5 hours ago, stormbourne said:

since investiture cannot created or destroyed it is apparent that odium has insured that the powers cannot merge again so my main question is by doing so has he inadvertently created "lesser shards"

What exactly are you referring to by "creating lesser shards"?  Are you talking about him Splintering Ambition/Honor, him stuffing Dominion/Devotion in the CR, or something else?  

I think he'd get the stored weight back out, not that it'd be turned into stored speed.  I don't think that the stored attribute is going to change when the metal is alloyed.  

He would still not be able to compound though:

1. If it produces weight, he wouldn't be able to store the weight in the steel, because it's the wrong metal.  
2. If it's converted to speed, he wouldn't be able to store the speed, because he's not a Steelrunner.  

To be able to successfully compound, you need to be able to both store and burn using the same metal.  

6 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

He says the pairs are as natural as the metals on Scadrial. But nothing on Scadrial is "natural". Everything is constructed. If Brandon's talking about how there is a decided metal-power combination, well then that entire framework was created by Preservation. It was Leras who decided what metals to use, and what powers they will give.

Another way of interpreting it could be simply to say that the Surge Pairs co-relate to metal-alloy push-pull pairs. But even then, it was Preservation that decided on those things. That constructed structure was sort of the point of the whole system there.

I believe you are overestimating the amount of control that Shards have over their magic systems - it's not absolute.  For example, a Shard can't refuse to power a magic user.  Also, the magic systems "weren't 100% created by the Shards, bu they do also have the Shard's influence on them."  

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I got this idea watching Rshara post for the thirteenth time that Odium is not Passion.  This thread exists so that you can put proof that something people think is true is not and just link them here instead of saying everything every time it comes up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to put your argument/theory in it's own thread, and then link people to that thread?  

Also, I think you are overestimating the number of things that have proof (vice just being theories).  

4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Nalthis ? Why nalthis ??

Because Nalthis is one of the primary Shadesmar destinations.  It's a lot easier and less dangerous to get to than Scadrial, Sel, and Taldain.  They even have customs!  

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the roadway. Let's say you look at frontier era America. How hard was it to get to England? It was really far away, but it was actually relatively safe and common to do this. How difficult was it to get to Boise, Idaho? That's harder, but you know how to do it. How easy was it to get to, let's say, the Hawaiian Islands? You're starting to get into like, the question comes here, certain pathways are more traveled. There are going to be caravans, there are going to be guides. There are going to be safe travels between certain places that are done commonly enough that if you are in the know and are in the right place you can be like "I wanna buy passage here." And you go there, and you can have a reasonable expectation that you're going to make it to where you're going. 

Other places, you say, "I wanna go here", and they're like, "Yeah, I've known someone who tried that and they never came back. I'm not taking you." So, where you're going, where you're trafficking, Khriss gives you some indications of which ones are easy to get to and which ones are commonly visited. I would recommend that if you want to go on vacation in the cosmere, like, "I want to go somewhere different," go to Nalthis. Go to Nalthis. Nalthis is great to go to, right? They even have customs that you can go through. You can like, arrive, and things like this. Don't go to Sel. Sel is not good to go to. Sel is really dangerous to go to. There's a dead Shard--two of them--in the Cognitive Realm that will destroy you. Other places, Scadrial, used to be a lot easier to get to. Roshar, depends on which era you're talking about. Sometimes it's pretty easy to go to. Those nice Horneaters will treat you like a god and feed you food. However, right now, it might not be a good time to try to visit Roshar.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure the Fused got their Surgebinding by Odium copying the Honorblade/Herald/KR system.

Apparently the Surges were used to destroy Ashyn, though that magic system wasn't identical to modern KR-style Surgebinding (derived from the spren copying the Honorblades), and also not identical -- though similar -- to the modern Ashyn disease-based magic.

And there are 9 orders of Fused, not 10, and 9 is supposed to be Braize's number.

So I think the Surges in general might be shared across the whole Greater Roshar system, and the Fused use Odium's/Braize's means of accessing it. The reason the Fused didn't have it originally might have been a result of having to adapt the Braize system to work right for Rosharan-native singers.

Yes, the Surges are a Roshar- or Cosmere-wide phenomena, and are separate from Surgebinding, which is a particular method of accessing the Surges.  Whether or not you lump pre-Cataclysm and post-Cataclysm Ashyn Surge-wielding into "Surgebinding" is largely a matter of semantics.  

What I meant by Odium "copying" the Rosharan version Surgebinding, I mean that the Fused's magic system is extremely similar or identical to the modern Rosharan KR system (obviously one of the Surges is missing), and distinct from the Ashyn versions.  

On 7/24/2019 at 4:29 PM, Karger said:

On 7/24/2019 at 4:01 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Burning Trellium as an Allomantic metal, like Atium or the other base 16 metals.

It will not be possible unless Harmony specifically makes it so.

My interpretation of what Brandon's said on the matter was always that the Shard whose metal it is is the one that has to work to make it Allomantically viable (by e.g. Investing in Scadrial), rather than Preservation/Harmony.  

7 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Mostly. The one thing I don't think has actually been confirmed (though hinted at) is my claim that all of Roshar's natural magic involves gems/gemhearts of some kind. The 2 things I'm uncertain of are skyeels and the Purelake magic fish, which don't really seem to be crustacean-ish like most of the native Rosharan wildlife.

(And maybe the Ryshadium, but I'd guess that their spren bonds are not truly natural evolution but the result of Honor, Ishar, a Bondsmith, or a Stone Shaman with the Bondsmith Honorblade messing around.)

Yeah, it's not confirmed that literally all the native-to-Roshar magic deals with gemhearts (most, but not all).  

As far as the Ryshadium go, I don't think I'd consider them natural magic, as they're not native to Roshar.  In fact Brandon has drawn a parallel between them and the humans, as "non-native species who have started to form spren bonds like native species do."  The WoBs we have on them don't mention any external involvement, they just use phrases like "they evolved symbiotically" and "a symbiotic bond with a spren has started happening."  

7 hours ago, Cremlin said:

I haven’t read mistborn second era yet and I only recognized him when they mentioned him by name in Hero of Ages

Does he appear more than that?

He appears in almost everyone of Brandon's works (every novel, some of the shorter works).  Have you checked out the Coppermind yet?  It's basically the Cosmere Wikipedia.  Hoid's article has a list of all of his appearances: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hoid#History.  

P.s. Double (or quad) posting is against the site rules.  If you need to add something to a previous post, you can use the "edit" button.  Or, if you want to reply to multiple people you can do it all in the same post.  You can quote additional people by using the "plus" sign (multi-quote) or by highlighting the passage you want to quote and hovering over it with the cursor, which will display the "quote this" option.  

5 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

So either the Fused were given Surgebinding after their creation (which I doubt), or Honor copied and built on Odium's framework for the Fused. It makes sense that the Heralds and Fused are both the same kind of cognitive shadow, built on similar mechanics. Except the Heralds have more power because they were created by Honor to fight a enemy superior in number and so were given a distinct edge.

According to the Stormfather, the Fused did not originally have access to the Surges.  

From Oathbringer chapter 38:

Quote

THEY ARE THE SPREN OF PARSHMEN LONG DEAD. THEY ARE THEIR KINGS, THEIR LIGHTEYES, THEIR VALIANT SOLDIERS FROM LONG, LONG AGO. THE PROCESS IS NOT EASY ON THEM. SOME OF THESE SPREN ARE MERE FORCES NOW, ANIMALISTIC, FRAGMENTS OF MINDS GIVEN POWER BY ODIUM. OTHER ARE MORE...AWAKE. EACH REBIRTH FURTHER INJURES THEIR MINDS.

THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM. HUMANS COULD NEVER WIN WHEN THE CREATURES THEY KILLED WERE REBORN EACH TIME THEY WERE SLAIN. AND SO, THE OATHPACT. 

I think you are overestimating the amount of control that the Shards have over their magic systems.  Magic systems have been described as a natural outcome of the interaction between a Shard and a planet.  When Odium copied the Surgebinding that the Honorblades granted, he was probably restricted in what he could do.  Otherwise, why not make all Fused able to use all the Surges?  

1 minute ago, Karger said:

That is not entirely true

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

My interpretation of that WoB is not that each of the three magic systems are a blend of both Shards, but rather that the collective systems stem from the Shards (i.e. Hemalurgy->Ruin, Allomancy->Preservation, Feruchemy->Both).  

There are other (more recent) WoBs that explicitly say that Hemalurgy is "of pure Ruin."

Quote

Questioner

Allomancy is of Preservation, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes...

Questioner

What are Feruchemy and Hemalurgy of?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is definitely of Ruin.

Questioner

Is it of pure Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a very Ruin thing. And Feruchemy is more of a blend. Though… there is more philosophy to that and human construct—like the Allomantic table—than I think I’ve made clear before.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

P.s. It's helpful if you use the "copy" feature from Arcanum, because it includes a link to the WoB as well as the date (which can be relevent).  Or at least put a link to it.  

FWIW, I wouldn't really consider this to be a game as much as a physics simulator.  

Anyway, here's what Brandon's website says is his policy on fan-made media:

Quote

Can I Make A Non-Profit Fan Movie / Short / Trailer?

Normally, I’d love to do this sort of thing. The problem is, I just don’t have the right to say ‘yes’ any longer. Intellectual property rights can be notoriously tricky to deal with. Now, I personally have no problem with fan-films, games, creative works, etc. but I can’t give you approval. If you went forward with this, and a rights owner told you to stop, then you’d have to do so.

I’m afraid this puts you in a tough spot. If you wanted to do it, and hope that you weren’t told to stop, you could. Lucas lets people do fan films of all types. However, you risk having the whole thing yanked out from underneath you. You could approach the rights owner and ask what they think, but chances are that they’d just say no.

I am flattered you want to do this, and wish I could be more optimistic.

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

No.  Ruin's magic system is hemalurgy but he did not control every aspect of it.  It was created via interference between the two shards.  Sort of.  Brandon has not explained it well.

Feruchemy, not Hemalurgy, is from the combination of the two Shards.  Hemalurgy is Ruin's magic system.  

13 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Trellium Allomancy

You've used this term a bunch - what does it mean?

52 minutes ago, brasidas said:

So if you could bond a Cognitive shadow...

Does this mean you could technically (with hacking) make a Nahel-ish bond with Kelsier in those years before he got spiked back into the physical realm?

 

Yes.  

Quote

Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

9 hours ago, Cremlin said:

How the heck did anyone know/guess who they actually are and is their identity confirmed by Brandon Sanderson?

Don't worry about it - some people are just better at spotting those kinds of things.  I missed almost every single appearance of Hoid.  

I had read through all of Mistborn + WoK/WoR before finding out that the two series were connected...

On 7/22/2019 at 8:27 PM, ElendVenture said:

Will there be an era four, First Witness?

Yes - see the series' Coppermind page: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Mistborn_(series).  We don't know a ton about it except that it'll be a Sci-Fi series and is the finale of the Cosmere saga.  

The Era 4 WoBs: https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?tags=mistborn+era+4

For future reference, the Coppermind article on Hoid has a listing of all of his appearances: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Hoid#History.  

9 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

      3. Again, I agree. In fact, even my original posts agree on this count - Knights Radiant were Surgebinders with a formal moral code and organisational structure.

I see that now.  I was referring to your post from Friday when you said that one thing that struck you about Nohadon's vision was "how that entity was referred to as a Surgebinder and not a Radiant."

9 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

4. On this, I don't know. It makes sense to me both ways - thinking Odium directly recruited dying Singers that had already joined his cause works, it also works if some of the Fused were parts of cult-like ritual sacrifice in Odium's name (although probably no). On the otherhand, Odium didn't design all his spren now, some had to have been existing prior to the creation of the Oathpact, some potentially before the Fused. In this case, what I say is the first ideal for a Fused might be - in line with the theme of being symmetric with Honor's system - be the last ideal for a Regal, where the Spren and they fully merge on death to become a Fused. In this case, the beginning of the Knights Radiant progression was designed to be purposefully symmetric with the end of Odium's surgebinding progression used by the Fused/Regals? The Eila Stele could have not mentioned it if it was written before the Singers switched to Odium. Similarly, the Stormfather mentions his memory isn't trustworthy, and it seems to be atleast partly discovery based. He also conveniently doesn't mention things he feels are not important. So, his recounting is unreliable in it's completeness, even if it is reliable in it's truthfulness.

For the inverted First Ideal to be how the Fused gain power, that would mean that it came before the Knights Radiant First Ideal (as the Fused predated the KR by a lot).  That would mean that the Fused version was the original and the KR version was the inverted one, which just doesn't feel right.  

@Eran of Arcadia Have you checked out the Coppermind yet?  It's the Cosmere version of Wikipedia.  

The article on the Oathpact has a great synopsis:

Quote

During the Desolations, Odium had given his soldiers powers, allowing them to remain past their deaths as Cognitive Shadows. After being killed, these singers, known as the Fused, were able to take over the bodies of other singers and manipulate the Surges with Voidlight. Everytime a Fused was killed, its soul it would simply be born again into a new host. This formed an impossible challenge for the humans as their strongest enemies could never be permanently killed, and so came the solution: the Oathpact.

Five men and five women gave themselves up voluntarily to this pact. With Honor's blessing, they traveled to Braize and sealed the spren of the enemy there. It prevented the Fused from returning, and so ended the war. Or so Honor thought. While gods and spren cannot break oaths, men can and will. The Fused captured the Heralds and tortured them. Eventually, one of the Heralds would break, starting a new Desolation. At the beginning, the Heralds were strong and hundreds of years passed between Desolations, but near the end, their souls wore thin. There were only 2 years between the last two Desolations. After Aharietiam, the Heralds realized that after all that time, there was one Herald that had never broken the oath and started a Desolation. Talenelat, the Bearer of Agonies. The other Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, leaving only Talenelat to uphold it by himself. For over four and a half millennia, Talenelat withstood the torture of the enemy, but he finally broke, joining the other nine who still live. This caused the True Desolation, currently occurring on Roshar.^{[citation needed]}

After the Last Desolation, nine of the Heralds thought they abandoned the Oathpact, leaving only Talenel'Elin to uphold it.^[1] However, despite what they believe, all the Heralds are still bound to the Oathpact.^[2]

On 7/20/2019 at 0:10 AM, cometaryorbit said:

Honor's Innovation

Forms of Power

I think everything in the first two sections has been confirmed already.  

On 7/22/2019 at 0:34 AM, TheFoxQR said:

We know Odium likes to be 9-centric, and Honor likes to be 10-centric.

All evidence points to the "magic numbers" being tied to the planets, not the Shards themselves.  

On 7/20/2019 at 5:06 AM, TheFoxQR said:

IBrandon's reaction to the second question is telling us something, though I don't know what that something is.

Brandon RAFOing a question doesn't tell us anything.  It's the Brandon equivalent of "no comment."  

On 7/20/2019 at 1:41 AM, CosmicSieve said:

I wondered if Kaladin meant the one who had killed Tien. Wasn't that the same Highprince's army as four years ago? I don't have my book handy to double check. 

That was my assumption too.  

On 7/20/2019 at 1:05 AM, Dunadan Windrunner said:

I don’t think Trell and Odium are the same. Trellium, as has been stated is silvery with a reddish cast to it and red spots like rust. However if we take Vyre’s knife, SPOILER FOR OB. (The knife used by Moash to kill Jezrien for good) as being Raysium, it was described as being a light golden white colour. 

That leads me to believe, despite red eyes, that they are completely different shards. 

Red in the Cosmere frequently symbolized corruption (i.e. corrupted Investiture).  

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

But interacting with too much of any investiture alters your perceptions.

So you think that Hoid's overall goal in the story is to rid himself of the effects of various magics?  That doesn't seem nearly grand enough for Hoid.  

16 hours ago, King of Herdaz said:

Allomantic metals are just "keys" to the investiture which is being drawn from Preservation's "body" in the spiritual realm and not actually the source of the power. So I had a thought. Being that metal is the solid form of investiture in the cosmere, wouldn't it make more sense for the power to be coming from the metal being burned since it itself is made up of pure investiture?

As others have pointed out, solid Investiture (i.e. god metals) takes the form of metal, but not all metal is Investiture.  Most metal is just plain old matter.  

That's just how the Cosmere works.  You can think it would make more sense for the power to be coming directly from the metal, but that's not how Brandon designed it.