Alderant

Mistborn was my first, too, actually...It went Mistborn (all 3), Elantris, Warbreaker, then SA (which is when I started getting into the Cosmere). The one that really got me in The Final Empire was the variety of belief systems Sazed kept talking about. I took notes! (I never take notes) I thought it was fascinating.

I agree. I think we've done a fairly good job of containing it to...83 pages.

I agree with everything you said in this paragraph. The way I read it was that Kaladin was A) discouraged by his inabilities in Oathbringer, B ) resigning to the fact that Shallan chose Adolin, which was the "way it should be", C) repressing his feelings as he'd been doing since the very end of WoR, and D) beating himself up and telling himself he didn't deserve to be happy, that he was flawed and didn't deserve her. Which is a startling parallel to Shallan's emotional struggle at the end of the book, where she is telling herself that she does deserve to be happy. I don't agree with this one. I think this is dangerous ground for a character to walk on, and if Shallan were to re-integrate, I would want her to decide to stick it out because even if half of her didn't want to do it, she still made the choice. It wasn't some external force acting on her and forcing her to make that choice--some part of her did want to make that choice and she did. As I said above, I'd rather see her struggle to maintain her marriage than peace out. It would make for a better story and better character development.

I would like to point out that Navani and Dalinar did not have a traditional Vorin wedding, so using their marriage as indicative of Vorin marriage oaths is probably not the strongest foundation for your argument. That said, while divorce might be permissible to the Vorin church, I don't know if divorce would be permissible to the Stormfather, who seems to view oaths as eternally binding. But we're not discussing Navani and Dalinar, here, we're discussing the idea that Shallan and Adolin would divorce because Shallan's heart is in a different place. I don't want to see that. I would rather see her struggle to keep her marriage vows and have something happen to Adolin, than for her to decide that "Whoops, I made the wrong choice. Bye Adolin!" That would drive me bonkers. Some people actually feel that way, though I agree with you that I doubt Brandon would write such a universe where that's generally permissible. However, the real concern of breaking an oath here is not in the actual divorce--its the implied infidelity prior to the divorce. That is breaking an oath, and that's one that many people have a strong reaction to, both in the Cosmere and in our world.

I understand that stance. I can relate with that stance. But as I said, the term originated in the 70s, and described an entire genre of narrative fanfiction-esque stories ("Mary Sue stories"), not the 90s or 2000s. When the fanfiction community blossomed with the advent of fanfiction websites, of course the word would have taken on new meaning and drastically. But I heard the term when I was a child, before I even knew about internet fanfiction, and used in reference to characters from published movies and books, so take that for what you will.

Believe it or not, I agree with you too. It's not that I think Shallan takes her oaths seriously, but rather I believe that she is too desperate to cling to what she has to risk jeopardizing her new marriage over it. We haven't even seen her accept her last Truth about her family, but that Truth, I think, would stand in the way of the possibility of divorce. Adolin is now part of her family. As Greywatch said, Shallan breaking her oath would sour not just her relationship with Adolin (which she desperately clings to), but probably the rest of the main cast as well, since many of them hold to their word and believe others should as well. And yes, while her Truths are more important to her spren than oaths are, I don't think Shallan is the type of person to place so little value on a promise. I do, however, think she jumped into the marriage a little too hastily, and that that was an act of desperation, rather than careful consideration of her own feelings and analysis of her true desires.

I think that's a hallmark difference between epic fantasy in general and most modern fantasy. Even in the Wheel of Time, where religion is practically non-existent, the presence of a god (the Creator) is so hardcoded into the logic of the world that you never doubt that he exists, even if he never involves himself in the story. Belief in a higher power or deity is a powerful motivator and aspect of humankind. I think it's often stereotyped or idealized in high fantasy (e.g., all orcs worship gruumsh, and such), but one of the reasons I love epic fantasy, Brandon's Cosmere in particular, is that religion is not just a thing or trait--it has impact, it profoundly affects the characters' lives, and often has impact on the world at large as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that point--but literally every time I have heard it used in context to a character, it has been applied in the context I have defined. Maybe that's because I don't read a lot of fanfiction (that stuff gets weird), so I didn't hear of the latter definition until later, maybe not, but if you want to take such a hard stance and say that only your definition is correct, then I am not going to try to keep arguing with you about it.

I'm with @Greywatch on this one. I don't know that divorce is necessarily on the table for Shallan--she clings too desperately to Adolin as the "life she wants" to jeopardize that, I think.

Not disagreeing with you there, but the original definition still stands in that it described a character who was seemingly perfect and could do no wrong. Over time however, its use did turn into the definition you described. I agree that the definition you used cannot be attributed to Adolin.

That is also a correct definition, though it existed prior to the "self-insertion" movement. With respect, however, the term originated in the 70s, and meant the definition I gave above. It was created because of Paula Smith's Lieutenant Mary Sue--it was a Star Trek fanfic about a character who was the youngest, brightest, and best in the intergalactic fleet. Just so you know.

I think the point was that Scadrian metals are inherently invested. Nalthian metals are not (I believe the flowers the pigments are made from are what is naturally invested on Nalthis). Since Nightblood destroys investiture, the theory had something to do with Nightblood being made of an invested metal and thus corrupted investiture when it encounter it. Though I could be entirely wrong--I could be misunderstanding the theory entirely, or this entire comment could be off-base. I'll let someone else say yay or nay, since I'm not super familiar with Nalthis (I've only read warbreaker twice, and I wasn't really into the Cosmere until later).

I agree with everything you said here. Your points are actually what I was trying to address, and maybe was misunderstood here. Adolin is a viewpoint character, but as I said with epic fantasy writing, merely being a viewpoint character does not necessarily mean that you are a main character (according to the author). In Harry Potter, Harry is the main character--there's only one, and with the style it is written in, only main characters get viewpoints. Ron and Hermione are the sole secondary characters, with the rest of the cast being relegated to tertiary or lower priority within the story. In this style of fiction, generally all characters other than the main are viewed as supplementary, with only primary (main) and secondary characters usually getting resolution at the end of the series. In SA, Adolin fills a similar priority role to Ron, but due to the stylistic differences (where characters other than main characters get viewpoints), he gets much more screen time. He is not a "minor supporting character," as you mention here, though neither I would argue is Ron. Adolin is a secondary character--I would argue that Navani, your other example, is actually of tertiary importance in SA. She has very few conflicts, very little development, and exists primarily as a character dependent on a main character's development for her own. Adolin is not written this way. He has actual arcs, albeit they are small. He has independent plots that are written, as opposed to Navani. However, as a secondary character his primary role is to augment and support the main characters and their plotlines and developments. He's not wholly dependent on a main character for his development--he's in this weird middle ground where he matters just enough to us to be important, but not quite enough to be fully developed as we would like. I do agree that he had begun to outgrow his role as a secondary character during WoR. The murder of Sadeas was, at the time, a big deal. It was a cliffhanger ending for the character, and one that promised a lot. Unfortunately, it appears that to the author, the murder of Sadeas was much less important than it was written to be, and because of Adolin's secondary nature, the aftermath for Adolin is not as important as other events. This is why what happened to Adolin never really mattered in OB, because although he appeared to start outgrowing his role, in the author's eyes this was simply never the case. This is also why I argue that the whole Maya arc will either A) not be as important as some believe (because Adolin simply isn't an important enough character to the plot), or B ) the Maya resurrection idea will be a catalyst for something that happens later of more significance to the plot. I would have liked to see more--it just doesn't seem like Adolin is being written that way. A Mary Sue character is generally considered to be one that never does wrong. Wikipedia - " A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character." It's not that he magically finds a way and has no character depth, its just that he's seemingly perfect. Ewan McGregor's character in Down With Love begins very much as a Mary Sue character--he's a "ladies' man, man's man, man about town." Loved by all, admired by all, all women want him, etc. This is very much in line with how Adolin is described and treated within the story. He's the most elegible bachelor in Alethkar, he's extremely handsome, charming, the best duelist, and honorable to boot. He puts others first, sacrificing his own desires and insecurities for what is best for those he cares about. All the main characters, and many supporting charcters, like him. He instantly wins bridge four over. And, I mean, if the guy can murder one of the most important and powerful men in the Alethi kingdom and no one cares/he is congratulated for it, I would argue quite strongly that Adoliln is a Mary Sue character. And again, to everyone involved, please remember that I actually like Adolin. I might seem hard on him, but I like him about as much as I like Kaladin.

@Govir I believe he finished it at the very end of Oathbringer--though I've only read the book once and was quite tired by the time I got to the end of it. The last few scenes of him (to my memory) were him writing the book itself, and he gave it the title at the end of the book. Someone else with the book on hand might be able to get you the exact text, but I only have the audiobook, so it would take me a while to find that spot and transcribe it out.

Oh, don't worry about it. I've been listening to Hero of Ages and had just read that part before I saw your comment.

My personal thoughts on this topic are thus: Eight of the most morally evil words in the English language are the phrases "For the greater good" and "the lesser of two evils". Those who use these phrases are those who are, at some point of higher level guilt, trying to excuse the actions that they are taking. No good person commits a heinous act willingly. This is a topic of great debate in the TV show The 100, but the big difference between Dalinar and Amaram, as I see it, is that Dalinar ultimately owns up to his actions, and Amaram ultimately tries to excuse them away. Dalinar, despite his wicked and murderous history, has become the kind of man who will not sacrifice his people just to gain an advantage or because of "the greater good". He will do everything within his power to save everyone he can--he views all humanity as important and valuable. There are many other directions Dalinar could have gone in the book. He could have taken the path of the Warlord, as Taravangian did. He could have conquered Roshar and forced it into unity behind him. His conquering and slaughtering of the other nations would have been "for the greater good," since he would have known of the coming threat to humanity. But he didn't. He sought unity and peace, but never tried to excuse his actions as not his fault. He was trying to be a good man, and because of this he was ultimately able to stand up to Odium. Amaram, on the other hand, does the exact opposite. He takes the easy route, excusing his actions as "for the greater good" to soothe his conscience. He knows what he's doing is morally reprehensible, but he continually tells himself that it's "for the greater good," therefore he shouldn't have to feel the guilt for the consequences. "It's not my fault that these men have to die, I'm the best candidate. Their deaths are for the greater good." This is a simple example of how these words twist Amaram's conscience, and because of that, he ultimately succumbed to Odium's temptations that his actions were not his fault.

Elsecallers already have a Radiant, so they've not sworn off bonding entirely. Also, bear in mind that Lift is a main character for the back five. Kaladin is a main character for the front five. Teft, and the other Bridge Four windrunners, serve two functions: A) they serve as a plot device to show how the orders are growing under their Radiants and that squires can potentially become Radiants without the trials the original Radiants endured, and B ) they also serve as a plot reflection on the situation of squires directly related to a main character Radiant. Kaladin's arcs are inextricably tied to Bridge Four, so plotwise it makes sense to include them. Having Adolin revive his spren just to provide another Edgedancer POV logically makes no sense. We have Lift as our main Edgedancer, and while their order wasn't known for large numbers of squires, though they probably had a few. Adolin is not tied to Lift in any way, so having him as a POV Edgedancer doesn't make sense there, either. And yes, while it would be cool, the "precious memories from the past" is already filled with the caches discovered at Urithiru. We're also seeing the return of spren to mankind despite their hesitance already. And finally, having Adolin revive his blade doesn't necessarily mean that suddenly all the old shardblades would be able to be revived. Many of those dead spren hate hate hate humanity for what happened to them, and since most who wield shardblades regard them as weapons and not spren, it would be extraordinarily difficult and convoluted to make that a plot point, since you would need a slew of other POVs where people were "reawakening" their shardblades in addition to Adolin's own. I don't think that's the direction Brandon is headed with this story, especially since Adolin isn't a main character. If he was, maybe. But as it stands now, doubt it. I think this may have been more of an act of desperation on Shallan's part--a way to avoid confronting her problems, as she's so keen to do--rather than a "yeah, getting married right now's a good idea" scenario.

@Calderis @The One Who Connects @StormingTexan I'll spoiler so I don't accidentally give something away. However, my own thoughts aside, I'll concede. It's not worth arguing about, haha.

I doubt this will actually happen, considering Dalinar just finished a book that details that very fact, without telling his son first. I agree somewhat, but comparing something like SA or WoT to Harry Potter is very much comparing apples to oranges. Harry Potter has a very small cast that is written entirely from the viewpoint of one character. There are only a handful of significant characters, and since the entirety of the series is written from one viewpoint, there isn't any need for outside views on the situations, characters, or events. Harry Potter is not about Hermione, Ron, or anyone else--it is about Harry Potter. Epic fantasy, however, is known for its large cast of characters. It's known for plots that involve entire continents and nations. So it is frequent to use alternative viewpoints on a semi-static character as a way of demonstrating aspects of other characters or situations from another viewpoint that is not the main characters'. With such a large cast of characters, the story is not about simply one person, it's about a group of people, as well as the situations and conflicts that swirl around them. Unfortunately, what Adolin's character seems to be is that he is a viewpoint for us to learn plot points and character perceptions through. In WoK most of his viewpoints are Dalinar-centric. We get insights to him as a character, but he is used primarily as a tool to help us understand Dalinar from an outsider's perspective. In WoR he began to take on his own presence, though there were several scenes from his viewpoint that were Dalinar-centric as well as a few that were Shallan-centric. In OB, most of his scenes are Shallan-centric. This is also why we see very little development on his character--because he exists, as Brandon states, primarily as a device to further the plots that are occurring in the world and with the characters around him. The Sadeas plot didn't ultimately matter because it was a segue for two plot points: the battle of Thaylen Field and the appearance of Re-Shephir. I think this is primarily what is so frustrating about his character. We all want him to be a main character, but in Brandon's mind, he is not. He is a side character. Which is why I believe as the plot stands now, we have more to gain by losing him than by having him continue in a convoluted plot to resurrect a dead spren. His continued existence will probably be more of the same, but his absence will affect the main characters profoundly. But that last part's just my own thoughts on the matter.

Just a small note here: the Lord Ruler was not aware of the existence of nicrosil. He even said so in his metal plates scattered throughout the storehouses. The only metals he knew of were the base eight, gold, aluminum, possibly duralamin (that's not explicitly confirmed in the text, but Vin discovered it, so maybe), atium, malatium, and electrum. Logically therefore, if the Lord Ruler was ignorant than the feruchemists of the time were unaware of its existence as well, as the Lord Ruler was one of the ancient feruchemists from before the Final Empire. So as has been pointed out, the chances of Shashara deciding to go to Scadrial, which at the time would have been fairly treacherous to begin with according to Hoid's comments in Secret History, and track down a metal that was only known to Preservation (and possibly Ruin) at the time, mine it, find out its spiritual properties, and then haul enough ore back to Nalthis to forge into a sword of Nightblood's size, would have been nigh on impossible.

My psychiatrist told me something similar, lol. You know, it's funny you mention that because back in the days of pre-release Oathbringer, it was often speculated that there was going to be some conflict for Kal regarding his tendency to want to protect those he loves. And the thing about Kal is that he loves easily. I don't mean in a romantic sense, but when Kal finds someone that he appreciates or respects, he grows to care about them in an almost familial way. And I don't necessary think his arc was a step back, but it was definitely a setback. He's never really had to face the idea that people he cares about are fighting one another--it's always been an "us" and "them" scenario for him. This time, he cared about both factions, and his inability to prevent the slaughter caused him to stall and ultimately resulted in the death of a man he had sworn to protect. That was psychologically damaging--it shattered the confidence that had begun to build within him at the beginning of the book and he was left nearly catatonic by the shock. His inability to cope with his failures is ultimately what stalled him in saying the fourth oath--he was not at a place where he was capable of saying it. The more I talk to others, the more that I'm inclined to agree with this. When I finished the book, I was left very dissatisfied because I thought that was it. But admittedly, I was rather overwhelmed by the book and focused on other elements of the plot, so I'm starting to see how this might actually have been a very clever set-up...

@maxal Believe it or not, I actually understand where you are coming from. Shallans my favorite character, but on my first read through I found myself lapsing on several of her scenes and would have to go back and relisten to them (I primarily read via audible). I think there is a strong possibility of that being the next Truth, actually. Or possibly along the lines of “I am broken but not irredeemable.”

No, I really don't think that was the right time for Adolin to die. His death wouldn't have really had meaning at that point, other than to slam home to Kaladin how worthless he was. While Brandon does shift things around between books, I don't think that's why he forebeared. As far as the Adolin getting dark idea, I thought that once, but now I feel it would just make the plot convoluted. What would be the point? There's no driving plot element that would make that a reasonable plot point. As @SLNC mentioned above--Adolin's plot largely appears to be finished. As of the end of Oathbringer, he has very little, if any, remaining conflicts to be resolved that are necessary to the development of the plot. Everyone else, on the other hand, has a whole heap of baggage to work through still. And this was Adolin's biggest book. I think he was in Oathbringer more than either of the two previous books. It is fun to consider possibilities though.

I'm pretty sure there's a very big difference between Lopen and Shallan...I feel like Lopen is actually genuine in his smiles. Some people react to hardship with smiles and laughter. Shallan, though...that's not the case. The big gripe I have with this is that becoming a squire has less to do with hardship than it does with having a Connection to a Radiant. Think about it in medieval terms. The first knights were lords who had been given their titles by a man they called their king. They then trained others who were raised to that position to become knights. The first group had to work much harder to gain that status than those that followed. That said, it's not the person entirely that determines whether or not they become a Knight Radiant. A large part of that is dependent on the spren. And we don't have any explicitly full Knights Radiant yet (except Nale). Knights Radiant are what is achieved after all five ideals have been spoken. What we are seeing is just Knights Radiant in training, Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, and co. being the furthest in their progression.

For me, the most powerful scenes were these: Oathbringer: Dalinar, rushing to grab The Way of Kings and holding onto it as his horror at his own history is crashing over him. Evi's Death. Wept uncontrollably at work for about half an hour... Elhokar's Death. I wanted so badly for him to succeed, and for him to die like that, trying to protect his son...yeah, I cried. So what? The entire scene revolving around Elhokar's death from Kaladin's point of view as people he cared about slaughtered each other. Dalinar's "You cannot have my pain" --> his ascension. Shallan's despair after the boy is murdered while under the guise of Veil. Words of Radiance: Kaladin's scene where he stands up to Moash. Shallan's scene where she kills her father. That one got me good. "So sleep, my baby dear." Way of Kings: Amaram's betrayal of Kaladin and his men. Dalinar giving up Oathbringer in order to free Kaladin and the other bridgecrews.