BraidedRose

Super long post warning but I will put some parts behind a spoiler tag to make it a little more manageable. My opinion on this question has changed completely since I first finished OB. I believe a surface read of this aspect of the book would likely lead to one conclusion while in depth discussion and a very detailed reread has led me to another. Initially I thought it was over, Shadolin was the conclusion and to me it was an extremely dissatisfying one. It seemed as though Brandon chose the quickest, easiest way to end the love triangle (that never really was). This seems to be what a lot of readers actually were hoping for (a speedy, low drama end) so I can understand why if that is your view you wouldn’t want to look further at it. That’s not me however, so after much discussion and rereading I am now convinced it isn’t over and feel much more satisfied with the quality of this aspect of the story as a result. I’ll lay out some of the major reasons that convinced me that it isn’t over. If I had to sum it up in with one argument I would say that in order to see the ending of Shallan’s romantic arc in OB as satisfying, I believe it is necessary to accept that Adolin actually chose a whole, real Shallan when he squeezed her hand and she thought, “That’s the one. That’s the one I am. He knows.” If instead you believe as I do now that he actually chose the one personality that she had shown him and presented as her true self, it is much harder to see the wedding as a satisfying end to this arc. Honestly even if he had known and been able to identify a true, whole Shallan I still would have had a problem with the way it was written because it would depict Shallan as completely dependent on Adolin to know herself. But having it not even be her whole self is even worse. Let me explain in more detail from the text why I believe that the Shallan he recognized was not her whole self but a persona. So at the end Shallan (apparently the Shallan persona based on the above evidence) thinks that Veil and Radiant are not her, but is she correct? There is a lot of evidence both in text and out of text that Shallan is wrong. Most likely she knows this deep down, but is lying to herself and not facing things that she doesn’t want to, which is her usual pattern. So let’s look at the words of both Wit and Brandon for evidence that Veil and Radiant are actually Shallan. When Veil has her breakdown in Kholinar, and Wit tells her the story of the Girl Who Stood Up, he refers to the personas as Shallan’s “other minds” and that she is the one who “birthed them.” He shows her illusions of herself, including one that is standing which Shallan senses has all of her pain and memories, which have been smothered by, “Forgiveness. For herself.” Shallan says she cannot be that person, but Wit tells her, “I only see one woman here. And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it. It’s all right to hurt.” These words are echoed back to Shallan at an interesting time. In Part 4, she is drawing and realizes it is childish: “Veil was seeping out. That has always been you, Shallan. You just have to admit it, allow it.” This is a clear statement that Veil is Shallan, with Wit's words saying that is her coming immediately after Veil appears. As for the WoB, we have this: These indicate that Veil and Radiant are not separate people from Shallan and in fact he places Veil and Shallan on equal footing in the second quote as both are described as “personalities.” He doesn’t actually name which two personalities he means, but from the text it is clear that by the end the Veil personality is in love with Kaladin and the Shallan personality is in love with Adolin. Radiant is never said to be in love with anyone. Early on it is said that she likes Adolin and it is clear that Shallan has some intention that Radiant could be the perfect bride for Adolin but in the end Radiant also chooses Kaladin (though from a logical not emotional standpoint). So by the end Shallan has become the dominant personality, pushing Veil and Radiant (who both would choose Kaladin) to the side. She tells herself that they are not her but this conflicts with textual evidence and the WoB. There’s a lot more to break down in the pre-wedding scene but I will save that for another post because this is already too long. Suffice it to say when you really break down that scene there are some alarming indications that not all is well which provides some additional evidence that this isn’t over. In the end I just can’t believe that if Brandon wanted us to be satisfied with Shadolin that he would have written it this way. Again, I can understand how the immediate impression would be that Shadolin is end game, because they are married and Shallan says she loves him and she thinks that Adolin knows her, but a lot of that falls apart with further inspection. I definitely understand how people that aren’t that into romantic arcs in general or hate love triangles or really wanted Shadolin to begin with might view it differently, but the text has convinced me to change my mind on it.

I don’t exactly love the idea, but admittedly that’s mostly for personal preference reasons. Mainly, I don’t feel like Jasnah should feel the need to make a political marriage since she already has an heir (Gavinor). And if she was only doing it for political reasons, it might seem to undermine Jasnah as queen in her own right. On the other hand maybe she would use it as an a logical justification for something she wants to do anyway. But I guess I’d rather just see her with a consort if she wants one. That may be out of the norm for Alethi royalty, but Jasnah is unorthodox so it wouldn’t necessarily stop her, especially during a desolation. As for Kaladin, I can’t see him agreeing to a marriage for purely political reasons. I think there would have to be more for him. I love what @Vissy pointed out and I think there are a couple other small indications that Jasnah is impressed and maybe intrigued or even attracted to Kaladin. So far I don’t see any of that on his side, but that could change. He did have a relationship of some kind with Tarah so it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a marriage or nothing for him either.

I went into more detail in my last post, but to address this a little more specifically, I don’t think Maya is healing by some other means. I think the most likely explanation is that the small amount of consciousness that she retains as a deadeye is able to be expressed when the three realms are nearly one, and that she chooses to express herself to Adolin because she has developed a positive emotional response to him due to the way he treats her. As previously explained, this seems to be consistent with the WoB that tells us that deadeyes retain some consciousness and the Stormfather’s explanation to Dalinar that Oathbringer remembers him and hates him less than others (which shows that the consciousness they retain includes memory and emotion). All of that leads me to guess that it may not be necessary for Maya to have healed at this point, since there is another explanation I find plausible.

Let me try to summarize the arguments that I and others have made in this thread. First let me preface this by saying a couple of things. This is going to retread ground that has already been covered and I am well aware of the arguments on the other side. Also, the way I see it, people who are promoting the Nahel bond theory are operating under two assumptions: 1. Assumption #1: Maya must be healing in order to display the behaviors we saw in OB 2. Assumption #2: Only a Nahel bond is capable of healing a deadeye spren You may believe that there is sufficient evidence to support those assumptions or you may not, but they are both assumptions that have not been proven by the text as of yet so I will try to summarize why some people think one or both of those assumptions may be wrong. I will take them one at a time. Assumption #1: Every potentially unusual thing we see from Maya happens either in Shadesmar or after Dalinar summons the perpendicularity. Protecting Adolin from one of the Fused happens in Shadesmar. Adolin senses Maya's name and is able to summon her in 7 heartbeats during the perpendicularity. These are the primary three indications that something unusual could be happening with Maya. So the question is, could all of this be happening even if Maya is not healing? WoB tells us that deadeyes retain some consciousness. The exact extent of that consciousness is not stated so we are left to infer at this point. The Stormfather tells Dalinar that Oathbringer remembers him and hates him less than he hates others. That tells us that deadeye consciousness includes the ability to remember some things and to have an emotional response to specific humans. There is one unusual thing that is certainly happening between Maya and Adolin, which is that he talks to her like she has consciousness, he thanks her and treats her with what can best be called kindness. That is certainly different from what we have seen from other Shardbearers and it could be enough to change Maya's emotional response to him. That is consistent with what the Stormfather told Dalinar about Oathbringer, only to a greater extent because Adolin has developed a more personal relationship with his blade. Having a positive emotional response to Adolin could give her the motivation necessary to protect him from the Fused in Shadesmar and we don't know that a normal deadeyes would be incapable of doing so, but we can assume they would be unlikely to since in general they hate humans. As for the events that occur after perpendicularity, we know that the three realms are very close together at that point. We know that brought about a change in Taln's consciousness briefly. Taln's and Maya's situations are of course different but there are some similarities. In the case of Maya, WoB tells us that one of the things affected by the Nahel bond is ability to have sentience in the physical realm. Even after that has been lost when the bond is broken, again we are told they retain some consciousness in other realms. Given the closeness of the three realms at that point it makes sense that she may be able to have some small degree of consciousness in the physical realm. Or really for all intents and purposes they are not in the physical realm at that point, they are in a combination of the three. Adolin is able to sense some emotion from her and a word, her name he assumes, comes into his mind. That is a fairly small degree of consciousness being expressed and it seems plausible that the combination of Maya's positive feelings towards Adolin and the closeness of the realms would give her the desire and the ability to express what she does. I do believe the situation with Maya is unique because of the emotional relationship she has to Adolin, which is why we might not see other dead Shardblades choosing to do something similar. Though honestly which other viewpoint character could we have seen that from anyway? I believe the closeness of the realms also could explain her coming in 7 heartbeats. Perhaps there is even some choice involved on her part, knowing that Adolin needs her desperately at that point. That is speculative but either way I believe consistent with what we have seen so far: that Maya has a unique emotional response to Adolin and the realms are nearly one at that time. Assumption #2: Even if we assume Maya actually has to have healed to do all of the above, we don't know for sure that a Nahel bond would be required and we are actually told that just the normal process of speaking Oaths is not sufficient on its own. WoB states that reviving a deadeye spren is harder than just speaking Oaths and several other WoBs tell us that in most cases it would require the one who broke the Oath in the first place to do it. Adolin is not the one who broke the Oath and he has not made any Oaths yet himself so it is highly speculative to assume that a Nahel bond is already in the process of forming. Even if a Nahel bond is forming, WoB tells us it requires more than that (what exactly he does not say). WoB is soft canon to begin with but it is the majority of what we have to go on in this case. Beyond that we only know from the text that the normal progression of a Nahel bond involves Oaths. So any potential Nahel bond between Maya and Adolin could only be in its very earliest stages unless it follows a path we have never seen before. Personally I don't accept Assumption #1, I think it is possible for the unusual behavior to be explained without healing, so Assumption #2 is kind of moot. I don't have an alternative explanation for what has healed Maya because I think it more likely that she hasn't healed at this point. Any theory as to what would heal her is highly speculative anyway because we only know from WoB that it is harder than just saying Oaths (the normal progression of forming a Nahel bond). Anyway, I don't expect any of my explanations to change anyone's minds here, but I did want to try to put it all together since Jofwu asked.

Alderant is working on some chapters so there should be more to discuss soon

I thought of something I forgot to add earlier. I think it would be interesting to try to get a WoB on why it is that Syl was so encouraging for Kaladin to pursue Shallan. In this case it might even be interesting if we got a RAFO. Not sure what would be the best way to phrase it.

Not sure if I understand the direction you are going here, but it seems like you are suggesting there is something else (not destiny) that ties not only Shallan and Syl but others (Szeth, Dalinar) together? I'm not really seeing a particular connection between all of the characters you identified there, at least not as it relates to the WoB and the passage quoted in the OP. Also since you quoted a part of my previous post, I should clarify that in the part you quoted I was referring to the questioner using the word "destiny" in his question and then Brandon's response to that word. To me Brandon went in a surprising direction in his answer by including this anecdote about Syl appearing like Shallan. That to me suggested that when Brandon heard the word destiny he thought about Spiritual Realm Connections. I don't get the sense that he is writing "destiny' as a concept in which events are foreordained. I think if anything his version of destiny refers to just what he said, Connections in the Spiritual Realm that can manifest in the present even if they haven't happened yet because in the Spiritual Realm all time and place is one. It's a bit hard to wrap my mind around, but that's what makes the most sense to me from his answer and this example.

It's definitely fascinating that Brandon chose to reveal that detail on such an unrelated question. The word that seems to have sent him on that tangent is destiny. @Alderant's explanation of past, present and future occurring concurrently in the spiritual realm is a good theory for why "destiny" isn't quite the right word to explain the connection between Syl and Shallan (or by extension Kaladin and Shallan). But apparently their future connection is akin enough to destiny in his mind that it led him to what seems like a wholly unrelated answer. It seems like maybe Brandon specifically wanted to reveal that it was Shallan that Syl took the appearance of in that scene. In context, you could perhaps guess that is what was going on (Syl is talking about others becoming Radiant and we know Shallan is one of those, and we see Shallan on the ocean shore at the beginning of the next chapter) but you'd never be sure if Brandon hadn't confirmed it since the text is quite subtle. So basically I agree that it is significant that Syl pushes Kaladin towards Shallan so much and even at the end of OB she does not seem convinced that Shallan made her choice of Adolin. I relate that to what we've seen from Syl in the past, pushing Kaladin along his path as a Radiant, at times knowing what he needs to do when he does not. I think we see similar things from Pattern towards Shallan in OB, (though she doesn't listen to him for the most part). We've also seen Syl say that as she learns things it is like she always knew them, and there are indications that she "remembers" things related to Kaladin that she wasn't around for, so there seems to be a past connection as well.

@Calderis sorry, but again, I was not saying the perpendicularity (or stormlight or anything else for that matter) healed Maya. I’m saying I’m not convinced she needs to have been healed for her to speak faintly in Adolin’s mind under the circumstances we saw. We still have a difference, but I’m just clarifying what that difference is because you seem to be arguing against a point I didn’t make. You are arguing on that question, I was not. We are arguing on two different questions.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, there was a misunderstanding and the point I was trying to make is exactly what you said. Even though we have limited information about what is required to be an Edgedancer, I think we have enough that it is fine to speculate whether Adolin would fit them or not. But to say that it's only reasonable to speculate in one direction seems silly and and one-sided to me. To clarify a few other points where perhaps my meaning was misunderstood: @Calderis I understand you are saying you believe a Nahel bond is required for Adolin to have heard Maya speak faintly in his mind. I'm not convinced this is the case, though I understand the evidence you are using to support your idea. That is where we differ on the Taln discussion so I think we just have to agree to disagree on that. @Isilel I don't think what you and I were saying about using Lift as an example is actually that different. I addressed the part about why we didn't see any evidence of the spren of other dead Shardblades speaking to the ones they are bonded to in an earlier post, but I will expand. Number one there are some unique circumstances with Adolin and his blade which we haven't seen from other Shardbearers (he speaks to his and he just came through Shadesmar where he interacted with his deadeye and it becomes clear that she feels differently about Adolin than most deadeyes apparently feel). Finally, Adolin's is the only viewpoint we were given from someone who holds a dead Shardblade during the perpendicularity. So perhaps other deadeyes had the ability to speak faintly in the minds of the one bonded to them during the perpendicularity but didn't choose to do so because they hate their owners, or perhaps we just didn't get to see it happen with anyone but Adolin. I'm not sure I agree that in general we are arguing whether Adolin could or could not become an Edgedancer. Speaking for myself at least, that is not what I was arguing. In my mind of course it is a possibility, the question is whether I think it is probable, or put another way do I think that is what Brandon's intention was in showing us something unusual happening with Maya? You go through a great deal of arguments that I have read before so I get what has convinced you, and again I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I come at the whole question from a different perspective and I will briefly try to explain that just so I am clear. When I first finished OB, I did think it more likely that Maya was in the process of reviving. I didn't necessarily assume Adolin would become an Edgedancer because even if Maya were to heal fully, it seems that would still require an additional process so it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion, but I thought it more likely than I do now. After discussion on this board and considering it further, I became more convinced that the perpendicularity is a simpler explanation for the unusual interactions Adolin had with Maya in TC. It's a much greater leap to say that Maya is in the process of reviving and Adolin is in the process of becoming an Edgedancer, so while it is not impossible that is where Brandon is heading it would take a lot to be sure of that. Meanwhile, from a narrative perspective we have a simpler and perfectly viable option for why Brandon could have chosen to show those interactions (to help illustrate what what happening during the perpendicularity). Until we have more compelling evidence for something deeper happening I will go with the simpler explanation. I really come at this from a narrative perspective, as in why does Brandon choose to show this or that, to help me try to figure out where he is going from here. To take just one other example that is used as evidence for Adolin the Edgedancer. Why did Brandon choose to show Adolin helping the prostitute? I believe strongly that the primary reason he showed this was for Kaladin to witness a lighteyes displaying decency, treating a darkeyes with dignity, so that Kaladin could start to reassess his prejudices. Kaladin at that time believed all lighteyes to be terrible people, particularly high ranking lighteyed officers. So having Adolin go out of his way to help the darkeyed prostitute and treat her with kindness was a first and very important step in Kaladin getting over his hatred of lighteyes. The relationship between Adolin and Kaladin has progressed hugely since due to their subsequent interactions and they now have a pretty awesome friendship and Kaladin no longer hates lighteyes. Could there be a secondary reason for that scene in relationship to Adolin as a potential Edgedancer? Sure, but there's really no need for there to be from a narrative standpoint. From a narrative perspective I would like and expect to see Adolin have some kind of impact, but personally I don't feel it has to happen through him becoming a Radiant. I don't expect that he is going to do nothing but stay stagnant as Dalinar's son, Shallan's husband and Kaladin's friend for the next 7 books. But I don't get the sense that Brandon is writing another proto-Radiant arc for him. For instance, I love the idea that @PhineasGage brought in about a potential Greek tragedy like arc (I'm a former theatre major so I'm a sucker for classic tragedy), and I could see other possibilities as well.

You’re saying that we don’t really know for sure what makes someone Edgedancer material (I agree). But it’s okay to speculate that Adolin is Edgedancer material but not okay to speculate that he isn’t? It’s okay to compare him with Lift if you think they are alike but we shouldn’t compare him to Lift if we think they are different? I’m really trying to be fair but that’s honestly what I’m understanding you to be saying, and I’m kind of at a loss for how to respond further then. As for the Taln and Maya discussion, you aren’t saying Taln’s damage has been healed by the perpendicularity either so I’m not sure why we are assuming that Maya’s damage must have been healed by the perpendicularity (that certainly wasn’t what I was suggesting) in order for her to speak faintly in Adolin’s mind. We are kind of comparing apples to oranges with what is wrong with Taln and Maya anyway. I can’t say you’re wrong that it would work for Taln and not Maya due to the damage she has but it’s all supposition at this point. For what it’s worth I assume there is still damage to Maya whether it is the perpendicularity or a bond with Adolin (or both) that allowed her to speak to him. Maybe you are right that some readers not wanting Adolin to become a Radiant is affecting their opinions the way you say happened with you and Elhokar. But a lot of your arguments could just as easily be flipped around. Perhaps those that really want to see Adolin as a Radiant (or at least something consequential) are reading too much into equivocal evidence. We all have some bias, all we can do is try to be aware of it. But I see plenty of arguments against Adolin becoming an Edgedancer that are thoughtful and that don’t attack him in the way you are suggesting (and that’s even despite the fact that the Edgedancer theory appears to be far more popular than any alternative here). To be clear I got into this thread (perhaps foolishly) not because I had any intention of trying to convince people who are into the Edgedancer theory that they are wrong. I have no interest in doing that. No, I got pulled in because I saw what seemed to me some arguments being diminished or dismissed and I wanted to add my voice in defense of dissenting opinions. I hope anyone reading this will give some thought to that, but I think I’m going to stop here because in my mind we’re at risk of derailing the thread.

But it doesn't bother you when people try to argue that Adolin is Edgedancer material when we don't know what that is? Lift is only one data point so we shouldn't give her too much weight, not all Edgedancers will be just like her. But she provides an important set of information that Brandon has chosen to show us, so why shouldn't she be considered? The rest of what you said I think leans heavily on your interpretation of the WoB you quoted earlier. Let's assume you are right and the piece of her soul (which is Spiritual) that has been ripped away is the Nahel bond. Brandon does state that the bond is what gives them the ability to have sentience in the physical plane. So the damage to her Spiritual self, causes a loss of Cognitive function (she is "mostly mindless"). You argue that Taln is damaged Cognitively but the closeness of the Spiritual and Physical planes allows that Cognitive damage to be bypassed. Why not something similar then with Maya, the closeness of the planes allows some of her Spiritual damage to be bypassed? To be honest I don't know if that is how it worked for Taln or Maya. I think we are making some huge leaps here based on a WoB that just isn't that explicit in exactly how it works. But either way I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

My point is that the arguments being made are not all "Adolin can't be an Edgedancer because I can't envision him as one," there are arguments that go beyond that in scope, but the sentence of yours I highlighted before as well as parts of the above seem to be made to diminish those arguments. I highlighted @PhineasGage's post because I thought it was a good example of someone addressing why they didn't feel Adolin is Edgedancer material with more in-depth discussion. So I'm not really sure if your points about all the other characters and how well they fit their orders was directed in response to my post or not but I will try to address that from my perspective. The way I see it is that it is all subjective and depends on how a reader interprets the ideals of each order and the qualities of each character. The exact roles and characteristics of each order are only partly known to us and of course each will not be a uniform bunch but be made up of individuals. The characters you mention are known Knights Radiant. In Adolin's case it is different because he is not at this point an Edgedancer and it remains an open question whether he will be. For readers trying to figure out if that is Brandon's intention, it makes sense to analyze whether Adolin fits what we know of Edgedancers (of which Lift is our primary example) along with other evidence. Other people have come to a different conclusion than you but that doesn't mean they are not examining the evidence with as much care. I for one am not saying that he "can't, one day" become an Egdedancer. I'm saying that upon closer examination, I find the evidence that he will to be less convincing. So as it stands now, I am not expecting that he will. Future evidence may well change my mind on that. To flip it around, at this point I find it a stretch to say that it is a certainty that he will, but you are of course free to feel differently about that. A lot of what is being expressed here on both sides are feelings, hunches, interpretations, which is perfectly fine but one person's feelings do not negate any others. Finally everything that happens before the perpendicularity is when Adolin and Maya are in Shadesmar so I see that as also being a special case. As for everything that happens immediately after I would point you to Jasnah and Ivory's discussion in chapter 120, page 1151 where they make clear that the three realms are close not only in the moment of Dalinar creating the column of light but for a period of time afterward. To quote in part: "This place is three, still," he said. "Almost three." "Or three places are nearly one," Jasnah replied. later: "Three worlds," Ivory said. "Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close." "Then let's make use of it before it fades, shall we?"

I'm going to attempt to add to the discussion. But it does feel a little like battle lines are being drawn here, so I hope we can all at least acknowledge that there are different interpretations possible for what is happening with Maya and where that will go from here. We do not have enough knowledge at this point to be certain we know what is or isn't happening. So let me first acknowledge that I understand why some think that what we have seen with Maya means that Adolin will become an Edgedancer. I won't deny that it is one possibility, but if so, there would be a lot of steps to get there from here (best guess it would have to include Adolin swearing oaths, Maya regaining full consciousness, a Nahel bond forming between them). I think some valid arguments against all that happening have been made here and elsewhere. The number one in my mind is that, from what we have seen so far, everything unusual happening with Maya has been either in Shadesmar or after Dalinar summoned Honor's Perpendicularity. If I am forgetting an instance that takes place in other times/places please feel free to point that out. Therefore it could be that Brandon wrote that (along with Taln's lucidity) to illustrate what was happening with the realms during the perpendicularity. The reason Adolin's was the only blade we saw this happening with could be two fold: he is our main (only?) viewpoint character with a dead Shardblade, and he has some unique circumstances with his (a long time of treating it differently than other shardbearers and a recent trip to Shadesmar). @Calderis I believe you are saying you are sure we will see Adolin revive Maya and become an Edgedancer because of the WoB you quoted? If so I have to say I think his words leave a lot of room for doubt to me. "I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult." Obviously he's saying it is possible but very difficult and I'm just trying to point out his words are very open to interpretation when it comes to what will happen. I feel like this statement reduces very detailed arguments being made such as the one by @PhineasGage earlier in this thread. Maybe that wasn't your intention, but my point is that even in this thread people are offering a detailed breakdown of why they don't find the currently available evidence compelling enough to be convinced Adolin will be an Edgedancer. That is more than just saying "I can't picture him as one." You may have looked at the same evidence and found it compelling and that's an equally valid opinion so I am not saying you must be wrong, only that I'm concerned about being dismissive of different opinions.

You make a good point here and I do think narrative purpose is a worthwhile lens to consider. I tend to agree with you that it doesn't serve an important narrative purpose for Navani to become a Radiant. She has her own potentially crucial skills that she brings to the table. And beyond that she doesn't need to have surgebinding to kick chull. Navani deserves some mad props for holding all the chull dung together while Dalinar had his most recent break down, for example. That definitely gave me a new appreciation for her.

Love the analysis @Dreamstorm! It's a fun ship and I think if Brandon actually wanted to go in that direction it would be totally plausible based on the relationship he has written between them so far. Honestly, the only Devil's advocate argument I can come up with in text is that there really isn't anything that suggests to me that Kaladin would be romantically interested in men. Adolin on the other hand I honestly do see a lot more textual basis for him being attracted to men (including the fact that his thoughts about Kaladin in OB are much more likely to make someone swoon than his thoughts about Shallan in OB ). To be clear, I don't actually think that is Brandon's intention (kind of too bad it isn't because the story you've outlined would be compelling to read even if it were one sided) but I think it could easily be a viable explanation for why Adolin has so many failed relationships with women and often seems ambivalent to those relationships progressing.

This analysis has actually reminded me of how devout Shallan was at the beginning. There seemed to be a lot less emphasis on that aspect of her character in OB although the only specific example I can think of now is her forgetting to burn a prayer before her wedding. I'm wondering if there has been a gradual lessening of her religious devotion as she has gotten out in the world or if all the fracturing that was happening with her personality in OB is just obscuring her faith. Another thought I had was that Brandon partially played up Shallan's faith in the beginning as a contrast to Jasnah. It will be interesting to see if Alderant is able to notice a change prior to OB but it is noticeable to me at least from the start of WoK to the end of OB.

@Alderant responded before I could and basically already clarified my point but I was saying that dismissing the value of those conversations was happening outside the ASK thread, not in it. Thus closing it worsened that particular problem rather than solving it. But I appreciate what you are saying about reporting those instances and I will look to do so if necessary in the future. I basically agree with everything Alderant said here and would co-sign this post if I could. That's one way to look at it and I can see why that might be a concern, but on the flip side creating a place that is set aside for in depth character discussion could be seen as building it into the fabric of the community in an official way so it's not automatically negative. I certainly don't want it to be seen as "out of the way" but just because there is a dedicated board doesn't mean there has to be complete separation as Alderant pointed out so well above. @Comatose your summary of this overall discussion is helpful and appreciated. I am glad that this conversation is happening because it seems that there are several problems that have been brewing for some time. The people who are upset here, I believe, have reason to be. I don't believe anyone is trying to be difficult or stir up drama, people just want to be heard and see their concerns addressed with positive changes now that these issues have been brought to a head.

Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t saying there is anything wrong with not wanting to participate in relationship discussions. That seems to be a popular opinion, but unfortunately often accompanied by a trivialization of what’s involved in those discussions. I don’t like the word shipping either. It has a negative connotation of fan wars and a lack of critical thinking. I don’t like that any discussion involving relationships gets categorized that way, but that seems to be the way of things. Essentially, discussion of Shallan’s progression as a KR, her Lightweaving abilities, etc, are all fine. But if I want to discuss her motivations for choosing Adolin, how her relationship status at the end of OB might be affecting her mental state or her bond with Pattern, or what it might mean for her character development, that is all “shipping” and as such easily dismissed. Because so many people shut down when those sorts of topics are broached it can be hard to know where/when it is acceptable to discuss them, especially now. A lot of people are now saying to start those topics in new threads (which is a new sentiment I never saw before the ASK thread closed). Which is fine, but I was pointing out the context of attitudes toward relationship discussions and how that might affect such potential threads. @maxal and @Kaymyth and others, the point of my original post was not about why the ASK thread was closed, as I have been given the same explanation before. I get that it is done with now and we need to figure out a way to move forward with character based discussion from here. My point is that the general attitude towards relationship discussion has been less than welcoming so those who happily participated in the thread and don’t see the whole thing as “toxic” are feeling even less welcome as a result.

I’m new here and haven’t personally been involved in moderation on either side so there’s not much I can add to the original post and main discussion here but I did want to comment on one point. There’s a misperception I’ve seen perpetuated throughout the forum (as above) that the entirety of a 96 page thread was directly about ships. In reality the conversation evolved again and again to cover a wide range of topics having anything to do with all three characters. I get that this is part of what some are arguing against and there may be a point to that. But the closing of the thread in an atmosphere of dismissiveness around any discussion of relationships leaves many who enjoy character based discussion feeling less welcome. Many seem to feel that problems have been solved by closing a thread. I can see that some have been created (or at least worsened) without being addressed yet.

One point in favor of keeping it in one document (especially for you) is that it would make it easier to search, which may become helpful once it inevitably gets long. But I agree with what others said, if you find it easier another way, no complaints here!

Great start! I like the organization and your discussion definitely brought the chapter back to my mind well. Interesting that so far all of Shallan’s lack of confidence seems to be of the kind that could be directly attributed to her isolated Vorin upbringing. From some of the examples you pointed out: not setting a price with a porter would probably be because she has no idea what is appropriate (or at least in Karbranth), disliking her own looks because they don’t fit the Alethi (dominant Vorin culture) ideal. We know later that she has far more traumatic reasons to have a lack of self confidence but none of that seems apparent yet, indicating that she is already very skilled at burying anything she doesn’t want to think about. The line about her hating to be duplicitous is curious. Nothing else you discussed in the chapter seems to support that statement. By the end of OB this statement does not fit her at all. I wonder if it truly is an accurate statement at this point but changes over time or if even then she in fact loves being duplicitous so much that she doesn’t even realize it.

I’m looking forward to this as well! My feelings on Shallan pretty much echo @GarrethGrey as expressed above. Very interested in your analysis.

After a lot of discussion on this board, I agree, and the WoB does make it clear that Shallan still has a long way to go which makes me feel better. Her step in the right direction just seemed so small to me, and yet I get the impression that Shallan at least thinks she is way better. Just going off my overall impression the first read through, I remember feeling like 1. Hmmm, Shallan’s got some serious issues she is avoiding, 2. Yikes, she is really not okay, 3. Scared that she seems to be getting worse, 4. What?! She is supposed to be better all of a sudden and happily getting married?! So maybe we weren’t meant to see it that way and it makes more sense that Shallan is such an unreliable narrator that we can’t trust her own assessment of herself. But it definitely did color my first impression. Only half way through a reread but I’m thinking my reaction may be a little different this time.

Underwhelming isn’t the word I would use to describe OB because many aspects of it were very affecting to me. But I do sympathize with that point of view because in some ways it wasn’t what I expected and parts of it did fall flat for me. I’m trying to withhold final judgment because I am in the middle of a re-read and I’m afraid I didn’t absorb it all the first go round which leaves me vulnerable to the parts that didn’t work for me having too much of an effect on my overall impression. But I’ll try to sum up some major points for now. This was Dalinar’s book and while his ending was very satisfying I found myself not enjoying almost all of his flashbacks. I was hard to spend so much time seeing him not progress. It was clear from the beginning that we were being shown a different, monstrous Dalinar but it didn’t require all the pages it took to establish that and he didn’t change much until after the flashbacks ended. I found myself only really interested in his visit to the Nightwatcher/Cultivation. His current day thread also was rather slow moving until the end (which did make up for a lot). Shallan was nearly as important in this book as Dalinar and while a lot changed for her it also did largely feel like regression, which made it painful at times to read. Unlike Dalinar, none of that seemed paid off by her ending which if anything made me feel more uneasy because on the surface it seems like we are supposed to believe everything is okay with her. But if so it doesn’t feel justified and if not I guess that means there is even more pain to come. Unfortunately her romantic arc was deeply unsatisfying to me, especially in this context and I fear that did affect my overall impression of the book on first read. Some things I really enjoyed: Elhokar, all interactions between Shallan and Wit and between Kaladin and Syl, seeing a different side of Jasnah although she was overall a more minor player, the Shadesmar sequence, and the payoff with Dalinar ascending. These are the positives that stuck with me after my first read. Bottom line, I think there is a difference between subverting expectations but in a way that feels justified and delivers a meaningful payoff and failing to deliver on expectations in a way that feels rushed or unjustified. My overall impression is that Dalinar’s storyline was more of the first (although it was slow getting there because of Brandon’s commitment to the structure of extended flashbacks for each of the main viewpoint characters). Unfortunately so far for me Shallan’s story was more of the latter, but I’m willing to hope it’s not as it seems and there may be a better payoff in the future.