitely unexpected and an interesting twist, but also felt... strangely anticlimactic.  I think it would have felt better if either we hadn't seen him again after he ascends or if he'd ascended midway through the book and it had given us time to either really fear him or maybe think he'll be a kinder, gentler Odium.  Instead, we see him ascend, then poke his head out and do something kinda lame.

The Bad-

• The Dalinar/Jasnah "Group 3" arc kinda sucked, imo. Jasnah was mostly being a Mary Sue.  Dalinar was splitting time between worrying about the tower and doing a lot of thinking about his new role as Bondsmith.  The thinking and self reflection part was super important, but usually the backdrop for that kind of thinking is much more interesting in previous Stormlight books.  For example, large parts of Oathbringer were about Dalinar's personal growth and self reflection, but had the interesting background story of him trying to build a coalition of a bunch of bickering rival nations.  This time around, Dalinar's still working on growth, but the background is a ho hum battle where victory is a foregone conclusion.
• Venli really got short changed in "her" book.  It feels like the Navani/Raboniel interchanges should have been primarily through her eyes.  It felt like Venli was just kind of along for the ride throughout this whole book.  It also feels like she will play second fiddle going forward in the new faction.  So what will she actually do to justify her spot as one of the primary characters?
• The idea that Kaladin's primary arc in SA5 may be to provide mental health care to Ishar sounds terrible.  I really hope that this does not turn out to be the case.
• The epilogue just did not land at all for me.  It feels like we're supposed to be really emotionally invested in Hoid and this is supposed to be a huge blow.  But I don't really care about Hoid.  And what does this say about his capabilities?  Is he supposed to be a super human, all seeing dude?  If so, how does he get blindsided so easily?  If not, then why do we get all these hints that he is pretty much invincible?

The Big Question-

Where the heck do we go from here?  We've pretty much established that it doesn't matter who wins or loses in this next battle.  What is the actual goal?  Sure, lock Odium away for 1000 years, but endless war will continue with the Fused.  Or lose and Dalinar fights for the other side.  But war continues and Odium's still trapped.  It just feels like Sanderson may have painted himself into a corner a little bit.  I'm not losing faith, but I want to see our heroes fight a battle that feels like it matters.  Beating Odium can't be the end of SA5, because that was the end of SA4.  A duel between Dalinar and (an already defeated) Odium with minimal stakes for either side doesn't feel like a satisfying end to the SA front 5.  I'm sure Sanderson's got something really interesting in store for us, but it's hard to see what his vision might be at this point.

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

lol I just pictured him saying this. It fits.

Although maybe there's an anti-Wyndle cultivation spren out there who is more lenient on the whole touchy-feely stuff haha. "Forgotten? You know who's forgotten? ME I AM FORGOTTEN. Not even my children listen to me..."

Haha yeah now that would be great.  Third Oath: "I will listen to myself! The one who's been the most ignored of all!"

7 hours ago, Samrat said:

Lirin has more Truthwatcher to him than an Edgedancer....

TW attributes - Learned and Giving.

Knows surgery and teaches Kaladin....

Agreed - if Lirin does become a healing Radiant it's definitely Truthwatcher.  He's not the touchy-feely "listen to the forgotten" type.  If someone comes to him with an emotional hurt he's going to be more like, "Get over it kid, you survived!  Next!!!"  

53 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

All right, with the final RoW chapter, we can finally close the book on the groupings. They are:

Navani/Venli/Kaladin/Lift/Szeth

Shallan/Adolin

Dalinar/Jasnah.

If you had those groupings as your predictions, come on down and claim your tickets. (Who's the earliest person to call those groupings, I wonder? Can anyone beat July 26th?)

Brandon just said that Lift was moved out of the group 2 honorspren expedition during drafting, so that confirms her as a main character and explains why the earliest updates had the character split at 4/3/2, with later updates at 5/2/2. And Szeth was confirmed a while back.

Also of note is that Taravangian will be our interlude character.

I would argue based on what we read in today's chapter and the other info we have that group one won't include both Lift and Szeth. We know that Lift's and Szeth's only POVs will be in interludes, with Szeth maybe getting one POV in the "main" book.  I find it hard to imagine that the Group 1 characters would include two that don't have any POVs.  Could be wrong, but just seems odd.

I think only one of Szeth or Lift will be considered part of "Group 1".  Much as I argued against it earlier, I think it's Szeth.  He's one of the front 5 main characters so I think he'll play a role on screen without POVs during the presumed battle for Urithiru.  That will be his ticket out of jail.

I think the final spot will be filled by Renarin or a Knight Radiant in Urithiru who gets elevated to the secondary cast.  Maybe Sigzil or Teft, or maybe someone from a lesser known order.

Not that this matters much anymore.  Nor that I've been right on just about anything I've predicted before.  I'm excited for Tuesday.

50 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

did the Willshaper become a pirate?*

*fixed that for you. 

Doesn't that also play into comments Sanderson has made?  For example, a Skybreaker could swear to the Pirate Code?

I actually don't think it's that farfetched to say the Willshaper became a pirate.  It's a life of freedom and adventure after all.

I dunno - just finished reading Dawnshard and I'd say Lopen is still annoying as ever.  Nice that he's recognized he is annoying.  But he's not changing.  Maybe slightly toning down his lame humor, but not changing. 

What I thought was good was that his arc showed that just saying the words of an Ideal without truly meaning them is not going to grant you the Ideal.  That to achieve an ideal, it has to be meaningful.  The oaths have to be painful and difficult for the Radiant or they don't count.  It's relative.  So just saying he would protect even people he hates isn't enough because with his weird way of thinking he doesn't really hate people.  That Lopen is definitely still an immature oddball who had to recognize that about himself to progress.  And just like Kaladin and Teft and their struggles, he's still going to struggle with being an immature oddball even though he now knows it's hurting him and he's trying to do better.

I think Huio doesn't hate Lopen, he just hates the way Lopen acts.  He knows Lopen is not a bad person, but can't stand the way Lopen does things.  And he's probably thought to himself at different times that he'd be better off if he didn't have to spend all his time around Lopen.  I think in some ways, Huio is probably also jealous of Lopen - Huio seems like a quiet thoughtful guy who has a hard time expressing his true feelings, while Lopen just blurts everything out even it seems to be made up garbage most of the time.  But when he had that chance to be rid of Lopen, he still saved him even though it probably meant Lopen would act in an even more annoying way toward him.  

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

You appear to be talking about the pre-singer conquest Alethkar that no longer exists and is therefore not relevant to this discussion. As seen in this very chapter, Urithiru has become a melting pot where people are no longer organized and settled by princedoms. The camps on the Shattered Plains have lost their leadership,  are ripe for a take-over, and didn't have the kind of entrenched local customs that you bring up in the first place. We have no clue how things are in the territories in southern Alethkar that are still in human hands. In any case, Alethi society is already undergoing a huge, traumatic change, which distinguishes it from Austrian Empire of Joseph II's time, where people felt that he came and kicked over an anthill that was functioning more or less smoothly.

In the aforementioned diaries of Russian intellectuals, the Tsar et al. were popular even after the disaster that was the 1905. In fact, these people often remained quite loyalist even as late as 1916. And then - what change the next 4 or so years brought!

 

 

The circumstances are so wildly different that it isn't much like what happened in Austria at all. There is no hint of commoners in Urithiru being dissatisfied with Jasnah - in fact, the chapter where Kaladin goes out for drinks with Adolin and Shallan suggests the opposite. There is no hint of Jasnah trying to micromanage and centralise everything, like Joseph II did, or producing thousands of edicts in a short time, etc.

And of course, there was no equivalent to the displacement of a whole nation, an apocalyptic war against another species, and the most powerful and essential people for the military effort coming from the lowest class.

You want slow reforms, or maybe just for Jasnah to fail, but her failing in this particular undertaking doesn't fit the SA setting, IMHO. Alethi being able to successfully  hold out against Odium while practicing human slavery wouldn't be believable. Odium is hatred, and slavery is a very fertile ground for it to grow and fester. 

P.S. I do feel that it was a misstep for Jasnah to say that she was going to do it because of her ethical values, instead of enumerating all the rational reasons for why abolition of slavery is necessary in their situation. I hope that this is being saved for a scene where she wrangles the Highprinces on-screen.

I also feel that there should have been a much larger reaction and pushback to Dalinar's announcement that Almighty was dead, and because of that not worthy of being worshipped as a god (a very dubious idea by RL historical standards) than what we got, but religion is a tricky thing. It is difficult to understand why trying to implement changes to it IRL or coming up with a new one usually didn't work, but in rare cases was spectacularly successful in a short order.

And for that matter I feel that handling masses of refugees should have been a much greater problem for Alethkar -in-exile and featured prominently. Instead we only saw it in the singer-occupied territory.

You definitely bring up some good points.  I still think that some of the High Princes are not happy with how things have gone and have enough remaining support that they could make waves.  But, you're right that there are a lot of factors that would make it tougher for them to actually form a solid opposition.  

And a very good point about Dalinar's "The Almighty is Dead!" announcement.  That does seem like a much smaller reaction than it should have been when you think about it.  He was excommunicated from the church, it seems like that should have cost him a lot more with the common people, if not the other aristocracy.  The only reason in world it might not is because it seems like the Alethi are mostly secular and few were deeply religious.  This is kind of highlighted in some of Shallan's chapters in WoK and WoR where she expects the Alethi ardents to act much more like a traditional priest, and other people say that it's not really like that in Alethkar or other places.  In Kaladin's flashbacks it doesn't seem like the people in Hearthstone are super religious either, though that's probably tainted since Kaladin himself isn't super religious.

Yeah, I guess when you put it like that there's a decent chance Sanderson just won't focus on those kind of story elements.  He's done a little bit of the divided Alethkar thing with Sadeas so maybe he's done with it as a plotline.

I think it's Moash and/or Leshwi.  It's been a "frenemy" type character who gets the interludes in the past.  I think Moash would be the most interesting, being the outsider among the Fused.  

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

 

I just want to focus on the "might makes right" of Alethkar. Who is more mighty than Jasnah, ill list a couple of things about her here.

1. Queen of Alethkar

2. Well learned (perhaps one of the most on Roshar) she could be considered a polymath

3. Huge political acumen

4. Elsecaller of 4th or possibly 5th oath and has no issue showing off her surgebinding capabilities

5. only Elsecaller

6. A very practiced, capable and confident debater

7. Her soulcasting ability, she literally soul cast steps out if air.

 

If anyone is mighty it is Jasnah and as such, Alethkar will fold to her will as they closly follow "might makes right"

 

That's not really what I was talking about in terms of "Might Makes Right" and it's not exactly how that phrase works either.  It's not that people decide who they think might be the most individually powerful person and just let them lead everything unchallenged.  It's a cultural attitude - the idea that whoever wins the duel or the battle was the one who was right.  The Alethi culture is that if a High Prince thinks Jasnah is wrong, then the recourse is to politically out maneuver her, force her to fight them in battle, or challenge her or her champion to a duel.  There hasn't been a battle yet, Jasnah has not been tested as a political leader.  At least not on screen.

The Alethi are ambitious - so if one of the High Princes sees that there is discontent about Jasnah's new laws, then he or she will try to take advantage.  They will work in the background to undermine Jasnah and build up support around him/her self.  Maybe push to say that some of the Princedoms should be allowed to secede and become independent.  The prevailing culture, especially among the top aristocracy, is to do whatever they can to gain the smallest amount of additional wealth, power, or influence.  Some of the High Princes seem to have gotten past that, (Sebarial, Aladar, Hatham) but most are still down for the old school Alethi way.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yea, so:

"In Archaic Greece, Solon of Athens took the unique measure to cancel all debts, abolish debt slavery, and bring back those individuals who had been sold abroad. For this innovation, he drew on the tradition of periodic debt remission and liberation of debt slaves by royal decree in the empires of ancient Mesopotamia, about which he may have heard during his travels in the East. His poems about his legal reforms also display striking similarities with Near Eastern, and specifically Neo-Assyrian, official memorials. In contrast to debt slavery in the Near East, the practice at Athens was terminated forever, even though the custom of debt remission failed to become entrenched."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2972/hesperia.86.4.0607?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

I have previously mentioned abolition of enslavement of Roman citizens for any reason in 4th century B.C.

As you can see ancient, slave-holding societies were entirely capable of understanding that enslavement of own citizens was harmful to their social cohesion and defense potential. Solon pushed his measures through during a crisis, BTW, and they stuck.

But if you aren't enslaving your own people, but still relying on slave labor to some degree, you need to bring in slaves from outside. Which is something that other Coalition members would be actually likely to take issue with, not to mention that it would encourage piracy and banditry for the purpose of slave-taking. And then there is the elephant in the room which is that many modern singers don't want to fight the humans, but are terrified that not doing so would mean re-enslavement.

None of the above has anything to do with "the same moral compunctions as the US", but follows the internal logic of the setting (and RL precedents from ancient societies).

I think it's also important to recognize that Athens was an outlier politically during that period of history, and a relatively small power.  They were the most "progressive" government of that time.  So, yes you can say Athens did free its slaves.  But I don't think that Athens' political situation at that time is very comparable to the situation of Alethkar in RoW.  The king of Athens ruled only a small group of people who are not very diverse either demographically or geographically.  The culture of Athens was also a culture of ideas, philosophy, and debate to determine the best course of action.  Alethkar is a large nation with huge diversity both demographically and geographically.  There is a lot of power concentrated in the High Princes, who are basically a loose confederation of kings who swear fealty to a high king/queen.  Alethkar's culture is very much "might makes right" and a culture of ambition.  They are not culturally similar to a place like Athens.  It doesn't feel like Alethkar is the kind of place where an appeal to pragmatism and/or morality will win over the aristocracy or common people when it goes against their own personal interests.

You're right that opinions can change radically and quickly.  The Russian revolution(s) are a good example.  But in that case, for the common people to go from huge supporters of the Tsar to huge opponents of the Tsar took repeated and MASSIVE mistakes by the Tsar and his government.  The biggest example is Bloody Sunday where the conservative and pro-Tsar peasants came in large numbers to ask the Tsar to help them with what they considered failures by other leaders, only to be met with a violent crackdown.  Cracking down on your own supporters when they come begging you to make only very minor policy changes is about the worst possible move you can make and Nicholas made these same kinds of move multiple times.  A competent leader would have embraced these peasants and probably stopped the Revolution of 1905 right then and there.

What Jasnah is doing is a lot more like what happened in Austria - pushing for many radical reforms simultaneously in opposition to large parts of the aristocracy and common people.  She will face strong resistance to this.  Jasnah is a very smart person, but I think she is blinded by that in this case.  She's convinced (correctly) that her reforms are what is best for her people, but is ignoring what her people actually want.  She knows she is right, but is leaving out the human factor.  This is something she's already been shown to struggle with in the books - for example her decision to kill/spare Renarin.  She only spared him because she had a personal connection and was able to see how he really felt.  Had she not been given the chance to see Renarin's true feelings, she would have killed him and moved on without a second thought for other consequences such as likely pushback from Dalinar and Adolin.

We're going to see one of two things with this plotline, imo:

1) We see a moment of growth for Jasnah and we'll be shown how she learned from her confrontation with Renarin.  She takes people's feelings into account and has developed a plan that will implement her changes slowly and avoid major unrest.

2) We see Jasnah slipping back into old habits, pushing her reforms in quickly and without thought for how others will react.  This is a reinforcement to her of the lesson she learned with Renarin and once she sees the pushback she changes course to a more politically acceptable reform path.

@SpeakoftheDeval Agree completely - if you look at real history too much change too fast never lasts in a calm, peaceful way.  In fact, the only example that comes to mind of many radical changes lasting long term is the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire.  Julius Caesar claimed politically that he needed to be in power to implement reforms that would help the common people and he did get in office as Consul and then Dictator and implement these massive changes.  He was eventually assassinated, but his heir eventually won the resulting war of succession and kept most of the changes in place.  I think it's important to point out that Caesar was still assassinated even after the destructive civil wars between Gaius Marius and Sulla had pretty much purged all remaining strong leaders who could oppose him.  It was Caesar's own ally Pompey who led the opposition in his initial rise to power, then the seemingly cowed Senators who assassinated him.

I don't think that Sanderson will ignore this, even if some fans don't see it yet.  There will be a rebellion or at least major civil unrest in response to Jasnah's massive changes.  I think it will come as a surprise to the POV characters, because they are only looking at it in terms of objective right/wrong and morality.  The problem is that even if someone agrees with the morality of Jasnah's proposed changes they could still oppose them politically.  And there will be people who simply don't agree at all, or who agree but feel the changes should be implemented more slowly.  The only one who is savvy enough to see it is Navani, but she's majorly distracted and not focusing on internal Alethi politics.

I think the epigraph is clearly referencing the natural process of electricity.  The way electricity works is based on what is called "Potential Difference" aka - Voltage.  Create a potential difference and you will get voltage and current, causing power to flow.  And think about the name too - Stormlight - obvious ties to Lightning where we first learned about electricity in real life.  I think the epigraph is foreshadowing that Stormlight can be used a little bit like real world electricity.  I think we're on the path to seeing things like Stormlight wiring, etc to make all these fabrials in Urithiru work.  

2 hours ago, rosin_the_beau said:

Sorry for the clickbait, but not really.

The Lhan Interlude in WoR got me thinking. The Truthwatchers of old were the investigative journalists of the Knights, if I remember the description correctly, and Pai seems to be doing that in calling out Queen Aesudan.

I also think that Pai could be Pailiah, because the Truthwatchers were noted for their Tact, and the denunciation of the Queen lacked exactly that.

These are my conjectures, made in haste.

Wasn't Pai executed publicly at the end of that story?

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

The thing to remember is that the slave economy has probably already had a major crash- they just lost the Parshmen, after all. It probably needs major restructuring now anyway, so it makes sense for Jasnah to see an opportunity to here. 

Definitely a fair point - the labor market has already been overturned.  So it may be possible to accommodate more change.  Then again, removing all slave labor may collapse an already weakened system too.

@Rainier @Kingsdaughter613 - Looks like you are both on the same page with the Roman style slavery thought.  I agree - I even thought about including that in my post but deleted it for sake of not introducing too much stuff at once.  The Alethkar system of slavery is not the "most evil" version of slavery that we've seen, slaves still have certain rights.  It may make for an easier transition out of the slave economy since slaves are technically owed a wage already.

Without diving into a general discussion of Jasnah, I'll just say I think this is a good opportunity for her character.  Either she will prove that yet again she's a super genius who's thought of everything and has a plan to deal with all consequences or she will suffer a bit of a setback.  I personally think she is going to face a bit of pushback.  She's pushing a lot of changes - all motivated by the idea of doing what is right, for sure, but this is a lot to convince people about all at once.  People in general have a tendency to disagree about what is best for themselves.  We see it in the real world all the time.  I think we have to see at least some pushback.  It might be a pretty minor plot, but it seems like a very Odium thing to do to flame up a revolution over something like this.

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian!  Hopefully she starts estimating future policy impacts in terms of Utils/person/cost. 

Historically enlightened despots attempting to quickly enact widespread social reforms have not had much success. Hope it goes better for Queen Jasnah than it did for Emperor Joseph II.

I think her choice makes a certain amount of sense - make the change while everyone's already off kilter and don't allow them to re-entrench themselves into a new norm that doesn't fit what you want.  But I agree - rapid, widespread social reforms are generally a recipe for disaster.  They're usually the cause (or result) of civil war and revolution.

I can't see the slave owners (aka all or most members of the middle and upper classes) of Alethkar just sitting idly by while they are economically ruined by the loss of their slaves.  There are really only three options for freeing slaves:

1) Set slaves free, no money changes hands, resulting in the economic ruin of slaveholders who had invested large amounts of money into purchasing the slaves.  If you've got a certain political inclination, that probably sounds pretty good - raise up the common man and bring down the rich and powerful.  On the other hand, the destabilization of your economy collapsing when most major businesses simultaneously fail is a pretty big downside.

2) Set the slaves free, but require them to pay back a slave debt to their former masters.  This would prevent complete economic collapse, but would result in those slaves still being effectively slaves as they work to escape a debt they can never truly repay.  At least their children would be free.

3) Set the slaves free, with the former slave owners reimbursed by the government.  This could work, but probably depends on the financial state of the Alethkar kingdom.

I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one.  Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history.  I guess the easy way out would be for Navani to invent fabrials to take the place of the slaves and allow economies to continue by using machines to replace human labor.  But I hope it doesn't go that way.  I'd rather see Jasnah struggle with backlash to this - or cleverly defeat potential backlash.