Alderant

So it is a "Dune series" reference then? I haven't read it.

That's an understatement... We're potentially getting into some very dark and very scary stuff, haha. I've really enjoyed the Shallan chapters, but hers feel like the calm before the storm to me. Like, everything is light and happy now, but there is something very, very bad for her on the horizon.

Reactions to the conversation first: I'm wondering the same thing. Mraize did say that they took care of their own to Shallan, and the Ghostbloods have been at odds with at least one known member of the Kholin family (possibly two, if Gavilar was a member of the Sons of Honor like Amaram and the Ghostbloods were at odds with them back then). Sadeas did mention Ialai having hidden assassins in WoR, a propensity that the Ghostbloods have been shown to have. I think this was actually revealed in WoK, with both Szeth and Kaladin. Kaladin could hold his breath, and stormlight would leak out less quickly. I think Szeth mentioned the same thing during his rampages once. I believe it's a stormlight thing. I don't actually think he's any different in that regard. He just carries himself with more self-control now, but he is still a walking thunderstorm of contradiction, stubbornness and willpower, haha. I mean, he did bind the Stormfather...that takes some stubbornness and willpower. Also he's going completely against the Vorin church. Perhaps, though she could have just done that as a child to have prevented her mother from finding out, especially if her mother was antagonistic to the Radiants like most of Roshar. IMO, I think we should steer clear of Shallan having done something to her brothers without textual evidence. She's messed up enough as it is, and speculating only risks compounding her already complicated life. There's not really any textual evidence that Shallan used her abilities in a dangerous way prior to her mother's attempt to kill her. What the heck is Dune? Is that a Cosmere thing I've somehow missed? I know there's a book series called Dune... I don't know that Shallan has really had time to sit down and consider this. She's had a lot on her plate and if this thought had occurred yet I think we would have seen evidence of it in the text up 'til now... That doesn't make any sense. If anything, I would think feeling the desire to protect the parshmen would make Kaladin move further from being Odium's champion... Because to keep up those copy-cat murders, they have to take every murder they can. Yes, Adolin doesn't know about it yet, but all they need to do is tell him, that there was another murder. I think, that "Ialai needing to be convinced" was just a stalling tactic. To get another murder going. To show, that they have the means and the will to keep going with copying them... unless Adolin confesses. Ialai must be thinking, I can't prove that Adolin killed Torol, but I don't need any proof. Just pressure him into confessing. I can see it going both ways. We don't know much about the barmaid--but we've seen that the Ghostbloods/Sons of Honor/Diagramists all have people in all walks of life, so it's quite possible that the barmaid was a kill of opportunity--eliminate a member of a rival organization and put pressure on the killer of Sadeas at the same time. It's a little bit of a stretch with just the information given in the text, but I could see both ways. Excellent point. This is ultimately what drove the Parshendi into stormform, so it's highly likely that Dalinar's efforts will have some kind of ramifications against this. "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. << Kaladin's second ideal. I'll further that line of thought later on. Excellent analysis. I think you may be onto something. We've already had it confirmed that Odium is capable of playing the long game, and perhaps Honor didn't realize this (he can't see as far as Odium) until the very end, which is why he left his visions with the Stormfather to be passed on. My thoughts: Kaladin: I've seen this discussed earlier in the thread, but the thought I had was that Kaladin's third ideal will play into the parshman-not-being-enemies thing. His ideals are about protection and doing what's right. These parshmen aren't evil--they're trying to survive and escape a hellish life with the remnants of their families intact. Kaladin can't in good conscience just kill them outright, because he empathizes with them. I truly believe that, just based on the textual evidence here, he could end up as a bridge between Parshendi and humans, demanding the other Radiants and human nations not go to war just because they are a different race. We've already seen Kal grow to be not just a competent leader, but one that will face down any force necessary to protect those he loves. Dalinar: Not really much of note here. The knife scene was funny, and was a good example of just how callous to death Dalinar is. Shallan: Ookay, I'm officially adding alcoholism to her list of problems. I now have to worry not just about her running from her problems under the guise of one of her personas, but also that she will get stupidly drunk and do something stupid. Perhaps Adolin's revelation won't be the end, perhaps it'll just be Shallan getting drunk and doing something she'll regret. <sigh>. And snark aside, I don't see the addition of alcohol (especially in the quantities she's consuming it) being good for helping her come to grips with herself, but maybe that's just me... Mraize/Ialai: I don't actually see Mraize being a source of conflict for Shallan here. He did say something to the effect of "Let Shallan the Radiant be the dutiful light-eyes, but let Veil come to us as one of the Ghostbloods". We haven't seen Shallan's decision yet, but until she decides to be explicitly against the Ghostbloods, she's likely in the clear. Mraize did say that she was already considered a member. I still maintain that at this point in time, Ialai is the greatest suspect as the source of the copycat murders. I just think that the first one was psychological warfare, meant to shake the culprit. Additional murders, with the same MO (a knife through the eye), just point to serial murderer. Imagine the ramifications if, when it is revealed that Sadeas's death was at the hands of Adolin, all the other murders were pinned on him as well. As the murder count rises, so too will the unease among the Alethi, and if it gets too high the people may not want to wait to determine the truth of the accusations. If you doubt me that that's possible, consider mob behavior and the Salem Witch trials. Adolin/Shallan: Good progression here. I'm glad she is becoming more comfortable with him, though I still worry that the closer they get the worse his revelation will hurt...

I agree. I think a lot of people misunderstand me when I make this point. Im not judging Adolin. Personally, I totally feel Adolin was justified in killing Sadeas. But I do think Shallan is going to react badly to the whole situation. Do I think it’s going to be what pushes her overboard? No. I really hope she can come to terms with everything, but the path she’s headed down now is...not good. I actually agree with you. Absolutely were they necessary for her to mature and socialize. Remember all the flashbacks happen after her Mom’s death, so we actually see her building those walls back up. But like you pointed out, the walls came down quickly, albeit with some pushing from Pattern, who I think realized that without some intervention, Shallan would continue to run from her problems rather than address them. Because of that, the pain is fresh and raw again. I think that pretty much nails it. Have an upvote. I know my interpretation of Shallan is dark, but I think people are too quick to emphasize the perky, witty Shallan and say that she’s just going to “be okay” with stuff. She’s not. As someone who constantly put up walls as a teenager (even around my friends), I really worry about the road she’s headed down, and I think too many are too quick to dismiss what is going on in favor of the Adolin or Kaladin narrative. We’ve already seen some pretty dark stuff from Stormlight—and half of it has come from Shallan herself. What I do acknowledge about the character is she is incredibly strong. Don’t misunderstand me—I believe that she thinks she is weak, she sees herself as fragilly held together. Most of my analysis comes from what I believe is going on inside her head. Externally, knowing what she’s gone through, I admire her courage and refusal to back down. I don’t know that I would have kept going. That’s why Kaladin was so floored in the chasm when she smiled. He saw the inner Shallan in that brief moment and saw the strength that she herself doesn’t see. Sorry for any errors. Had to type this out on my phone.

Okay. Lots of stuff to digest in this thread. Argh. No. Just no. While you are correct that these are not separate entities meshed into one body (the most abstractly simplified description of DID I can think of), Shallan is NOT method acting here. This isn't just Shallan picking up and putting down a role for various circumstances. This is Shallan seriously cultivating separate identities to avoid her pain. Yes, Veil was originally created to deal with the Ghostbloods, but as the most recent chapters have shown, she is using Veil to avoid her problems. Brightness Radiant is a whole other can of worms--created not to simply wield her Patternblade, but created specifically as a Shallan-like identity without all of the trauma that doesn't have the pain, but it's not a separate person, like Veil. It's who Shallan might have been, which is why she has a hard time keeping it consistent, because it's too similar to her Shallan identity. We also can infer from the recent chapters that she has, in fact been practicing Veil during her stay in Urithiru, since she's getting much better at making sounds with her Lightweaving. Why is it the default assumption that the personas will go out of control? Is it even a safe assumption that she will make more and more personas that she uses regularly? If so, why? She doesn't create them just for fun but to solve really difficult problems - problems that Shallan cannot handle. Those don't turn up very often as she's very good at problem solving. It's not like she's inventing a new persona just to do the chores or something. To address what @mariapapadia said: I don't think the concern is that Shallan's personalities will develop their own cognitive identity. The concern is that, by pretending to be someone else, Shallan will begin to act and do things as those separate people. Veil becomes different from Shallan. A boy starts flirting with Veil and so Veil strings him along, separate from Shallan and Adolin. Brightness Radiant becomes Shallan's escape from Shallan's pain, and becomes the identity everyone sees interacting with Shallan the Radiant. And yes, @kari-no-sugata, she will continue to create personas as she feels she needs them, and every persona she creates makes the next one easier to justify, hence the fear that these personas will "spiral out of control". This and that are a little different, though you are correct to a degree. I would bet, however, that in college you didn't attach a name to your public speaking pretension. What Shallan is doing is more than a psychological trick for anxiety--Shallan has some very deep mental health issues going on, and rather than dealing with them she is running away from the problem. Also, in the very same scene she creates Radiant, she begins thinking of Radiant as a separate identity, and one she plans to use more often. This. Right here. Bolded for emphasis with relation to the importance of what Shallan is doing. Another example of Shallan's avoidance behavior. She's trying to cognitively separate Pattern the Spren, from Pattern the Blade, which is reflected in trying to separate Shallan from Radiant. This is dangerous stuff. I would disagree with the first statement here. Were it simply a response to the Blade, and that was the only use for Radiant, I would agree with you. But the main concern is this line here: This hints at some maladaption already in the works. Second, stress can be a trigger for depression, but not always, and though you certainly have more expertise with psychiatry and psychology than I do, I have depression and can tell you that it's not as much stress-related as it is a sort of cognitive-disconnect. It's not like anxiety, where you can avoid situations that "worsen" your depression and it gets better, it can come suddenly, abruptly, and for no reason whatsoever. Avoidance is not good for people with depression--it actually worsens the symptoms, because depression interferes with your ability to see the good in things. Avoidance is like admitting your depressed self is right. :/ I think you're the confused one: This very clearly indicates she is in "a place of panic and fear of coping with the truth." Whether or not her alternatives were terrible, it's very much from a place of fear.

Neat stuff! Before I get into my thoughts on Shallan, I just wanted to react to a few things. This is too convoluted to make sense. There is no mention in any of the material thus far that there was another sister. In all of the flashbacks, everything, if there had been a twin, one of the brothers or the father would have at least referenced the child. There would have been mentions of this other child--for an entire family to just suddenly pretend there was no twin just doesn't make much sense, and honestly this would undermine Shallan's entire arc of becoming self-understanding and aware. If the dead twin were the bad one, why would Shallan take on the bad persona that did all the evil? If the dead twin were the good one, why would Shallan have all the trauma of the bad one? It just doesn't work. Reading between the lines, I think it was quite clear in WoR that Shallan knew all this time (or at least for the last few years) that she had in fact killed her mother but wasn't really able to think about it (she would either avoid it or her mind would go blank). I think it's also clear that Shallan believed herself to be broken and that she didn't like herself. But, she had a bunch of comping mechanisms and she came across as being okay and maybe even normal. However, by speaking the Truth at the end of WoR the net effect of those coping mechanisms has been reduced - it's not that she has gotten "worse" but that her coping mechanisms have become weaker meaning that she is also being forced to confront her past, her pain and her fears more directly than before. In other words, some sunlight is showing in and clearing out some of the fog but the brightness is painful to her eyes. (I hope that makes some kind of sense) If she can properly deal with that then she'll be in a fundamentally better place. If not, then who knows what will happen. So I consider that exchange with Pattern to be her expressing a fear - that perhaps she is more messed up than she had previously thought. I would say this is a fear that she's not sure that she can trust her own memories, rather than her knowing she can't determine what she can trust and what she can't. She's effectively asking for reassurance that she's not THAT broken. I'm not sure if there's some particular reason why she fears this. I can't think of anything where she has in fact altered her memories rather than simply suppressed them. It's possible that her efforts with her personas are making her worry that maybe she can in fact genuinely trick herself into believing something that isn't true, or something along those lines. I'm working on a post that goes into more detail about who Shallan is and why she acts the way she does, and while I like your thoughts I believe her reaction here is for other reasons. Shallan does believe herself to be broken and she doesn't just dislike herself--she hates who she is. With Shallan, her personas and identities aren't her way of coping with the problem, their her way of wholesale avoiding them and are a desperate attempt to show others that she is not as broken as she truly is. She doesn't want others to see that side of her. That makes her unbearably vulnerable, and when someone who has as much trauma as she does feels as badly about herself as she does, they want to hide the pain. This isn't her dealing with it, this is her desperately avoiding it out of fear that either 1) she will be proven right about herself or 2) those she loves and cares about will abandon her. With speaking the Truth at the end of WoR, Shallan can no longer hide that part of herself from herself. This does not mean that she is seeing the light through the fog. I read this the opposite way, actually. These personas, these lies that she has built around herself are a fragile precipice over a chasm of despair and darkness. Until she can come to an understanding of who she is, these are what she clings to to avoid being the wretch that she fears when Pattern tells her "It's time" at the end of WoR. Her fear with her brothers and family is that she unknowingly lightweaved a fantasy where they loved her, and she's terrified that one of the solid points of her life (her brothers and their plan) is actually a precipice she created that will crumble under her as well, and she will be left with nothing. She has spent so long lying to herself that she is starting to lose her identity and ability to discern between what actually happened and what she fabricated. I think you hit it right on the head. She's trying to avoid being Shallan. Better, easier to become someone else than to deal with the pain. It's really important to note that Shallan still has not demonstrated much effort to confront and deal with the pain. She can no longer lie to herself and pretend it didn't happen, so now she has to find other ways around the pain, so she becomes someone else. She becomes Radiant to avoid dealing with the pain of her Patternblade. She becomes Veil because Veil "hadn't been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family." Veil didn't experience what Shallan did, so Veil doesn't have to hurt. This is not "coping" or "dealing" with pain--this is flat out avoidance behavior. Now for my thoughts: I've mentioned elsewhere that I see this revelation with Adolin being very bad for Shallan, and I've gotten some pretty scathing replies from the Adolin fanclub, so I'm going to try to summarize my thoughts on the matter and save all the gritty work for the aforementioned post I'm working on. Regarding Adolin--Shallan does not love Adolin yet. She likes him, she thinks he's very attractive, and she certainly believes she can come to love him. Adolin is cute, charming, and even if he's a bit of a soldier and her witticisms go over his head, and he maybe he's not got the mind of a scholar, but he is genuine and obvious and normal and she is happy with him, and a relationship means that she can have a normal life. He's not broken, he's not haunted by his past, he's not weak and terrified like she is. He's strong and solid. Her entire image of Adolin is based on this foppish, charismatic heir to the Kholin princedom that is an excellent soldier and son, who does the right thing, etc. When Shallan finds out that Adolin murdered Sadeas, that image of him is going to be stripped away. It's going to take on darker tones. She's going to worry that she missed signs, that who he was in her head was not who he really was. Shallan's previously drawn a parallel between her father and Adolin at the end of WoR--when Adolin says that he will protect Shallan and she will never be in danger again, and she reacts pretty harshly. That was what her father had done to her, locked her away like a pretty doll, all to "protect her." It might sound irrational, but I think she'll draw similar parallels when she finds out that Adolin murdered Sadeas in anger. People with trauma do not always react to things rationally, and Shallan has a heaping mountain of trauma that she is trying to avoid. And when that happens, Adolin will no longer be as easy to be around. Her inner pain will begin to corrupt her joy at his presence, until she no longer can stand to be around him. And I think fear is going to be a part of that. Also, Shallan is not working through her problems. She's not addressing what happened. She's avoiding them. She becomes Veil, or Radiant, or throws herself into her studies in order to avoid what is right before her. She clearly hates herself--she's built up lie after lie to hide what she has done and who she's become and wrapped it around herself like a protective skin, hiding the broken, fearful, raw Shallan underneath a Shallan that is witty and a little flippant. Even as early as WoK, we see her throwing herself wholeheartedly into her studies and art to avoid thinking about the things that cause her pain, and those are the ones that don't hurt as much as the ones she hides from. In the flashbacks of WoR, we learn that Shallan suffers from severe PTSD, so strong that her mind protectively blacks out every time that subject comes up. That is not a kind of pain that heals easily, but the power of her Truths is now in effect and so she can no longer simply pretend it is not there--that protective skin has been ripped off, leaving a raw pain that she shies away from. Yes, she is now more self-aware, but rather than embracing that self-awareness she is running from it. She doesn't want to work through the pain. Pain hurts. It's easier to become someone else, someone who doesn't have that pain, than to address it and embrace it as an aspect of herself. That said, what has gotten stronger about Shallan are her walls. She is able to be confident because she has built up protective walls to strengthen herself. To a degree, we all build up walls in our personality so that others will not see what we don't want them to. We learn an accent or dialect because we don't want to come off as uncultured, or we take an interest in something because we want to fit in, or we create a persona of confidence so that others don't see how much we doubt. Shallan has done this repeatedly, over and over, because again, deep down she feels broken, afraid, and pain so bad she should be comatose. She even says this during WoR, that she would be the broken girl from the flashbacks again. The problem is, those walls were as much to hide that part of her from herself, as others, and if she doesn't want to recognize it about herself, than she's absolutely not going to want to let anyone else see that part of her. Because of that she can't be honest, because of that she has to create personas to be around other people, and because of that she is now turning to these personas instead of truly accepting and dealing with the pain. Eventually, she's going to spiral out of control unless she gains a hold on who she is and comes to realize that her experiences have defined her. Remember also that her Truths so far have been "I'm terrified", "I killed my father", "my Shardblade is different from all the other Shardblades", and "my mother tried to kill me." These are deep and heavy truths, and they signify that inner Shallan that she tries so desperately to hide, the one that was broken and numb. It's who she fears becoming.

I would really like to see an interaction between Brightness Radiant and Kaladin. Just saying, though for reasons I've previously stated regarding Shallan's nature, I doubt that would happen. She'd revert to Shallan as soon as he opened his mouth. And seriously...Shallagaz??? Blech.

Everything about this second murder speaks of psychological warfare. This isn't just a revenge murder, this isn't just a warning--a simple dead body with a message would be sufficient to prove that point. Instead, we have a murder that is done in exactly the same manner, with exactly the same markings, and referencing a line in the conversation that only Sadeas's killer, and Sadeas, would know. Ialai has been shown to be quite adept at rooting out information, and even Sadeas described her as particularly cunning and ruthless. She would have known about his plan to discredit Dalinar upon arrival in Urithiru, and honestly, Sadeas and she probably had a contingency plan in place in the event that Sadeas did end up dying. It's not far-fetched to think that Ialai deduced the information in a similar matter to what Harry said, and then put in motion a plan to discredit Dalinar as well as taunt the murderer. And I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but Sadeas knew Adolin was a firebrand. He knew Adolin was hot-headed and prone to rash actions in the heat of the moment. He counted on that during Words of Radiance and took advantage of it for the 4-on-1 duel. What I wonder is that perhaps Sadeas set up his own murder at the hands of Adolin, using just the right words to egg Adolin on, and if so then it's possible that his own death was a possible path for his plan to take. I'm not sold on it, Sadeas was pretty power hungry, but it's not implausible for Sadeas or by extension, Ialai.

I believe his comment was more applicable to Shallan and Adolin, but near the end of Words of Radiance (after saving the king) and in the beginning of Oathbringer we do see that he has begun to shift in his view of lighteyes. I think it's in his first Oathbringer chapter that he starts thinking ill of lighteyes again and goes "Oh. Right. I'm one of them now," and though he decks Roshone, he doesn't show the same antagonism he's had for the last two books. I imagine part of that has to do with Shallan, since she showed him that she, a lighteyes, understood his pain and life of hardship, of living a broken life, better than pretty much anyone he had met until that point. That said... I agree 100%. To do otherwise would be to replicate the same tiresome triangle trope, and Brandon has said he's not fond of that either. Again, let's not overlook the significance of Shallan's actions here, either. Shallan opened up to Kaladin in a way she has done for no one else. Yes, she was still thinking about Adolin, but there's a bit of thought after on her part that shows she's seeing Kaladin in a different light as well. Their experiences create a bond, one that I personally would like to see enhanced and expounded on. I'm not discounting the importance of Shallan's relationship with Adolin, I just personally want to see that angle explored more. If it doesn't happen until after Adolin leaves, and she ultimately ends up with Adolin anyway, that's fine. Eat crem.

Hehe I got quoted by Maxal! To go along with your point, I don't mean that Adolin is an enraged madman. Far from it, and don't get me wrong, I love Adolin as a character, and especially your analysis(es) of him. He's hotheaded, yes, but he's kind and has a good head on his shoulders. But it doesn't change the fact that, regardless of how far he was provoked, in a fit of rage he snapped and murdered someone. It even says in WoR that he snapped, and he told Sadeas right before plunging the dagger into his eye that he (Adolin) was not a good man. Not only that, but after stabbing Sadeas he proceeded to scrape the blade around Sadeas's skull. Shallan has already drawn a parallel between Adolin and her father subconsciously once--when Adolin told her following the battle that he would protect her and never let any harm come to her. It was that overprotective behavior of her father that ultimately drove the events of her childhood leading to his death, and when Shallan learns that Adolin has murdered someone in anger, she will inevitably draw the parallel to her father as well and I truly believe that will drive them apart. Perhaps, eventually they'll come back together, eventually she might grow to peace with it, but we'll have to wait and see. I agree that I think Shallan will understand the necessity, but the idea that she will just be there for him and understand just doesn't sit well with me. I feel the same way about Shallan that you do about Adolin, and out of all the SA characters, she's the one I most identify with. She is hurting, she is scarred, and Adolin's actions are way too similar to her father's for her to just be okay with it. She saw her father turn from a kind, loving man who would sing her to sleep and protect her to a monster, and it was her fault, and seeing Adolin go down the same path is going to terrify her. As I stated earlier, I think one of the reasons she holds so tightly to Adolin is because her relationship is a piece of normalcy in a world that is rapidly collapsing around her, it's a little glimmer of happiness and what her life could have been, and she desperately doesn't want to lose that. It also doesn't help that he's super attractive to her, but where will their relationship be in ten years? Five? If Adolin is capable of killing someone in anger, will he eventually turn his anger on her, as her father did with her stepmother? Will Adolin beat their children when he gets angry? These are serious questions that will be raised when she finds out. The big difference here is you are attaching the cold logic of Shallan's situation to Adolin's situation. Shallan killed her father yes. She did it because there was no other option. She tried to kill him with poison, to send him off semi-peacefully, but knew when he started waking that he would likely kill everyone there, and there was no possible way they could have escaped, so she killed him--strangled him--to protect everyone else that she loved. Adolin's situation was not this way. It was not meditated, it was not thought out. Sadeas taunted him and told him of his plans. Adolin could have left, he could have stormed off and told his father. Unlike Shallan's situation, Adolin had a way to retreat without killing. That's not what happened. He got angry, he got emotional and he snapped, and he murdered Sadeas. I'm not saying that he wasn't pushed to a breaking point--he most definitely was, but Adolin did not analyze the situation and decide that killing Sadeas would solve the problems, he killed Sadeas because he was angry, and because he hated Sadeas. And no, I don't think Shallan will be mad. I think she'll be terrified. Shallan understood that Amaram was likely defending himself when he "killed" Heleran and she still thought of him as a bastard even before Kaladin told her his story. Shallan might understand Kaladin's need to kill her brother, but it does not change the fact that the blood of the brother everyone in her family admired, including Shallan, is on Kaladin's hands. Could she over come that? Maybe, if Kaladin had admitted it to her as soon as he realized the truth. Brandon left a bomb in Kaladin and Shallan's relationship by having Kaladin keep his mouth shut. It's not just that Kaladin killed her brother. It is also that he didn't admit to it. When she finds out from anyone other than Kaladin that is going to put a huge wedge between them and kill any flirting with a relationship. Oookay. Let me explain myself here. I ship Shalladin not because I'm a Kaladin fan, or because I'm anti-Adolin or anything of the sort. I'm actually a huge Shallan fanboy, so I ship Shalladin because in their relationship I see Shallan at her most genuine. Not once when she is interacting with Kaladin does she put on an act or a persona (excepting that very first, hilarious horn-eater princess). She is her true self around him, which she is not around Adolin. To quote the CW's show "Arrow", around Adolin she must become someone else, she must become something else. Adolin is endearing, he is charming, he is very handsome, but she can't let him see the true Shallan, the broken, hurting, frightened girl that doesn't understand why her mother tried to kill her, and why her father turned into a monster. Around Adolin she is "Shallan, the scholar" or "Shallan, the light-eyed girl" or "Brightness Radiant" even, but she keeps part of herself closed off because she is afraid. Around Kaladin she is genuine. Regarding Heleran, I agree completely that the truth of that needs to come from Kaladin. I think if it doesn't it will really hurt her. But in the same way she opened herself up to him, he has opened himself to her. There is a bond there that is lacking with Adolin. I could see that. Jasnah might actually be better tempered to suit Kaladin, but I honestly have a hard time seeing Jasnah with anyone. It's kind of implied in WoK that she already had a romance that fell apart when she tells Shallan about the Book of Endless Pages (not sure if that's the right title). Agreed. People have strong feelings about their SA OTP.

Okay, I am one of those aforementioned "Shalladin" people. Here's my thoughts on the matter: I think Shadolin is going to fall apart, at least in this part of the story, and the revelation that Adolin not only killed Sadeas, but murdered him in a fit of rage, is going to be the final wedge that drives them apart. They may end up back together, they may not. And before I get started let me make it clear that although I am a Shalladin shipper, I do think that Shallan and Adolin are cute together, and that ultimately I will be happy with whomever Shallan ends up with, because she's my favorite anyway. Here's why I think what I do: First, mentally, Adolin is going to fall apart. He's showing signs of this already. He murdered a high prince in a fit of rage and hatred, then hid the fact. Adolin has previously demonstrated that when things get tough and stressful, he pulls away from those around him--he remains amicable, but his numerous courtships, his despair over Dalinar when he thought Dalinar was going mad, his hurting over Sureblood, he simply doesn't talk to others about what is inside. He hides, he withdraws, and ultimately pushes people away rather than letting them see him for who he is, and as much as I love Dalinar, Adolin's father is a huge cause of that. He's grown up as the prized son, and now he's not only done something bad, but he's snapped and done something terrible. If Adolin had previously demonstrated an ability to confide up until now, he might be able to take what is coming, but unless he majorly changes and starts confiding in Shallan, the stress of everything is going to cause him to break down. Second, Shallan hates murderers. This is an important aspect of her character--she was horrified by Jasnah's actions in WoK, and Adolin's actions are too much like her father's. Remember that Shallan's upbringing has caused a lot of scars and she shows some signs of PTSD, and when her father got angry he beat and ultimately ended up murdering. His rage grew uncontrollable, and no matter how well their relationship progresses, the eventual revelation of Adolin's murdering Sadeas will horrify her and lead her to doubt whether or not Adolin will end up the same way. Third, while their relationship is cute and charming, there is no glue to hold them together. Shallan's interest in Adolin is very much physical--the most recent chapters have demonstrated that. She cares for him, but right now she doesn't really click with Adolin. Not yet, anyway. I think, or at least this is my opinion, that Shallan wants to be with Adolin because Adolin represents the life she could have had. He represents normalcy in a way that she has never had. Kaladin doesn't represent that--Kaladin is dark, brooding, dour...etc. Adolin is happy, optimistic, and most importantly attractive, but there is nothing so far to say that Shallan and Adolin would hold up for a length of time. Fourth, I disagree with this. The reason us Shalladin people exist is because Shallan and Kaladin seem to click better to us than Shallan and Adolin. Shallan's wit goes right over Adolin's head. Kaladin's mother had a very similar wit to Shallan's, and he reacts to it in remarkable ways. Shallan is academic and looks at situations from an artistic perspective--Adolin looks at things much like his father: as a soldier. He has a hard time looking at things in the detached, logical way that is an academic. Kaladin showed not only an interest in her art, but also has more of an academic mind from his years training as a surgeon under his father. Yes, Shallan and Kaladin don't always speak the same social language at times, but neither do Shallan and Adolin, and for that matter neither do Kaladin and Adolin. Also, with regards to Heleran, I'm really not sure how Shallan will take that. It seems to me almost that it will be one of her truths, something like "Kaladin killed Heleran", but here's the thing: Shallan's a smart girl. She heard Kaladin's story, and will eventually make the connection to Kaladin killing Heleran. That will come out. But for Kaladin, killing Heleran wasn't an act of hatred or rage, or even greed--it was an act of protection. He was trying to protect his liege lord and his men. Heleran was slaughtering his people on the field, and Kaladin did what he had to do to save them. When things finally come down, I think all of that will make a difference to Shallan. Adolin, on the otherhand and as I've already said, murdered Sadeas in a fit of rage. He wasn't protecting Dalinar, he wasn't stopping conflict--he killed Sadeas out of hatred. And I really think that will scare Shallan.

Hey all! I think a major problem with our thought process is that the protagonists that we follow are on the "good" side of the spectrum. It's been asked elsewhere, but the main question is "what defines good/evil"? We are sitting here saying that Honor = Good because we are following the "honorable" protagonists who are "good", but in reality that's just not the case. In reverse, we perceive Odium as "evil" because he is running counter to our protagonists and Honor (which is "good"). He's not "evil", necessarily, but he is running counter to the protagonists and heroes that we love and believe in. That said, there are multiple examples in the books already that Radiants do not have to be "good" to bind their spren. Jasnah murders four men in cold blood in WoK, and she's clearly on the radiant path. Shallan murders her mother and father, and Pattern doesn't really seem to care. Dalinar was a rampaging warlord who took revelry in slaughter, and effectively usurped a kingdom from his nephew, but still bonds the Stormfather without problem. Szeth killed...how many people? Not to mention the Heralds, like Nale, or Shallash. These are not "good" actions, not when you take them on their own. Syl tells Kaladin that the law is not as important as what is right. Also, Lyft prides herself on theft, but Wyndle seems to have a startling lack of care for the impact of Lyft's actions beyond how they impact him. It's an important thing to consider, especially since we have other examples of diametrically opposed Shards not lining up with "Hero's Shard = good, Villain's Shard = bad." Don't forget that Preservation liked and took pride in the Lord Ruler, while Ruin was particularly fond of Kelsier. I think part of what caused the Recreance was the inevitable conflict between the Orders. They were founded to fight the Desolations and save humanity, but may have ultimately fell to infighting. Perhaps the reason the Windrunners and Stonewards did what they did at Feverstone Keep was because they felt they had been betrayed by those they were trying to fight for, or with. We just don't know what happened yet.

Hey, everyone. This is my first real post. I joined the forums for the Aether of Night download (which I loved), but I've kept eyes on this forum for a few years now, and I must say some of the theories fascinate me. I'm an avid Wheel of Time fan (working on my second read-through of the entire series), and a bit of a Brandon Sanderson fanboy. Absolutely in love with the Cosmere and the interplay between the various worlds and events. I have some of my own theories, but up until recently have been too intimidated or busy to post (recently finished college and wife gave birth to a second baby). IRL, I'm working on building a portfolio of 3D modeled props to further a career in video games, work full time, and am a father of a two-year-old and a one-week-old. In my spare time I like to read, play video games, and work on the first book in an epic fantasy series that I hope will be quite different from the majority of what's out there, though I think I'm still a few years off from having a first draft. Chances are, I probably won't post super often, since I don't post what I consider a frivolous comment, but I look forward to joining the 17th Shard family of conspiracy-shipping-theorists. P.S. I am a Shalladin fan. Shadolin can go eat crem.