Bliev

I mean, I think she’s used to being the only one who takes scholarship seriously so she expects that Shallan has what we call a performance orientation vs a learning or growth orientation: I’ll learn to get my accolades and a spot at court, not for the sake of it. Jasnah has bonded a spren. She is seeking knowledge to save the world. It makes sense that she would see art as less important toward this end, until she sees Shallan’s passion come through it. I think then she sees its usefulness as a tool for learning for her.

@The traveller maybe. But seems to me the highspren are very particular about the letter of the law, so even the semblance of change would offend them: Other orders may have felt differently, which I imagine we will find out when we learn more spren politics. for awhile I had a pet theory that the Honorspren were in on the recreance as the “most honorable” course of action given the risk of destruction, but because I read a wob that said the bond can be dissolved voluntarily if both sides agreed, I couldn’t figure out how to betray something that had agreed to be betrayed. (and ever since I had my youngest kid my brain has been too busy with parenting and professoriate to entertain more theories of my own; so I just read yours. Lol)

@The traveller It’s possible that after the recreance, no other shardblades were given up, as it served mostly to warn spren off of creating new bonds or the rest of the (below fifth ideal) spren bonds were broken by agreement, not betrayal. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t find that allies to the spren weren’t hiding them to protect their dead-eye loved ones from being tools for the humans. The spren-side perspective is what I think I’m looking most forward to if Adolin awakens/bonds Maya.

@The traveller It’s possible that after the recreance, no other shardblades were given up, as it served mostly to warn spren off of creating new bonds or the rest of the (below fifth ideal) spren bonds were broken by agreement, not betrayal. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t find that allies to the spren weren’t hiding them to protect their dead-eye loved ones from being tools for the humans. The spren-side perspective is what I think I’m looking most forward to if Adolin awakens/bonds Maya.

I’m looking forward to seeing whether, or how, both of them bond with spren. The process of going through the ideals will be unlike what they’ve done before...but I doubt we can find two more broken spirit webs anywhere! Seeing the bonds progress when we already know how broken someone is a story Brandon hasn’t really told yet. I don’t know if I agree with your theory, but I do have doubts about the commonly accepted Dustbringer/Stoneward classification. I know that’s what’s been foreshadowed, but sans POV chapters and spren, I think anything can happen! And I’m down for all of it. Haha edit: although I’ll be totally down for shalash already being a fully formed Dustbringer after her centuries of destruction, we just haven’t seen her spren yet. Haha

Jasnah (never read a character like her before and I cannot wait for her book in the back 5!) Shallan (fascinating—I can never put her chapters down) Lift (she makes me smile)

Happy Christmas to me!!

@The Awakened Salad I guffawed at the pink chicken slippers. Too much. Given his experience, though, maybe he'd have called them pink aviar slippers?

I think it's important to note, too, @Tommen that even Kaladin's more "enlightened" view of slavery is based more in his own experiences than in a broader sense of justice, at least at first. The interaction with the Parshmen in OB when he spoke about how he understood them because he was branded as a slave: This then results in some real growth for Kal where he realizes that he believes himself to be benevolent, yes, but he doesn't truly think of the Parshmen as "human". This isn't the *same* of course, but it does note that Kal was not completely enlightened on slavery beyond his own experiences as a slave and his hatred of the light eyes. He has to grow in this area too, just as Shallan does. Both of them learn that the world is not what they always thought it was, the comfort of that order is no more comfort. And that's a source of growth for both of them.

To be fair, in our preview of the book 4 prologue it read less “love” and more “animal attraction”, which may be more understandable? :-D

@Elegy I love that WOB. It's one of my favorites because it manages to solve a mystery while adding even more details to the characters of Hoid and Gavilar. I think the prologue in stormlight 5 will really bring that arc to an interesting conclusion because we still don't quite know just what Gavilar knew and who he was cavorting with. Hoid obviously knew...

I think that's a fine theory! Just one I don't necessarily subscribe too. ;-) I do think there were probably high storm spren, though? Maybe the "storm striders" Kal sees are the spren of the storm from long ago? Stormlight is gaseous investiture that is currently provided/subsumed into Honor, so I'm sure there was, as suggested, an early version of gaseous investiture that was of Adonalsium on the planet. Probably what inspired Tanavast to manifest in the way he did. Regardless, what I love about this convo is how many questions Brandon has left us to ponder and find the answers to. I remember my first read of mistborn back in 2013 and my months-long rabid cosmere reading and when I found the Coppermind back then and WHEW all the answers we've gotten since! Maybe we'll get some of these answered when Stormlight 4 comes out??

I can get behind this (and, plot twist, I DID when you posted it a year ago, haha!). But I suppose my larger point still stands--could void binding be powered by something other than voidlight, as investiture is investiture, yes? Maybe with some small differences. It's hard to tell with Lift because she's a unique case in this scenario, thus it's hard to be able to try and describe her as possibly using "cultivation's investiture" because she's just...different...in every way. So, there are three major forms of magic on Roshar (plus the old magic) per that Argent WOB, and also three forms of investiture (per the three shards). The investiture could likely power all three forms of magic, thus the differences in the forms of magic wouldn't necessarily be due to diff types of investiture but something else all together, as per your allegory with the three types of magic on Scadrial. TL;DR: yes i agree with you. haha

Agreed. WE've seen that some investiture is "substitutable": But it's not clear to me whether the difference in voidbinding and surgebinding is due to the type of investiture or the type of spren, if that makes sense? can cultivation's magic be powered by stormlight and vice versa? Probably? But maybe with some different manifestations?

I think that's the whole point of having Dalinar be the most powerful Radiant we have seen--in no way can you categorize him as "good". He was a genocidal maniac! But he is trying to be better, and is adhering to the oaths he has made--holding onto an honorable intention. And so long as his spren accepts his progress/intention, then it seems he'll remain Radiant and have access to that sort of power. All of the Radiants are three dimensional with very real weaknesses that make them less than "good" (save maybe Kal, whose flaw is depression, thus in the immortal words of Jane Austen, "you have chosen your fault well--I really cannot laugh at it"). Voidlight and Stormlight are both investiture--as is cultivation light. I'm sure it can power magic--much like metal is a conduit to investiture in mistborn, but the So I am confident that cultivation's investiture will come into the picture soon--aside from how she has been empowering the Nightwatcher and cultivating her as her godspren. Now, with that said, I am curious about how the orders of spren organize themselves around cultivation and honor. Like, edge dancer spren seem to be associated with cultivation or the night watcher (Wyndle calls her "mother", the vines, etc.). Honorspren, likewise, with Honor. But we have yet to see a "real" Edgedancer that isn't using weird investiture like Lift, so take an upvote for the theory that there's something with "cultivation light" that might be happening with the Edgedancers...until we see more of them, it's hard to tell...

You all need to do a Drunk History-esque version of Shardcast just so I can hear if Ben's pronunciation improves with alcohol. :-D

I think the coppermind specifically infers that Honor created the Stormfather and likewise Cultivation with the Nightwatcher, and without evidence otherwise, I think I’ll stick with that as my own personal theory. I think highstorms predate the shattering per WOB but the Stormfather was a spren created by Honor—first as less sapient and later as his splinter. But it is definitely worth discussing pending future information!

I'm sorry, I was looking high and low for this information, bc I knew of the WOB that the highstorms were native to Roshar, but had not read that the Stormfather as spren predated Honor. Could you point me to that WOB?

I would separate out the Stormfather and the Unmade. The Stormfather was less sentient when Honor was alive, until imbued intentionally with Honor's power and the visions, etc. He was created by Honor, and could bond humans, but was not what he is now. So I quibble just a bit with the idea that he was "something else" before he became a godspren. I do not think that the Stormfather or the Nightwatcher existed before Honor and Cultivation settled on Roshar. Please correct me if I am wrong! However, I do wonder if Cultivation saw how Honor intentionally empowered the Stormfather when he knew his death was imminent and is likewise beginning to cultivate similarly with the Nightwatcher as she sees the impending battle looming?

I think that the intent of Cultivation--to take the long game, to gently urge growth and change--is what is really captured in the name "Nightwatcher". Cultivation watches, deliberates, acts in small and subtle ways--like Cass Sunstein's gentle nudges. Likewise, the Nightwatcher watches humanity--she learns how to nudge their behavior in certain ways. She is being cultivated--trained--by her mother to cultivate others on her mother's behalf. That's how I see it. But unlike Honor, she cannot just infuse her spren with the knowledge and will and sentience to achieve a task when she dies, it must be grown and cultivated. And I think she knows she will--or even intends to--die in this battle with Odium. I think it is this long game that might just be the bane of Odium's existence. We have seen that his future sight is more limited than Cultivation's, as it is filtered through his anger and hatred (i.e., he saw Dalinar as Champion; she saw the possibility of it, but yet others as well). He acts, where she watches. Some perceive this as cowardice? I see it as patience. I agree with the link to the Truthwatchers, though--makes sense there would be a link there. I also think that one of the generative components of the "don't trust those who can see the future" or "future sight is of the enemy" is the variance that exists in the future, and how people may, almost fatalistically, live up to expectations if they know what the future will hold. Teaching people to mistrust this future sight reminds people to take responsibility for their actions, to not ascribe them to "fate" or "fortune". I also think that's why Cultivation is "better" at it--she's more comfortable with ambiguity and being hand's off. Odium likes to be in control. Again, my own speculation .

Yeah, I think the Shadesmar scenes showed that pretty well, and I doubt they would have been included if they weren't pertinent. Maya isn't "dead". She's like a zombie, wandering aimlessly, forgetting who and what she is. But the screaming alone is enough to show that the "dead eyes" aren't truly dead. I really like the idea of seeing Bondsmith power in action through the healing of Maya, allowing them to bond, and then building a coalition and finding allies by making amends for the recreance, not just apologizing for it. That's very much in line with the whole "taking responsibility" theme, I'd say. I do want to say that I am sympathetic to @Ahriman in that we have few characters who are not Radiant, so it would be nice for some to remain. But then again, Brandon has said that spren bonds are more likely when others have occurred nearby, so maybe it's to be expected.

Khriss. As I am also a know-it-all professor obsessed with learning, I think we would totes be besties.

The scene we get of Cultivation interacting with Dalinar in OB gives no hints that she sent Evi to him or foreshadowing it even via allusion. Not very "Brandon", if the avatar idea is correct. :-) I like the thought, but think RShara is right here. In any event, a SpiritWeb Corpse? That's really cool, too. Has amazing implications for what the future of Roshar might look like as the people fight Odium's forces and Dalinar comes to terms with his growing powers.

I like where you're going...but agree with RShara on the likely ending of the SA. But what if Bavadin (i.e., Autonomy) is the real "Big Bad"? Letting Rayse fight her battles for her while laying the groundwork to take over the Cosmere?

Love this episode. The Hoid/Shallan collabo (look for their mixtape on soundcloud lol) is one of my favorite scenes and I love that you dug down on this one. Can't wait for episode 2. And 3. And 7. IRT to "crackpot theories" I love them all...and I vacillate between two: the Rosharan-centric and the Hoid-centric. In the first, I think it's describing the moment when Honor and Cultivation began to notice the humans and turn their backs on the Singers. Yes, they broke an oath, which may have caused Honor to turn his wrath (the storms) toward them. But then they flourished and grew, which I'm sure Cultivation just loved. This would dovetail well with the big reveal of OB. But, in the latter, it's more a hat-tip toward the thinking that the story has morphed from its origins to be more understandable to the Rosharans (i.e., "stormlight") while Hoid is really hearkening back to a story that is an allegory of his own origin story. He shares knowledge with the humans that, yes, might bring suffering upon them, but is also necessary to move the "plot" (his plot) forward. And the little bit of God's light is really the residue of the shattering of adonalsium that still resides within him and leads him to where he needs to go. So, in essence, he see's himself as the girl (hence the addition of the hair). Regardless, if it's plot-important, I'm sure we'll find it out. But if Argent's right about it merely being world-building, then it may have already served its plot-purpose and we may never know.