BraidedRose

Thank you for adding this context and perspective to the discussion. I had not wanted to jump into the argument too much but I agree that it originated with a question of whether Adolin was likely to die in the next two books and I don’t see how whether or not he revives and bonds Maya has any bearing on that question. I see no reason why one would rule out the other, as you said they are not mutually exclusive. For my part, if Adolin bonds Maya I want it to be earned (it certainly isn’t so far but that doesn’t mean it won’t be). Part of earning it for me would likely mean intent on his part has to enter into it at some point. At the same time, if Adolin will die I want it to be meaningful to the story but I see no reason to think it wouldn’t be. And I don’t think his death has to mean that his part in the story was wasted. We’ve certainly seen that Brandon can create stories where a viewpoint character’s death has an enormous and lasting impact on other characters. I think a lot of arguing for or against either outcome in this thread seems to come from fear that it won’t be well developed or justified. I get some of those concerns but personally think we have reason to hope for better.

all right I’ll play along with that one. I love the relationship between Kal and Syl, it is easily one of my favorites (hence my avatar). But that said I’m firmly against any romance there. Leaving aside if it reasonable for a spren to be romantic I just don’t think it is necessary for there to be romance in this case. Their relationship is already special and awesome as is. As for Jasnah, if there really is no future for Shalladin I could get on board with this ship. On the surface they seem like a mismatch but it could be interesting and she certainly seems to regard him with some kind of interest (not necessarily romantic) and that says something coming from Jasnah.

I seem to have chosen a contentious moment to get caught back up with this thread. But I still feel compelled to dive in and try to take something of a (dangerous) middle ground on Adolin at least. First of all, @maxal I appreciate hearing your perspective an an Adolin lover on Shadolin as it stands so far. I think we agree so far as the romance being very one sided and in that way at least less than satisfying. One way which we disagree though is that I am gathering that you think it most likely that Brandon intended the romance to stand as is and are assuming therefore that he thought a one-sided romance would be satisfying in this instance. I am choosing to hope there is more to it. Of course we all risk letting our own perspectives color the way we interpret the text, and I know your reading was different, but for me the post below does some up why I think so: I don't have much to add to the above, I just thought it was another excellent summary for those of us who think there may be more to come and the ending we got in OB was not as straightforward as it may appear. On Adolin himself, it seems there is no exhausting the different perspectives on his character and perhaps for good reason. I would argue part of the reason for that is that there really isn't another character in SA that is on the same level of importance to compare him with. So far we seem to have Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar as the main protagonists. Adolin seems next in both page time and importance but clearly not on the same level as those three. Szeth, Jasnah and I suppose Navani are perhaps next, but they are all currently secondary characters with far less page time than Adolin (though that will presumably change for some of them of course). And everyone else is not even close. Adolin seems to occupy a lonely middle ground between primary and secondary characters, leaving the reader unsure whether to expect more or less of him. I would also add that because he is a "normal" character among powerful magic users and he is nice, funny, etc while being not well fleshed out in one direction or another he is very open to the reader projecting his or her own ideas and wishes onto. Not to pick on maxal again, but below is one example: I'm definitely not saying you are wrong here, your interpretation is perfectly valid, but since we are given next to no insight into Adolin's thoughts when he breaks up with Shallan there are probably a dozen other equally valid interpretations that would all rely more or less on the reader supplying their own thoughts into the moment (again because Brandon does not supply us with Adolin's). To be fair you did clearly state this was your perspective and I really only highlighted it to make a larger point I wanted to make about all readers being at risk of reading too much into Adolin that may or may not be there given his unique place in the story currently. I for one, don't think the problem is a lack of page time for Adolin, just that those POVs didn't get used to their full potential (whether deliberate or not). I see no reason why we couldn't have been given a clearer perspective on Adolin's feelings for Shallan for example, but we didn't. I have to assume that was deliberate. I have a hard time with the idea that Brandon honestly didn't think it necessary to provide more from Adolin (WoB to the contrary could be taken with a grain of salt as you rightly point out in other instances). After reading many speculative posts on Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, Adolin will go dark, Adolin will die, etc, I've come to the point of view that any of these are possible (and I don't think one rules out any of the others, though all three happening seems less likely). It is fun to speculate, and there are some hints for all, and probably in hindsight the foreshadowing will be clearer, but as it stands now it isn't clear enough. The one thing I don't believe is that Adolin has gotten this much page time just for him to continue to be a useful foil, Shallan's love interest, Dalinar's son, Kaladin's friend, without any meaningful arc of his own for the full 10 books. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Those who argue that Shallan made her choice to love Adolin and not Kaladin might be making a great argument if it weren't for Shallan's state when she made that choice. At least from my perspective she was in no position to do so. You make another great point about Shallan hating herself and therefore not being in position to really love someone else romantically. To add to that a little, perhaps she sees Adolin as being right for her because he "loves" the parts of her that she doesn't hate and has therefore allowed him to see. The other parts of herself she has systematically hidden bit by bit since she has known him. So with Adolin she gets to be only the "self" that she can accept and it helps her bury the rest that she herself can't deal with. I had to bring this back because I love the point you made and it is one of my pet peeves when someone tries to dismiss a pairing they don't like by saying the potential pairing reminds them of siblings. It's such a common argument that I agree is particularly weak. One last little point, I do have to question anyone arguing that Kaladin didn't have much reaction to Elhokar's death (or that he wouldn't have much reaction to Adolin's potential death). It really does seem like we are reading different books on that point, but others have already pointed out the relevant quotes there.

I always took it as deliberate that there was more than one allusion to Arthur, because of course you are right that Artur Halkwing is also a reference. Again, fitting with the theme that myths might be combinations and variations on real events. That’s such a funny story about Robert Jordan, I’m surprised I never heard that before!

Sorry, wasn’t sure whether my addition was acceptable and it turns out not, so I just deleted it (I can’t edit the image).

First of all, on people telling you to “get over it she made her choice,” ugh, those comments rile me up! People are allowed to have different opinions, so it frustrates me when someone feels the need to shut down conversation that way. Anyway, to try to answer your questions. I definitely think the impetus for a divorce, if there is going to be one, would likely stem from Shallan. I think the only way to really justify it would be for it to stem from Shallan confronting how much she was lying to herself and hiding significant parts of herself behind masks in OB. If she accepts herself as Wit was trying to encourage her to do and in the process realizes that her marriage was part of those lies, that would seem a legitimate reason for a divorce. As for Adolin, no I don’t think he would want it, although he did try to break it off with her right before they got married and we didn’t really see much from his point of view to fully explain why, so it is left open to interpretation how he really feels at this point. I’m not sure if it would be enough to “break” Adolin, simply because we haven’t really been shown that he is deeply in love with Shallan. But he is very invested in the relationship and it would likely be a huge blow, so perhaps it would, especially in combination with other blows that might be coming for him. For Shallan, I hope it would be part of a healing path if it does occur. The evidence for a frayed bond with Pattern is slim so far, but I still think it’s very likely to play out in the next book. Mainly because Shallan is lying to herself and believing her own lies which seems dangerous. A counter argument is that we don’t really know enough about how Lightweaver oaths work to be sure, but it seems a reasonable assumption that ignoring her Truths might have a similar effect to breaking an Oath. I suspect the evidence is thin for now because Brandon really didn’t want to start that plot line in OB, but set it up so it could escalate any time.

I don’t think there actually is meant to be a direct parallel to this relationship in WoT, rather there are countless references to Arthurian legend and characters with similar names. Arthur is similar to Al’Thor, Guinevere to Egwene Al’Vere, and Lancelot is similar to Lan, etc. But the story plays out very differently on the whole with similar elements throughout. I think this is to fit with the theme of time being circular and the idea of the past not being remembered accurately as it becomes myth, legend, etc. To the OP, I’m not sure whether this trio is meant to be a parallel, I don’t know the source material well enough. But there are definitely plenty of readers who have doubts that the rushed wedding we got in OB was really the end of this plot line. There certainly was a lot of foreshadowing for Kaladin that would seem to be dropped if it was.

Let me try to paraphrase and perhaps add a little to what you said here, because you helped me think about this in a slightly different way and I think it might fit best with what we know of Shallan. Shallan sees herself as full of flaws and she is pushing those parts of herself (or perhaps at least the things she thinks Adolin will see as flaws) into Veil. She feels guilty about her feelings for Kaladin. Perhaps made worse by Jasnah's chiding her for wandering eyes and her belief that it would hurt Adolin. So she starts to think that her feelings for Kaladin are a result of these flaws or that the feelings themselves are a flaw. All of that gets dumped on Veil as well. But then she sort of twists that around to make Kaladin the one who is flawed. Essentially she may be lying to herself more so than lying to Adolin when she gives this excuse, which I think is Shallan's biggest problem at the moment. By the way, at times trying to make myself work through Shallan's potential thought process makes my brain hurt!

Another really great point! We can’t really be expected to believe that Kaladin is “bad taste.” The worst that can be said of him is that he has a prejudice that he is actively working on overcoming. Yes, he suffers from depression, but it would be offensive to consider him “bad taste” for that reason. One could say he is not ready for a relationship if he wasn’t dealing with it, though currently he is, and by that measure obviously Shallan herself would not be ready, probably more so. But that is different from “bad.” Honestly what else could you really say that wouldn’t be twisting a positive into a negative or misunderstanding who Kaladin is? So could Shallan herself honestly misunderstand him so much that she actually thinks he is bad for all partners (not even just bad for her)? It doesn’t seem like it from her internal monologue about his qualities. The one possible alternative explanation I can think of is that the Shallan who says this is a mask that has separated from the parts of her that do understand Kaladin, so at that moment with a mistaken impression she does believe this. Or it’s like you said and this line is disingenuous. Or I suppose very lazy writing, but I doubt that.

Rlain I think is the best so far, but he's just starting to get developed. I actively disliked Venli prior to OB, but she's starting to get a real arc so that could be interesting. I still have my doubts about how interesting book 4 being heavy on Singer/Listener flashbacks will be. But there's at least a lot more to go on now than there was prior to OB, so keeping an open mind.

I agree totally that Adolin deserves better! I would actually say all three deserve better, but especially Adolin. He may not be my absolute favorite character because I think he is under developed but it is hard to understand why some hardcore Adolin fans are fully satisfied with this (though I know some are not). I agree with all of the points you make. I mentioned something similar about not showing the Thaylen city trip being deliberate a page or two back. Thanks for jumping in on page 87. I joined around page 60 something. There's been a surprising amount of interesting discussion all along, but as you might imagine after 87 pages lots of repetition too so I think new perspectives are appreciated. I feel very similarly. I'm surprised how much my dissatisfaction with this plot line has affected my overall view of OB, and that it is the element I have given the most thought to since finishing. I have started a re-read and I'm hoping I'll have a somewhat different impression of it the second time around and also to be able to focus more on some other aspects as well.

I pretty much agree with your take. When I got to the end of this plot line I was shocked at how rushed it felt, and how poorly justified the supposed happy ending seemed by what had come before. It left me with a really off feeling and a sense that the triangle had been poorly written. This thread gave me tons to think about in hopes that there may be something deeper to come. If it doesn’t take a significant turn, I will probably continue to feel the same. If Shadolin are endgame, there is still some chance I will soften my opinion as I generally enjoy both characters separately. It’s hard to imagine they will ever be my favorite couple, but that could be okay if some of the major issues discussed here are actually addressed in the next book. I think we may have pretty different overall impressions of this plot line, but I did want to comment on the point you brought up about Shallan loving Adolin. You are right, she absolutely does say it and in no uncertain terms at the end, so that shouldn’t be completely dismissed. That was part of what I found jarring actually, because at the time I remember thinking it seemed like a major leap from what she had thought about Adolin up to that point (plenty of thoughts about attraction but love I don’t remember). I’m still rereading though so maybe my impression will be different the second time. And if we look at WoB, it seems the intention was to show her in love with both Adolin and Kaladin (love seems a bit too strong to describe her feelings for either to me personally, but that could just be semantics). Anyway, I don’t want to repeat myself, but my biggest issues were with how Shallan’s mental state played into this throughout and especially at the conclusion, so that is what I really want to see addressed.

This line has been brought up in the thread before, as possible foreshadowing that Shallan believing her own lies, especially in the context of her identity and her relationship with Adolin, could imperil her bond with Pattern. So for what it’s worth I think many people here don’t think you’re reading too much into the line

On how much time Shallan and Kaladin have spent together, I want to dive into this a bit from a slightly different angle. I think it is really hard to argue that Shalladin have spent as much meaningful time together (on screen or off) as Shadolin have. Yes, both pairs have known each other for about the same length of time, but that is pretty meaningless. We can also argue about whether it makes sense that Shalladin have interacted less or not, but to me that kind of misses the point. Brandon could have chosen to have Shalladin interact more in OB, but he didn't. I think that was clearly deliberate, mainly because we have plenty of reason to believe that Brandon is not haphazard with his choices and even further, he specifically hinted at interactions that he chose not to show. You could say that he chose not to show them for space but I'm really not buying that. If that was the case, why even mention that Shallan and Kaladin flew together to Thaylen City? Why put Kaladin in one of Shallan's drawings, etc? It doesn't make sense in the context for those to be just random details. Let's assume Brandon knew he wanted to end this book with Shadolin getting married. A major question that this thread seems to be trying to answer is, how did he want us to feel about that? If he is telling a Shadolin love story I would expect him to want us to feel joyful that they came to an understanding, made a commitment and got a well earned moment of celebratory happiness. If he wanted that, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to have an unexplored romantic angle with Kaladin hanging over that moment. So if we think this is what Brandon was going for, I have to assume he felt that one significant conversation between Shalladin in this book was enough to show their incompatibility, and we didn't really need to see any more to know that Kaladin was wrong for Shallan or vice versa (even in the midst of plenty of other moments that show their pull towards each other). I guess some people do read it that way, but there were plenty of opportunities to make that much clearer and really sell Shallan's choice, but those chances were passed over in my view. Of course, the other possibility is that he still plans to show a Shalladin love story, in which case it would be hard to show a lot of interactions between Shalladin without that becoming clearer. If he had gone that route and still had the Shadolin wedding, essentially showing Shallan marry Adolin while it was clear she was in love with Kaladin, then I would expect the overwhelming response would have been that she made the wrong choice. Instead we have something more ambiguous. Many people have a lot of doubts about Shadolin's happiness in the future. Others are perhaps cautiously hopeful for them. But probably in most cases there is at least some uneasiness or uncertainty. Honestly, I'm mostly discounting the reactions of those who admittedly hate everything to do with love triangles (or romantic storylines in general). Those readers clearly seem to just be happy that this is "over" and aren't looking any deeper than they have to at that part of the story. To sum up, it's no accident that Shalladin didn't interact more in OB. I believe their lack of interaction was deliberate and informs how Brandon wanted us to react to Shadolin's wedding, with doubt rather than certainty that it was the right or wrong choice.

Overall, I really enjoyed Kaladin’s arc in OB. I was frustrated with his misunderstood conversation with Shallan about how she deals with her pain (but that isn’t surprising considering what Shallan didn’t say) and, as previously discussed, I hated how he claimed not to have feelings for her at the end (at first, since I don’t take it at face value now it’s fine). But other than that I really enjoyed his interactions with Syl especially, as well as Adolin, Shallan, Bridge 4 and others. I don’t mind that he didn’t get his 4th oath, it made sense, and maybe we get a big payoff for it later. Overall, his struggles in this book were fitting, and though they could be hard to read at times, I actually worried for him less than I did in WoK or WoR so I feel there has been important progress. Maybe I just had no worry left though after spending it all on Dalinar and Shallan!

@Ailvara I agree it is hard not to see Adolin as a Mary Sue at this point. There has also been a lot of discussion of this in the Adolin's breaking thread. I happen to have some hope that Adolin won't end up a Mary Sue and that his story may end up going somewhere more interesting, but unfortunately that's more based on a hunch (largely because it's hard for me to imagine why he has so many viewpoints for no real reason) than anything substantial. But I waver as to whether he may break, become a Radiant and have a triumphant story, or die and go tragic, or even go dark (or some combination of the three).

Elhokar’s death was definitely one of the most gut wrenching moments for me, especially since I would never have predicted such a strong reaction. I honestly didn’t think I cared about Elhokar but Brandon made me root for him in OB and then I honestly had to take a break from the book when he died, I was so emotional. I guess I like what happened too though, kudos to Brandon for making that moment so powerful.

I agree with your assessment, both about Adolin being set up for some kind of fall and with the secondary/tertiary distinctions. And to further my point (maybe more than it deserves), Adolin so far does have far more viewpoints than Jasnah and Szeth, both of whom we know will get flashbacks so will presumably increase significantly at some point. Again, maybe there’s no particular reason for that but it does seem a little odd since we know Adolin is not one of the ten flashback characters and is considered secondary.

Oh, I do get your point. I have read enough epic fantasy that I do understand the distinction. But SA seems to actually have relatively few viewpoint characters (especially if we exclude the one off interludes) and Adolin has way more than any other secondary character such as Navani or Jasnah. And if those are tertiary and Adolin is secondary than who else would we consider secondary? My point was pretty minor I guess. Maybe there really is no interesting reason for Adolin to have so many viewpoints for a secondary character, it’s just a hunch I have that maybe he will end up going in some surprising direction.

One of the things that is fascinating about this discussion (and any discussion of Adolin really) is that if we take Brandon at his word, Adolin was supposed to be a "what you see is what you get" character and yet clearly he isn't since the readers see so many different interpretations. The trouble I have when people argue that Adolin is broken because of his difficult childhood is that we see his perspective and I don't really see any evidence of it (unless we are supposed to believe Adolin is as unreliable a narrator as Shallan is, which I doubt). I think Adolin's childhood was damaging enough that he could have been broken by it, but it doesn't seem to have happened that way so far. I agree that broken doesn't necessarily have to mean not functioning, but Adolin doesn't even seem to approach that, he goes through some terrible things and really seems to shrug it off for the most part. So I think if Adolin is going to form a Nahel bond there are two options for it to seem justified to those of us that are not buying that he is broken so far. 1. There are a few things potentially on the horizon that could lead to Adolin's breaking on screen, including the truth about Evi's death, potential breakdown of his marriage to Shallan, repressed guilt over his murder of Sadeas. We could see any or all of these things play out and actually see the "breaking" of a character in a way that we haven't so far. 2. Adolin could be someone that forms a bond by being "open" rather than "broken" as @MonsterMetroid pointed out. I agree with @maxal that if this is the route it goes then we need to see more effort and intention on Adolin's part than just accidentally doing the right thing. I kind of prefer this option but I'm not someone who insists that Adolin should stay unbroken just because he is a nice guy. I want there to be stakes for him in this story too. Maybe neither of these things will happen because Adolin really is a secondary character and Brandon doesn't intend for him to have a complex arc. But I hope that Brandon sees that Adolin has evolved beyond his original intentions and gives him a meaningful storyline. Part of me questions that Adolin was really supposed to be so simple in the first place. Why make him a viewpoint character and give him as much page time as he has gotten for a secondary character if that was the case?

I agree with your post 100%. And I think it is likely that no matter which way this goes from here (including ones we probably can't imagine) some portion of the readers won't really be happy (Brandon even uses Wit to point that out). The way I look at it, when it comes to resolving what he started, Brandon either went for the super easy way or is going to go for the super hard way: 1. The super easy way: hand wave away Shalladin, stick with Shadolin 100% from here, which is a type of romance he has done in several variations before, no particular challenge there. 2. The super hard way: write Shalladin as the long game for the biggest emotional impact, and therefore, by necessity now, include the breakdown of an at least somewhat popular pairing (and possibly include a divorce which would have to be out of his comfort zone). I happen to think it is possible to do the super hard way and have it be justified and powerful, but not everyone will like it of course so he will have set himself up for quite the challenge. I'm sticking with my hope and belief that he is up to it for now!

I can certainly respect a difference of opinion on this point. And I'm not saying Shallan necessarily will decide not to stick it out in the scenario we are imagining. She might decide she does love Adolin. But if she feels she does not, it is hard for me to accept that sticking it out is the only valid choice. True, she isn't under an outside influence as far as we know but she does seem to be in an altered mental state. If a person who was severely depressed decided to get married to someone who they felt held them together and later they got treatment and realized they didn't love that person or the marriage wasn't right, divorce would seem justified. Also, on a related point, while I mainly put the responsibility for making a decision at the wrong time on Shallan, Adolin does bear some responsibility here too. Yes, he tried to get out of the betrothal at the end, and Shallan effectively manipulated him into marriage by appealing to him with need, but he did know that Shallan was having trouble with her identity and feelings at the time of their marriage and he didn't insist on waiting until she figured herself out. Divorce would undoubtedly be a tough subject for Brandon to handle, not in his comfort zone, but it could be an interesting challenge for him and as @GarrethGrey points out this is a unique case for sure. I suspect Brandon would go for divorce before he wrote an infidelity story, but that could just be my bias because I see infidelity as much more serious from a moral standpoint.

So this has of course been discussed before but this scene was actually the part of the ending of this arc in OB that bothered me the most (if we take it at face value). If we are supposed to believe that Kaladin actually has no romantic feelings for Shallan, how convenient for everyone, but from a narrative standpoint how boring and meaningless. I can accept the perspective that triangles just can't be done well (although I don't agree), but if that is Brandon's opinion then why would he even attempt one? Having Kaladin say this and mean it would be like hanging a neon sign saying, don't worry this wasn't actually a triangle (all preceding evidence to the contrary), so now we can all brush our hands and move on. If you are going to do a triangle well then there needs to be stakes for all three parties involved. Kaladin having no romantic feelings would mean he should never have been involved in that storyline at all. But, I don't take the scene at face value. I believe based on what we know about Kaladin it makes far more sense that he perceives that Shallan and Adolin are happy and because he cares about both of them he is stepping back and choosing to look at it from a perspective that will be less painful. Personally I hope that we see that it is difficult for him to do in the next book. Regardless of what happens between Shallan and Adolin in the future, if it turns out that Kaladin never cared then I will always see that as very poor writing. As for Shallan's oaths, for me personally, the most relevant point is that if the Shallan who made the oaths is not her full self because she has pushed more than half of herself into other personas, then the oaths are not really valid in the first place if she re-integrates. If Shallan finally accepts her full true self, as Wit sees her, and integrates the personas then she may question everything she did in her broken state. And if it turns out that her marriage is not still the right choice then ending it would be a perfectly valid decision.

@GarrethGrey I agree with you that how much I enjoy the likely Maya revival plot depends a lot on how it plays out. I hope it adds depth to Adolin’s character and isn’t as simple as Adolin being a nice guy that allows it to work. Given the depth of tragedy of the Recreance, I would hope undoing even a tiny piece of it would be hard won. I think there is great potential to the arc but it would require Adolin going deeper than he has so far to really work for me.

I fall in the camp that is expecting some kind of Maya revival plot line. Maybe Adolin won’t be successful, and it may or may not have major consequences for how the world sees the Recreance but I’d be shocked if it was just an Easter egg that doesn’t lead any further. I think there are quite a few strong indications for this that others have already pointed out, but I also wanted to go back to a point that I think led us in this direction to begin with. @Alderant mentioned that Adolin dying is on the table and I don’t believe that a Maya revival arc rules this out. Giving Adolin something significant of his own that he has achieved or is in the process of achieving could make his death even more tragic and perhaps add to the ripple effect. I don’t even necessarily think the revival arc rules out Adolin going dark as there is also speculation for, but I do think that is less likely and would only work if Adolin failed to revive Maya. I’m leaning toward Adolin succeeding because it would be such a triumphant moment, and then we may or may not have his tragic end afterwards. I just hope we don’t have another Elhokar moment where Adolin dies the second before Maya is revived, that would be too much for me!