Master_Moridin

So idk if this will mean anything to anyone's models, but I was rereading spanreed scenes and hit upon a thing that I think completely changed how we think of spanreeds.

(This is basically all copy pasted from messages I sent in Discord)

Shallan finds Tyn's spanreed blinking, and after setting it up and flipping the dial to indicate she's ready to receive...
It just hangs there immobile not moving, and Shallan assumes the person attempting to contact her stepped away
Which could mean  a couple things.
When set to the right setting a spanreed just, refuses to move unless moved by its pair, but that comes with complications.
Is the partner reed hanging in a rack? Then wont moving it move Shallan's out of position? Or is it able to move independently still while Shallan's is locked in place until the partner reed is set to the right setting?
(Perhaps the partner reed already is in correct position but is also hanging immobile, and will only move if the person moves it? I doubt this one)

--WoR Ch 42 btw

Aside from this, I went and broke back down how the settings if the spanreeds work.

So there's about 4 settings that we see from the perspective of someone receiving a message
Off, Request/Accept, Receiving, Sending

I assume that setting you switch to time accept someone's request is the same one they set their spanreed to to send said request, so that's why I have it labeled as I do.

It blinks in Off mode when someone is trying to contact you
Turns ruby one notch to acknowledge request, then after setting up board and putting reed in place, turns another notch
After the sender writing is finished, turn a notch to write a response, place back at the start location, then turn back to the previous notch

 --WoK Ch 28

the WoR scene only mentions Shallan turning the dial to indicate she had set up, and then the reed hangs there

I think it basically works like this:

You want to contact someone
Switch to what I call Request/Accept
When the person on the other end also switches to Request/Accept, I assume you get an indication.
Then, once theyve set up, they set themselves to Receive, and you get an indication.
Then you place your reed in the same spot, and switch to Send

Then you tradeoff back and forth to have a conversation

If conjoiners can be made to transmit in only one direction then that solves a couple problems with the ship and accidentally pulling and moving things

So there is a line in the Ars Arcanum, regarding there being limitations with paired fabrials.

Maybe they each have a partially fixed reference frame?

Like, maybe they both have a fixed reference for vertical and how they're angled relative to it?

So that when they sync themselves they do so relative to their angle to down?

I'm not sure if the math works on that atm, but the partial fixed frame has been bouncing around in my head.

Edit:

Just had a thought.

Spanreeds have a metal housing the gem is rotated in to turn it on and set settings.

What if the metal housing is how the gems coordinate their orientation?

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Secondly this discussion hinges a lot on the exact meaning of "turn around". Are they physically rotating the fabrial or does it have thills in front and back and they are just hitching chulls to the other end and switch to the reversers?

Well the precise quote is:

Quote

The end result was chulls that could pull for a while, then be turned around—the gemstones temporarily disjoined—to march back the other direction, as all the while the airship continued in a straight line.

So the chulls are being turned around and the gemstones temporarily disjoined.

To me that reads that the gemstones are then rejoined.

Just thinking about the chull lattice as it relates to the motion of the ship, I'm pretty certain there has to be some degree of reorientation (either automatically or with aluminum or whatever) to address that the ship's position and orientation relative to the planet is changing in a significant way compared to that of the chulls.

20 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

It works. but not the Shardblade part.

 

when gases go from high density to low density they get cold.

an example would be a Co2 Cartridge that gets cold and frosty as it is being drained.

when someone uses a lashing on something, the stormlight in them is going from a high concentration to a lower concentration and that could make the dew/frost.

Or even just the stormlight leaking from them could do it, if they were holding enough 

So I figure I should put together some examples because it...doesn't seem to just be what you suggest.

So, varyingly there's references to Radiants feeling cold when Stormlight...does something.

Grabbing the quotes would be excessive, so I'm just going to give some examples.

When Kaladin/Szeth infuse something, they feel cold as the Stormlight leaves them. Varying descriptions of skin feeling chilled, feeling a chill, and frost forming on them/their clothes or even in the air around them (the latter from Szeth Lashing the platform near the end of the WoK Prologue.

There are also references to feeling cold and frost forming when they Lash themselves, alongside descriptions of the Light leaving them (but no specifying of where the Light is going.)

Frost also forms on Kaladin's fingers at one point when he draws Stormlight in from a gem.

Kaladin feels a "jolt of coldness" through him upon impact after falling a great height. His Stormlight is described as coming out of his body in a visible burst.

At a couple points when Stormlight heals him frost forms on his skin and he feels the Stormlight drain from him, at one point specifying a bit later that he felt cold from the Stormlight he consumed. There's some language that seems to link the Stormlight that's seen flowing out of the wound as being what heals him, but it's unclear.

There are no references to frost in context of any other Radiants (save instances of Oath swearing). I want to say I remember scenes where Shallan feels cold, though I cannot find any atm.

Interesting thing to note: Kaladin notes that Stormlight he senses feels warm, and when it's inside of a Radiant it feels warm to them.

This quote might be of interest to the discussion here. (Bolding for emphasis)
 

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He held out a hand and summoned Oathbringer. It dropped into his hand, steaming and frosted,

-Way of Kings, Chapter 56

 

On 4/26/2020 at 4:14 AM, Oltux72 said:

But there is no physical light in Shadesmar. The shadows pointing the other way gets very hard to explain otherwise. Nor is the weather explainable. All those dark areas should heat up beyond touchability and there would be a strong wind at the coasts.

You've entirely missed the point of what I was saying. I made no mention of any kind about physical light or such.

Stormlight that is in the Physical, has no visual or illuminatory effect on the equivalent location in the Cognitive, nor do we observe it having a presence of any kind. As such, this theory,

On 4/21/2020 at 5:52 AM, Oltux72 said:

Yes, it illuminates stuff, but does that tell us that it is really physical reality? I would argue that it does not. It may spread in the CR and cause a sentient observer to notice other things.

does not hold up. That is what I was and have been saying.

Btw, as an aside, there *is* light in Shadesmar, or at least a form of illumination, given off by the sun and the flames that represent the souls of people. Also by any other light source, such as Stormlight that has been brought *into* the Cognitive, fires, etc.

3 hours ago, Confused said:

Master_Moridin, agreed. My point is that the energy (Investiture) transfers into the object through absorbed photons, not the ones that bounce off. That’s why “color” can’t be fuel. You and Brgst13 explain that process well.

None of the photons bounce off, all of the photons are absorbed.

12 hours ago, R J said:

When the Highstorm approaches, we see the spheres light up, but that could've been due to perception influencing the Cognitive and Stormlight is currency to the spren

When we are following a character who is in Shadesmar, any Stormlight that is in the same location in the Physical does not have a presence or effect in Shadesmar. That's what I was saying.

Shallan while Soulcasting the Wind's Pleasure is just an example I was using because it's called out there are infused gems in her cabin, in the Physical, but there is no reference or mention of the Stormlight from them having any effect on her surroundings in Shadesmar.

I honestly kinda figured it was a hint towards her deeper connection to Preservation.

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But you can bring spheres into the cognitive realm, and they continue to glow there.

I, yes? I was talking in reference to the proposal in OP that the illumination of  Stormlight in the Physical is just it spreading through the Cognitive.

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Have we ever seen an effect of the light from an infused gem that did not depend on a sentient observer? That is making a photograph under illumination of Stormlight or using it with a lens to start a fire?

Yes, it illuminates stuff, but does that tell us that it is really physical reality? I would argue that it does not. It may spread in the CR and cause a sentient observer to notice other things. How could we tell that apart? Does aluminium shine with the color of the spheres you illuminate it with?

If it is real light, the Thaylen gem archive is a time bomb. Light is energy. It will ultimately convert to heat. If a normal produces only a tenth of a watt, dozens of millions of gems will give you megawatts of heat. To do this in a closed building without much ventilation will create a job for the firefighters. And it has theoretical implications. Perfect gems will shine for centuries. That means that Stormlight can power end-neutral magic.

The Stormlight isn't present in the Cognitive. When Shallan is on the ship there are lamps in her room but no illumination related to them while she's in the Cognitive.

Important to note two things: Kaladin says you can't feel any heat from a sphere usually, and also Kaladin at one point describes the light of Stormlight as calm, almost cold.

We have WoB on how the change is actually occurring btw. It's a Spiritual change that reflects in the Physical.

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tallakahath

So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm.

tallakahath

So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

4 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

This makes perfect sense if of one of my theories. That Sibling is a collection of Guardian Sprens of Oathgates and a main one for Urithiru. The mural depicts the creation of Sibling.

Oathgates has two huge Sprens. These sprens are in in a gemstone. Thus each Oathgate is represented as one particular Spren making it 10, plus the Oathgate at Urithiru represented as 11th and the last one the Sibling itself which is the Spren for Urithiru itself.

One possible means of activating Sibling could be done after each of the Oathgate has been activated. Thus Sibling started to slumber once the Oathgate at Narak was used less and less. Maybe for Sibling's involvement all Oathgates have to be used periodically. At least most. 

 

Sorry to burst the bubble, but we already got an answer from Brandon, as outlined just...4+ posts above yours.

Quote

Color is the perception of reflected light. Objects absorb the other light wavelengths in the form of photons. Absorbed photons – the ones that don’t give off color – are all that’s left in the object.

This is not how this works. Photons do not continue to exist within a thing. They cease to exist as their energy is transferred to electrons/atoms.

Generally, what's happening is that all the light that hits an opaque object is absorbed but depending on the properties of the material and the frequencies absorbed, it'll emit new light at specific frequencies.

There's obviously more to it than that but that's the basic idea.

18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

of course they are.

everything in the SR is investiture.

that includes Connections

Actually, on this point at least, Confused is accurate.

Quote

 

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Just now, Karger said:

Yes and each of the bondsmith spren are a type of godspren that can she could understand were meant to be there by the grouping. 

 

I guess that's a way of interpretating it.

1 minute ago, Invocation said:

Yes. Gloryspren come to mind first.

The spren that appear around Shallan are creationspren and they don't look like Cryptics, and she says one of the spren on the wall looks like Pattern.

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Probably a grouping of the three unique spren. 

She specifically says ten kinds of spren.

Just now, Invocation said:

10 distinct kinds, 10 orders. Seems like one of each.

2 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Jumbled my last one. Here's what I meant: a mural with the lesser spren of the Bondsmiths on it.

You think it's murals of lesser spren?

Can we try and stay on topic xD

What's important about the mural is that, in addition to all the other art, there *are* murals of ten distinct kinds of spren. So what's that tenth mural of?

On 3/16/2020 at 7:55 AM, Mojonero said:

golden plate in the shape of a ship

So real quick note. That wasn't a golden plate. It was paint, and it marked the door they accessed the Wilg through.

Now, in general, I think all of this is some very interesting theorizing. There's three pieces of information though missing.

Feruchemical Duralumin is involved in making medallions.

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Questioner

Does creating unsealed metalmind involve Feruchemical duralumin?

Brandon Sanderson

(hesitating)...Yes. I will write it all out for you eventually. I want to get at least one more book done, then you find out exactly why and how

...

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

The method the medallions grabt powers throug uses same princies as the Honorblades (which is a shallow bond for reference)

(Ignore the blank quote, the mobile version of the site is proving a nightmare)

Quote

 

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Questioner

Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

And while I don't have a quotation on it, the primer cubes are very much devices themselves, their effect not just an inherent property. There's mention of an on/off switch.

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think she confused the Stormfather with the almighty and the Nightwatcher for a weird pagan thing. 

This is probably what I'd be settled on if it wasn't for the tree woman not looking anything like the Nightwatcher.

So I was looking back through the scene where Shallan and gang is hunting the Midnight Essence and they come across that room covered in art, and I noticed something.

Shallan says there are murals that depict 10 kinds of spren and guesses they're for each Order. There's just one small issue. There's 12 Radiant spren. The Bondsmiths have 3 unique spren.

The passage in question with the relevant portion bolded.

Quote

 

Gorgeous, intricate pictures of the Heralds---made of thousands of tiles---adorned the ceiling, each in a circular panel.

The art on the walls was more enigmatic. A solitary figure hovering above the ground before a large blue disc, arms stretched to the side as if to embrace it. Depictions of the Almighty in his traditional form as a cloud bursting with energy and light. A woman in the shape of a tree, hands spreading toward the sky and becoming branches. Who would have thought to find pagan symbols in the home of the Knights Radiant?

Other murals depicted shapes that reminded her of Pattern, windspren...ten kinds of spren. One for each order?

-Oathbringer, Chapter 29

 

So what do y'all think? Is there a representation of just one of the Bondsmith spren? Is it an abstract representstion of the idea of a Bondsmith spren? Is this a writing error and there was supposed to be 9, with the glowing cloud, tree woman, and figure in front of a circle intended to be the Bondsmith spren? Perhaps the Bondsmiths were supposed to be unrepresented?

I'm currently thinking either the second or third option, unsure though.

35 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Second, Braize has "Cognitive Shadows," which is what they call Spren on Roshar, but I don't think that they are actually Spren. Based on OB spoilers, I think they are the cognitive aspects of the fused, and whatever poor fools were stuck there. 

I was always under the impression that some of the spren mentioned in AU were voidspren.

On to the topic of the thread itself, I don't think Ashyn necessarily used spren.  The little we know of the system seems to me to be closer to how Aviar work, by bonding with a living creature.  Such a thing could still allow for a disease to grant great power, if the relative strength is dependent both on type of disease, and level of infection.  (So like, a super-virulent blood disease that's basically everywhere in the body)

I do think it's likely that the destruction of Ashyn and whatever's keeping the cities floating might be the result of an alternative implementation of the disease system though, as an accounting for the perceived extremeness of the effects.

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Personally I think it's more likely that a thin layer of stormlight is forming between both objects, producing a similar effect whereby the two surfaces aren't touching. Similar to when you oil something and it becomes slippery. 

I admit that this doesn't explain how it would increase friction. Perhaps though it's doing small full lashings, instead of fully sticking, just catching on the surface instead. 

I think this might be the best answer.  Whenever it's used to make something slippery, it just coats that surface in a perfectly smooth layer of stormlight.  Similarly, if Abrasion can increase friction, perhaps it just coats the surface in an incredibly rough layer of stormlight.

5 hours ago, Fatikis said:

I hadn't even considered that.  It actually makes far more sense.  I can't wait to see why Adonalsium was shattered.  A lot of good people participated in the shattering.  I've been trying to track down what Adonalsium means.  As to the other gods I assumed it was not just his name.

So far I'm confident that this is relevant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adon

Sium is a root that can mean to dream or slumber.  This may be relevant.
Alsium was an ancient city off the cost of Etruria.  I do not believe this to be relevant.
Al is interesting, but probably not related.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_(folklore)

Some language buffs might be able to track this down better than me.

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grampipon

Is Adonalsium taken from the Hebrew words for God, Adonai?

Brandon Sanderson

It is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183-stormlight-three-update-6/#e3914