GarrethGrey

2 hours ago, maxal said:

You are most definitely set into destroying every single action Adolin has ever done in order to steer back into the minor role you are determined to believe he is having.

And you're apparently determined to act like he's some major, important character, and he's just not.

I'm sorry, I know you love Adolin, but seriously, you read way too much into every little thing he does (Brandon has said, what we see is what we get with Adolin) and expect way too much in the future. You attempt to use other characters lack of a narrative thus far as fuel for your argument that Adolin will potentially become a major, more fleshed out character in the future, most notably, Jasnah and Renarin. Yes, they both haven't been particularly big parts of the narrative thus far, but we do know that they will be in the future, we know Brandon has a plans for them. With Adolin we only know he is not getting a book, and he's had what, 80k words throughout the entire series so far? I get wanting him to have a bigger role, I just don't see it happening, where does Brandon fit Adolin in? If anything I see him getting less page time the next two books, as Brandon has said he might have to cut down on some secondary character pov's to make room for Eshonai/Venli and Szeth. 

I don't want to make this a big deal, I'm not here to be the bad guy. I'm just trying to inject my own personal take here, I don't see what you and many others are seeing. Adolin is a very bland character, that has been used as a tool time and time again in our other characters narratives. Now if I'm wrong and Brandon has big plans for him, feel free to point me back here when it finally happens and say I told you so. I'm completely fine with that. But I refuse to believe Brandon has more planned for him when all the evidence says otherwise.

But fine, I just don't have the desire to continue this conversation. I'm not going to go through all your points (I certainly could) but honestly it will just end up wasting both our time, I'm not going to change how I see Adolin and neither are you. I truly hope you get everything you hope for with Adolin, and I hope I get everything I want from these books as well. I'm not your enemy, I'm not the bad guy out to get Adolin, I just don't see what you see.

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin helped. Adolin did the majority of the fighting. We see that fight from Kal's perspective, and for the majority of the fight, Kaladin is keeping one of the four busy, while one is tied up with Renarin, and Adolin is still fighting two on one and comes out on top. 

His performance was enough that despite the amazing crem we. See Kaladin do, no one comments on Kaladin's performance.

Yes, without the distraction, Adolin would have lost. This doesn't diminish Adolin's role.

Come on, Adolin in full plate and blade is losing, Kaladin, with no plate, no blade, jumps into the ring with just a spear, and goes toe to toe with a full shardbearer. Sorry, this has always been Kaladins moment, and Kaladins scene once he jumped into the ring. Adolin certainly played a role and his 2 v 1 win was impressive, but it doesn't deny the fact that without Kaladin, he does not win those Shards. Which was the original claim. Kaladin didn't win them either, If anything, it was a joint effort.

27 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And considering that the Sadeas forces possession (not turning, as the ones alive at the end stopped fighting) was a direct result of Adolin's actions, and a key factor in the climax of the book, I'd say that a fairly non-motorized role.

I feel like you're splitting hairs here, we were talking about accomplishments within the narrative. Adolins actions caused Sadeas forces to be possessed and turn on our good guys for a time, thats not exactly an accomplishment, although it did serve a larger narrative purpose (which could have been filled by pretty much anyone, still not sure why it had to be Adolin). And as far as Brandons comments on the matter go, he ends it with an "I think" not particularly definitive, and I'm not really sure how his comments pertain to the topic at hand anyway.

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

- pushed his father to confront his visions

- showed kaladin a good example of lighteyes

- won a half-dozen shards for the kholin

- rescued the narak battle

- killed eshonai in the aforementioned battle

- killed sadeas

- rescued adolin and shallan from their heroid BSOD in kholinar. in that specific case, it deserves mention that both kaladin and shallan had suffered a total breakdown and neither was capable of continuing. kaladin was catatonic. shallan was paralyzed with indecision. it took stable and pragmatic adolin to tell her to not trust an unmade and activate the oathgate (turned out to be the wrong choice, but without that specific knowledge trusting an enemy general is not a smart idea)

- helped kaladin get out of his despair.

- helped shallan a lot. I'm just rereading the part, and I get the strong impression that adolin is the force of stability that is keeping shallan together.

so yes, he's just a minor character who didn't accomplish anything relevant anyway

-Actually, he thought his father was going crazy. It was Navani who recognized his babbling as Dawnchant, and got behind him first, Adolin hopped on later.

-True, but come on now, thats not really an accomplishment.

-Actually, I'd argue Kaladin was the reason those shards were won. Without him, Adolin loses.

-I'll give you that, he was integral in a portion of the battle.

-Technically he didnt kill her, he just knocked her off a cliff, and I wouldn't say that really accomplished much (aside from her ultimately dying).

-Ahh yes, Sadeas. Yeah he killed him, murdered him in cold blood actually, in a dark hallway. I guess you could say he "accomplished" getting Sadeas' men to turn to Odium.

-Yes, Adolins presence as the side character who always knows what to do was useful here. Again, wouldn't say it was accomplishing much though.

-Not really? He basically just made sure Kaladin kept moving. Again, I don't see it as accomplishing much.

-Actually, Adolin is a big reason why Shallan is so fractured in the first place. What he's keeping together is actually Shallan the mask, not actually Shallan, as he's never really met her. (I'm willing to talk about this particular point if you want, feel free to PM me)

-So yes, he is just a minor character, who hasn't really accomplished anything relevant.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

What myself and other readers are trying to get at is Adolin has become a too important player within the narrative to keep on being tossed to the side each time someone else walks into the room.  So while you are arguing Jasnah does important things too without getting viewpoints, I will counter argue Jasnah doesn't do nearly half or even a third of the things Adolin accomplishes within the narrative. He is our main viewpoint during larger scale battles, he is one of our only action-oriented character (together with Kaladin): he is so entangled within the narrative, the story literally falls apart without his viewpoints. 

See, and what @agrabes is saying (I apologize if I'm wrong here), and I agree, is that Adolin is not, in fact, important to the overall narrative and is serving his purpose, as a side character. Yes, if you took him out of the books that were already written, they would fall apart, because obviously he's already part of those books and entangled within our main characters narratives. That does not necessarily mean he's important. As far as what he accomplishes in the narrarive...what exactly has he accomplished? 

1 hour ago, maxal said:

The thunderclast fight happened because of his initiative so, really, I do not get how Adolin's character can be read as one with no agency nor a significant contribution to the narrative other than providing a "third person's perspective". 

The thunderclast fight happened, because Brandon wanted to show how powerless someone like Adolin (who only had a shardblade) is now. In a world of Radiants and Fused, a normal guy like Adolin, even with a shardblade, can't really do much.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

And one of the reasons the romance arc has failed, in the eyes of a significant number of readers, is because Brandon didn't provide Adolin's thoughts on the matter. It might have worked, in Mistborn, to write a convincing love story without giving viewpoints to one of the character, but in SA, Adolin is just too important for his feelings to be skipped over. Little wonder Kaladin/Shallan remains very popular, despite the outcome of entire arc, because, at least, it isn't one-sided, because we get to read Kaladin's thoughts on the matter. Hence, once again, the lack of Adolin's viewpoints is harming the narrative. If I read the lingering discussions on the matter, one thing is absolutely clear: Brandon failed to convinced a significant percentage of his readers of both the romance arc and the Maya arc. Why? Because he didn't take the time to write more in-depth viewpoints for Adolin.

This I do actually agree with you to a certain extent. Though, I would hardly call "Maya" an arc at this point, where it goes in the future is anyone's guess. It could turn into a huge, character defining arc for Adolin, or it could come to or be nothing. There really wasnt enough in OB to call it an arc yet. But overall yes, this is a big reason why I don't particularly care for Adolins character anymore. We don't get inside his head, we don't know his feelings, he's primarily been used as a means to showcase and compare/contrast with our main characters. In a book full of complex and interesing characters, Adolin sticks out, in a bad way. I wish this wasn't the case, but it is.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

And yes, I do think the main characters had too many viewpoints, on average (not Kaladin, not in this book). Shallan's narrative dragged and repeated itself over and over again throughout the book: her perspective also is not always the most interesting one to read. In Kholinar, I would have traded half of her chapters just to get one Adolin's viewpoint on the situation. Focusing on just Shallan broke the pace and yielded a narrative arc which has been highly criticized. Of course, some readers loved it, but I have read too many critics of it to feel it was wrapped around in an optimum manner. Besides, sometimes less is better and when it comes to a character such as Shallan, less would have probably been better. Why? Because, IMHO, she just wasn't an interesting protagonist to have as the major one in OB. 

They are our main characters, theres a reason they get so much page time, this story in the front 5, is primarily theirs. And theres a reason Adolin does not, his narrative, as much as you might not like it, is not important. You didn't like Shallans narrative this book, well thats a bummer, but some of us did, some of us find her fascinating and complex and incredibly well written. Which is the complete opposite of Adolin at this point. Brandon obviously finds Shallan, Kaladin and Dalinars narratives as important, hence why they are the MC's. Adolin is like a seasoning that Brandon sprinkles into our other characters narratives, he's not meant to be important, he's not meant to have his own arc, he's not a main character. Once upon a time, after WoK, I was excited about Adolin too. Its been over 3,000 pages, 3 books, and 8 years since I flipped open WoK the first time, and the way he's presented within the narrative still hasnt changed. Adolin is still not important, Brandon himself has said he's not important. I don't think thats going to change. And if he's not important...why give him more page time? He's serving his purpose as is.

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I do believe Adolin's character arc was not written in an optimum manner within OB. Now how many additional words would have been needed to get a better one, it is hard to evaluate: maybe I am over-stating it, maybe not, but I do not understand why readers should be pleased and satisfied in having one of the most prominent character within the narrative to suffer insufficient characterization.

I agree with you again here, Adolin is not written well, and it is the primary reason I gave up on his character, and don't care about him anymore. But I'm not sure more page time will fix that. My thing is this: Brandon has made no promises regarding Adolin, if anything, he's told people to chill, he'll write what he wants to write. Knowing this, I don't have expectations for Adolin, I don't expect anything from Adolin. Again, Adolin is not and never has been a main character, he was never intended to drive the narrative, thats what our 3 actual main characters are for. Adolin can go 3 ways here, he can die (because he really serves no narrative purpose anymore aside from being Shallans husband and the normal guy). Brandon can expand his narrative and actually make him interesting (I doubt it, because why wait until the 4th book to do that?). Or, he can continue on as he has, never really doing much but being there, and letting us see the world and our Radiants through "normal" eyes.

@IronBars I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. Shallans childhood pre her mother's death is a mystery. Based off information we have on her parents and brothers, we can assume it wasn't all rosy and that there might have been issues. Adolins life pre his mothers death was probably pretty good for the most part. After his mothers death, it obviously wasn't that great. The fact that we are still comparing their childhoods is a little ridiculous, and its derailing the original intent of this thread. If anyone wants to continue this discussion, feel free to create a new thread for it.

I personally, as many of you know, do not think this is over. The ending of OB was very jarring to read, and left a bad taste in my mouth. This was not because Adolin "won" or anything like that. Brandon wrote the interactions between Shallan and Kaladin in a way that made them seem great together, Shallan seemed more herself, her whole self, around him. With Adolin, we didn't really get many moments or anything to indicate how he even felt about her.

We are told numerous times that Shallan "stuffing" things in the back of her head and not facing them is bad, and thats exactly what she does with Veil and Radiant at the end. They expressed an interest and desire for Kaladin and she stuffed them away, never actually coming to terms with and addressing those feelings. Then we have the "without you I fade" moment, which was beyond cringy, even Teshav rolls her eyes (which I felt was a nod from Brandon). I interpret the "without you I fade" line as Shallan being subconsciously literal, without Adolin, that "Shallan" mask would disappear, and she would be forced to confront herself and who she really is (which she clearly does not want to do).

Ok, hopefully we can get this thread back on track now 

40 minutes ago, maxal said:

These are canonized story elements, not interpretation of the narrative nor character analysis. I have also never stated Adolin's life was worst than Shallan, no one in their right state of mind could argue on this, but I have said Adolin's life wasn't the easy stroll in the park others were describing. His life, as described in the existing narrative, would be considered traumatizing by a majority of real-life people where Adolin a real-life man. I have a hard time reading and accepting living with an alcoholic parent is supposed to count for an "easy life" nor it supposedly not being traumatizing. Obviously, it doesn't seem like it left deep scars onto Adolin, this is true and I have acknowledged this, but it doesn't change the fact none it qualifies as an easy event-less life.

For the rest, I agree I am relying on my impressions which hardly counts as an argument, I acknowledge this. The point I was trying to raise was I don't think Shallan is as mysterious as she believes she is. This however remains my personal thoughts and it isn't backed down by textual evidence, I should have made this clearer.

As @BraidedRose so wonderfully pointed out, Adolin and Dalinars relationship was not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. He yelled at Adolin once when he was like 17 years old, while that must have sucked at the time, its not that big of a deal. And yeah, expectations for a prince are typically pretty high. I feel like you're trying really hard to make his life seem worse than it is, and I'm not sure why.

As for my interpretation of Adolins childhood, its allowed to be different than yours, I dont put much stock into this supposed crappy childhood he had; I don't think its that bad, while you think it's horrible, different interpretations. 

@maxal Yeah, I guess we're just reading Adolin wildly differently, I don't see most of the things you do (aside from his mothers death, I agree with you on that, it was bad). My biggest issue with your post was it seemed like you were saying Shallans childhood wasn't that bad, while Adolins was, and while I appreciate you admitting Shallans childhood was more traumatizing than Adolins, I still don't think his was really that traumatizing (again, aside from his mother being killed), so agree to disagree. Your intuiton says Adolin knows more about Shallan than we think, mine says he still doesn't know much of anything about her. But that's mostly because of how he's written, we really dont have any insight into his thoughts on Shallan (which is really weird, you'd think Brandon could throw a meaningful thought or two in there, especially if they were going to get married)

I appreciate the response, and apologize again for the sarcasm in my earlier post. As you love Adolin, I love Shallan, provided things keep going the way they ended in OB, I'm sure we'll have plenty to talk about in regards to these two in the future 

4 hours ago, maxal said:

I tend to agree with this commentary. I do agree Shallan isn't as complicated as she thinks she is nor is her backstory as messed up and she feels it is. Adolin's backstory too is horribly messed up. I tend to think he did figure out more of her than it shows because she really isn't the big mystery she believes she is.

Yeah I just don't understand this line of thinking at all. Shallans backstory isn't messed up? Adolins is horribly messed up? Shallan was forced to kill her mother in self defense when her mother tried to murder her. Then her father becomes an abusive psychopath who constantly beats her brothers, and in the end, she's forced to kill him too. But sure her backstory isn't messed up at all...

Then there's Adolin, everybody's resident handsome prince who gets along with everyone. In his horribly messed up childhood we have him growing up a pampered prince who gets the best of everything provided by Alethi society. His mother died while he was still fairly young, and he worshipped his father but never quite felt good enough for him. Yeah, he just had a horrible childhood...

Look, I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but lets be real here, Adolins backstory is a walk in the park compared to Shallans. Adolin did not have this horribly twisted and terrible childhood, he grew up as a rich prince, with that comes certain expectations, but nothing out of the ordinary for someone of his station.

And yes, Shallan is still quite the mystery. When did she originally bond Pattern? What caused her to break that first time she bonded him? We know nothing of her first 11 years of life. And for the record, I don't think Adolin has figured out jack about Shallan, he never even thinks about her. Where do you get this notion he's figured her out? If he had, he wouldn't be indulging Shallan in treating Veil and Radiant as different people.

There still seems to be some confusion in regards to Shallan and her "masks". While this topic has already been discussed at significant length, I'll try to explain it again here briefly. For starters, Shallan does not have multiple personalities, DID, OSDD, or any type of alter egos; Veil and Radiant are masks, but underneath those masks, it's still Shallan, hiding and lying to herself. We have a WoB that confirms this. Everything Shallan thinks, does, or says as Veil or Radiant, are things she's thinking, doing and saying as Shallan.

Throughout OB Shallan is systematically chopping off pieces of herself that she doesn't want or things she perceives as shortcomings in herself. We then later see these things she chops off, re-manifest in Veil or Radiant; a big example of this is her feelings for Kaladin, she goes from drawing passionate pictures of him, to basically reverting to how she was when she first met him, while at the same time, Veil suddenly had a very strong attraction to him. Coincidence? Not likely. The "Shallan" we see at the end of OB is just as much a mask as Veil and Radiant are, all three of them together make up the larger "whole" Shallan. Veil and Radiant are not the lie, the lie, is that Veil and Radiant are not her.

18 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't really think it's romantic, it's just that she reminds him of Tien a bit.

That's one thing I strongly disagree with. Tien was the most important person in Kaladins life, he loved him more than anyone. To have Shallan remind Kaladin of Tien, the most important person in his life, the only other person who could push away the darkness, and bring a light into his life, that screams that Shallan is incredibly special to Kaladin. You can argue that its a familial thing, but I just don't buy it. Just because someone reminds you of a family member, does not mean you can't love them romantically, especially in Kaladins case with Tien and Shallan.

I don't think he'll act on anything either, he'll most likely repress and deny his feelings (similar to what I feel Shallan is doing) and keep his distance from the the two of them. But I think its a little harsh to say all Kaladin feels is attraction, there is certainly more there. It started in the chasms, you don't have moments like that and just develop an attraction and nothing more. Add the chasms to Syl's insistence on him and Shallan, and Kaladins own admission that she pushes away the darkness, there is definitely more there. I really don't think we can take Kal's words at the end, that he didnt love her, at face value.

@Jofwu I guess my big thing with the wedding, was that we didn't see it. Seems an odd thing to just throw in at the end and not show? (Also, Shallan was acting very...odd before the wedding). I did however feel the exact same way you did, when I initially read that they got married, it seems very Brandon to have a wedding, and have that be the end of it.

As far as Kal's comment at the end, I don't really see it the same way. He says he "felt....agreement?" That question mark, at least in my interpretation is huge. Why bother with the question mark? It makes it seem like Kaladin doesn't know what to feel and he's trying to tell himself he's okay with it, when actually, he's not okay at all.

Everything that happened towards the end of the book, leading up to the wedding, is very subjective and theres a ton of different interpretations. Thats why its so fun to talk about.

@CrazyRioter Totally understand not wanting relationship drama to drag out, and being happy its over. Personally I detest triangles as well, fortunately, this one never really was, not in the traditional sense anyway, so there really wasn't any drama, aside from a few introspective moments from Shallan. If anything does happen in the future, I don't expect it to take forever and be full of drama, nobody wants that.

Sigh* Look, this thread is obviously going nowhere. Neither side is ever going to agree with the other side, my big issue is that everyone jumping on the "Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer" bandwagon, refuse to see any alternatives, any other possible reasons for what occurred. Thats fine, you dont want to look deeper, you want this potential plotline to happen, and have Adolin be a Radiant, whether that be because of realmatics (Maya revival) or love for Adolin (he becomes a Radiant). Many people have posited potential faults and issues with any potential revival and Adolin being an ED, they either get explained away (very poorly in my opinon) or not addressed at all. Thats fine too, but lets not pretend this is an actual discussion, where both sides are taking into account the others views.

I don't see a reason why Brandon can't tease readers with Maya stuff in OB and then not follow through with what many readers feel like (they?) Or Adolin are "owed". Brandon doesnt owe us or Adolin or any of our characters anything, so if this Maya thing comes to nothing, its because there wasn't a whole lot there to begin with. Maya attacking a fused, and being summoned in 7 hearbeats is certainly something, but lets stop pretending that those miniscule actions (one happened in Shadesmar, the other during the Perpendicularity) are more than enough to come to the conclusions that many are drawing here.

As I've stated before, something is or was happening with Maya, what that leads to is complete speculation at this point. There is absolutely zero evidence supporting Adolin reviving Maya and becoming an ED is the only possible conclusion. There are other alternatives and the idea the Brandon must do this because he teased some Maya stuff is a little entitled. Again, Adolin can most certainly revive and bond Maya, it can and might happen, but its also not the only thing that can potentially happen.

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

@StormingTexan got it right: I am not questioning why Adolin was not made a Radiant. I am questioning why the in-world characters aren't asking themselves why? They do not have our knowledge. They are barely aware of the "broken criteria", they don't really know why one is chosen and not another. It is odd there aren't asking themselves more questions.

My post has nothing to do with Adolin deserving it more than Renarin: it has to do with why Dalinar isn't thinking it. Why Renarin isn't thinking it. Not myself, they.

I never said Jasnah was not deserving, but we can't pretend she has anywhere near the field experience of Adolin nor his military knowledge. She can't. She isn't a soldier. She wasn't raised to be a soldier. No one we know in-world was raised to be a soldier like Adolin.

I think you completely misunderstood my post. 

Yep. This is exactly it. Why aren't they wondering about it? Why aren't they questioning why Renarin was picked? Sure we, the readers, are able to rationalize it, but in-world characters? Based on what they know? 

Those questions are unbelievably logical and yet, they were skipped.

It seems I did misunderstand a bit, my bad. However I do understand the question of why the characters don't question it, and I just don't think its relevant in world, right now. A desolation just started, the Radiants have just been refounded, the last thing on anybody's mind is why Adolin isn't one. They have bigger things to worry about than why Renarin or Jansah is a KR and Adolin isn't. I get the question, I get why the characters might want to question it, I just dont think its at the top of their priority list as to why Adolin specifically isn't a Radiant.

57 minutes ago, maxal said:

I don't know why you put this in spoilers, it wasn't required... I just wanted to say I did found it odd no one commented on the fact Adolin was not made a Radiants... Here they are, about the fight an endless battle against the Voidbringers and not one, besides Kaladin, of their Radiants is actually a field soldier, a general or someone having any valid military knowledge. Pretending Jasnah knows everything is cute and everything, but no way has she anywhere near a tenth of Adolin's field experience: the boy was raised in a warcamp.

I thought it was bizarre Dalinar didn't reflect on it, didn't wonder why her perfect son wasn't chosen while is sick one was. Or didn't think how useful it would be if one of those Radiants could have been a ranking officer... Or thinking it would be more useful to have Adolin have surges than little Lift.

On the squire comment though, it isn't just up to the Radiants to decide who becomes a squire... A squire first needs to become one and it is clear Adolin has no intention to turn himself into a squire. He admires the Radiants, but he thinks they are up there and he is down there. He is no squire because he doesn't want to emulate any of the Radiants, unlike every single other squire.

Maybe Adolin isnt a Radiant because he's hauling around a spren corpse everywhere? Or maybe he's just not cut out to be a Radiant? I like how you refer to Adolin as the "perfect" son who doesn't get to be a Radiant, but Renarin as the "sickly" one who does. So, because Adolin got to grow up strong, handsome, well liked, and was always daddy's favorite he's more deserving of being a Radiant than sickly Renarin, who's been ostracized his whole life because of his health? Right.

Then theres Jasnah, no one is pretending she knows everything, she's head and shoulders more intelligent than Adolin. And he's not actually a "boy" but a 23 year old man, and if hes so smart and capable, why doesn't he step up and do something, instead of you know, playing at fashion while everybody else actually does the work?

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

We have a WoB which states Adolin talking to Maya is significant. This isn't an opinion, but a fact.

True, but does that WoB state how its significant? Does it imply Adolin is going to revive his blade and bond it? No, it doesn't, just says its significant. Maybe its significant because it allowed Maya to speak her name during the perpendicularity. And thats it, nothing more.

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

You do not know the perpendicularity is having any effect, but we do know Adolin's behavior is having one. This is confirmed by WoB. Also, I find it a rather moot point to write an arc with Adolin having an interaction with Maya only to make it the by-product of the perpendicularity. On a narrative point of view, it makes literally no sense because the greater majority of readers aren't even going to think both events are related because there is nothing in the textual which suggest they are.

And you don't know that its not having any effect. Again we don't know what effect Adolins behavior is having, I would find it incredibly poor writing (and "make no sense" as you put it) to have the entire Recreance turned onto its head because one guy talks to his blade. Having the perpendicularity be at least partly responsible for what happened makes far more sense than just "Oh Adolin talks to his blade, therefore he's going to revive it and become a Radiant." Sometimes the text doesn't have to bash you over the head with whats going on, sometimes readers, have to really dig into the text to suss little details out.

Edit: After having seen the WoB in question (thanks @CrazyRioter) it doesn't even say 'significant', it just says it comes into play. Thats pretty ambiguous as to how important it will actually be.

Not to derail your theory, its an interesting one. But Brandon has already confirmed through a WoB, that Veil and Radiant aren't actually separate personalities. Underneath Veil and Radiant, its still Shallan. All the actions shes taking as those two, are actions she's taking as Shallan, they are essentially "masks" and she's just hiding behind them.

So when she finally accepts herself, and comes to terms with who she is and wants to be, Veil and Radiant will disappear, and we will be left with a healthy, whole Shallan, who doesn't need her masks anymore. 

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I actually wasn't aware you were directing that at me. Or I would have responded. 

Thats my bad, I never did direct anything to you specifically. I just assumed you had seen my posts.

But I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic, which is fine.

I don't think any Edgedancers are going to ever enjoy killing anyone, regardless of circumstances. I'm not calling Adolin a sadist, but him flying into a rage and murdering someone in a dark hallway, enjoying it, and not feeling bad about, it just doesn't sound like something an Edgedancer would ever do, and it does not matter how much Sadeas "deserved" it. If Adolin dueled, or fought Sadeas on the battlefield, its a completely different story, and even then, he should not enjoy it

@Calderis Again (this is the third time I've said this), I'm not saying they are complete pacifists. Its like you're purposefully ignoring what I'm saying. They can be deadly, they can be dangerous, that does not mean that they are running around wreaking havoc and killing everything in sight. They most certainly do not enjoy hurting and killing people.

Again, I'm not saying ED couldn't be "deadly" or not fight on the battlefield. What I am saying, is that they don't enjoy killing people, they dont want to be deadly killers. Do they have the skills to be deadly on a battlefield? Yes. Were they running around hacking and slashing their way through armies and enjoying it? No, I don't believe they were.

3 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

But we've also been told (Including by Nale who is a primary source on the matter) that some Edgedancers were present on battlefields and apparently considered quite dangerous. So obviously Edgedancers don't have to be pacifists.

Lift is one Edgedancer, and spren can differ in attitudes .

Ok yes, Edgedancers could be very dangerous on the battlefield. That does not however, mean that they enjoyed killing people, let alone relishing in the cold blooded murder of someone.

I jus don't understand. Sure, Adolin is a pretty great guy, especially for being a high ranking lighteyes. That does not however, make him ED material. Kaladin was just about to step in with the prostitute, but Adolin beat him to it, does that make Kal a potential ED too? Shallan was certainly trying to help people in Kholinar, does that make her a potential ED? Like, I get it, Adolin is an awesome guy, but let's not get carried away with praising him for every little thing he does. I mean, he murdered somebody in a fit of rage, and enjoyed it, thats not really something that embodies being an ED. 

I also don't see why the perpendicularity is being tossed aside as being the reason for her to be able to not only speak her name to him, but appear quicker than normal. It makes quite alot of sense, especially since they were so close to eachother in Shadesmar. I'm not saying nothing is happening with Maya (obviously something is), but thinking that this is a sure thing and that Adolin will revive her and become an ED just seems...a little much at this point.

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

Natural growth is not cultivated. A park is cultivated. A garden is cultivated. In a cultivated environment, you keep the things that you have designed, and you eliminate anything that is not necessary to the plan. 

Sadeas was particularly noxious weed. 

I'm having an incredibly hard time figuring out if you're being serious or not. So, its ok to murder people now, as long as they're seen as a "weed"?

This is really good, I'm actually surprised there's so much. I definitely felt like there have been moments between these two, but always read them as a budding bestfrienship. But when you lay it all out like that...there's quite a bit there, a few tweaks from Brandon, and a willingness to actually write a high profile gay romance, and bam, you've got it.

44 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Just make it a three-way relationship then.

I mean, I don't think Shallan would have too many complaints with that...

7 minutes ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

If I may ask, why is such a lot of people against the idea of Adolin or Navani being radiants because there are already tooo many Kholin radiants?

I feel there's a "reason" we're following this family. Maybe something in their past, too, aside from the fact that they're at the center of all the Radiant gathering lately, so surely, lots of sprens on and off. 

It doesn't bother me at all. Elhokar gone, the remaining Kholins are caring persons  

In my case, it's because Navani and Adolin are pretty much the only non-radiant pov's we have, Adolin being by far the most prominent non-radiant. If they become Radiants, then every single pov ends up becoming a Radiant pov. I personally am interested in the struggles of a non-radiant, in a radiant world. Especially in Adolins case, where him not being Radiant is kind of a big deal, because of his importance as a soldier before the desolation. 

As far as too many Kholin Radiants, becoming a Radiant isn't exactly easy, to have an entire family become one (5 with Navani and Adolin, 6 if Elhokar hadn't died) it seems a bit much, at least to me.

No no no, thats not a 10 year wait, thats like 15-25...*go's to cry in the corner*