IcaroRibeiro

14 minutes ago, ChiriChiri said:

I had Jasnah down as INTJ based on the first couple of books, but I’ll take E given what goes down at the end of Oathbringer. Can see your point for Dalinar too, but he really has a ENTJ vibe for me mainly based on ENTJs I’ve known.

Same here. But not really by the end of the book rather throughout it. Her political meetings and constant clashes with Kaladin showed that. Jasnah might be a great scholar, but is a intrinsically political figure. She's comfortable taking control and enjoys to be in charge. INTJ can be good leaders, but their introvert nature make them more lone wolfs who took leadership as a burden even if they are really good at it

2 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

I’m biased as an INTJ Elsecaller, but I think Elsecaller is actually pretty fitting for the INTJ personality. INTJs tend to be ambitious, curious, logical, and they seek to better themselves and their knowledge of the world. I am definitely very focused on self-improvement and reaching my potential.
 

I agree that INFJ is more difficult to classify though. 

INTJ are Te users so they can fit into Elsecallers, though it's only their auxiliar function which tends to be the most "conscious" function since you use it more as a tool than a natural reasoning process. INFJ in other hands are Fe and Ti users (auxiliary and tertiary functions) and quite don't fit as Elsecallers, like... not at all 

I'm hoping to see a Radiant INFJ cause they tend to be quite complex characters. I'm sure Taravangian is a INFJ though he's not a Radiant, also believe Gavilar was INFJ too, though it's more like a wishful think

3 minutes ago, ChiriChiri said:

NICE. This is the stuff I was looking for!

I have always had Dalinar down as ENTJ, so was letting that colour my Bondsmith interpretation.

I saw Dalinar more as an ESTJ than ENTJ

Jasnah should be ENTJ

3 hours ago, ChiriChiri said:

I wonder how these map onto Myers Briggs personality types? I bet it's pretty close. In fact, has anyone done any speculation on how the orders line up with these before?

From what I understood, I'll sorting them according to their primary and auxiliary functions:

Windrunners: Fe users (ESFJ, ENFJ)

Skybreakers: Si users (ISTJ, ISFJ), though I think maybe some auxiliary Si (ESTJ to be more exact) can also be sorted here

Dustbringers: Blurry, maybe auxiliary Fi (ESFP, ENFP) users since this a order focused on self-discipline and self-control and those two personality types has a severe problem with self-indulgence 

Edgedancers: Fi users (INFP, ISFP)

Lightweavers: Ne users (ENFP, ENTP), though I think maybe some auxiliary Ne (INFP to be more exact) can also be sorted here

Elsecallers: Te users (ENTJ, ESTJ) 

Truthwatchers: Ti users (INTP, ISTP)

Willshapers: Both Ne (ENFP, ENTP) and Se users (ESFP, ESTP), since both functions strongly seek freedom. The differences lies more if they pursue a more material (Eshonai, warrior) or subjective (Venli, scholar) ideal of freedom 

Stonewards: Feeling Se users (ESFP, ISFP). I'm using this because they look as guys who need to have both strong Fi and Se to be Stonewards

Bondsmiths: Blurry. Maybe Te or Fe users, both functions are strongly related to seek the best decisions for the group, either in a more logical or sentimental approach

I didn't saw any order strongly associated with Ni. At first I thought Truthwatchers might be Ni users, but no... not really. Truthwatchers are concerned with fundamental truths, they want a deep understanding of structure and facts. A Ti user is naturally inclined to organizing and categorizing things and to make this they can use both sensing and intuition as information can be both gathered objectively and subjectively 

Ni users are much more complicated and aren't that concerned with fundamental truths, indeed Ni isn't concerned with anything other than gather information and process it in a subconscious level. It's a bit underwhelming that none Radiants are strongly related with Ni though since Ni produces arguably some of the most interesting personalities (INTJ and INFJ)

Already posted mate

Btw Truthwatcher 

After reading Sanderson masterpost, seems like Elsecallers oaths are about progression. They improve themselves and discover the best version of themselves. It was also said they were one of the most diverse orders, with individuals of different backgrounds

Notice how Dustbringers oaths are also about self-mastery, self-control, precision and responsibility which are forms of progression. In strict sense, ALL Radians are looking to progress in their own path, so what make Elsecallers different? A Sanderson pointed, their focus are on INDIVIDUALS just as much as Lightweavers

So maybe, just like Lightweaevers, Elsecallers don't have a fixed set of morals follow, their oaths are instead about their personal actions and decisions. In essence the path of each Elsecaller is find its on way to progress, not rely in a shared code of values to make that progress

So when Jasnah decide to not be heartless and not take Renarin's life she was making a progression, if we could translate this into a oath it would be something like: "I won't let my fears and concerns overlaps my humanity". Which Avery, even before understand why, agree to be the right thing to do.

I took the test again, this time I asked a friend for help. English is not my native language and I didn't understand some expressions (letter of law, heart on sleeve, need-to-know). My friend also advice to increase my scores of tension and caution (I don't feel it myself, but, well I took it with a grain of salt) which I feel that increased my Elsecaller score, and after following her orders increase a bit my obedience score cause why not. My results changed a bit but not really:

While the number of Windrunners, Edgedancers and Skybreakers seems aligned with what I saw in other threads It's amusing to see how many people here used to be mistyped into Elsecallers or Lightweavers, now we are Truthwatchers instead lol

But the amount of Willshaper are so far the most surprising for me.

Just now, KandraAllomancer said:

Same situation Truthwatcher, followed closely be Elsecaller:

 

I'm happy cause I've always really liked Renarin and kinda understood his reasoning even if we don't know much about him in reality. The lack of knowledge about his order was underwhelming though I've already predicted they must be a scholarly order I've never thought they were the most scholarly order  

I knew it after I read the description lol 

Damnation. I didn't see this coming. I always thought I might be an Elsecaller but now I'm leaning towards Truthwatchers

Edit: I got Truthwatcher 65%, Skybreaker 62% and Elsecaller 60% 

Brandon updated his website

Draft 4 100% finished now

Elsecallers and Lightweavers are the most resourceful 

Truthwatchers and Edgedancers can also be extremely important for commoners as they act as healeres 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Seeing the future is of the unmade.  She would not have been precognitive.

Also keep in mind divine attributes are largely cultural.  They have no inherent meaning or applicability.

Well, so far divine attributes matches 100% with the Radiants personal values and moral path, so I'm inclined to believe they are real

We know very little about the Heralds before the Proving Day. As far as concerned, Spren look for humans whose personal values, moral code and personality matches the most with the Heralds. According to the legends, the first and biggest concern of Heralds was protection of humanity, they would defend but also teach mankind. I'm not even a it inclined to believe they were all soldiers. 

With that in mind, who exactly were these men and women before they become cognitive shadows?

1) Jezrien

Herald of Kings, he was probably born in Ashyn. According to the madman's words "and Jezrien . . . he will teach you leadership". It makes me wonders if Jezrien wasn't in fact a King from start. I actually believe he was a commoner, if not, he was at best a highborn, but not a king. Jezrien was a soldier, a general, he was the one who take the leader after the long travel to Roshar. If he become a King, it was after human society .

2) Nale

Herald of Justice, in Ashyn Nale was a constable. In Roshar, he worked as a Magister. I'm supposing based on their Azish title "Nakke, the judge". It matches with his order shared values, put the laws above everything else, and also with his personality.

3) Chanarach

Very few is know about her, probably the Herald we know the least. At first I used to think she was an assassin as her order is know by the erratic and destructive members. The words Stormfather use to describe Taln were he was the only who wasn't king, scholar or general. It makes me think Chanarach was in a power and prestigious position. Her divine attributes being Bravery and Obedience makes me think she became a General after her life as an Assassin in Ashyn. 

4) Vedel

Pretty easy one. According to Taln words "Vedel can train your surgeons", her Radian Order members are infused with healing surgebinding and her divine attributes are love and heal, giving very little space to disprove: She was a Scholar and Physician. 
 
5) Pailiah

Matron of Truthwacthers, there is very few we know about her but it's clar she was a Scholar though it's not clear what was her foremost subject of study. Palanaeum was named after her, implying she was probably the most prominent learned Herald. But I'm going further and believing Pailiah was an actual Oracle, whether hes clairvoyant powers were true or false is questionable, but the fact Truthwatchers were considered to be esoteric it just makes my theory stronger

6) Shalash

Herald of beauty and Lady of Dreams, not only a princess Ash was an artist. I'm basing this hypothesis mostly on one thing: Her symbolic destruction of her own artistic depictions. I actually don't quite believe she was trying to hide herself, each civilization are used to portray Heralds of members of their own civilization and how could they ever imagine how Ash would look alike. Ash was destroying her Art because she was ashamed, arts were the most important things on her life she just feels she's no longer deserving to have any piece of art in her name. 

7) Battar 

Like most of her radiants, the Herald of Elsecallers was an scholar. I won't say a word if she is Dova or not, so I'm basing my thoughts of what she was really on her orders Spren. It's a very well know fact Elsecallers were the true masters of cognitive realm, forming the highest liason with the greatest spren in Shadesmar. That's, combined with her divine atributes of caring and wisdom, make me feel she was a diplomat. Battar was one of the fewest Heralds who actually tried to make peace with Singers, rather than conquered them and was chosen a Herald because Honor wanted individuals who didn't seek for Singers destruction, but for humanity protection. 

8) Kalak

I believe he's the second youngest Herald. We had a POV of him, but after millennia or war and torture we only knew he was a depressive and neurotic individual. As Taln says "Kalak will teach you to cast bronze, if you have forgotten this" makes me feel Kalak was a Contractor, a Master Builder and an Engineer.

9) Taln

The only commoner among the Heralds, the Herald of War was just a mid-tier soldier and a swordmaster with a steel willpower. According to himself "I will train your soldiers". He was chosen because of his dependable personality and teaching skills. 

10) Ishar

Blinder of Gods, Ishar was a Sage and a Priest of Honor even before Ashyn's destruction, when humanity still worshipped Odium. Ishar was the one who looked for Honor and ask for Mercy for his own kind, which Honor promptly granted after Ashyn's exodus. That's long-term relationship between Isha and Honor was what make him the highest Herald and the one who Holds the biggest powers. In Roshar humanity looked for him when they needed guide and to listen Honor's worlds. 

TL;DR

Jezrien - A Soldier who became a King after the destruction of Ashyn
Nale - A constable who became a Magister
Chanarach - An Assassin who turned to be a General
Vedel - A Surgeon Scholar
Pailiah - An Oracle Scholar
Shalash - An Artist Princess
Battar - A Diplomat Scholar
Kalak - A Build Master 
Talenel - A Swordmaster and Combat Teatcher
Ishar - A Honor's Sage

16 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Taln was a double-agent for Odium from the start, then turned on Odium in the last 4,500 years because he loves Ash so much. 

 

It would be a lame and cheap reason, I'm not inclined to just accept a plot twist if the character development behind it is that shallow 

The theory is fine though. Just not this particular reason 

I'm growing anxious for this book. Will the chapters be published online starting in August? 

I actually think she's not her biological daughter at all. Physically they doesn't look much alike 

10 was too much, would make the radiants progression slower 

Finally learn how Shardplates are created

And fabrials in geral btw. Navani we're counting on you!

On 3/18/2020 at 3:42 PM, Ashspren said:

Nice, that rhymes. (Just a gut reaction, sorry. )

Actually, there are two more. Yes, if he wants Odium's power, he would have to cut a deal with Rayse. That being said, he also needs the power of Cultivation. I think it's more likely that the Book 4 epilogue will show Hoid getting a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher.

Hoid really despises Rayse, and I truly believe that it would take a life-threatening event to force him into a deal. However, with the presence of Nightblood on Roshar... well, that leaves room for some very interesting occurrences. If Odium gets his hands on Nightblood, then perhaps a deal isn't too far off. 

In my opinion, your idea of Hoid on Braize talking to Rayse sounds like a perfect, suspenseful epilogue for Book 5, closing out the first arc. I love the idea of it!

I agree, what an epic epilogue it would be

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And here the trouble begins. I cannot make a combination of Navani & Kaladin & Venli make sense.

One of the few hard data points we have is that Venli starts out in Kholinar (even if that scene we got were technically a flashback into the time beetwen Oathbringer and Rhythm of War). One of the major plot points has to be Venli coming to terms with being a Singer, the last of her tribe (to her knowledge), a Regal and a Radiant. She is not on Odium's side, but neither is she on the human side. That conflict more or less has to be fully on screen.
Now, how and why would she get away from Kholinar? Teleport into unchartered territory? Unlikely. But then why would the KRs send a team with Kaladin and Navani into Kholnar? They suffered a major defeat there, losing their king. The city is full of screamer spren and Fused. Windrunners cannot use their Surges there. And risking Navani on a clandestine mission is madness. You'd never get Dalinar to agree to that.
If we define group#1 as the Kaladin/Navani group, Venli won't be in it.

Again I must disagree. It makes no sense for it to contain Navani then. And we must ask ourselves why the Horneater Peaks matter. Frankly, if Navani is to leave HQ, you will have to give a good reason. Acting as a field engineer in a guerilla in Alethkar isn't a good reason.
In fact, if Rhythm of War were to have a lot of fighting in eastern Roshar, then why the time jump? It could have started a few weeks after Oathbringer. Hence if you want a group with Kaladin and Navani, it will have to be on an expedition so important or exploratory that sending Navani on it is justified.

That makes sense.

That also makes sense. But the proposals for group #2 and #3 are compatible with the data, not strongly suggested by it.

It leaves out Venli. I would propose that there is a group making diplomacy but it will be between Venli's group and Jasnah & Dalinar on the other side.

Venli is probably in Group 1 because her flashbacks starts at Part 3, and Sanderson won't remove a character of the narrative while her flashbacks are happening. This strongly suggests Venli is in Group 1

I think Group 3 will have fewer POV than Groups 1 and 2, specially because they have POV in parts 3 and 5 only, and generally Part 5 is about the climax of the book and generally have less chapters. The main character of the book is for sure in Group 1. Navani can indeed be in Group 3 along with Dalinar, however this makes me confused, I'll explain why

Among the main characters choices for this book I bet Szeth will be protagonista in SA5, and both Jasnah, Lift and Renarin will be saved for the arc 2 of the series, so it leave us only three characters: Venli, Navani and Adolin. Sanderson however barely spoke about Adolin during his process, it will be really surprising if Adolin is the main character in the group 1. Is it possible? Yes, but I doubt it. So it's Navani or Venli or even a completely different character (even less likely than Adolin)

We therefore have 4 possibilities:

a) Venli is the main AND the flashback character and is at group 1, and the rumours about her not being the main character is pure hearsay. Navani is at group 3 

b ) Venli is the flashback character, but is at the group 3 and won't have many POV in the present  (makes little sense, since it's the most singer-focused book to date,and she will out of the book while 30% of her back story is covered). Navani is at group 1 and is the main character

c) Navani and Venli are both in group 1, and are the main and the flashback characters and both have many POVs and plot significance  

d) Rumours about Venli been the flashback but not main character are true, but she's still in group 1. Adolin or other character (Rlain?) is at group 1 and is the main character

My thoughts are either a) or c) are the most likely ones. I can't see Venli in group 3, like... not at all. If Navani is at group 1 she's the main character, if not I don't see who can be the main character other than Venli 

Just now, ChickenLiberty said:

Group 1 has 5 characters, and Group 2 has 2, but can I take this to mean that you are of the opinion that Renarin was the character that switched from Group 2 to 1 between the 3rd and 5th Reddit updates?

I actually think Adolin was the one who was moved. Renarin and Shallan really makes sense as pair for chasing ancient Sprend while Adolin... well not so much

My guesses (or rather my wishes tbh)

Group 1: Navani, Venli and Kaladin (main POV), Rlain (minor POV) 
Group 2: Shallan, Adolin, Renarin
Group 3: Dalinar, Jasnah

Interlude Character: Moash

Group 1 will focus in the war in eastern Roshar specially but not only Alethkar, with Kaladin and Navani together at start and Venli and Rlain joining the group further

Group 2 will have Shallan, Adolin and Renarin will look for the Unmade whatever it takes place, Shallan will further act as a double agent. They are bringing Renarin because of his Spren that is related with Sja-nat. That's why their arc is narrowed focused, they won't even appear in the book climax for what it seems. I bet their arc in a cliffhanger after part 4 and only be back in SA5

Group 3 will have Dalinar and Jasnah, take place mainly in Urithiru (and cities connected by Oathgates) and it's probably going to be about politics and getting some Oathgates back, with the focus on western Roshar such as Rira, Iri and Babatharnam. Szeth will advace for not look for Shinovar yet

Moash is the antagonist POV we have in each book. He's narrative is very important to see Odium's side of the Book and will complement Group 1 arc

Is she Shallan?