Rainier

I am not calling Stormlight message fiction. It's Epic Fantasy, and I'd like it to stay that way. I'm afraid of it becoming message fiction, and I disapprove of what I see as hopes that it becomes message fiction. Yes, a good story succeeds or fails on its characters. What's the point? Yes. If this is it, I'll be disappointed. I want a gnarl, something that makes it distinct from Captain Planet or a Very Special Episode in the Cosmere. Someone switching sides and betraying their former ally for a better deal is a tale as told as time. Everyone deciding that they're not so different and that diversity is their real strength is 2020 message fiction. I have no problem with Vercingetorix saying Death or Free Gaul, what I have a problem with is the Romans saying, OK no problem we're all cool now. No! They're sworn enemies, and Vercingetorix spent the last six years of his life imprisoned just so he could be paraded through Rome at Caesar's Triumph, after which he was unceremoniously strangled to death. That's the kind of ruthlessness I expect to see between these people, because that's the kind of world they live in, and just as it would be a betrayal to show Kaladin unaffected by the trauma he's suffered, it would be a betrayal to show Roshar as a happy multicultural multiracial one-world nation given its history. I'm not interested in seeing Rlain get an Honorspren because that's Equality. If that's the story we get, blech, no thanks. What I'm interested in is revealing the reason for the split between the Singers and Honor. I'm interested in Humans and Singers switching gods, and the reasons why that happened. Good reasons, one would hope.

Yes, exactly, which is another reason why I don't expect him to become a Radiant. It would take too much time and attention away from our main characters. I think his journey with Maya is not for his own benefit, but to foreshadow what will need to be done with the Sibling, but I'm expecting him to die, since he's a character we're emotionally Invested in whose death wouldn't derail the story being told. I think back to their journey through Shadesmar. Kaladin, having failed Elhokar, failed Kholinar, and failed to protect anything he tried to, desperately strives to protect Dalinar, and at the moment of should be triumph, cannot speak his next oath. Shallan, losing herself in other personalities and barely holding herself together, with help from Hoid, navigates them through Shadesmar but fails to take them through the Oathgate, stranding them in Shadesmar. Adolin, deprived of his wardrobe, is forced into tailoring his own clothes from scraps he could procure from the spren. One of these things is not like the other.

There's that Whig History again. I disagree, I think this is a story about superheroes who have to overcome personal flaws in order to unlock their superpowers, in order to stave off the apocalypse and defeat the evil god behind it. Again, why is it important? Who is it important to? Is it important to you? To Tor? To Brandon? It's certainly not important to the characters themselves, since the thing that's actually important is, once again, surviving the apocalypse and defeating the evil god behind it. Kaladin seems to want reconciliation, but Jasnah is fine with genocide, and Venli wants independence, not a war and certainly not allies in a war. The spren themselves are divided, with some bonding humans, others refusing, and still others actively planning revenge. There's no reason why this should end in racial equality any more than it should end in one side winning or both sides being destroyed. Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. There might be compelling reasons for everyone to work together, but there are even more compelling reasons why they're at each others' throats in the first place. There have been four thousand years since Antietam Aharietiam. We've had nominal equality between races for what, three hundred years, tops? And that we is only Western Europe and the US. Don't ask the Chinese Communist Party to tolerate ethnic diversity, because they're not interested. I'm not against racial equality, I'm against poorly disguised message fiction. I hope Brandon isn't writing that story, but it amazes me how strong the desire is for such content. Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen). He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly.

My thoughts on Vasher's Intent comment are that he is elucidating a truism of the Cosmere that power has a mind of its own. The Heralds have an Intent, the Shards have their intent, the spren and the shardblades and the Seons and whatever-the-hell-is-happening on Threnody all have Intents. Each piece of power has its own Intent that it tries to live out, and somehow has an Intent that, like a misaligned wheel, will draw the wielder of that power off target in the same direction. Of all the Shardworlds, Nalthis is the one with the best knowledge of Intent, as that's crucial to Awakening in the first place. I wonder if he knows how close he is to describing the Shattering, and the conflicts that have been going on since then. He knows Endowment, he knows Cultivation, he has to know Honor and Odium, right? And once he knows all of them, by name, he can't help but draw the Connection (heh) between what happens to a piece of cloth that gets invested and what happens to a person that gets invested. Dominated by the Intent of the power. The replica of an impression, made of power.

I'm curious why you think the idea of inclusion and racial equality would be present in a mostly-genocidal multi-millennia long recurring conflict. The spren themselves are the ones picking sides, after all, and why should they care one whit Imperative to what, exactly? I'm mostly in agreement with this idea, but not through some kind of Whig history where everyone only ever gets better and progress is never undone. That's the vibe I'm getting from your post, that somehow everything must get better and it must get better in these specific ways that mirror reality. There are many moments like this, and it's usually when Brandon strays away from fancy magic systems and tries to represent....anything else.

This chapter just makes me sad we won't get to see Nightblood (sequel to Warbreaker) until after book 5. I would also accept an appearance from Yesteel (Ghostbloods, maybe?). I think that's exactly what he's saying, and also that Roshar is not the same as the other two, it is somehow older. This tracks somewhat with the comments we've got from Brandon that indicate that Roshar existed pre-Shattering. Maybe I need to re-read Oathbringer, but I thought Vivenna was hunting a fugitive, and I thought that fugitive was Nightblood itself, not Vasher. Maybe I'm mistaken, or maybe it could go either way. For the Awakening, I'm not sure why Vasher couldn't just be muttering under his Breaths (heh). I think Azure fought without screaming commands at her clothing, so the volume doesn't need to be very loud. Intent, after all, is what is most important.

This is one of those tautologies that's meaningless. Of course it's part of his personality. Kaladin suffers from depression, and he also suffers from PTSD, and he also suffers from a savior complex. These are aspects of his character, and necessarily part of his personality. That's what personality is in the first place: an aggregation of characteristics and traits. What Brandon was saying in that quote is simply that Stormlight isn't going to cure PTSD, because one of the things Brandon is trying to do, with Kaladin and Shallan specifically, is to deal with the consequences of the trauma realistically. To have no flaws, or flaws healed by Stormlight, is cheap and unsatisfying. So Kaladin suffers as you or I would suffer had we charged the Parshendi lines too many times to count, and dragged some people through it but lose others. So Shallan suffers as you or I might suffer had we been abused so terribly as a child, and killed both our parents in different circumstances. Stormlight isn't going to just heal that away like it would a flesh wound. But if you think Kaladin's depression is anything other than a weakness, like the kind from the first Oath, then I'd like to hear why. For me, watching Kaladin succumb to PTSD is realistic, but it's also contradictory to the first oath: it's weakness before strength. I believe the same can be said for Shallan indulging her multiple personalities and refusing to acknowledge her past or recall the memories she's willfully and constantly suppressed. These are the weaknesses that our characters cannot let come before their strengths, and while the story demands our characters have these weaknesses, we should not root for our characters to succumb to them. Kaladin could break his oath with Syl by languishing in his own mind as easily as he did by making contradictory commitments, and Shallan is trying her damnedest to kill Pattern by refusing all opportunities to gain self-awareness. Look at one other Radiants with this in mind and you can see the shapes their arcs will take. Szeth's weakness has been his complete submission of his own conscience, deferring to his customs and/or law. Nale has told us what the Fifth Oath entails: Becoming Justice Personified. Szeth isn't going to get there by doubling down on his weakness. He's not going to reach fifth level by blindly following Dalinar, he has to make those judgements himself, and learn to live with them. Strength. Stormlight isn't going to just banish the voices he hears, he needs to find a way to live on his own, and that will allow him to fulfill the fifth ideal. Lift next. Her weakness is her immaturity and selfishness, which is what originally brought her to Cultivation. "When all else is changing, I want to still be me," she asked, trying to never grow old. Her progression as a character, and as an Edgedancer, has been putting that desire to look out for others. Her selfishness is part of her personality, and isn't just going to be cured by Stormlight. Neither will her stubborn independence, which I expect to see used to get her in trouble when we get more of her later. Rolling back to Adolin, and his potential Radiancy, we come across a problem: he's flawless, and thus has no weakness to overcome. Adolin suffers from a lack of weaknesses for his strengths to be put before.

I agree with this, but Navani isn't going to be one of those ten, regardless of if she's a Bonsmith, a Truthwatcher, or she never gets a spren at all. She's simply not one of those ten. The front five are, in order: Kaladin (Windrunner), Shallan (Lightweaver), Dalinar (Bondsmith), Venli (Willshaper), Szeth (Skybreaker) The back five are: Jasnah (Elsecaller), Renarin (Truthwatcher), Lift (Edgedancer), Taln (Stoneward), Shalash (Dustbringer) There's plenty of speculation on Shalash as Dustbringer, mainly the fact that she goes around destroying all images of herself, but she's confirmed one of the ten, and Dustbringer is the only one without an obvious answer. So no Navani, and regardless of whether she bonds a spren, she's not going to be counting towards the Ten backstory characters. I wouldn't confuse the trauma someone suffers with their personality. Strength before weakness, after all.

I bolded the parts that I thought were particularly applicable to Adolin, and underlined the parts that don't fit that well. Some parts fit quite well, and others not so much. Adolin's ambition of dueling shows a solo streak, not teamwork, but the prowess, athleticism, and competition are right in line. I don't know of him ever taking on tasks, or enormous projects, so that goes against him. We're seeing him as a friend, and that's clearly what you've picked up on. Let's do the same for Edgedancer: There are a few things, but not as much lends itself to Edgedancers, when compared to Stonewards. I had a similar thought about Navani. Everyone seems to think she's going to bond the Sibling, which is a good guess, and there are reasons to think she will. But man, just read the Truthwatcher description and tell me it doesn't describe Navani to a T: I think her examination of fabrials is likely to draw a Truthwatcher spren. I'm with you in one way, at least: I don't think Maya will be willing to bond Adolin, unless it's the only way to revive her in any capacity.

Well, I would actually say everything in the books points to ten oaths, since everything else comes in tens. Ten Heralds, ten Fools, ten Gemstones, ten Essences, ten days in a week, ten months in a year. What else, besides the number of oaths, comes in fives? Why, other than Nale, would we believe it limited to just five, and not ten? Of course, I am inclined to believe Nale, and I don't expect anything after the fifth oath. But from what the book would lead you to believe, I would expect ten oaths, just as ten dominates the rest of Roshar.

Thirty-nine days. I'm going to start scrawling it compulsively onto the walls around me.

I'm very much in favor of the remnant theory. Formless is not complete, it is not the original, it's the scraps of fabric left over when the other garments have been sewn. You could call it the OG fabric, but call it what it is: remnants, scraps, and off-cuts. As for how Shallan/Veil/Radiant can operate without knowing, that's easy. The same way she can operate with all of the giant gaps in her memory, the same way she can operate while denying reality and hiding from her own truths. I don't see any reason why Shallan/Veil/Radiant would necessarily know everything, and in fact the opposite is canon: she continues to operate despite not knowing everything about herself. This is just one more thing she's forgotten, repressed, or otherwise avoided, which is her defining characteristic. Almost as if Formless is the personification of all of Shallan's problems with truth, honesty, and memory...

They're the East India Company, or Standard Oil, since they don't have a royal charter or anything. They're a group trying to create a monopoly on the import and export of energy. I do not think that they are philanthropists, and while they are definitely doing research, I would not consider them researchers.

Also, he said so on his most recent livestream, which I mentioned in this thread on Zahel.

It's Jezrien's. Szeth started with it, it went to Bridge 4, and it was stolen in Oathbringer. At the end of the book it's given to Moash, thus revealing the source of the earlier theft.

He killed at least one Thunderclast. We're also getting Vasher, either next week, or in two other preview chapters. I'm hoping when we see him it's because of Nightblood.

Good point. So probably there is Voidlight, and it sounds like it can power surgebinding. I still think we haven't seen any Voidbinding done yet, with the possible exception of whatever the hell Renarin does. He seems to have one Surgebinding surge and one Voidbinding surge, due to his altered spren. Did we see the voidbinding equivalent of Illumination earlier in the book? Regardless of Renarin, both the Fused and Yelig-nar use the common surgebinding surges. They don't use any voidbinding, and if you look at the voidbinding chart, there are two symbols within the giant red crystal at the center, and neither of those two symbols are connected to any of the surges around the outside. When we finally see voidbinding, I don't think we'll miss it. I expect it to be significant and clearly distinct from surgebinding. I don't know where we'll see it, though. The Unmade have to be connected.

I've been rewatching The Good Place, and one of the hallmarks of that show is how fast things move. The creator had a quote, something along the lines of, "We want people to know where the show is going, we just want to get there four episodes sooner than they expect." Brandon is going the place we expect him to, he's just doing it sooner than we expected. This is what my mind went to, as well. These are Stoneward Fused, but as others have pointed out, each brand of Fused has only one form of surgebinding. Also we would be good to remember that we really haven't seen any voidbinding, and that the Fused don't seem capable of voindbinding, either. Or, maybe, there simply isn't any voidlight because Odium has chosen not to bestow his power in any way. I agree that the missing surge would be one of the Bondsmith surges, which means either Cohesion or Tension. I think Cohesion is what the engineer/architect Fused are using, so count my prediction as No Tension Fused. We'll see how many other brands we are introduced to.

I'm going to be honest, this was the first chapter that I finished and really couldn't stand the fact that there's nothing more to read. I'm incorrigible, so I'll be back here next week, but man, November 17 is looking too far away. Forty-two days remaining, and it's finally become a burden instead of a pleasure. At least I get to look forward to Vasher next week. Looking forward to that. As for this chapter, the cast of characters around Venli grows, with Raboniel and the Pursuer as well-lit characters who will drive much of the story from the Fused perspective. Jasnah has definitely reached the Fourth Ideal, and she was almost certainly in her shardplate during the Battle of Thaylen Field. Dalinar, who knows, Brandon isn't being very forthright with us about his ideals. Shallan had spoken the fourth, but regressed, and maybe partitioned that part of her off into Radiant, given that we saw Shallan as Radiant in armor during the battle, too. Moash, on the other hand, is right to caution the Fused against Kaladin, although we'll see what kind of threat Kaladin can pose to their plans. Even though he's been moping and despondent, he still managed to kill Mr. Pursuer, and as a leader he's worth more than that. I expect the assault to happen after the Syl interlude, which I'm putting between part 1 and part 2. Part 1 looks like preparations for the assault on Urithiru and expedition to Lasting Integrity. Part 2 is the journey to LI and the attack on Urithiru. Part 3/4/5, who knows.

Yeah, I just thought it was perfect that Mraize simply says, no, not the soldiers, and everyone here is like, yup, it can't be the soldiers. There are reasons for this, starting with the fact that it would be dumb, from an author's standpoint, to waste a mystery on something mundane. The point of finding who killed Ialai is to draw Shallan deeper into the Ghostbloods. The assassination needs to serve a purpose in the story, which is simply not served if the answer is a simply spy. The spy has to be....special, somehow. Updated to 21 / 15 / 15. I prefer a different split: 25 think is was Shallan, 26 think it was not Shallan. For all the gnashing I've heard about how problematic and/or actually measurably harmful it would be to play into the murderous hidden identity trope, it sure seems to be the favorite.

Turns out we're all completely gullible. All Mraize has to do to throw us off the scent is...deny it was them.

I like where you're going with this, @Kingsdaughter613, but I think @Oltux72 is closer to correct. Anything given to you by Endowment is still of Endowment, and Connected to Endowment. Things like Connection (and Identity) act a little bit more like universal forces in the Cosmere, so the gift part, while astute, doesn't really fit. You can be endowed with power, but that power is still affected by Connection and Identity, just as much as the gift you got for your last birthday is still affected by Gravity and Friction. That's the equivalent of what Mraize is trying to do: stop Gravity or Friction from affecting objects, for a time or permanently. It's just that instead of something we can feel viscerally and interact with constantly, it's something more abstract, that is the fantastical part of this world we're exploring instead of a part of the reality we share.

@ftl I linked it in my post on Vasher. Comment and direct youtube link

I was just listening to Brandon's livestream, which is here, and he answered a question about Vasher and Vivenna, saying we'll see one of them, and a reference to the other, in a book coming out this November. We might see one of them in two chapters, as Tor is releasing them, he goes on to say, smirking, and moves on to the next question. So, that means we're seeing Vasher. No chance it's Vivenna, given we last saw her in Shadesmar, staying in Shadesmar, refusing to go with our heroes back to the Physical Realm. Vasher is in Urithiru, or was, and we'll see him before the book is released. Probably from Kaladin's viewpoint, but I'm hoping for Navani and Dalinar, and will settle for Shallan. Not sure if two chapters meant chapter 15, two chapters from now, or two different chapters.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine There are many wonderful parts of this sketch, but the expression on the parrot is what seals it.