NotBurtReynolds

It certainly is a more manageable situation, numbers wise, if many of the Radiants hadn’t summoned their blades when breaking their oaths. But what was the point of the KR at Feverstone summoning their blades, knowing they’d be leaving them to others? Why wasn’t just breaking their bond good enough?

It may be a crackpot theory, but at least it’s something to think about. The question, “but where are all the Shardblades?”, is always on my mind. And ‘secret cache’ explanations don’t really do it for me. At Feverstone alone there were what, a few hundred sets of mail and plate? All of them would be claimed in the bloody aftermath. In fact, anywhere this scene was repeated would have the same result; of all of it being claimed. And Shardblade/Plate ownership would be a thing most people public. So you have to think post-Recreance, there would be 100’s, if not 1000’s of Shards that had been battled over...And the winners would be recognized and remembered. But somehow over 2000ish years, Roshar went from arguably 1000+ known Shards to less than 100? Where. Are. The. Shards?

You already know I’m down...Uli Da is Ambition, head-canon confirmed

He can have no beef with Kaladin all he wants...Kaladin has beef with him;)

Hyperbolic, for sure..But it is a fantasy fan forum Trying to fit in...With that being said, if you're going to accuse someone of losing their humanity, a good spot is probably someone is literally fighting on the side of the non-humans and murdered a Herald at the command of a Shard intent on destroying all of humankind;) Now I do think Moash can redeem himself, I just believe the bar to do so to be absurdly high at this point. Redemption via his death or, I don't know say, using a god-metal dagger to kill a god intent on destroying the human race? Now granted, I think if he does that he either dies in the process or picks up the Shard himself, but hey, redemption!;)

This is my kind of Hoid theory! I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a Wob that I think gives some more weight to your theory. Sidebar: I was excited/kind of annoyed when I first read it because it was almost word for word what I was going to ask him at the Chicago signing. Instead of echo, I was going to say a Remainder of some sort after the Division(Shattering) of Adonalsium. Something that doesn't give him the power of a Shard, but something else that can maybe bind one back together. Say he gets a piece of all 16 Shards and those, along with whatever of Adonalsium is imprinted on him, perhaps he could form an Adonalsium Shard, but not the whole Adonalsium. Like the appoximate power of a Shard, but guided by the Whole, not just 1 Intent. Mini-Adonalsium, as it were. If he has something of Adonalsium imprinted on him, it could help explain(I guess?) his next to impossible to kill-ness.

Yea, I would think the Sho Del would have at least one Vessel. Good thought on Ambition, too. Uli Da seems to fit more naturally with Sho Del linguistically, given the names we have representing the other 2 races. Speaking of names, I'm guessing Cephandrius was Hoid's Yolen name? Was this known prior to OB?

Yea, confuses me too I haven't read the Dragonsteel Prime chapter he released on his website a few months ago, but I think they were mentioned by name(which is why it is now canonized)but little to no information was given about their qualities.

I don't know anything about them, as I haven't read the non-published stuff, but the name of the 3rd species is canon. I'll spoiler the Wob, anyways.

Yea, good thoughts man. I had figured that slaughter might have been put forth as a solution to the now mindless parsh, but then eventually put aside in favor of the enslavement option. But yea, what if slaughter was the first decision? I think it was Windrunners and Stonewards at Feverstone Keep, which are 2 orders I think would have large problems with wholesale slaughter. And Edgedancers, as you mentioned..I would also think Truthwatchers and possibly WillShapers would have the most vociferous objections. The other Orders, on the other hand, I could see being able to justify slaughter in the name of the greater good. What if Feverstone was just the start of the Recreance, dominoe-style? So, Ba-Ado-Mishram is captured, the False Desolation ends and the KR are left with what to do with the mindless parsh and they land on slaughter. Some orders(and individuals within orders) revolt and refuse to comply, leading to Feverstone. The other Orders start to carry out the genocide plan, but cannot finish it and then continue the Recreance when the weight of what they've done comes down on them. The Skybreakers persist

Well, what if we presume that Melishi is bonded to the Sibling during this time. And it's during this time that the Sibling is starting to be affected by whatever it is that eventually causes it's slumber, which is presumably a malevolent event. I would think that whatever is affecting the Sibling would be affecting the one bonded to it. And a partially corrupted bondsmith could help explain why the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram didn't go exactly as planned..ie..lobotomized populace of parsh. Maybe if did go as planned they would've captured BAM and ended up with a parsh that weren't mindless thereby "necessitating" enslavement , but just defeated. Defeated and deprived of access to voidlight and forms of power. They wouldn't have to be enslaved...People can have wars without one ending up slaves to the other. Parsh and humans may not have lived in complete harmony but they could've existed together, I think. It could've been a completely different story, if not for the lobotomy.

Its one thing to understand objectively that enslavement may be the best out of a list of terrible options, after the parsh were (presumably) accidentally lobotomized. I think its a different kettle of fish to actually live with the results of taking the supposed 'best' option. You are a storming Knight Radiant. Hero. Held up as an Ideal to all of Roshar...But Roshar isn't even yours...Your people destroyed their own planet. So they came to this one and conquered it. You took a planet that wasn't yours and conquered the local populace. And if that wasn't already bad enough, you took their minds. You robbed the native populace of not only their home but their mind, their culture, their everything. And you're reminded of it, every day. As you walk around, held up as a hero. Might start to wear.

And it we could step outside Roshar for a second and ask ourselves, If Kaladin was sitting across from me, sharing a cup of violet, what do you think his honest answer would be to “ soooo, whadcha think about that whole salute thing after the ol’ Elhokar murder? “ Because I think it would be less a long discussion parsing the moral implications on whether or not Moash had earned the right, and more a string of stormin’ curses

His actions may not make him a super villain for all of the characters yet(although I’d say regicide is usually a good enough reason for most people), but he is certainly one in Kaladin eyes. The Moash apologists can talk about him “earning” that salute all they want, but it was the salute of a coward. A salute by a man who knew he didn’t deserve to make it, given to the man whom it would hurt the most. A salute abdicating anything left of the man who had earned his place in Bridge Four, and all that was left of his humanity.

I’m in Camp Bavadin the dragon myself, but a Dysian Aminan would be sweet. I’ve always assumed all the Shards were of the 3 sapient species on Yolen

I believe adonalasiumspren have been confirmed by Brandon. Don’t have time to find wob right now

Maybe The Thrill was something Made by a combination of Honor and Cultivation;s power(same idea as the theories about how The Sibling was created) and then was later corrupted(UmMade) by Odium? I have no real idea, but good catch on the redness of The Thrill compared to the black of the other UnMade's.

Now you're speaking my language. I've been of the opinion that there's no way Rayse is still holding Odium by book 10. And I've had Moash earmarked as a replacement. Your idea about seeing Kaladin die, would certainly push Moash to the end. I like it!

I think we actually agree on most..including what a kick chull scene it was. What I love about Oathbringer is all the ways it fleshed out that this will never be a 'just good guys vs just bad guys' .My point on why the salute was so devastating is that I understand why Moash would give it. I understand why he's given in to justifications he's made in his head. But no matter how much he's convinced himself, I think human nature says that there was at least a tiny piece of him that knew deep down that Kaladin would see that as spitting in the eye of everything Bridge Four stands for, even if Moash didn't truly believe that he was. And its that knowledge of what he was really doing to Kal, even if it was only a tiny piece of him that knew, that made the salute so cold-blooded. But, as I said, I. Loved. It.

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Past actions don't pay for the future. Just because you were good and did things that were right doesn't pay for all the bad since. All the cracks in Moash's soul which made him brethren to Kaladin, have now been filled in by Odium.

Also, let me be clear...Narratively, I LOVED the scene...It was fantastic and just gave even more depth to the Kaladin/Moash arc. It was devastatingly cold-blooded and I've read it like 12 times(or maybe 9;).The contrast of what Moash see's himself doing with the salute and what Kal see's from his side, is spectacular and I just really like thinking about that juxtaposition and what it foreshadows of Kal and Moash's continuing paths.

I agree that these are the things that Moash may be thinking. But all he's doing is rationalizing and justifying. He is the epitome of everything Odium is preaching..."It's not your fault". But just because he has rationalizations and justifications for his actions, doesn't make his actions any less heinous. He's had multiple opportunities to change his path, to divert his boulder just a bit, back to a one of Radiance. Instead he pushes it faster down the path to Odium. Moash has deluded himself and probably believes his salute was one of respect or one of repayment or something else that wasn't malicious. His delusion doesn't change what that salute was...A virtual ShardSlap to the face.

There's a lot of yada-yada in that "basically". He's basically like Kaladin, except that every chance he had to make a horrible decision, he took it. He's basically like Kaladin except he kills in cold blood. He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.

And I have zero clue about the Nightwatcher..I don't even know what she's the spren of. The other 2 are sprens of something definite(if we are assuming that the Sibling is the spren of Uritharu). Greatsprens for the Highstorm, Uritharu, and...??? I feel like it can't be a general 'spren of nature' type situation...I think she has to be the spren of some definitive thing. Until we know that, I find it hard to fathom more than just an outright guess. Maybe when we get more of an idea what exactly she is the spren of, we'll be able to identify with some characters that will fit. Although, I will say that I think whomever ends up bonding the Nightwatcher, they will be more of a wildcard, character wise, whether they are known to us now or not. Nightwatcher just seems less straightforward with more of an edge than Stormfather, due to the nature of the Shards they were born of, and that leads me to think that whomever bonds her is going to be more ambiguous, morality/character wise. She be a crafty spren, that Nightwatcher

If the Sibling is the greatspren of Uritharu, I think the most obvious candidate has to be Navani. I mean, its a living city powered by a giant fabrial..Sounds like Navani-Alley, to me. If its not going to be Navani, I almost feel it has to be a currently unknown character, as I can't think of any other known characters who would make more sense than her. I think it would be really strange to see one of the other characters ascend to the Bondsmith of the giant fabrial city...Wouldn't Navani just spend the whole book brooding? Like, 'seriously Sibling, you didn't pick me? Fabrial Queen?...Seriously? Boo on you.'