Mulk

Odium has the ability to grant surge-like powers. You see the Fused using them, flying, sliding around and more, and they aren't bonded the way the Knights Radiant are. IT's fairly clear (to me anyway) that they are doing what on the forums we call voidbinding, drawing their power off of Odium, and not off of Stormlight/Honor/Cultivation. I think the fact they use the word surgebinding to describe what happened in the past reflects that they don't use/know the word voidbinding. The surges, spren, the Parshendia/Listeners/Dawnsingers and more all predate the arrival of the three Shards in Roshar. It makes a certain sense that all sides are just manipulating what is already present. The only thing different, really, is who they draw that power off of and how they gain access to it. So in a certain sense, if by surgebinding you mean the sort of magic apparently inherent to Roshar, and in this case drawn from Odium, then yes, they used surgebinding. IF by surgebinding, you mean what the Knights Radiant do, no, they did not use that.

There pretty much has to be a genetic component to it given 3-4 boys get it for every 1 girl. My oldest is, and when he was diagnosed the doc was quick to assure us that one child on his own doesn't make a pattern. If we'd had more than one, it'd be a different story. My other two are not. You can probably guess that Renarin is pretty important to me as well. My wife too. I loved his little moments in the sun in this book and I admit to freaking a bit when I thought Jasnah might kill him.

Hopefully, they've learned from the secret keeping though I suspect they will try to keep it off the table.

Well...suppose his boon from the Nightwatcher (or perhaps Cultivation - maybe she took his memory of that meeting like she did with Dalinar) is another example of Cultivation getting one up on Odium. If the Diagram really is of Cultivation, it may be that she foresaw Taravangian's request, foresaw what would come of it and she...performed a little bit of surgery on him (or maybe the bits of Diagram referring to Renarin came from her directly and so are hidden) so that Odium is set up for a fall, believing T is an ally when in reality something hidden/further down the line will cause him to flip back. I don't like Taravangian one bit. But I think he does honestly regret having to act this way, so there may be a way out for him in the end, though honestly I'd hope he doesn't survive it. It's interesting to me that Renarin is...off the table. I guess the one thing Odium could not or did not foresee is one of his creatures/tools breaking from the fold enough to give his enemies a weapon against him. Renarin can make use of Odium's essence in a sense to see the future. In a sense, it's like Odium and Renarin can both burn atium, but only Renarin knows they both can do it. He knows he can be wrong in ways Odium doesn't, yet, and that may have a long chain of rippling effects reaching outward - it gives the KR a man on the inside, as it were. I think it's a point in both Jasnah's and Renarin's favor - Jasnah's that she had compassion on her cousin who is bound to a corrupted spren, Renarin that he was such a young man as to engender said response - he's possibly the most genuine being we've seen in the series to date. It's interesting that this kid who is likely on the spectrum is set up to be such a game-changer. I'd love to see some sort of account of Glys and Sja-anat meeting, how that went, and if Glys really gave his consent, why he did so.

no you're not. I agree We know Brandon is eventually going to knit it all together, and I look forward to it. I just hope I (and he!) live long enough to see the culmination of it all.

Re: the whole Vivenna thing - knowing Azure is Vivenna and an offworld means absolutely zilch for understanding the plot. Some folks are way too focused on the fact that she's an offworlder. So is Mraize. So is Iyatil. So is Zahel. So were the other 17th Sharders in the Purelake. You don't have to know anything about their off-world history to understand for the most part what is going on and enjoy it. Or, if you don't understand, you roll that into the rest of what you don't understand and keep reading until Brandon keys you in on what you need to know to make the pieces fit. Knowing they are is an easter egg that gives you some depth to analyze from. Seriously - it's not that hard to find in world explanations for what you see from them. And even if you do suspect the truth, you don't need to know where she is from and all that to know what she's doing now, understand what is going on. Like, I know what it looks like from that POV because until September, I was there. I hadn't read Arcanum Unbounded or Warbreaker. I didn't take Zahel/Vasher and Nightblood to be out of place. I didn't take Wit/Hoid to be out of place, though I figured he at least knew a lot more than we could see onscreen. Vivenna/Azure is just more of the same, though more obviously offworld, obviously with some experiences that until now we could only attribute to Jasnah in this series. But the fact that Jasnah is the only one on-screen (depending on whether you recognize Hoid/Wit encountering Rock or not) to have been bodily to Shadesmar and back prior to part 3 does not automatically mean that no one else ever has or could. This is an instance where I really think the readers should trust the author a bit more and...you know, actually talk to people who haven't read the other stuff before you just say stuff like this sticks out too much there's no way people can understand it without reading other works. They won't understand it in all of its depth, but you make a false reasoning from the fact that they won't know it all to say they can't understand or enjoy the book right now without that deeper knowledge. reference this: I typed this yesterday morning - we have never in the books seen the term Voidbinding. We call it that here, but people on that world DON'T HAVE THAT TERM. So Jasnah isn't making a mistake. She's using the word they have available for the magic that is used. People here get confused because someone coined a term to differentiate it.

If you're going to doubt the name given him by the other Shards, then you have to doubt the names of all of the Shards. Honor calls him Odium in the vision where he tells Dalinar he is dead, so we have the word of a fellow Shardholder on what he is. For me, that's enough. Calling himself passion is no more than a word game, a deflection from his true nature, so that people will not see that what he is does is hate, and destroys what he hates. Because the Shard is held by a loathsome and crafty individual (Hoid'd description), he interprets the Shard's intent in a dangerous way. He lies, misdirects, shows up as a bountiful being offering freedom and justice and people buy it. He's an interesting analog to Satan, in fact, who can appear as an angel of light if he wishes; you have to know him by his deeds, understand the truth of his fancy words to avoid being trapped by it, because he can make what is wrong look really good or feel good, or at least look unstoppable, thereby engendering despair leading to betrayal. I think you have to look to Venli's meeting with Dalinar to understand what Odium actually has planned. He's not going to spare any unless he must. He wants to kill Cultivation, destroy anything left of those who opposed them and then get the hell out of dodge and go looking for another mark. He's the closest thing to real evil we've seen. It's not that hatred is in and of itself wrong; it's that hatred in the absence of any context, hate for the sake of hate, is always wrong, always evil. This is who Odium is. Raw, unabated hatred, cloaked in a fair semblance so he can get close, stick the knife in and TWIST.

been thinking on this a whlie. I think it might be something along the lines of I will protect even against those I love. Either that or I cannot protect everyone, no matter how I try.

That's a funny question and an important one I think Given what we know about the Cosmere, we already know the two are compatible, they were once part of a unified whole. It's just...their current interpretations and goals make them appear to be incompatible. Myself and one other person almost on top of each other suggested the possibility that by the end of it all we'll see a tri-shard of Honor, Cultivation and Odium. I don't know what you'd call that resulting being, and honestly I think the likelihood of it is low. But we know Dalinar was touched by Odium his whole life, yet was connected enough to Honor to at least partially ascend, and we know Cultivation has had her hand on him as well, so it would seem that Dalinar has enough connections to be able to hold all three.

Jasnah reads to me like someone who not interested in marriage, nor is she interested in men. That's not to say specifically she's a lesbian. She just reminds me of someone I know for whom that sort of relationship is just...distasteful. She prizes the freedom she has as someone without a spouse and likes not being beholden to anyone. She also, just from a general sort of disposition standpoint, would honestly make a very bad person to spend an intimate life with - the constant disapproval and measuring. She's grown enough that she know she does this and sometimes tries to rein it in...but not enough to bet that a marriage with her would last.

I've been pondering this. I think Odium was actually the mover behind the whole Sons of Honor thing. The ones we know of have all turned out to be major bad guys, at least with respect to the story being told. They probably all knew Honor was dead, they just held back that knowledge. As for foreshadowing...I don't think there was much, beyond hints and outright hornblowing that Amaram isn't what he seems - if you take that and put it along side the fact that Gavilar and the rest of the group seemed to want to kick off another Desolation...well, he's no goody goody. We never got a (substantive) POV from him. But you know what? I don't really care. In any war, some people turn out to be traitors and at least a few of them are mostly going to be unpredictable - like there won't be anything in their experience that you could say was predictive. So, it should be shocking when some things like this turn out differently than you expect, that some turn evil without warning or even that some evil turn good. Really like your take on this - it explains why there is a patternhead for Hoid to pick up, why there is this tiny glowing ball of light hanging around. They have nowhere else to go. As to what Venli embodies...I think the forum consensus was that Eshonai was on path to be a Willshaper. I don't know exactly what that means so I can't speak to if that's what this little ball is, but...I look at Venli and I see someone who made a very hard choice, in part because she felt hopeless and believed this was the only way forward. But I also see in her the regret that this must be so, the longing that it need not happen this way, and a sense of self strong enough that she couldn't bend enough to allow herself to become Fused. Her redemption arc was unexpected, but appreciated. It's not complete, mind you - but there is hope that it might be, one day. I'm pretty sure that's what he says to Dalinar. I'm at work and can't check the reference but I reread that section last night, pretty sure that's what he says.

I've seen the following thought line several times - how did humans use surgebinding to destroy the world they were on before when they weren't following Honor and Cultivation? I know they used the word surgebinding in the book, but I think we need to stop confusing that for what they used. Surgebinding is the term they know. We've not seen them use the term voidbinding. They look at Voidbringers/Fused and see that they use the same sorts of powers, so they use the same word for it. From an in-book and in-character perspective this is fine. From outside the book, what the humans used to destroy their world is what we would call voidbinding as it is drawn from Odium's power. Again, they don't use the term voidbinding, but we have to differentiate to avoid this sort of thing. Or, put another way, you don't need to be confused about how they destroyed a planet with surgebinding when they were following Odium instead of Honor/Cultivation. Odium, in the Roshar system anyway, seems to be able to grant the same sorts of powers the other two do, probably (at least this is my theory) because this planet and system, with their spren, predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. Like, the rules for how everything works in the system are already set, by a being/force greater than any of the three Shards there. If Odium really was the humans' God when they came to Roshar as Syl says in the book, the humans were using those voidbinding powers that the KR recognize as being like their own and that is how they destroyed everything.

lol. ninja'ed by Leyrann. I took about 15 minutes to type out my reply to you while at work and it got in when I didn't notice. I have to head out myself and concentrate a bit more on work.

It's possible. I fully grant (and expect) that Dalinar doesn't have access to all of Honor, that any reassembly which can be done of the Shard is incomplete at best. Nonetheless, this is who Odium recognized him as. Odium was shocked beyond belief. I find that a powerful argument that he is, for all intents and purposes, Honor and stands in the place of Tanavast, even if only imperfectly or partially. He had the ability to manifest the perpendicularity, to refresh the Stormlight reserves...and while he may have a very small piece of Cultivation (and of Odium) roaming around inside, the bulk of who He is is Honor. At least, right now, it is. Wild one off - what if Dalinar eventually becomes our first three-way Shard? Honor, Cultivation & Odium? I hasten to add I seriously doubt this probability as I doubt he'll be able to do more than drive Odium off, at least in the first five. It is an intriguing possibility though. I wonder how those three would interact together; how they would inform and change each others, giving a context previously lacking.

He may refer to himself that way, but the Shard he took up is Honor. He can't change its Intent. He's merely new enough to it that it hasn't overtaken his personality. Now, maybe Dalinar is quite a bit stronger willed than the other Shard holders and will hold out longer. That's entirely possible. But he still can't change the Shard's Intent, only affect the way it is interpreted. So, at least for the time being we have an Honor who interprets honor to be all things good and right and upstanding, and not Honor for honor's sake bereft of all context (say, Szeth pre-death/heal), which seems to be what all of the Shards become eventually, their overriding Intent without context or meaning. If Sazed is immune (not that I think he is, but he seems...fairly Sazed-y in the epigraphs) it's because his Intents are so opposed that they cannot override who he is without first overriding each other. On an unrelated note, who really needs to bump into Mr. T now is Szeth. What would also be interesting is if Dalinar is enough Honor to have sensed what happened to Jezrien, or if the connection to Honor that the Heralds had is broken completely. I doubt it is, but even if Dalinar felt it he might not know what it means.

@winter devotion, assuming I understand the question properly, he's Honor now. He was able to force Honor's perpendicularity to manifest at a certain place, able to recharge gems with Stormlight though it is difficult for him...for all intents and purposes he is now Honor. Or enough of a splinter of Honor to freak out Odium and be able to do some things Tanavast could do while he held the Shard I suppose. I'd guess that those bits of Honor that suffuse the Stormfather will remain so, and so forth.

Isn't that how Moash and Graves hid when they fled the Shattered Plains? Or am I not remembering it right?

Oathbringer...for the second time.

In no particular order: I love Lift Adolin's tailor...that had me laughing so hard I had a violent coughing fit Storming Elhokar Maya Dalinar's past...holy crap. I'd guessed some of it but still. I didn't trust the Diagram from the beginning, even less now Didn't see Sja-anat coming Dalinar really is Odium's champ...until he suddenly isnt! Odium is freaked out by Cultivation or so it seems Renarin man...really do love that kid. Cultivation is the boss, way more so than I thought Moash needs to die and Kaladin needs to be the one who does it. Bridge 4. They just make me happy. And, specifically, Rock. Dude is a freaking beast. Strong in all the ways that matter most, strong enough to drop his personal taboo to save a life and end a monstrosity. and a lot more. Those are just the ones that are still weighting (that's on purpose, it's a lot more than just weighing) on me at this current moment. My bullet point list would be around 100 long if I listed ALL of it Dalinar Ascending just blew me away - at least, Odium seemed to recognize him as such and that's sufficient for me at this point. I thought someone would reassemble/become Honor but not this soon. The whole combat sequence at the end was pretty gripping. Jezrien dying in totality was kinda horrifying. Odium's hunting the Heralds now; I'd guess trying to end the Oathpact in truth before Dalinar is in full possession of his new strength. SOMEONE SAVE TALN. I need to stew on the epigraphs some more. Took me around 7 hours. I've reread some sections already. I'll probably reread the whole thing 4-5 times before the year is out. It is that good. Are there some things that could have done with more screen time or detail? Probably, yeah. Then we'd have an 1800 page book and that's a little much even for me...I'm content. No, I'm happy.

Yeah, I immediately took that scene to mean Dalinar has Ascended because Odium recognized him as Honor. "We killed you" or something like that was his response. Whether he holds ALL of Honor's power that Tanavast held...I kinda doubt that; Stormfather probably retains those pieces of Honor that he is merged with, as an example. But he has enough to cause Odium some real trouble.

Especially given that from Warbreaker we understand that Vasher/Zahel killed her himself.

It's probably more accurate to call what humans did to their original planet Voidbinding instead of Surgebinding, as they followed Odium and drew on his powers, but the people of Roshar apparently don't have that word in their vocabulary so they call it what it looks like and it looks an awful lot like Surgebinding. Spren imitating the bond is the last point on your list. All of the rest of it was in place prior to the spren figuring out how to replicate what Honor had done.

honestly, what I want is a mini-series on the Silmarillion. The Fall of Fingolfin, Beren and Luthien, The Fall of Gondolin are all stories that deserve a visual, at least imo they do. I'm withholding judgment on this till we have more details. That's not enough to go on with right now. If they try to make it GoT: the LOTR edition I'm out.

take my upvotes!

you are correct. I told myself to leave it alone and then I didn't leave it alone. sigh.