Diomedes

So what prevented the Radiants from sticking around was their inability to make really "messy" choices? Like, killing other Radiants? They did enslave the entire Listener race. But maybe that was the trigger that threw them off. I get, what you are saying. It is the oaths in themselves that proclaim an untenable ideal in a world of humans with different passions and perceptions. The Post-Nahel Radiants would still have that moral conflict. I just think they somehow knew they were slowly coming around to the way of Odium, not just walking away from the way of Honor. They knew, where this game was heading in the long run, so they decided not to play anymore. And I guess, I will hold on to that persuasion until a new book disproves or approves of my theory. One additional thing: There would be a neat thematic parallel to christian doctrine. -Men being sinners/ enclined to the way of Odium; -Them being saved by the torturous sacrifice of one divine individual (Jesus/Taln) -Humans as a whole being bad people, but some individuals are awesome (saints/ Radiants; disciples/ Heralds) -But even the best human beings betray the one individual (Heralds abandoning Taln/ Judas betraying J., Peter disavowing J., the other d. falling asleep)

@The One Who Connects I like your theory a lot. I think that is how the corruption of the orders was going to happen. They began aligning themselves with their respective homelands and infighting between KR was inevitable. Yeah, but the order of the Skybreakers is older than even 4000 years. In all that time they, or any other order, did not destroy Roshar. Maybe it is infighting between different groups of Surgebinders that causes cosmic destruction? That happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar without a common enemy. Skybreakers have no infighting because they are bound to the law and Nale is running a tight ship. He does not need to be involved in these events, but he easily could have. My theory does not rest on Odium`s influence. It would be just as powerful, if we got option 1). Humans are drawn by their passionate (infighting) nature into the arms of their metaphorical Father Odium. That is why he is so fond of Humans: They behave in an odious/ passionate way. Your theory does not adress point A); Why couldn`t the orders be continued without Nahel-bonds? They would have a monopoly on Shards. I think the only possible explanation is that they saw themselves becoming Odium`s tool in the long run. As is the Vorin church , the Shin elders, the Azish elite, etc. That is why their order had to be disbanded.

ah, ok but this is not really an integral part of my theory. I just assumed it would make the most sense. Odium still has a special bond to Humans. That`s exactly what the Stormfather says though, I mean literally: Then he gives actually more evidence for my theory: He blames them for being humans, being passionate people, that will, neccesarily, create a corrupt organization in the long term. I am totally on board with your theory that the spren are in on it. This is quite compatible with my theory. Edit: I have read through the thread of your theory. There seemed to be quite a lot of people, who still thought the Recreance was a massive plothole. Maybe my additional explanation could answer some of their concerns?

In OB we learn the apparent reason for the Recreance: Humans had been the original Voidbringers and would eventually destroy Roshar by using surges, as we hear from the Stormfather himself: The thing is, it does not make a lot of sense. A: They could have chosen a way less dramatic exit. They could have broken their bonds and still retain the Shardplates and Blades. This way their order would have remained as a powerful political institution to prepare humankind for the next desolation. Or in general to keep order in Roshar. B: There has been one Knight Radiant order around for 4000 years, they did not destroy Roshar and possibly never will. Therefore, behold my grand theory! The Radiants abandoned their oaths because they realized, humans are Odium`s children. This needs a bit of explanation. So let`s back off a bit shall we? Rosharan came from Ashyn/ the Tranquiline Halls, which they destroyed by using Surges. They had access to these Surges but they were likewise under Odium`s influence. I think it is likely Odium created Rosharan humans on Ashyn Edit: This is definitly not true as seen by WoB below quoted by RShara. Anyways, it is apparent Odium has a deep bond to Rosharan humans as he speaks to Dalinar and Taravangian: It is made clear in Dalinar`s passage explicitly and in T.`s implicitly that old Rayse regards Rosharan humans as his children. Maybe this is a special trait he brings to the power of Odium. He does not want to destroy them, he wants to corrupt Honors influence and ethics and bring them to his side. We know for some time that the question of whether you are on Honors or Odium`s side is not as much about your ends, but about what means you are willing to employ to get there. Journey before destination is Honor`s path. Passion before anything else Odium`s. Now, if we look around Roshar at the beginning of SA, we see Odium`s influence everywhere, Honor`s almost nowhere. Alethi culture is all about game, the thrill, the glory, the victory. The codes of Honor are followed by exactly no one except House Kholin. The Way of Kings used to be a handbook for any ruler, almost nobody is reading it in our time. The Vorin church reveres the Almighty, but does not put ethical, “honorable” restraints on anyone. In fact in Kholinar we see that one Ardent paving the way for the arrival of the Unmade. The Shin follow the code of their tradition too much. So much so they miss the time, for which they were created in the first place. They make Szeth Truthless for this. In Azir it is almost the same. The protocol has become so elaborate, it makes responding to challenges almost impossible. Powerful groups in both countries only care about staying in power, not about how this power is exercised. And then there is the enslavement of an entire race, about which nobody cares about…. I can think of two explanations for this horrible state of affairs. 1) Humans on Roshar as Odium`s children are more drawn to Odium than they are to Honor. 2) It was Odium`s subtle influence on his children over 4000 years that created this; Or a combination of the two. This is the explanation for point A). If the Radiants had stayed as a powerful force on Roshar, their Order would have been corrupted by the shortcomings of human nature or Odium`s influence. They would have become like the Skybreakers or the Vorin church: Organizations corrupted beyond recognition. Odium would only need to ask the Bondsmiths to release him end they would have freed him. By terminating the Order they gave future Radiants the chance to stand up to Odium. It is likely that the enslavement of the Listeners gave the deciding impulse to make them realize they were becoming a tool of Odium. Regarding point B), I propose it is not exactly Surgebinders onto themselves that are destroying worlds. It is Surgbinders under Odiums influence doing it, as it happened on Ashyn and was going to happen on Roshar with corrupted KR orders. The Knights realized that they were the children of Odium/ Voidbringers. Therefore they had to accept that their order would be corrupted, even if they had just abandoned the spren and carried on without them. The Skybreakers realized they would be immune to Odium`s influence, if they`d be completely emotionless. This in turn perverted the intent of their order.

Remember: Sequels always have to be bigger, as some Ardent said.

@teknopathetic I don`t know about your Nalthis theory. The evidence is a bit to thin. Shouldn`t a massive plotpoint like this be set up more carefully, you know, since WoK? "We know"? Do you have an WoB for this? The Iri thing alone is a bit thin, to say that "We know". I agree though that certain sentient races will leave Roshar by the end of book 5. I believe that a lot of humans will stay on Roshar, now beeing Odiums people. A probable candidate may be Braize but Nalthis, as you suggested, is likewise possible. I have a theory written up here, that it is indeed Odiums "endgame" for Roshar to bring humans, his original people, back to his cause. The Listeners are just pawns he sacrifices in that game.

There is some evidence that team Honour will lose the battle for Roshar. Consider the story Hoid told Kaladin in th prison in WoR. The runner ran well but ultimatly could not outrun the storm and died. But it did not matter he died because he ran well. I think the end of the series will be similar. Odium will win but his victory will be meaningless.

@FuzzyWordsmith Well, one of the main arguments in the Thread that Shall not be Named was that Brandon is misleading the audience by implying Shallan would be on recovery; While in fact the relationship to a certain character is actually hindering the chances for recovery. BTW that thread offered waaay more good arguments than people give it credit for. But yes, I agree with you. It is kind of problematic to end the narrative for a few years on that note.

If you read the Shallan sequence closely, it is made clear that she is indeed combining and "resonating" transformation and lightweaving. She is using parts of her own mind and soul to transform her lightweaved illusions into real entities. They are complete entities of body, mind and soul, literal parts of her, who die in the thousands. Since they have a mind and soul, it is pretty likely that the bodies are not just made of stormlight, but real physical soulcast bodies. Anyways, even if these bodies are made of stormlight, she is still combining her two surges by putting her own mind and soul into the illusions. Whilst they are dying she can still resurrect them using stormlight before they have fully transitioned into the beyond. Kind of like Szeth was resurrected by Naln at the end of WoR. This means, when she ran out of stormlight, a certain percentage of her mind and soul was dead, before Jasnah gave her new stormlight reseveres to resurrect these parts of her again. And yes I think this is deeply, deeply worrying.

Good point! I largely agree with you here. In WoR she still seems to realize that Veil and "Shallan" are lies. In OB she forgets more and more that "Shallan" is a lie and so does the reader. This is exactly what Tyn had warned her about. Names are important in this matter. She does not give "Shallan" a specific name. This way she can pretend that "Shallan" is her "main" identity, while the others are just deviations. At times during OB she manages to control her lies and see them for what they are: This is the point I originally wanted to make: "Shallan" is not the main identity but a persona just like Veil and Radiant. I also don`t think that her personas will ever outlive their usefulness, she will always keep them. She just needs to realize that her lies are lies.

People always forget that "Shallan" the persona, is also a lie. She created her before she went to the Shattered Plains, she is not "real" Shallan: Now, she does not completly morph into this new persona. While being at court for the first time she states: The "today" signifies clearly that on other days she is not that person. I called this persona somewhere else "Princess Shallan", but the courtwoman might actually be a more accurate description. The courtwoman is also quite snobbish, is infatuated by superficial beauty and can`t stand to see blood. No wonder Kaladin really hates her in WoR displaying this persona. The courtwoman is as much not integrated Shallan, as is Veil or Radiant. They are all (true) lies. Integrated, "real" Shallan, is all three personas together and more. This base identity is the cloth from which she can create new personas. Theoretically she could create more than those three, and at some times during OB she almost does. This discription fits the integrated actual Shallan, not the courtwoman. Her main characteristic is that she hates herself for seemingly bringing destruction to everyone she is close to. This is why she almost has a mental breakdown in Kholinar. Her selfhatred is the reason she flees from herself into these personas. I really wish she learns to accept herself in the next book.

The big "problem" I have with OB that no grand expectation is set or promise made for the last few hundred pages or so. In WoK we had Dalinar vs Sadeas and the situation of Bridge Four and indeed these issues were met by the end of WoK. In WoR the even greater expectation was resolved that the war against the Parshendi would end which we had expected since the beginning of WoK. OB is different. The big villain is Odium but we also know that he is not going to be defeated in this book. There is no plan how to challange him, no ring to throw into Mt. Doom, no Death Star to destroy, no Horcruxes to kill, you get the point. All plotlines hang in a void without some big expectation to tie them all together. Instead the characters stumble along for the last act to arrive. I mean they literally stumble through the Perpendicularity into Thaylen! We could not have expected the books resolution there with the minor villain Amaram, which we have barely seen in the book. This lack of a bigger expectation makes for a somewhat confusing read. This does not make OB a bad book, just an unusual one. I did not like it as much as WoR but it is still damnation good.

yes! that would fit perfectly. that is also possible. I cause to appear, bring to light; I show, uncover, reveal; I shine, give light. those are all valid translations to the corresponding verb. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/φαίνω#Ancient_Greek So this is a coincidence. Concerning Kaladin, I think his name might be foreshadowing that he will have a very long life. The fact that all the Honorspren have these latin/greek names instead of normal understandable ones like all other spren (Ivory, Pattern..) could speak to their snobbish attitude.

Here is a short list on the significance of names in SA: Renar-in Like one who was born unto himself; (OB p. 515) Kalad-in He who was born unto eternity; Kalad: eternity (OB, p.519) , in: to be born unto (OB p.515) Shallan likely a play on the name of the herald Shalash, patron of the Lightweavers, known for creativity (!) and honesty (?) https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shalash Sylphrena phren means "mind" in ancient greek ("phrenology"), that would fit since Syl is a creature of the cognitive realm, Syl does not have a meaning in greek though. Phendorana (Tefts spren), she who gives the shine/ the shinegiving one; phen greek for shine ("phantom"), doron greek for gift/present ("Dorothee": the gift of god) Notum spren on the ship in Shadesmar in OB, the famous one, the gender is neuter for this spren (!) http://latindictionary.wikidot.com/adjective:notus Rua (Lopens spren) probably from ruga latin for street (rue street in french), he likes to make rude gestures and all the other Honorsprens names are also greek/latin Jasnah jasna means bright/plain/straightforward in polish and many slavic languages, could be just a coincidence. However, it would fit just too well. These are the ones I came up with.

Alethkar is already taken by Team Odium, it is most definitely in rumbles. The Vorin church will also certainly make trouble. Jasnah though, she will not be forced to abdicate, nobody forces Jasnah Kholin to do anything. Exactly what I am thinking, but the minor western kingdoms will fall to the alliance, since they are without support of Odiums main forces in Alethkar. Odium is probably setting some kind of trap for the Alethi to walk into. I imagine this will be the betrayal of King T and his Veden armies. I see the next book featuring a gigantic battle in Jah Keved, where King T switches sides and thus Dalinar is handed a devastating defeat. oh noooo, some major stuff happening would be awful.

For those who did not know: there is going to be a timeskip after OB and the next book lasting roughly one year. We know from one of the last few chapters that the general Alethi plan for the next few months is to take Tu Bayla, a minor kingdom between Azir and Jah Keved. I think the timeskip is due to that part not being that interesting to witness. I somehow cannot imagine some major battle or an attempt of assassination etc. happening off-screen. The next book will rather set in when the next significant phase of the conflict begins, possibly the defence of Jah Keved or the attempted recapture of Alethkar. And, as we all know, personal conflict thrives when people are in challenging circumstances. The timeline also fits into this rather nicely. The armies cannot take an Oathgate between Urithiru, Tu Bayla and the border to Alethkar. They would have to walk the way, which combined with preparations and the actual fighting in that kingdom would take the better part of a year. As for the development of the characters… I would really like to see the interaction between Shallan and her family in the months after the wedding. This would be crucial to her development since she would need to face her past represented by her family. But maybe she finds a way to send them away? Likewise, how is the Kholin family going to spin the murder of Sadeas? I presume that Dalinar will not make this public despite his strict adherence to the codes. Maybe in a years’ time rumors concerning the murder will be spreading around and we will witness everyone facing the consequences then? So what are your thoughts? How could this all work out? I personally do not understand any need for a timeskip in terms of character development. Only considering the strategical circumstances would it make sense to introduce the skip. That way we do not see one year of skirmishes and the army marching from A to B.

OB was all about defying truth (see the Ketek of Oathbringer). The next installment will feature this truth coming back with a vengeance. Sadeas murder will come back to haunt everyone. I predict Adolin going down a dark path for having enjoyed the murder and this satisfaction being the main motivation for it. Maybe when he sees how his home has been traeted this will cause hatred for the parshmen in him. He will want to have his revenge. And this is going to be the start of a long and twisted road. Dalinar will not be pleased. The Ghostbloods will play a more open role. They will cause tension between Shallan and Jasnah. (You did whaaat? Seriously Shallan, right after my supposed death you allied yourself with my murderers? Didn`t you promise never to lie to me again?) So the newly wed couple will be oucasts from Alethi society since Jasnah is Queen of Alethkhar and Dalinar leads the Radiants. Szeth will have to wrestle with everyone hating on him for being the assassin in white. Even our PoV`s will feel ambivalent about him. He will also have to deal with his inner demons telling him how he caused the death of hundred of thousends of people by killing kings and leaders. He will have to step up and take responsibility like Dalinar did. Or he doesn´t. Behold my grand tinfoil-hat conspiracy. Shallan and Adolin will retreat to Aimia to not be judged anymore by anyone. This sure will solve all problems. Adolin will duell each and every day. Shallan will keep pretending this is allright and ok. This is just an extended honeymoon, right? right? ....Because when you are going to be outcasts, why not enjoy it? Besides there is so much to study here, those Aimians and those creatures.... Szeth will be charged to retrieve them, but he will likewise join team outcast, because he is tired of everyone telling him he is evil. Nightblood gets confused by that talk. He just wants to sip his purple-wine at the beach of Aimia and relax for once.

I think this is a fundamental trait of true Shallan. In the beginning of WoR before she had created any of these personas (Princess Shallan/Veil/Radiant) we see her diving into the ocean just to study the Santhid. Though this part of her has leapt into Princess Shallan. She went together with Adolin to study the whitespine in the zoo as Princess Shallan in WoR. Veil or Radiant don`t seem to have any artistic talent as shown by the mixed sketchbook. All these talents have gone to Princess Shallan. Oh and according to this assessment all good sketches of Kaladin have been made by Princess Shallan or true Shallan....... What did Kaladin and Shallan talk about on the ship in Shadesmar? They were mostly nerding out about stuff, great spren and the like. Her passion in this regard is a fundamental trait of true Shallan which she cannot share with Adolin. In some ways this is the key to her true identity. Choosing between scholarly life and keeping on lying to Jasnah was her entire arc in WoK. Kaladin totally "gets" it and Adolin does not. Shallan is also quite amiable towards Kaladin in this scene, which means we are talking about real Shallan here. It cannot be Veil, because she is not interested in scholarship. If Veil would be, she would have spotted the fishy stuff going on with the children in Kholinar, but she did not. Her recognition of killing her father in this scene ("I remember", p. 933.) confirms that this is real Shallan. As is stands now all Shallan personas have feelings for Kaladin. Princess Shallan does not want to admit it and blames this on Veil, but her stares reveal her ambigious feelings. Veil is completly on team Shalladin. Radiant is pretty emotionless, but she also favors Kaladin. True Shallan... well she certainly has feelings for Adolin and Kaladin. Only two Shallan personas have developed feelings for Adolin. Princess Shallan is infatuated with him and true Shallan, well I do not know actually how far true Shallan`s love for him goes. Did she ever confess to Adolin that she killed her father? As long as she does not do that we will never know if true Shallan has had any contact with Adolin.

Hmmm. The Fused need the sacrifice of a host-soul and mind though to keep on living. I guess the passage can be interpreted both in my way and yours. It would just make so much sense, if Shallan had to sacrifice a tiny part of her soul, if she wants to do this. I mean think about the strategical advantage of ten lightweavers well supplied with stormlight, they could raise 10 armies almost indefintly. The enemy would never know, where the real soildiers are. And yes I know Amarams soildiers were blinded by the thrill. Thats why they couldn`t make out the illusions. But still.

but she is not simply lightwaving. She is combining lightweaving with soulcasting. Those are not simply illusions. It is explicitly stated, that a part of her is dying. Which means a part of her goes to the spiritual realm. She cannot just resurrect them. Instead they are "reborn and she sends them out again", which means she uses a new part of her soul to animate the living illusions. If she could recreate the souls, why is she speaking of them dying, not just vanishing and returning to her? Dying implies going away forever, leaving the physical and cognitive realm.

The "illusions" are made up of Shallans soul and are dying by the thousands. Thus always a little part of her sould dies. Edit: it is even clearer here

One quick question, has anyone talked about Shallan losing a decent portion of her soul in the battle in the end? How much of her soul did she loose? a quarter, a third, even half? The thing is her behaviour in the end does not make sense from the perspective of her arc. Her feelings both for Kaladin and Adolin intesify on the ship to Thaylen. The hints on both side get bigger (leering onto Kaladin and more, the dialogue with Adolin). No developement rejecting Kaladin takes place. I think this can be fixed. Dalinar also healed the wounds in his soul by being exposed to the Honorblade. But I think it will take Shallan some time to do that.

To you and to those who think like you, you are in good company, go ahead and read the Wit/ Shallan chapter again. (p.787.) Shallan is actually one of you. But she probably hates herself waaaay more than you ever could. That being said, it is important to note that she is at a pretty dark place right now, like Kaladin just before he fell into the chasms in WoR. Imagine how you would feel about Kaladin, if the book had cut off just then and there. My guess is you wouldn`t really like him. So please withhold your final judgement on Shallan for one or two books until she has pulled herself back together.

I wanted to throw in this little passage after the meeting between Wit and Shallan: Then he rambles a bit about Shallan`s outfit, and Shallan thinks: "Oh, Adolin" .After that Kaladin comes along and we se Shallan only having eyes for him. I think this is significant because in this passage after the meeting with Wit Shallan is arguably the "realest" in all of OB. She is clinging onto Adolin in this chapter physically "relaxing" into him. But Adolin completly misses the emotional state in which Shallan, the real one, is right now. By which I mean she is pretty devasted. Instead he just thinks she`s fine. Worse he thinks she`s basically fine all the time. ("of course"). Still this is not really a decisive pro Shalladin passage. I think Brandon wants to leave real Shallan`s feelings unclear. Instead he leaves us likewise with some pro Shadolin bits. She relaxes into him. This could be read as her finding comfort in the presence of Adolin. Later she thinks to herself "Should I explain?" This refers to her outfit but also could be interpreted as Shallan explaining her emotional state to Adolin. Her just staring at Kaladin is also not a truly decisive argument that she is closer to Kaladin than to Adolin, who is literally holding her right now. So I think, Brandon goes to great length to upholding the ambiguity he has set up in OB regarding Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin. He is not going to destroy that ambiguity by some WoB. Nothing has been decided yet. You nailed it, basically. Though me being a Shalladin shipper think that real Shallan is way closer to Kaladin emotionally than to Adolin.

One big thing to remember is that all of these personas were created to make up for the deficiencies of integrated ("real") Shallan. "Shallan" (I will just call her Princess Shallan) was created because integrated Shallan felt like she could not cope with the needs of Alethi lighteye society. Princess Shallan is a persona perfectly suited for this environment. She exemplifies the social norms pressed on a highborn Alethi woman. This lighteye society does not really value compassion in their women (think about Evi, who is the most compassionate person ever, and how she is treated). So Princess Shallan is not really compassionate. She does not really care about her marriage with Adolin and the bond between them for its own sake. Instead it`s a "celebration of herself". At least the relationship with Adolin is not front and center, where it should be! We also do not see the oaths of the marriage being spoken, which is really odd. Consider also how she treated Bridge Four in WoR, that was pretty snobbish. Now that I think about it, the altruistic drive Veil gets in Kholinar probably stems from her guilty conscience of being self absorbed Princess Shallan. Veil is compensating for this lack of compassion on the side of Princess Shallan. Pattern immediately gets this and calls her out for not genuinly wanting to help people.