Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

Here is how I think they stack up: 1. Oathbringer 2. Words of Radiance 3. Way of Kings Oathbringer is my favorite book of all times, and the Stormlight Archive is my favorite series of all times. Way of Kings is a great book, but it suffers somewhat from the repetitive nature of how much you have to see Kaladin beaten down. His swearing of the first ideal is better for the build up, but it's also a slow slog through it when you re-read it or re-listen to the audiobook. Words of Radiance was amazing, it still wasn't my favorite book of all times, but it was close. Shallan's story arc was awesome in WoR, her infiltration of the ghostbloods, her betrothal to Adolin (the shardplate discussion at the restaraunt at the end of the high storms is still one of the comedic high points of the whole series), but you also have plot lines that at the time were important, but are also somewhat tedious on a second reading or second listening (the investigation of the King's snore strap, I mean horse strap, what a snoozer, and Shallan's childhood is painful to wade through multiple times). Oathbringer is amazing. Absolutely amazing. Each part is this would have been one of the best books that I have ever read on it's own, the climax to part 1 with the battle with Reshephir is how a very great writer would finish their book. That's just the end of part 1 in Oathbringer.

Possible Odious loophole to an otherwise devious plan, here is the pledge that Odium makes to Taravangian (emphasis mine): "Any humans who have been born into it", seems like very strange language, this suggests he might be leaving out the elliptical qualifier of Natively born to it, meaning this wording would only cover Life native to Roshar, the listeners, but then they too are excluded by the "any human" qualifier. So this could essentially be a null promise, making this an agreement for Odiumj to save any human listener that can have their ancestry traced back to Kharbranth. Pretty easy promise to keep. The other interesting way for Odium to wriggle out of this promise deals with the second emphasized passage "If you have an agreement from me, I will keep it in spirit, not merely in word". Who is the shard trapped in damnation with the deathless souls of listeners? This might be the salvation for Kharbranthians that Odium imagines, saving them from final death by imprisoning their souls in damnation eternally. Kharbranthians might not thank Mr. T for this one though. Too bad T is having a dense day, he might have seen these potentially catastrophic loopholes if he was smart enough to rule out the polygamy option because not enough people would pass his IQ tests.

Exaclty! And this can change location, shape and function at the speed of thought. Very cool idea.

Rad, nice visual too. Ok, so we have a WoB that the spren weapon can only be roughly human sized in length, that's just a limitation, we can work with that. Some quick possible thoughts with the new given size limation: Police style spike traps (for non-lethal troop immobilization, maybe used by a certain soft-hearted windrunner) If we are going for the ultimate in awesomeness for thrown weapons, why not the Glaive from Krull (assumming it maintains it's thought controlled flight characteristics, which seems reasonable): How about a spren Garrote, this would be a brutal spren weapon to be sure, but I could see it being used attached to the end of a lasso (like wonder woman's magic lasso) but instead the lasso part is a super fine string capable of cutting, yet still remarkably strong. This could also possibly be changed to be dull to detain and capture as well. How about this one too, an Indiana Jones style bullwhip, where the tip of the whip can cut through objects in the physical realm as well as through the Fused. Could also be used in dull mode for radiant escapes who don't have the benefit of flying. How about this too, a glove or even just a half sphere with a handle that functions as both a shield and a projecting weapon that can be tailored, swiss army knife style, into whatever particular implement is best suited for getting past the enemies defenses. A bit like Robert Patton's T-1000 terminator in terminator 2. Or for shock factor, a fingernail that is long (like a Seanchan finger nail), that can creepily grow and kill it's unsuspecting target. If a spren weapon can be made with moving parts, then a spren swiss army knife would be possible too. Not the best thing to use to open your bottle of violet wine, but sometimes you have to use what you have. Just some intial thoughts, will have to think more about this knowing about the size constraint...Interesting though.

Thanks for the clarification, this is an intriguing qualification though: Does this have to do with the limits set by the perception of the spren, if so this would open the possibility for a god sized hammer wielded by a certain bondsmith... Interesting.

I just noticed I posted it to the wrong board... Haven't been posting to the 17th shard that long. Spren tank, interesting. Leonardo Davinci death wagon, freaking rad. I'm sure that there have to be lots of constraints about what form a spren weapon can take, especially difficult with the idea of a tank (which a highly composite entity, composed of a ridiculous number of parts). Maybe Knights Radiants can get together and Voltron up their spren to make an awesome super mech to take out Odium's champion. All interesting to consider for sure.

Ok, so I have recently been spending a fair amount of time thinking about spren weapons and the limits of their adaptability. Some known facts for consideration at the start: Spren weapons can take on a multitude of forms (Sword, spear, long knife, shield, and of a course a fork) Spren weapons are cognitive entities manifest in the physical realm with the following properties. They can cut through physical matter with little to no resistance, affecting the matter in the physical realm (i.e. cutting a convenient hidey hole to wait out a high storm or digging a latrine). They can block other spren weapons They can be blocked by shardplate (which seems to be another physical manifestation of a cognitive realm entity, or assemblage of cognitive realm entities). When they cut through a sentient being, they sever part of that beings connection to the spiritual realm, and if they cut through the beings spine, they sever the connection to the spiritual realm completely resulting in death (and the windows to the soul also turn into puffs of smoke) Some important preliminary considerations: When spren weapons change shape, is there some sort of conservation of mass that takes place? I.e. is there a limit to the volume that a spren weapon can occupy before it looses it's funcitonality? Does the inherent power of the spren blade change with the shape of the weapon (i.e. does a 40 ft long spear, with low density due to its mass being spread out into a large volume affect the object in the physical and cognitive realms with as much potential for change, as say a 1 ft long 1/64" diameter shard needle would (which would be far, far denser than the spear)? Is there an upper limit and a lower limit to the size that a spren weapon can take on? (i.e. could you use a microscopic spren weapon to sever the nucleus of an atom, or could you use a 200 foot long 40 foot wide at the head spatula with spikes to smite an entire enemy battalion?) How far away from the KR could the spren maintain it's manifestation as a weapon? (Could you with a powerful spyglass, and a spren arrow, take out an enemy fused from 300 yards like Teleb's arrow shot at Dalinar). If there are limits to the size of the spren weapon, can a KR use stormlight to increase the mass of their spren weapon to allow for larger more powerful spren weapons? Do spren weapons need to be based on in-world objects? (i.e. does there have be a cognitive pattern for a spren to be based on?) Can spren weapons have moving parts? (i.e. could you have a pair of spren garden shears, where the spren is both handles, the joining screw and the blades of the shears, or can a spren weapon only be a more unitary whole? It seems to me that a spren weapon mimicking a spear is comprised of at least 2 separate parts that make up the whole of the spear (the haft and the blade) so it seems logical to assume that spren weapons can be multi-part in design). All the preliminaries out of the way here is the fun speculation part: Spren Arrow: Imagine if you will, a suitably stormlight powered knight, with a shard bow and a never ending quiver of the same spren arrow. Convenient that the fused can all be taken down by a shot to the heart (there is wisdom in Bon Jovi). One KR so equipped, and also wearing unlashable shardplate could easily take out a legion of flying fused. Spren Cage of Death: Ok, so depending on if you can create more substantive matter for your spren weapon or not by feeding of Stormlight, here is another possibility. A KR, without access to shardplate, could conceivable instruct their spren to become a ball, shaped kind of like a land mine (with lots of sharp projecting bits), that would fully encapsulate said KR. This being done, a small eye slit is left in said ball so that the knight radiant can see and possibly some more holes to work their lashings. Then, like in Kaladin's fight with fused in Kholinar, cross purpose gravitational lashings are used to create motion and spin, and then the KR rotating spinning death ball crashes through a whole phalanx of the fused that can change their carapace). End of phalanx. Spren Kusarigama (or Ninja chain sickle): Imagine if you will, an edgedance gliding through a crowded formation of enemy fused, spinning like a freaking top, wielding a Kusarigame (that awesome weapon from Martial Arts movies that is a stick, attached to a chain which is attached to a sickle). Sounds like a gemheart breaker to me, of course this edgedancer would probably also need to be wearing shardplate. Death Needle: Say you have a KR with an uncanny ability to see (like a truthwatcher), looking at an enemy general 200 yards away. Why, just point your hand truthwatcher and have your spren death needle course the 600 ft of distance in the time it took you to think about it, to shatter that poor beast's gemheart. Tripwire: Say you need to capture an enemy, why not have your friendly neighborhood lightweaver paint herself into a corner where the target is known to frequent. As she sees said target approaching, she, with the speed of thought, sends out a razor sharp trip wire across the target's path and after the target's spiritual connection to his/her legs is severed, changes her spren weapon into an an anvil to comically knock said target out with. I could do this all day, but sadly I have to work. Looking forward to your ideas on pushing the envelope of what spren weapons could do.

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, I haven't read this whole thread, I've got to actually get some work done today. Anyone else feel that the release of Oathbringer is probably going to have an effect on global GDP by decreasing aggregate global productivity by a couple of percentage points? The first ideal is the first ideal, the necessary foundation for leading a moral and principled life. The second ideal is about protecting those without the capacity to protect themselves (strength before weakness). This is a small circle that allows you to protect just those you are personally attached to. The third ideal is about protecting even those you hate if it's the right thing to do (life before death). This is a wider circle that causes the radiant in question to evaluate the selfish motivation behind the impulse to protect, it's the beginning of the crack in the protect out of love ethos that Kaladin has had from childhood. I think that the fourth ideal is "Accept that you can't protect everyone". This is similar to Shallan being who she is because she stood up. This is the greatest internal dilemma for Kaladin, his inability to accept that he fails to protect everyone. I personally believe that he will be a Radiant without plate, that he will never swear the fourth ideal, and that he will somehow manifest powers that no Windrunner has ever had because of his choice to NOT accept that he can't save everyone. Love is a finite substance in life, the more it is invested in more than one object the less powerful it becomes, because their are inherent contradictions involved in loving multiple people. At some point Love has to pick a favorite, one must benefit at the cost of another, one must live and another must die. This is something, as far as I read Kaladin's character, he could never accept. Once he sees the humanity in someone, he is fully invested in that person/listener and wants to protect them and will continue to beat himself up if he fails. I personally wouldn't have Kaladin any other way, I think it's his most remarkable trait.

I am pretty sure this is the story of Hoid stealing Adonalsium prior to the Shattering of Adonalsium. When this is first told as the girl who looked up, the little girl's hair changes to white during the ascent of the wall. Also, in the letter epigraph to Hoid from Chapter 42, Consequences we have the following: The key part there is Bearer of the First Gem. At the book signing in Beaverton Oregon, I asked Brandon the following question: "Is Hoid really the Girl Who Looked Up?" (at this point Brandon looked up, with a somewhat shocked expression) "Is this the story of the shattering of Adonalsium? Did the ones who broke the god into shards do so to investigate the constituent components of Divinity? Like how in Oathbringer we find that Odium is not wholly bad, he is also the source of Passion, and how if the world were ruled by Honor alone it would be barren of emotion?" He said that this was on the right track, but not exactly right. I didn't record the audio of this (I wanted a picture with Brandon), so this doesn't have the weight of an official WoB, but I am pretty sure from his reaction that the Girl Who Looked Up story directly relates to Hoid stealing the First Gem, which was Adonalsium incarnate.

Totally agree, perhaps the vacillation in intelligence is the continuous agency of Cultivation, the means of assuring that Taravangian acts in the fashion that Cultivation wants him to. Some situations it is important for him to be an empathetic figure head, some situations it's important for him to alter the course of the Diagram drastically to achieve a particular aim. We know that cultivation, like Odium is gifted with future vision, so it's highly likely that she is playing a long term hand with Mr. T acting as her trump card.

Taravangian asked for the capacity to stop what was coming and for the capacity to save humankind. I think that his actions might be unwittingly serving the forces of the greater good. Take for instance his sending the Assassin in white to try and kill Dalinar Kholin. Every piece in motion is part of a larger whole, without that directive, Kaladin most likely wouldn't have sworn the 3rd ideal. Also, Szeth wouldn't have found his external framework of justice without having seen Dalinar, and hence he wouldn't have brought Nightblood to the battle of Thaylena Field, and the Drop of Honor wouldn't have been recovered in time to imprison the thrill. All things are connected, and though T thinks he has some agency in the playing out of his boon of saving humanity and stopping the Desolation, my feeling is that he is going to continue to act in a utilitarian fashion, moving pieces to achieve his ends without realizing that the pieces he has moved are ultimately going to end up doing something totally different than what he expects them too. He will most likely have more blood on his hands before the front 5 books are done, but he will also have unwittingly helped out Dalinar and Co through his intrinsically reprehensible actions. His attempts to achieve his limited aims will end helping the efforts of achieving the greater good.

Ok, so I really do have to get back to real life, but I did want to mention why some these actually didn't bother me, and why instead I thought they were great. Szeth's appearance and how easily he was brought into the fold: When he first appears, the human side looks like an unwinable position. Sadeas troops are human voidbringer Thrill puppets. The thunderclasts are tearing apart the city, the Singer armada is waiting as the ultimate reserve force and the fused are everywhere. You don't say no to help when your back is against the wall. Also, I think that a simple explanation of Szeth explaining the nature of his 3rd ideal to Dalinar, and the further explanation that he was the assassin in white because of his oathstone would be all the explanation that Dalinar would need before Szeth is promoted to Captain of his personal guard. Szeth with Nightblood fighting the ultimate evil force, I felt so happy for Nightblood. Moash's arc mirroring Kaladin's: This, I thought, was masterful. It's the small variations that cause the major shifts. Each moment where it looked like Moash was back on the road to bridge four and redemption, he turned away. He is walking apathy, he regrets all of his choices yet he keeps making bad choices initially because he is unable to let go of his hatred, and finally because he wants to blow it all up. Hatred leads to apathy, apathy leads to Nihilism and Nihilism leads to the Dark Side. Rad. All of part 5 being a huge battle sequence: This is the first chance for the Desolation to have any bite, you have a fractured coalition of the humans with a rag tag dispersed group of fledgling Knights Radiants. It's believable that they are about to swept away, but more importantly, it's believable how they stood and turned the tide of the battle. I think that the constant shifts of POV were incredibly well done, in a battle of this magnitude, taking place across 2 realms no less, it's amazing how clear, vivid and chronologically this is presented. And Jasnah, HOLY CRAP, how could Odium win when Jasnah is on the other side. Dispatching 3 Fused while she waits her fingernail polish to dry (an exaggeration, but pretty close to the spirit of the scene), how freaking awesome was that? Amaram finally getting his gemheart broken, but the big reveal that he had given into Odium's big lie, that he can take the pain and the responsibility away for actions that you should rightly be ashamed of. Brilliant. Instead of Yelig'nar, someone should have given Amaram a hug and a crystal growing kit. He probably could have been saved if Kaladin had gotten to him earlier. Syl and Pattern mostly being absent from the dialogue in parts 4 and 5: In Part 4, they are traveling through Shadesmar, there is some dialog, but it is subdued because the readers should be experiencing it from a human perspective like Kaladin, SHallan and Adolin. It's a matter of world building, where too much exposition might have decreased the mysterious nature of the realm (in my opinion at least). Holy crap, the art for spren is so amazing, and how only certain parts of the spren manifest in the physical realm is beyond awesome. I love the drawings of the Mandras (sp?) and how their arrow like heads manifest in the physical realm. Part 5 is a long battle, not a great time to chat with your spren. Shallan's mental problems not being resolved: This seems like an important step for Shallan, I think the Girl Who Stood Up took her a long ways to accepting who she is, I think that how Adolin sees her true self (and loves her true self) takes her further towards accepting who she is, but there is still a piece missing from her understanding (maybe it's even the Dalinar epiphany about how the next step is the most important), but I think this is by design that she ended in this quasi-progressed state. Sets the stage for her getting her shardplate in book four, pretty rad in my opinion. I thought you summed up a lot of the points that people had problems with, these are just my two cents, but it's also a given that this is my favorite book of all times and I am completely blown away this book. I surpassed my expectations (which were ridiculously high after the TOR preview chapter reads) and I can't wait to look through for more details on my second time through.

I think this vote is flawed, there was no 15 out of 10 option. Holy crap, this is the best book I've ever read, and I've read a lot. Sure, there are slow parts, but that is all part of building dramatic tension. Some specific comments to comments: This is not the only aspect of Odium shown, we also have the scorching, flaying ever flame version that is a good aspect for an arch villain to have, especially if said arch-villian is still bound in Damnation. The visionary chats with Odium were somewhat reminiscent of Ishamael pretending to be the dark one in the WoT, though while less than terryfying, he was still trying to subtly manipulate his chosen champion into a position where he would break when he wanted him to. I wasn't a big fan of the Nohadon shopping trip vision, but he was attempting to undercut a figure of symbolic importance in Dalinar's life with a silly watered down version of the ideal. The interesting thing (I thought) to note was that in visions with Venli he appeared as a Singer, in visions with Dalinar he appeared as a Shin man, but he always retained a golden sceptre. There were 4 moments in this book where I was so overcome with emotion that I actually cried. I am having a hard time re-entering normal life, thank god for the Audio book narrated by Michael Kramer and Kate Reading. I can do some semblance of work as I go through this amazing book a second time. I know that part 5 has been getting kind of a bad rap, but this was setting the stage for: I loved WoK, I thought WoR was twice as good as WoK, and I think Oathbringer is 10x as good as WoR. Leave it to Brandon to break the logarythmic scale. I can't wait for book four, wish I was a Cadmium misting. I would get a cooler full of sandwhiches, made with roast beef, swiss cheese and garnished with Cadmium red paint, and make the 4 years pass in a contented blur while I reread books 1 through 3 at least 20 times in preparation for the mind blowing book 4.

I read this as a possible after effect of her having used her transportation surge. A way to link the apparently random enemies falling all around Adolin with Jasnah as the direct cause of this (like she is using something akin to gateways in the WOT to make soldiers fall through the air). The geometric shapes I thought were just a curious artifact of the use of this surge. But reading it again in context, it sure does seem like possible cousin spren dissipating away from dismissed shardplate. Very interesting.

Granted! Now look out your 15th story high rise apartment window and wave at Godzilla, hope you have a lot of double decker buses filled with tourists to feed him, he looks hungry. I wish that I had a magical loaf of Tillamook Medium cheddar cheese, that would always taste as delicious as when you first open it, never spoil, that could be cut and enjoyed by my family and friends and that would always return back to its original size after you have cut a slice from it. Come on Nightwatcher, that's a great wish!

That Haka war dance is freaking rad, holy crap, that is totally how you summon the Everstorm. I love how the guys on the opposing team look really, really nervous too.

With all the new punk rock/ death metal-esque Listener Rhythms coming online with storm form, thought it would be fun to see what you hear in your head when you think of a particular Listener rhythym. Here's a sorted list of the different rhythms from coppermind with some links to suggestions (new storm form rhythyms at the end): Rhythm of Amusement[30] Rhythm of Annoyance[28] Rhythm of Anticipation[31] Rhythm of Anxiety[28] Rhythm of Awe[32] Rhythm of Appreciation[28] Rhythm of Betrayal[28] Rhythm of Confidence[33] Rhythm of Consideration[28] Rhythm of Curiosity[30] Rhythm of Derision[33] Rhythm of Excitement[30] Rhythm of Irritation[28] Rhythm of Joy[33] Rhythm of Lost[30] Rhythm of Mourning[30] Rhythm of Peace[33] Rhythm of Pleading[28] Rhythm of Praise[30] Rhythm of Remembrance[28] Rhythm of Reprimand[30] Rhythm of Resolve[30] Rhythm of Satisfaction[33] Rhythm of Skepticism[30] Rhythm of Supplication[28] Rhythm of Tension[33] Rhythm of Winds Rhythm of Craving[31] (new rhythm) Rhythm of Destruction[33] (new rhythm) Rhythm of Fury[33] (new rhythm) Rhythm of Ridicule[33] (new rhythm) Rhythm of Spite[33] (new rhythm)

Granted, you get a Chouta and a severe anaphylactic reaction to soulcast meat. I wish that pluto was still a planet (so sad).

Agreed, it was really just the appeal of the highly improbable long con, the seemingly peace loving society secretly harboring the master plan of Odium, waiting for this the final desolation before they stuck the knife in the back of the world. Interesting to speculate, but not really a great narrative route to go down. I can agree that this is not a highly productive route for speculation, consider it dead and buried (though no stone was harmed in the burial of this theory).

Ok, totally looney theory here, but what the heck. What if the Shin are Odium's people? More specifically, what if they are the lighteyes of Odium and the Listeners are the darkeyes? Some supporting facts: Yixli, the Spren seen by Kaladin in the meetup city for the awakened parshmen is described as having Shin eyes, also the strange manner in which the stone always rises up to meet her feet. In the Interlude venli describes Ulim the spren as looking like a human, but with strange eyes. Could they be perhaps Shin eyes? Now the big shocker, the honor blades were gather by the shins after Aharietiam because they were meant to be kept out of the hands of the opponents of Odium. This is more along the lines of this speculation, but what if Szeth was named truthless because he took up the sword, not to fight against the desolation, but to fight for it. Perhaps the Stone Shamans back in Shinovar are the ageless masters that Ulim speaks of as well. I'm sure this theory will be shot down in short order, but interesting to think about.

Very nice chart, down in flames again, but like the phoenix right? Rise up from the ashes, stronger and better for the crashing and burning. Really, it's pretty awesome, I just have to let this sink in a bit, but this is very interesting.

I had never thought of that. Holy crap, a separate spren that is the vehicle for the Nahel bond that gives access to 2 specific surges. And @Blacksmithki i totally get your point now about emotional spren (like gloryspren, fearspren, etc.) and force spren. I was thinking before my mind was blown, that the nahel bond was granted by a spren representing one of the 2 surges that the surgebinder has access to, so to take Kaladin as an example, that Syl was a manifestation of the force of adhesion (as that seemed a good symbolic fit for honor, keeping disparate things together). But if I get what you are saying correctly, she is just what she says she is, she is the personification of the ideal of honor, and because she is that particular type of spren she has the ability when joined with Kaladin to grant him the use of the 2 surges of adhesion and gravitation. I think I can hear the sound of my house of cards toppling as I type, one more speculation down... I upvoted you both, good to be proven wrong when there is some amazing thought that goes into the disproving.

It's not my point to prove that one set of surges is of an emotional nature and the other is just pure force, it's rather that in world, the people in Roshar have come to the conclusion that there are two fundamentally different points of origin for the forces that are described as surges, one set clearly from honor and the other set clearly from cultivation. The thing that really convinces me of this is the Double Eye of god chart that shows the linkages and relationships between all the orders of the Knights radiant, and the fact that their are 2 shards and 10 surges, it seems like it's logical to have a symmetrical system in which each shard is responsible for half of the surges (or that each of their investitures created 5 of the 10 surges). This idea leads me to believe that with voidbinding have 10 different orders, that likewise Odium's power would contribute to 5 additional surges, and that it would use some other form of manifesting than the Nahel bond (which I believe is stated to be a thing of Honor, but I don't have the specific reference for this).This is fun to speculate because it leads to question like, what is the mechanism whereby the voidbringers access surges of Cultivation (or Honor if @BlackYeti is right about the 10 orders of voidbringers being a mixture of Odium and honor)? How will this different mechanism of accessing these surges alter what the power of that surge can do? Like, a voidbringer accessing the surge of Pressure/Vacuum, could they make an enemy combatant implode? Could they create a bubble of high pressure air, reduce it's volume until the resultant pressure is high enough to break even shard plate (because the surge would be affecting the air around the shardplate, not directed at the plate itself)? Interesting thought experiment stuff like that, that's what I like speculating about.

This, on the other hand, is speculation. I don't recall anyone suggesting that each of the Surges is related to a specific Shard: the generally accepted view is that the Surges are independent of the Shards and that the magics each access all of the ten Surges. Do you have anything to substantiate this claim? So Jasnah and Shallan have a conversation aboard the Wind's Pleasure in Chapter 3, Pattern, where Jasnah discusses the Knights Radiant in depth. The following is transcribed from the audio book (I lent out my physical copy, if someone can copy and paste the passage from the WoR ebook that would be fantastic). The words of the foremost scholar on Spren, and this is specifically stated to be her opinion. So this leads me to believe that this is the true division of the surges. 5 derived from Cultivation, 5 derived from Honor. Regarding what I think the specific divisions of the surges are as far as which ones are emotional and which ones are of Nature, I can only guess, but here are my guesses (TOTAL SPECULATION HERE, the only one that the above confirms is from nature is Gravitation, but I think that it might be implied from the above that Pressure is an emotional surge): HONOR derived emotional surges (based on thinking of investiture in terms of analogs for human relationships, specific reasoning for each surge stated) Adhesion (This is a bondsmith surge, and I am pretty sure Bondsmiths get both of their surges from Honor (from their radiant order position in one of the God eyes spots in the chart that shows the relationships between Knights Radiant. Also pressure could be viewed as the emotional pressure necessary to keep disparate people together in a group, useful for the attritube of Leading or Guiding) Division (the functional antithesis of pressure, could be viewed as the process of severing social bonds perhaps) Abrasion (who hasn't met an abrasive person, this seems like a natural fit for an emotional bond. Could be one of the reasons no one really likes Releasers. I found Malata's character to be annoying and her interaction with Shallan was certainly abrasive) Tension (this is the other bondsmith surge, and it's like long distance adhesion. Keeping things together even though they physically separated. seems to fit to me). ?? Not sure on the fifth one, but if I had to pick I would probably say Transformation (at least how Shallan uses this surge to redeem her rag tag group of followers seems like an emotional transformation to me) CULTIVATION derived nature/force surges: Progression (wyndle refers to the nightwatcher as mother, he's a progression crystal vine thing, I think this is a no brainer and it's one of the 2 truthwatcher surges (which is the other order of Knights Radiant in the God Eye position on the Radiant Order chart). Illumination (this is another truthwatcher surge, and it seems natural to put the surge of light into the nature camp) Gravitation (from the above quote this is directly stated to be a nature/force surge) Transportation (motion in the extreme is a natural force, this one also seems kind of like a no-brainer for the nature camp) ?? not sure on the fifth one, though Cohesion is a natural force. This is just a guess though. That is a very good point, one can still act honorably when angry, it just seems to me that Cultivation is a better fit with Odium. The aspects of cultivation which are in line with growth and development seem like a good fit for honor, while the harsh pitiless aspects of natural disasters and like seem like a good fit for Odium. The alignment point was just how mentally I was picturing the intent of the shard, it was an analogy and probably as you state, out of place and unnecessary. This is just speculation, prior to joining the 17th shard I was posting on the TOR forum. I truly appreciate what you all do here, and the last thing I want to do is spread bad information, but I do love speculating.

The traveling organ thing was a total joke, thought that it being framed by the Princess Bride reference would give it the jokey context that it was supposed to have. The real point was bringing up the fact that Eshonai, as the most likely canidate for being an Willshaper, would have had access to the surge of transportation. I don't think we have enough information about how this surge works for proper speculation on how this might help her to not be mostly dead, but I think it's a valid point.