Inquisitor #5

Hmm, I could see that. I personally put more emphasis on her transformative aspect, lining her up with Elsecaller, but I don't think your interpretation is impossible. Interesting, that's not my image of her at all. Other than her frankensteining the local wildlife, Enlightened True spren apparently need to consent to the process somehow, so she can't just decide it unilaterally all the time. She also seems to care for her "children" and want a place for them. She doesn't seem to pressure Glys to take particular actions and she even tells Tumi to not just blindly go along with the deal with Mraize, but to decide who to bond for himself. Thanks Oh, I get it. She parallels the Bondsmiths very well and I'd have put her in that spot myself if I weren't wary of how she had new power at the False Desolation, plus the WoB saying there isn't a Bondsmith equivalent and earlier discourse in the thread. I have personally thought that she would end up being a Bondsmith spren (for whem the whole war against Odium is sorted and we need Bondsmiths representing Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Honor-Cultivation, Honor-Odium, Cultivation-Odium and all three) but that was before I thought that bonding Unmade would create Bondsmith-level Voidbinders of distinct "orders" and instead that any potent enough spren would grant the Bondsmith powerset. I'd also think that the Windrunner powerset at the level of Bondsmith could do everything the Bondsmith powerset can do that's pure Adhesion. Oh, for sure. ¤_¤

Indeed I personally believe that each order generally comes with four manifestations of Investiture, Surge 1, Surge 2, Surge hybrid and Resonance. The hybrid and Resonance seem to be two sides of the same thing, the Resonance being a more passive outgrowth (Windrunners make people gravitate towards them and adhere to them, Lightweavers can make a "cast" of an impression) that falls more along Cognitive/Spirutal/thematic lines. The hybrid Surge seems to more directly be an outgrowth of mixing the active powers, the Reverse Lashing seems to stick a gravitational pull to something, Adhesion of Gravitation, if you will. I will note that we don't know enough to establish if there's a pattern here, or even to say if the best understood hybrid Surge is Adhesion applied to Gravitation, Gravitation applied to Adhesion, or an even mix. As stated above, I do think all Radiants get it. That aside, Division and Gravitation, hmm... If my guess is correct then the pattern should be that Surge 2 gets used "through" Surge 1 (Gravitation being Adhered to something as our clearest example). If this is correct the Skybreaker hybrid should be Division filtered through Gravitation. One possibility I see is the possibility of creating a more directional Division, something like "only burn north" or "burn to this point but no further" or possibly allowing you to specify a target, creating homing attacks. (Incidentally, this frames Renarin's stained glass as Progression of Illumination) Interestingly I'd think that Adhesion is actually the best bet for implosion, being the Surge of Pressure and Vacuum and all. Jasnah's ranged Soulcasting might come from there, imo. Why thank you. I do wish that I'd been able to articulate it better, but I suppose I got my point across. That is an entirely fair take, good observation. If we start with the idea that she is, essentially, a creationspren, I think we can unravel some stuff. Creationspren are known to be drawn to artistic creation, seeming to not have a set shape, but shift in mimicry of objects around them. Re-Shephir applies this same mimicry to acts of violence/killing, but far more so, she copies not only the appearnace but the whole "art piece." Given how Sja-anat claims that they were made, then Unmade, an act we can infer stripped their memories from her reflection on what it would mean for her to be Unmade again, I don't find it hard to believe that the Unmade may once have been either cousinspren or True spren, twisted and inflated by Odium (or made in the same mould as those spren). In Re-Shephir's case leaving behind a very twisted (or damaged) version of that nature once Unmade. Yeah, that. Well put. A thousand times yes! Something novel is more interesting than a retread! That is still a great observation. Hmm, I can see that, it'd be hard to push people where you want them if you don't understand what drives them. Indeed. And I think that neurotically controlling isn't an unreasonable development. I've seen the "twisted windspren" angle before, though I'm not entirely convinced. I can definitely see this being the case, but we lose Mishram again that way. Hmm. Part of the problem is that we can't lock down enough of them yet. Huh, I don't think I've ever seen an attempt to match them to the divine attributes before, neato. I'd argue that the Thrill actually doesn't make you brave, being closer to the subversion/twisting of the attributes proposed for most of the others. Bravery is overcoming fear, the Thrill rather makes you fearless, IMO. It ends up subverting both Brave and Obedient, in the throes of the Thrill you can be neither. Upon further consideration I do think that you might be onto something with this, what with: Bolding mine. The Heralds' duties (which are presumably linked to their associated attributes somehow) are relevant to a method for trapping Unmade. It's not much of a stretch to assume that they are somehow relevant to the natures of the Unmade, or possibly even spren in general, then. Hmm, I'm not super sure on this one, both because I'm biased towards my own idea that she lines up with Elsecaller and because it breaks from the framework of a twisted or wrong version of the attributes. Though I suppose the idea that it has to be a twisted expression might just be what I read into it. In any case, even if what she does can be considered healing, she practices said healing like a mad doctor, basically performing surgeries unasked for on the local wildlife. I think the connection to learned and giving is a stretch, it feels too general to be true. No matter what powers were granted it could be phrased as "allowing one to learn [something stemming from the ability] and giving them the ability to do so." I do however agree entirely with the placement. I'd say that if one wished to find a corruption of learned and giving it's rather in how the ability to see the future seems to manifest both in Enlightened Truthwatchers and Moelach's subjects. It twists learned by just granting information, not context, simply seeing a scene without learning anything tangible. Think of it like a game or movie showing flashes of future scenes out of context, you don't actually learn much even though you've been presented with information. As for giving, both Renarin and Rlain see visions that seemingly come from outside through no prompting of theirs and the Death Rattles are also thrust upon people, with only one person known to have been lucid enough to refuse to speak of the vision he had. It's not a gift as much as an obligation, something thrust upon you. Not only that, but she imitates rather than create, from what we've seen so far. That seems to line up with my placement working from the Surges, not much to say there. For a long time that's exactly where I'd have placed Mishram myself, but as there's a WoB that there isn't a Bondsmith equivalent that seems far more tenuous, in addition to the discourse earlier in the thread. It probably bears to be pointed out, the Windrunner attributes are protecting and leading. If she indeed acted like a mini-Odium during the False Desolation she would probably line up more with leading than guiding. ¤_¤

I think she had a Testamentblade before those Truths, not a Patternblade. She remembers speaking Truths as a child, and to have spoken Truths (rather than a Truth) she'd have reached the Third ideal before killing Testament in any case. I also wouldn't be surprised if she had some similar weirdness to Dalinar. Dalinar tries to summon a Blade when he panics over his memories and while he doesn't manage to pull the Stormfather through he gets something. Shallan might well be in a similar situation, possibly being able to pull Pattern along the pathway established by Testament, allowing her to leapfrog the Ideal requirement because the framework already exists. Is there a functional difference though? Are Truths not Lightweaver Oaths? Both seem to follow the same rules about how you need to internalise them. ¤_¤

Do we actually, finally have confirmation on that? I think it's entirely accurate (except Bondsmiths), but people have quibbled it for so long. ¤_¤

Yep, and I'd be very surprised if hybrid manifestations were unique to only a few orders. That wouldn't surprise me. Here Brandon also has the benefit of not needing to give in-depth explanations, unlike with Szeth telling us the Lashings, because we've only seen if from the perspective of people who don't know what's going on, so Brandon can still be coy about it if he needs to. Why, thank you! This thread just keeps on giving in the "how'd I not notice that!?"-department. That is a wonderful observation! Months ago I had the idea that each Unmade lines up with an emotion taken to an extreme, though my mental state at the time left me with very little energy to engage here, so I never proposed it on the forum. I can't quite remember what I thought, I think it was something along the lines of the observation that the Deadly Sins are all good things taken to an excessive point, or something like that. So Lust is desire taken too far, but desire is a basic motivator to humans, that kind of thing. Same kind of concept with the Unmade, Re-Shephir displays curiosity taken to an obsessive level, like a pop-media "scientist" more concerned with understanding than if the research is ethical. Don't know if I'm on to something there, but it's a fun bit of theorising. Yep, sure does, collective theorising is awesome. Even more, part of the reason the old Radiants might have been so scared of her is that she has the power to override the collective ideas of Roshar. She can just change something that is how it is because of the general perception of things. We already know that Soulcasting seems to feed back from the Cognitive to the Physical, so that kind of feedback might be a possible concern, in addition to Enlightened spren apparently working like a spy- and courier-network. Oh yeah. Though probably not quite as "do anything" as Hal/Kyle/whoever's Lantern Ring. I was also gonna say something about how, based on the Midnight Essence, the hard light might be softer than you'd like, but the first imitation murder is a stab wound, so obviously they can reasonably replicate something as stiff and hard as a knife at least. Hmm, I could see the case for V-Transportation allowing you to inhabit a construct like that, though I feel apprehensive about it. I don't think we have anything to imply that kind of sympathetic feedback, so I'd also assume that doesn't happen. If you were actively "driving" the construct you'd presumably experience any pain it'd feel and such, but nothing that'd physically harm you. I also feel like if that happened Re-Shephir'd be at quite the disadvantage, as a non-Surgebinder can best a Midnight Essence. If hurting them hurt her she'd be very, very vulnerable. In my first attempt to line them up, back before this thread, I made that same call. However, after I remembered Shallan's experience with the Revel, I don't think that's the case. Slicking something will make it slide effortlessly, sure, but there needs to be some force acting on it to make it move. In the same way I can imagine a mental slicking as making people short-sighted and ruled by their desires, as people provide the equivalent of force all on their own. Sounds good so far, but the fact that Shallan experiences an outside pressure to give in and join the Revel implies to me that the Surge in question is one that actively affects on something, rather than passively allowing something to be affected. I put this as Cohesion, but I could also see it as a Cognitive manifestation of Transportation, a re-arranging of one's emotions. Hmm, I suppose so. The Ash-Dustbringer theory is very common, yes. I will point out that none of the Heralds, possibly barring Taln in his lucid moments, really seem to exemplify their associated order anymore. Yes, even head Skybreaker Nale, as he's pushed the Skybreakers to be, if I may mangle the D&D alignment chart, Lawful Insane. He and the Skybreakers are not a force for justice, but a force for law, and furthermore Nale is fully willing to badger people to enact laws simply in service to his goal of making sure the Radiants don't return. Shalash as Dustbringer also makes sense thematically, as their theme is self-mastery and she's dealing with compulsive thoughts. She can not refuse to deface art of herself, so she also fits with Dustbringers seeming to be the kind of people who take a clock apart looking for the tick. I would like it if Brandon actually pulled the wool over our eyes and made Taln the Dustbringer and Ash the Stoneward though. It'd be a fun subversion. In any case, I have such a hard time separating the description of being like a creationspren from Lightweaver, it would be very odd to me if that was a red herring. That I would absolutely love to see, assuming that we find the "cure" for deadeyes next book, there's no mechanical reason for Shallan to be bonded to two spren, as her abilities won't be significantly stronger because of it. While I don't want to dispassionately weigh characters simply as what abilities they bring to the table, one of Shallan's spren being Enlightened is a good reason to keep both bonds going forward, from an out-of-universe perspective. I also happen to be a sucker for weird magical interactions and edge cases, so there's that. Thanks Hmm, I'm not sure about "Odium wins," but I'm fully on board with "Odium doesn't lose." Ohh, that is ominous. I would absolutely hate for that to happen! Like, not in a bad way, but in an "oh no, oh #$%@" kinda way. I suppose like the occupation of Urithiru, but so, so much worse. Thanks for this disturbing possibility, I'm now way more worried about what happens in the next book. (Of course, there's no guarantee that they'll be on team Odium, just like Radiants don't have to be on team Honor.) I'll also say that the face of Roshar has already been irrevocably changed by the arrival of the Everstorm, so why not have this be a thing as well. I do also hope that there will be a Bondsmith-alike, possibly through a bond with the (as yet unconfirmed) spren of the Everstorm. Yeeep, dreading this outcome now. Woo! Also, sorry if it felt like I was directing my additional arguments at you specifically, I simply saw the opportunity to add to what I had already been saying on the subject, but had either missed or not thought about yet in my earlier post. OK, interesting idea. I do wonder how that works out based on this WoB: Seeing as the Fused predate Tanavast's death, as does the Fused being Surgebinders (based on how they are said to have been dangerous even before they learned to command the Surges), she must have let Odium have access to her side of things while in open opposition to him. (Or he could just bypass that at a different level if my theory on how the Fused get Surgebinding is correct.) This line of reasoning also makes me wonder if Mistborn era 2 There's also this WoB: And I think that based on this it's a reasonable assumption that Koravari takes a long view on most things. Based on that, the fact that she's apprehensive to touch Dalinar and what she says to Taravangian, I think it's safe to say that she's opposed to Rayse, but not Odium. So her allowing Rayse to meddle in the Surges as part of her long game isn't implausible. So it would seem. I think Rayse was mostly scared of her as the only being in the area that could easily attack and kill him if he slipped up. But yes, it is odd that she apparently doesn't do... much of anything. That is a fair assesment, each one is a part of a whole ripped free of its context, an idea pushed to its extreme. Funnily enough the same can be said of the Radiants as well, the orders need eachother to not fall into their own virtue taken too far, kinda like the Deadly Sins again. Windrunners could easily turn dystopian in an effort to protect people, basically denying freedom to prevent people from risking harm. Skybreakers... become basically what they have in the books, fancy that. Dustbringers could either go full arsonist or become elitist, seeing other people as not mattering because they've not attained self-mastery. Edgedancers would be easily given to beurocratic gridlock, either from a combination of direct democracy and needing all decisions to be unanimous, or by putting everything up for debate ad infinitum, to make sure everyone gets heard. Truthwatchers are hard to pin down, but I could see them becoming mistrustful of others and mistrusted in turn. Lightweavers are probably the least bad on the list, as they are too individual and fluid to make easy categorical statements about and unlikely to cause administrative damage. Elsecallers could go full dispassionate utilitarian. Willshapers could go full "every man is an island" libertarian/anarchist/ancap/whatever. Stonewards could go inflexible to the extreme and possibly become a beurocratic and ceremonial nightmare. Bondsmiths could (and have, Gavilar) become brutal warlords bent on uniting people, you know, all violent-like. (Thanks for the opportunity to get that out of my system. ) Both the Shards and the Radiants need the others for context. Even seemingly positive ideas like Honor, Mercy and Devotion become something wrong when taken to their logical conclusions. Even then, Ruin is a necessary part of things things need to break on a very basic level to allow life to continue, for instance, molecules being broken down to make other molecules. The overriding directive of Ruin just wants unmoderated destruction. And on the other side, Preservation is the perfect reactionary, wanting things to be as they are, no matter how that is. Preservation would never allow a universe where life exists, chemical reactions wouldn't be allowed to happen, the planets would stand still in space. Any original Vessel is probably just as insane as the Heralds, if more focussed and functional, from having this one overwhelming idea bore into them for thousands of years. Oh, yes, she definitely is dangerous. I don't think that growth, change, evolution is quite accurate. Seeing how she granted both Taravangian and Dalinar what they asked for, after a fashion, I think the same can probably be said to be true of Lift. I don't think granting something that lines up with "not-change" would work very well for her if change is her overriding directive. However, she's not growth, she's Cultivation, there's structure, there's control. That I think is closer to her main directive. I think she has a hard time letting go. At some point it's not feasible to keep holding someone's hand and I'm not sure she's capable of letting go. (Yes, I just characterised Koravari as the helicopterest of parents) She has the Nightwatcher do her thing in the Valley, but she's always looking over her shoulder. She has her fingers all over the place. Even after Taravangian becomes her peer, she's trying to steer him in the direction she wants. And this line of thinking is terrifying and I could definitely see her being a villain in the future now. I do wonder how the whole Fused Surgebinding thing happened now, if it's true that there are no Adhesion Fused because Tanavast held the Surge back from them, is that still in place or could any theoretical new Fused be granted it now? Given my analysis above, I'd place her as opposed, on account of losing control. Or possibly very much on board as long as she gets a say in it, I suppose. Good rant. Ah, maybe I was a little unclear, it's just another Surge in that it behaves like a Surge, interacts with other Surges and follows the pair pattern. If it wasn't an actual Surge, Bondsmiths should be Tension/Gravitation, no? I also feel like at least two Bondsmiths need to be able to use Adhesion, as that at least makes the Radiant chart majority true. We also know that Urithiru does increased air pressure, which is Adhesion. I feel like Bondsmith wouldn't be a category if all of them didn't have powers based in the same Surges. Add to that that Brandon has said that the Surge pairs are natural and I find it very hard to believe that a Nahel spren could grant Tension without granting either Adhesion or Cohesion. Oh, I definitely don't think that the three Bondsmiths overlap perfectly, but I do think that what they do should be rooted in the Bondsmith Surges. Each one should manifest the ability to "grab" the Surges of other orders differently, for instance. The Stormfather does Google Earth, while I could see the Sibling as possibly doing the same on a much finer scale for Urithiru, or possibly being able to project lightweavings throughout the tower as a PA system. I do however think they share the same basic capabilities, like Spiritual Adhesion Duolingo. Hmm, I don't think that Tanavast's death, or even Honor's splintering, should have had that kind of effect. I feel like whatever was done to make the Bondsmith spren Bondsmith spren it wasn't something that needed to be done actively. ¤_¤

Indeed. I've been privately considering the idea that the reason they don't map perfectly to the Radiants is because they map to the Surges instead, though I don't have a solid case for that one yet. It would also possibly make things even harder to pin down, if they map to a Surge do they gain access to both adjacent Surges in some capacity? Yes, Brandon has said that Voidbinding usually oricinates with the Unmade. This gives me a perfect opportunity to adress something I missed in my last post, the idea that Adhesion is purely of Honor and therefore Odium can't grant it. Why can Odium grant powers that are of Honor and Cultivation, but not ones that are of Honor alone? I think something about that narrative doesn't add up, especially given that the standard method of accessing Surgebinding (Radiant bond) just treats it as another Surge. Adding to that, Brandon has confirmed that the Surge pairs are natural, things kinda break if you take Adhesion out in that case. If Odium can grant Surgebinding to the Fused, it stands to reason that he could grant the complete set. And if I can be allowed a tangent, yet another reason why Rayse might not want servants with unrestricted access to Adhesion (i.e. Bondsmith-alikes) is because Bondsmiths seem to be able to act as a representative of a Shard. In Oathbringer, when Dalinar tries to push for a contest of champions, Rayse tells him that as Bondsmith, that is an offer he can make. He doesn't say anything about being the Stormfather's Bondsmith or anything, just Bondsmith. Unless Rayse is just skipping that part or withholding information, it seems that any (or at least multiple) Radiant Bondsmith can stand in for Honor. In any case, even if only the Stormfather's Bondsmith can make deals for Honor, it doesn't matter. Does Rayse seem like he would want anyone to be able to possibly speak for him? Some (pseudo-)mortal making a deal on behalf of Odium because Rayse happened to be preoccupied doesn't sound like something he'd want to chance the tiniest risk of. Tangent over. This does seem to be the case, If I'm anywhere close to right in the OP, Moelach lines up with Progression/Truthwatcher, who are known to see the future when Enlightened. I'm not so sure about this, I used to think it was an expression of Illumination, but I don't think that's entirely the case anymore. At the start of RoW we see Renarin and his Funky Ball of Light, which seems to be his manifestation of Illumination. Now, it can definitely do some odd things, showing (illuminating one might say) how things could have been different if people had made different choices. (And also messing with Moash's Edgelord powers, apparently.) This is very different from how Illumination manifests in ordinary Radiants and is the part that seems pretty unanimously agreed by the fandom is Voidbinding. We also see that Adolin gets a flash of his perfect self when Renarin uses Progression on him. This, coupled with some speculation earlier in the thread, seems to make a pretty compelling case for Renarin's Progression also being Voidish. Both his Surges definitely seem skewed or twisted towards the Spiritual, what with the temporal manifestation of Illumination and the perfect self vision of Progression. Neither one fully accounts for the stained glass vision however and I'm inclined to believe either his Resonance or hybrid power is responsible. I'd say hybrid power seems somewhat more likely, as it seems to directly manifest bits of both powers, without wholly being either, just like a reverse lashing. Heh, and that's what I get for not reading the post I'm responding to properly. As I've already said above, I'd also hit on that idea. There's also the thought that the Unmade don't line up with a Surge, but a hybrid power, like what I find Renarin's future sight likely to be. I feel that can't be quite right however, as that's just a backwards way of linking them to a specific order again. I'll have to respectfully disagree, out of preference for my own conclusions. I think I got the idea right to start with and this is incompatible with my system, so I can't hold both to be true at once. I don't mean to sound all full of myself, or to imply that this is factually incorrect or not worth pursuing, so I hope that's not how I come across. It's also based on assumptions that I disagree with, as detailed above. I also feel that a system that can map Mishram to Adhesion, which focus on the second Surge of each order prohibits as there's no Bondsmith, handily explains Mishram's new abilities during the False Desolation in a simple, satisfying manner. Going by the assumptions already made, (Renarin's Voidbinding, Moelach maps to Truthwatcher) it would definitely seem that the Unmade fall along Voidish lines. The Unmade seem to be Voidbinding, which, judging by Renarin and the influence of several Unmade, generally seems to skew the same base Surges towards Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations or possibly just manifesting most strongly along lines that Surgebinding generally doesn't. In the gaps, or voids, of Surgebinding, if you will. As Surgebinding generally seems to favour Physical manifestations of power, Voidbinding might show a general trend towards the non-Physical. Moelach's future sight, Ashertmarn and Nergaoul's respective influences, possibly Sja-anat's transformation of spren (compare to standard Soulcasting, interacting with the Cognitive to change the Physical, versus affecting change in the Cognitive [and possibly Spiritual.]) Now, Re-Shephir and Yelig-nar show obvious signs of Physical manifestations, but then again, just like Surgebinding can have non-Physical manifestations, Voidbinding should have Physical manifestations. Or I'm completely off base and the supposed trend is just the result of a biased sample. I do think that, as suggested earlier in the thread, we can make guesses about the "Knights Enlightened" and the Unmade based on eachother. Enightened Elsecallers should have abilities that fall along the same lines as Sja-anat, for instance, but I couldn't begin to tell you what that would actually mean. Same for Enlightweavers and Re-Shephir, with my only speculation being that they could possibly manifest sci-fi style hard light. I definitely hope we'll get at least one Enlightened Radiant per order (possibly barring Bondsmith), so we can see what they all do. Seeing as we have confirmation that the Fused Surgebind, not Voidbind, I don't find this particularly likely. Again, I disagree with the premise, Renarin's lightweaving seems to be the ball of hindsight. I really feel like Re-Shephir can't be made to align with any order other than Lightweaver, she's described both as a really twisted creationspren and as having been trapped by someone who really understood her, a Lightweaver. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't be the rough Lightweaver counterpart based on that. That's an interesting idea, no idea how it'd work or anything, but definitely not something I'd have thought of. Oh, I definitely think that this general direction is correct, too much seems to line up too well. I might disagree with the exact details, but that's what spurs a lot of discussion, it wouldn't be a ton of fun if we all just blandly agreed on everything. ¤_¤

Yes they did, Venli's crew note that all the Radiants who are sleeping uneasily are Windrunners, no other orders show any signs of being anything other than out cold. Before or after he bonded Syl? ¤_¤

Because if Dalinar's going to Ascend to Honor and Odium, there can't be a Vessel for Odium. Why would that free him? At best it voids the deal, but that won't let him just decide to be free now. If you enter into a contract saying that if I win a coin flip I owe you a year's income, but if you win the same coinflip I owe you a year's income and a new car, the coin landing upright doesn't let me demand ten years' income from you, it just means that nothing happens, unless we make a new agreement an flip a coin again. I think that is simply a combination of Herald power and experience, Honor's protections weakening/failing and possibly his temporary Connection to the Stormfather moments prior. The suppressor didn't work as well against the Windrunners as a group though and Navani's apparently fine at Bondsmith level one even before they flush the Voidlight. Add to that that the Sibling themself says that "Honor's Truest Surge" (Adhesion) might still work, and that seems more of a "the defenses aren't made to deal with Adhesion"-thing not a "Kaladin is weird"-thing. As for the Thrill, he doesn't glorify war and combat the same as many other Alethi, so he might just be naturally unreceptive and his bond probably pushes that even further. As for Kaladin being "of Tanavast" when others only get called "of Honor," who the heck knows? ¤_¤

As the currency in Shadesmar seems to be Investiture, primarily Stormlight in the Rosharan subastral, the gems themselves seem to simply be a storage medium. As Stormlight doesn't naturally enter Shadesmar, unlike the Physical, but still dissipates over time, perfect or near-perfect gems are simply the only easy way to reliably store it for later. It's like someone investing in a fridge or freezer in an economy based on food, it makes your money keep longer. ¤_¤

Clearly capital-A Ascend can mean multiple things, as Dalinar has demonstrably not evaporated. Whatever happened he clearly did not become the Vessel of a Shard. That may be so, but I think we'd need to know by what method(s) before we can base anything solid on it. That sounds plausible, by WoB you can become the Vessel of an Avatar, IIRC, though it's hard. That makes sense, I feel like the Radiants could possibly be seen as each embodying a kind or facet of Honor, possibly something to do with Honor's Purposes. Protection, Justice, Restraint, Care, Truth, (Self-)Acceptance (maybe?), Thoughtfulness, Liberty, Reliability and Unity. (Terminology somewhat on the spot, there are probably better words.) It makes sense that any sufficiently large Splinter of Honor might take on such a Sub-intent. ¤_¤

What Ishar says during his window of clarity makes it sound like he can fix the Oathpact, not that he can teach another Bondsmith how. I'm really apprehensive at the idea of Dalinar becoming a Vessel, let alone the idea of anyone Ascending to Honor at present. I don't think anyone could Ascend to Odium without the Vessel dying or giving up the power, the first would be an extreme anticlimax given the events of RoW, the second feels incredibly out of character. I don't feel like Shards can remain credible threats if they can just be stolen from their Vessels by mortals. I also feel that there's nothing to adequately explain how there is a Shard of Honor to Ascend to, as it's been Splintered. Finally, given other events known to have happened in the cosmere, I find the idea of a Dishardic Ascension to be too unoriginal. I find the idea unsatisfying on those grounds. ¤_¤

Eh, I'm not so sure. I could definitely see them having hoarded some, sure. Given what we see in Lasting Integrity, I find it more likely that lots of them have gone to the spren over the years. It might also be a case of people holding onto perfect and semi-perfect gems if they happen to get them, rather than letting them circulate in the economy. A sphere that holds Light for years or even longer is just darn convenient, so if you're well to do enough to not need to spend it, it might just stay with you. Most likely all of these are true to some extent, in addition to perfect gems being naturally scarce. ¤_¤

Do the Fused not have Adhesion because they don't accept it, or do they not accept it because they don't have it? She also said that Surges exist because things must fall to the ground. I'm not sure the lady older than the idea of science, who may well have gone a bit off over the millennia and who may be spouting Odium propaganda is an entirely trustworthy source. Odium has a vested interest in convincing his servants that Adhesion isn't really a Surge, it both legitimises the Fused and delegitimises the Radiants and guards against any Fused asking why none of them have it when the Radiants do. Adhesion is the Surge of pressure and vacuum, both of which are very real things. I mean, by my theory he doesn't even need to replicate it. And even if that is true, why isn't there a tenth brand of Fused using a power of pure Odium then? The number of Braize. Yelig-nar seemingly can only empower one person at a time and judging by Amaram they operate at nowhere near Bondsmith levels of power. There's also quite the difference between one spren-humanoid pair, where half is likely to die from the bond before they can really start exploring what they can do, and potentially hundreds of Fused who can master their Surge over thousands of years. On top of that there's the suggestion that what Yelig-nar does only mimics the majority of Surges, which might make Adhesion a non-issue. Lastly, each Unmade seems to be its own thing, why not ask why they can't all enlighten spren? They are unique and distinct, possibly crafted to each be a specific tool. They do? He's not the one who could apparently cause whole settlements to flee without even showing up in person or the one who prosecuted a war. Yelig-nar seems akin to a great swordsman, a terror to face in combat to be sure, but lacking in reach. Here's a question, during the unification of Alethkar, who was more dangerous, Dalinar or Gavilar? The easy answer is Dalinar "let's get you Plate so your impossible feats in combat won't make the rest of us look bad" Kholin, but Gavilar is the one who could tell him where to fight. The swordsman will not win you a war, but a spymaster might. The swordsman is far less dangerous than severak people he could humiliate in single combat, a general commanding loyal troops, a king declaring war or a master poisoner making sure that a power shift occurs smoothly are all people with far more devastating potential. Keeping a single being who doesn't seem able to use his powers without a host in line is also far easier than multiple people with free access to their power. I mean, a large part of my original post in this topic lays out exactly why I think Rayse would not want a Bondsmith-alike. ¤_¤

Well, humanity is known to have suffered immense losses in the Desolations, sometimes to the tune of nine out of every ten in a kingdom, so they probably didn't have the manpower. Add to that that even in the present there are largely unmapped and, de facto, unclaimed bits of Roshar, like the Shattered Plains before the Alethi got there. You have populations that have just survived a brutal war, seemingly catapulted back to the stone age if Taln's mantra is anything to go by, the first order of business isn't to spend all energy and resources to hunt down your enemies here. Given the surviving population they probably didn't have the manpower and resources to find them all, even if they wanted to. ¤_¤

I was moreso thinking of the moment a bit later, after Lift's hugged him and he's realised he's failed, when he just zooms off into the sky with no visible power source. To me the quoted section also doesn't read as actually saying he took in the Light in the sphere. I'd also think that even a broam couldn't hold enough light to be consistent with the description of "bursting afire." Mind, I don't think your idea is wrong, I just think that the Heralds still have some direct Connection to Honor's power. This Connection is presumably cut by the whole trapping process, leading to the decomposition of the CS. That I can definitely believe. Ah, I misunderstood then. With all the shade I've been throwing on Rayse in this thread I guess it's only fair to call out Koravari as well. I would not have seen me calling her an absolute dingus a few days ago. Then again, she seems to have a habit of engaging in stupidly high-stakes gambling. From Rayse warning Amaram that she tried to do the Yelig-nar thing but failed, it would seem she had a fatal case of Yelig-nar-itis. Rayse doesn't have much reason to lie about it to the present company, so I think we can conclude she wasn't killed by something else. Right, conjoiners are typically made with rubies, reversers are typically made with amethysts (and I know this isn't a rule, just practice, which annoys me a lot). On the Radiant diagram each order is placed opposite another, Truthwatcher-Bondsmith, Windrunner-Lightweaver, etc. The chart is also colour-coded using the polestones. Dustbringer (ruby) sits opposite Willshaper (amethyst), if both "opposing" polestones can hold a flamespren, then logically a windspren would go in sapphire and garnet. This is also why I've theorised elsewhere that an inverted version of the suppressor fabrial would use sapphires or a mix of sapphires and garnets. Thougj I do have one question, what's the singer gemheart made of? It must be a polestone, judging by its properties. It must also allow a lot of kinds of spren inside it. Hmm, that is a good question. Double-checking the essay it's very vague. It only makes reference to Surgebinding and there's the mention of storms, but that seems to be about Highstorms, given they are described as shaping life on Roshar over millennia and being guessed to predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. So, probably before the Everstorm or working with established information soon after the arrival of the Everstorm. Given its complete non-discussion of singers, while mentioning humans bonding spren, referencing Ryshadium and talking about the megafauna, this points to writing about a human-dominated planet. It really can't be post-True Desolation. Then the question is, when's the Ars Arcana from? Yeeeah, I think that's got to be one of those WoBs where Brandon just got the information wrong, either because it's something that's changed since he came up with it (like Mistborn's silver/tin conundrum), because he answered the question he thought he was being asked or because he made a mistake in the moment (like Oathbringer being an Honorblade). Or the artist could have gotten incorrect instructions, though it feels like they should have someone making sure that the art is consistent with what it's meant to depict. As for Ash, creationspren can mimic things, so that's a possible out. Though we shouldn't need justifications like that. Yeah, it's not super helpful that we have three portraits that have the spren vague orange thing, Chana, Taln and Ishar. It took me quite a while to understant that the ones in Ishar's picture were meant to be gloryspren and not rising embers. Then I think that terminology difference might be a good explanation. That tracks with being forbidden to do it, hopefully we'll see in the future. I did a little thinking on this and came to two realisations. Labeling Mandras luckspren seems very arbitrary and we never see them pop up around people who experience positive coincidences or anything like that. Then I realised that it might come from seeing them around people who had experienced bad falls and such, making daring leaps and falling short, falling from a high window, that kind of thing, but coming out of it "miraculously" unharmed. People experiencing similar things to Rysn and the spren becoming associated with that kind of luck. The other thought is that there must be something in music that attracts musicspren, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten that name, so what's common between music and horses? Well, as you know if you've heard a horse run, there's a distinct rhythm to it ba-da-bam ba-da-bam ba-da-bam, so I think that musicspren might more accurately be termed "rhythmspren" or "beatspren." They're not attracted to music as such, just a quality of the music, one you also find in horses. ¤_¤

That seems very plausible, especially with Zahel's description of the Fused being Connected to and feeding off Odium. I do want to point out that the link between Honor and the Heralds seems to still be there in some form. We see Nale burst alight at the end of Edgedancer, after all, and he doesn't seem to ever pull light out of gems around him. Yes, I can see no other thing that could be. Nice catch. It also makes a lot of sense, given what Shard's involved, that we'd get a CS that automatically self-sustains. Fair fair Yeah, I must have seen a theory about it or gotten mixed up on a WoB or something, I had gotten into my head that it was a similar situation to words like chicken and mink, that they say heliodor when it's actually citrine. And of course I had no reason to doubt this, because I knew I'd seen a WoB about it, one that just turned out to not exist once I wanted to prove it to someone. And it's possible I'm entirely off base. Hopefully someone will ask Brandon for clarification, just like we have gotten for diamonds. Yep, UV fades amethysts, so it's a bad idea to keep them in direct sunlight. Oh, if only I could have forseen this development! I might have phrased that badly, I did mean to say how the crystal looks to the naked eye, not the crystal structure. You have however given me the image of Kaladin constantly having a jewellers' loupe on him at all times. Oh, I don't dispute that. Tanavast also talks about plural Dawnshards in one of the visions, in the context of humanity's fight against the Voidbringers, so at least two of four have to have been present on Roshar within the time there's been humans there. However, even if all four ended up there, it's still four things somewhere on all Roshar, and while storytelling contrivances are fine, unlikely things happen after all, doing it too much just makes it come off as contrived and unsatisfying. Add to that that we've already had one character who happened to find a Dawnshard and reavealing that another character totally did the same thing could easily come across as a retread of the same story. (I also want to know which absolute dingus thought that keeping any Dawnshard on Roshar, the place with Investiture leaking out of every crack, was a good idea.) That makes sense, I could even see the Ummade in particular being even worse Vessels, if Sja-anat's "half-existence" is in any way indicative of the Unmade as a whole. Oh, that's fair, I hadn't even considered the whole "lots of spren float" thing, I was mostly thinking about how a lashing isn't really visually impressive beyond the object glowing and falling in the wrong direction. Compare something like setting the ground on fire, growing plants in seconds, making things suddenly be other things and large-scale Lightweaving, for instance. Everything goes HERE now! Oh yeah, this was mostly an aside from me realising that if Yelig-nar is a (quick) death-sentence having Amaram bond him there makes no sense, so I shoehorned it in. Yeah, since we've not actually seen the aftermath of the full process (how dare Rock save Kaladin's life and get in the way of science! ) we don't really know. I don't find the idea that Yelig-nar can temporarily pilot the resultant amethyst puppet entirely without merit, though he'd probably be quite limited when doing so, possibly determined by how recently the host died and how valid any residual Connection was. Like, I feel like if he could just be an amethyst Terminator, he'd be an amethyst Terminator, so presumably a host is needed for peak performance in some way. Yeah, I'm not saying that it'd be easy, but in the case of Nergaoul it also involves Dalinar "I am a Highstorm that walks like a man" Kholin and his Bondsmith shenanigans. If there's anything that could get a spren into a mismatched gemstone it's Bondsmith shenanigans, IMO. Add to that that Dalinar seemingly is to Nergaoul as a raging fire is to flamespren and I don't find it unlikely at all that it could have been stuck in a non-optimal gem. Hmm, windspren should naturally go in sapphire and garnet, because flamespren go in ruby and amethyst. Entirely fair I suppose so. Seems finicky, but not impossible. I'd say it comes down to how exactly the hybrid abilities work, but I can see it being possible. OK, that's fair. I've also picked up on that, but it's inconclusive as we barely get to see any other healing from the perspective of the person being healed. I've always felt that Renarin's Surges were "twisted" in a more Spiritual direction. In any case I now have a sounder foundation to prop up my beliefs about Enlightened spren and the people who bond them, which is great. (Also, in the moment I was not thinking about how Adolin gets to see perfect!Adolin when healed, so I might have gotten ahead of myself.) Yep, that tracks. Neato. Right, I just wanted to be sure I was understanding you. I find that somewhat doubtful, if a third set of Surge expressions was known Khriss wouldn't need to speculate in the Roshar essay. Ah Probably My one problem here is that the official Herald art seems to have the corresponding Plate/cousinspren in it and Nale is surrounded by blue somethings, which at least matches the colour of luckspren, even if there's only a single one that's arrowhead shaped and not just a glob. I can't remember if Szeth gives a description of the spren he sees, so is it possible that it's simply an east/west terminology difference? Oh, I was more so suggesting that it'd grant a form able to do so, but given your example it probably wouldn't. Forms with Surgebinding might be a thing of True spren, or it's something to do with how the Dawnsingers were apparently not allowed (all) Surges, going by the Eila Stele. Oh, yeah, they aren't totally bonkers, especially once you start getting metaphorical. But as you yourself point out, why musicspren? So we can tell that there's not always gonna be a clear relation between spren type and what the Rosharan fauna get out of it. Maybe the singers are a bit more consistent than I thought though, interesting. Hope you enjoy. ¤_¤

Oh yeah, I double checked this and he seems to supply three distinct categories. Weak: kill the body a second time and the soul's toast, presumably also needing regular infusions of Investiture. Returned seem to go here. Middle: needs regular infusions of Investiture, but will persist if body's killed. Heralds possibly go here. Strong: will persist if re-killed and can't effectively be starved of Investiture. Zahel seems to peg the Fused as going here. Hmm, that's not the impression I got, but it seems reasonable. Hmm, this might just have been an idea that wormed its way in from somewhere but that's never actually been confirmed as true. I'm quite certain I saw this claim being made somewhere at some point, but it might have been someone's unsourced headcanon or something. Happy to help. I was convinced that Dalinar did something Adhesion-y when he was wrestling, and thankfully I wasn't far off. Yep, fair fair. Thanks I mostly meant to imply that you might be knowledgable about these forms of quartz. Oh, I'm totally on board with this. (I even spent some time convinved there was a WoB that Rosharan heliodors were actually citrine, alas no such WoB seemed to exist when I actually brought up this "fact" to someone.) Hmm, I'm not sure it's possible to be quite as hardline here as about diamonds. The Rosharan definition of diamond is simple to work with, if it's not clear, it's not a diamond. You can easily tell that someting's not clear on sight. I'm not sure how able people would be to easily see that that one's an amethyst, because it's within these shades of purple, while this one's just a worthless not-an-amethyst. There's also the fact that, if Roshar amethyst is the same as Earth amethyst (i.e. the best quartz), sunlight fades the crystal. So I think that a fairly wide range of hues have to be permissable, podsibly barring the really deep ones that are edging towards black and probably excluding anything borderline clear. I'll grant the possibility, though I'm not sure how easy it'd be to judge at a glance. Things like crystal shape might of course bias you one way or another as well. How dare you be so reasonable about it?! Yeah, I agree that that's probably the best course of action, I don't think we can come much closer on textual evidence alone. And is that not the beauty of this kind of exchange? Oh! I see you now. Yes, that makes sense. Adding to that that she seems to have developed new abilities concurrently with other wielders of Adhesion, it seems very likely that she goes in the Windrunner spot. This also handily alleviates needing to find a separate reason for her new abilities. I've seen the suggestion that she used a Dawnshard, but find that unlikely due to their supposed scarcity. If she simply got access to more applications of her existing power, just as Melishi did, there's no need for a separate mechanism to explain it. I think we've found something here! To echo your same sentiment, I think I get you now. Yeah, I could see that being the case, Gravitation doesn't seem to have much of a visual flaire. The idea that one of the Unmade is fighting humanity mostly because they got her nature wrong is quite amusing. Just to add a bit on Yelig-nar, Rayse's treatment of Amaram implies that the whole Yelig-nar-ification is survivable and even possible to live with long-term. At this point Amaram has asked Rayse if he'll get to kill Dalinar one day, and Rayse has said that he'll grant that if he doesn't have Dalinar kill Amaram first. Assuming Rayse is being coherent and not just spouting villain dialogue, it sounds like he wants Amaram as a pawn, not that he wants Amaram dead. Amaram has also delivered Nightblood's sheath and Rayse has told one of the Fused to provide Amaram the housing for Yelig-nar. Then he tells Amaram to swallow it and that doing so will give him the power he was promised, but cautions him to try to control the one that follows and that queen Aesudan failed to do so. Now, I don't think Rayse is terribly smart, but I don't think he's throw-away-a-full-Shardbearer-for-no-reason stupid. Rayse isn't even anticipating a proper battle, Rayse is putting on a show, delivering a crushing victory to the singers to embolden them, subverting his main enemy to lead them. Why would he throw away a tool that not only cuts, but cuts extremely well, on a theatrical victory? I get the feeling that controling Yelig-nar is definitely possible. Not necessarily that Amaram could do it, possibly if he'd been given a less stressful environment to adjust in, but definitely that it can be done. Oh, I definitely agree that they have favourites. I suppose we'll have to ask Brandon about how possible it is to put a spren in a gem they don't like. I definitely think you could put any spren in any polestone, but that it'd be more or less difficult depending on the spren and gem. Fair I think you got those backwards, IIRC, nightform is said to see the future. Otherwise, yes, that makes sense. I seem to be a bit stuck in the idea that Renarin's future sight is a product of Illumination (or his Resonance), being consistent with my own theorising be darned. This observation has also had the happy coincidence of providing the first semi-solid case I've seen for Renarin's powers being entirely Voidish in nature. As someone who's disliked the idea of 50/50 Renarin since the Oathbringer days this makes me very happy. It makes more sense to me that Enlightening a spren would change how all powers manifest, rather than just some, just like tinting a lens a certain colour makes the entire image take on that colour. It also makes me think that I've put too much emphasis on the Realm-transgressing moment of death for how Moelach's power works. The base spark of Fortune should always be present, it might just be that it can be artificially made to have a greater effect at the already trancendent moment of death and/or that Moelach can more easily touch a being in that moment. As in Cultivation derived? Hear! Hear! That is true, additionally there's also gravityspren, which we don't know if it's synonymous with either gravitationspren or luckspren. I hadn't caught that they like Skybreakers. Yeah, it feels like those should grant "skyform," like a shanay-im without the baggage, but then, what spren makes what form seems rather arbitrary at times. That is true and it lets me bring up a point about the singers: they are biologically made to bond spren, that might give them something of an advantage. Or it might be entirely meaningless. Oh, you wonderful people! This is absolutely delightful! I didn't see what was hiding in my own theory. As someone who's been personally pro-Sja-anat since Oathbringer you've managed to find even more reason for me to want to see the rest of the orders of "Knights Enlightened." This is such a delicious catch, this means I can start speculating with something solid to go on. Solid in that it's at least two assumptions deep, but the first assumption is based on something we know. I'll take it! Aww, thanks for the kind words! Your thread is in fact what got me on the Unmade/Radiant matching bandwagon, so if you hadn't started that neither of us would be here. So thank you for that, this entire thread and all the amazing interactions in it is partially to your credit. Apparently so! ¤_¤

Of course, my interpretation handily sidesteps that whole issue, as I think that a Fused is effectively a singer soul, modified to carry the correct markers for a specific form, as a way to exploit singer biology, the form coded for being what grants Surgebinding (this is likely a post facto modification, what with the whole "the Fused were dangerous even before they learned to command the Surges," though it might also mean that they didn't know how to use what they had at first.) Beyond the discrete instance(s) of tampering by Odium, nothing's rushing into any cracks in the soul. The Fused is basically a singer who's their own spren, in the standard singer sense, and seeing as having a form-spren in her gemheart in no way stopped Venli bonding Timbre, I don't think that's an issue. Now, I think that it's possible a Fused could not have a Nahel spren in their gemheart, what with the whole "I cannot share my dwelling," but that's a wholly separate issue. Oh, would you look at that, neat. Thanks for finding confirmation. It made sense, for instance the Song of Secrets would have a lot of stanzas of filler, but it's always nice to have concrete evidence. ¤_¤

Oops, forgot to reply to this. I do think it has to hold power over that Surge, in a way, being of the same stuff as a cultivationspren and all. But I'm not sure it has enough power over it to use it independent of a power source. Though I'll freely admit that these lifespren are the biggest conundrum here. I do feel like there has to be a reason why we don't see greatshells bonded to windspren. Perhaps the cousinspren are just as capable to command both their Surges, but naturally more inclined towards the primary? Proper stimulus could still cause them to express the other, as seen in our proto-fabrial. I guess I feel like too much here is likely to be right, so I'm more inclined to think that one glaring anomaly means there's a gap in my knowledge, rather than my entire system being wrong. Oh, so it is. -Rhythm of War, chapter 109 I still don't think Leshwi's dispensing cosmere wisdom here and the way it's written makes the actual meaning ambiguous. I'm reading this as something like Venli saying these spren have given them a second chance, offered a fresh start and Leshwi countering that she's too far gone for that. So I don't see this as an explanation of how there's a magic rules reason why she can't. In fact, how could she know that, True spren have apparently not given singers the time of day for millennia at this point? ¤_¤

OK, that's a fair distinction. He could still have offered something like "I will do what I can to restrain those sane enough to understand and punish those who step out of line." Which could have been as close of an accomodation with what Dalinar wanted as he could manage without finding himself in an impossible situation. But he just shouts about it being impossible. Huh, you know, I'd gotten the impression it was the other way around. I thought that was a Nalthian design flaw. Welp, yet another reason to re-read RoW then. That I can believe of the guy who would (allegedly) flatten a city to get at Hoid and was petty enough to break the statue of Taln specifically. Rayse is both petty and such a huge drama queen, honestly, I can see why he used to be friends with Hoid, they're both more operatic than a Dracula-era vampire. Take the example with Leshwi, the fact that he got orders to the troops advancing on the last stand implies he could have just popped in to say she's utterly screwed, but he chooses to relay this message through song instead. I think I can solve half of that conundrum for you: -Oathbringer, chapter 16 I'd say that Dalinar gluing Kadash to the floor qualifies for Physical manifestation. I also find it likely that that means the same is true of Tension, but I don't think we've seen a single unequivocal use of tension yet, so who the heck knows... Ah, I couldn't remember who else was active in... whichever thread that was. I'm better at remembering, say, minor quotes from fantasy stories far better than I remember what was said to whom when. Though I remember interacting with you, Frustration, LTT and a couple others quite a lot recently, I'm hard-pressed to recall who was active in which thread. And of course people also read threads without contributing to them, making it even harder to know who's seen what. OK, I think I get your terminology then. Ohh, interesting. I could definitely see the Heralds having unrestricted* access to their given Surges, being actively able to utilise Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations of their powers much more readily than standard Radiants, either from being prototypes, from getting it through a direct subscription to Honor or from some combination thereof. *Barring anything Honor chose to hang a Danger! sign on. This WoB: Might also imply that the Heralds could all have functioned at something like Radiant Bondsmith levels of power, which feels like it'd even the odds a little bit when they're just ten people. Now, whether this means that they had access to stonger mostly Physical manifestations of power or Bondsmith-style "complete" Surges, who knows. We are in agreement then. As you might know (as that lovely stone in you picture is an ametrine, no?) amethyst comes in a variety of hues. Picture under spoiler Amethyst is also the only purple among the polestones, aka the gems any Rosharan would know the colour of, so what else would he ID a purple crystal as on sight? Or are you mostly talking about that Amaram's amethysts (Amathysts?) are described as violet, not purple? Heh, how differently we humans think. Once you say it it sounds obvious, doesn't it. I had not thought of this, I like it a lot! I'm not sure where it all fits, but I'll get there. You've just given me a puzzle piece to treasure. Well, Jezrien seems to have always been the leader of the Heralds, at least in civic matters, Ishar seems more the religious/spiritual leader, the high priest to Jezrien's king, if you will. Ishar seems to be the one who deals with the esoteric and arcane, while Jezrien is the leader of men. This plus his mythologised role as Herald of kings makes him slot into the role of proclaiming victory better than Ishar, IMO. And I can also see Ishar as being the one who most frequently spoke directly to Tanavast, though that is rather a guess along his apparent theme than anything concrete. I don't think it's a contradiction, even here I phrase it as "mainly" being a product of Gravitation, though I'm not surprised if I come off as a little inconsistent, I think my line of reasoning in the original post was more hardline, one Unmade, one Surge. I still stand by the idea of a primary Surge for both the Unmade and the Radiants, but letting the Unmade be more fluid probably lines them up better with the cousinspren, lets in some wiggle-room for theorising and brings it all better into line with Brandon saying that it's not quite one-to-one. In this case I'd also still stand by my assesment that it's odd that an Unmade whose power is mainly a manifestation of Gravitation would have a byname that brings to mind the Surge of Division. Ohhh, that is a very cool concept, I don't know if it's true, or even likely, but I like it. I would definitely not be dissapointed if this were the case. Might also explain why Amaram seems to use the powers individually, it's possible he can only spoof one Surge at a time. I don't read it that way, to me it sounds like he can mimic voices and, usually, kills his hosts, but nothing there implies he puppets the body. Well, no. But I think it works as a trap because it's a (sufficiently large) perfect gemstone, not because it's a ruby. Also, the way it's talked about suggests to me that it's the only perfect gem in the whole reserve, so if it being a ruby was important to being able to hold Nergaoul, Team Honor got exceedingly lucky. That is a really interesting take, yes. Oh, I definitely believe that there's more than ten kinds of forms of power, so overlapping Surges is no problem to me. Nightform and smokeform, IIRC, are both candidates for different expressions of Illumination. "Predicting what will be" and "for hiding and slipping 'tween men" both sound plausibly like variants of Illumination. I'm also wholly on board with decayform using an expression of Division, just one specialised to break things down while my guess is stormform messes with molecular bonds. (It's also my hope that we'll see Skybreakers flinging lightning around, what would be more appropriately termed breaking the sky?) I mean, her saying "my soul belongs too long to another" might be a more poetic way of saying "there's no way a spren would want someone like me, who served Odium for millennia," or "I've been on this path too long to be forgiven." IIRC, she says this when Venli suggests leaving the conflict, not at Narak, though I might have misremembered. That sounds more like vocalising the Sunk Cost fallacy than revealing cosmere mechanics to me. ¤_¤

OK, that part's fair, I had not considered the ones that are insane beyond comprehending. To be fair, I don't think that an agreement in good faith would put the fault on Odium if those that are too far gone to understand disobeyed. Just like we don't expect people incapable of comprehending the law to be able to follow it properly. They'd also be far less of a problem without the Fused who can think pushing the normal singers to give themselves up for them. Leshwi imples that the soldiers advancing on them when her faction and the humans prepare a final stand got their orders directly from Rayse. She says that what they're singing is a clear sign that Odium wants her to know she'll be tortured and all that. Yes, is this not what you were suggesting was a viable option in your earlier post? Where do we see that? I can't remember too much major interaction with Shards happening. I will say that I 100% believe that Rayse's threat to Turash was to do exactly that, "reclaim that which gives you persistent life" is hard to read any other way. ¤_¤

It's heavily implied, almost too heavily I'd say. I'm honestly worried Brandon won't be able to surprise us at the contest, simply because every outcome is expected. We also don't know what the results would be, does that mean the contract is Null and Void? No clause was fullfilled, so it's possible it'd remain on the table. Why should it stop being in play unless fulfilled or superseded? An amusing occurence that could leave both sides in breach of the agreement, as they are no longer able to send champions the specified time. There's also the question of how one forces a draw in a contest to the death. Unless both champions die in the exact same instant of course, but that seems hard to pull off. And if it's all in good faith, as Rayse implies, then things like Dalinar's forces attacking Odium's champion shouldn't count against him as long as they were ordered not to, and any deliberate machinations to make the other side attack your champion should come back to you, so it'd be hard to engineer a genuine breach of contract. ¤_¤

Let's see if I get this straight, your analogy is that I can either make a delivery, say, a letter, myself, send it by mail or leave it on my desk? Personal delivery being the old method seen with Lezian at the end of RoW, mail being the Everstorm and on my desk being Odium reclaiming his Investiture from a Fused? If this is the case, why does Rayse say he can't hold the Fused back? They're not negotiating the letter of the law here, they're negotiating the spirit. Rayse saying he can't hold them back can't be true if he can tell them "stay on Braize or else." Rayse seems unable to excert that kind of influence, so this doesn't work to me. A bit of clarification on this, you might notice that this does not sound like what I was originally claiming about Fused/Odium-granted Surgebinding. I had not developed this idea before, but find it elegantly simple, as well as fitting with my understanding of Rayse's character and letting him be even stringier with his Investiture. It also gives me the opportunity to call Rayse a lazy hack, so that's a plus. ¤_¤

Well, by his saying "I was never Truthless" and the context he says it in, his status as Truthless seems to hinge on his having lied, or been untruthful. He now has seen evidence of that what he claimed, that got him branded as Truthless, was in fact true, making him definitionally not Truthless. His being Truthless is based on a false conviction and seems to be mostly self-enforced and heavily based in Shin culture and religion, he was convinced the Shin leaders were right and that he was wrong, but once he knew that he'd been wrongfully accused it all fell apart. Being falsely convicted of a crime does not make you guilty of said crime. Shin society also easily reads as an "honour" society, in which it might be hard apply modern legal thought. To be fair, no-one seems to be enforcing his punishment. He's also trapped in an unwinnable situation, he can either serve a punishment that he knows is wrongfully inflicted on him for the rest of his life or try to appeal to a system that's already condemned him and would probably punish him further as he'd need to violate his status as Truthless to even attempt an appeal (unless his master ordered him to or, possibly, gave him permission.) He'd also be hit with even more cognitive dissonance than he already is if he kept to his Truthlessness in spite of it all, because then he'd know that he has a choice. There's also the question if Truthless is a legal verdict or a social humiliation and ostracism kinda thing. Or, given how much time is spent on explaning what being Truthless means for Szeth's soul, a religious thing. If it's a religious rather than civil verdict, the morality of the conviction might actually be directly relevant to its legality, a bit like you might be suspicious of a Catholic excommunication if you find out that the Pope who issued it is a heretic. Seen in a religious context both Szeth's deciding that the verdict doesn't apply and Nale's acceptance thereof makes sense. If the verdict wasn't valid from the start Szeth isn't at fault, but he thought he was, and Nale praises him for holding to the mores and rules he was convinced were right, which makes it clear that Szeth's conduct is important here, as he doesn't blame Szeth for all the crimes other people had him commit, even though he should be guilty of them, having never been Truthless. Yeahhhh, Szeth is not in a good place mentally in... the Stormlight Archive, honestly. End of Words of Radiance he's really started to crack though. I will say this for him, once he comes to terms with that he's not Truthless, doesn't need to keep fighting Kaladin, etc., he has a really good character moment, expressing agency and a will of his own in a brilliant climax for the character, chosing to stop fighting and let himself die. Which Nale promptly ruins by ressurecting him, but Szeth also gets points there for calling Nale out on it. ¤_¤

But this is a threat made after the Everstorm became a thing. The same Everstorm that Rayse says will let the Fused be reborn without him. If the threat is about stopping his being reborn it's a bit like threatening to lock the door when you've not yet finished installing the walls. I'd also argue that persistent life sounds more like a term for continual existence, while something like recurrent life would be indicative of continual rebirth. This sounds reasonable, assuming I'm understang you correctly. Am I correct in assuming that you think bonding an Unmade would give access to a complete/fuller version of their associated Surge(s) just like how bonding a Bondsmith spren seems to grant access to a complete/fuller version of Tension and Adhesion (Spiritual, Cognitive and Physical aspects)? (I don't know if you've seen mine and Frustration's big terminology disagreement here, in short, I don't think that there's a distinction into Voids and Surges, but rather that the Surges have multiple forms of expression, which is what I tried to explain in the ground work section.) As for the bit on gloryspren, that makes sense, though I'd quibble that the non-Bondsmith Radiants dabble in non-Physical aspects of their Surges, but I get what you're saying. And to be fair, standard Radiants seem to mostly do Physical things, so everything in this section is terminology quibbling and not disagreement. As a thought experiment, that I hope can easily determine if we're actually thinking the same way, imagine you had an honorspren at the level of power of the Unmade/Stormfather/Nightwatcher/Sibling, would bonding that spren grant you Adhesion and Gravitation at the same level as bonding a Bondsmith spren grants you Tension and Adhesion? I think the only time we've seen this is with the listener farming method, which is why I had the caveat of not induced from the outside in the explanation of my second post. The farming method uses Light and a stimulus, I feel very inclined to label it a proto-fabrial, personally. I'm not so sure that this is a strong correlation, though I do see where both you and @Zoey are coming from with this. If we saw the influence of other Unmade, or spren in general, causing crystal growth in various colours I'd be more inclined ascribe it significance. There's also the fact that on what we know as the Voidbinding chart, the Windrunner position has a purple tone to it as well. Thanks for the fact-check, I couldn't remember that the type of gem was given and further had no idea that it'd changed, different print runs I assume? That is an interesting angle I hadn't considered, I took all of her noted abilities during the False Desolation in the category "Mishram's suprising new powers," which meant I did not include them for consideration, as they all seemed Bondsmith-y to me. This is also why I've lumped her in with Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish, even though we actually know of stuff that she's capable of. The abilities she displayed during the False Desolation are talked about as if they're something new, so her powerset before then is as much an unknown as those of the other two. Thematically Mishram during the False Desolation seems to act as proxy-Odium, in much the same way that Dalinar is proxy-Honor in the present, aligning with the "office" of Bondsmith. In an earlier draft I actually made this connection myself, but abandoned it. I don't think it needs to be untrue, it just gets a bit weird when you work in a paradigm where this would mean that the power of Dustmother should mainly be a manifestation of Gravitation, and not the more intuitive Division. When I originally went down this rabbit hole (piece of wet slime-hole?) I actually did place Ashertmarn here, describing its influence as a mental "slicking." Giving it further thought I've found that insufficient, Shallan's experiences in Kholinar seem to point to something active behind it, people's inhibitions aren't just lowered, there seems to be an active push for them to take the plunge and join the revel. Thus I find Abrasion does not seem to account for it entirely and have placed Ashertmarn as using a Surge known to actively change things, while I see Abrasion as passively enabling change. This could of course be one of the things that make up the "not one to one" part of the WoB. As a final point here, I'd peg it not as complacency but hedonism and indulgence, but, wishing to maintain intellectual honesty, I will note that it can still be a thematic negative to the Edgedancers as the results of selfish indulgence and only caring for yourself, as well as the trance-like state we see from Shallan while infiltrating the revel, are counter to the Edgedancer theme of caring and remembering, being wholly short-sighted and self-centered. That is really interesting, I think I can see what you're getting at, even though it seems your post has lost some words (unless the spoiler box is only supposed to have three words in it) Having not read Dragonsteel Prime that's not an angle I could have taken, so that's really great imput! If I'm understanding you correctly, I could totally see this being true, even if I prefer my Adhesion solution at present. And thank's for linking the excellently named @LewsTherinTelescope's thread, I'd missed it completely and it was both interesting in its own right and helped me grasp what you were getting at. I will hazard that I think "only" might be the wrong word here, especially after the extra passes that debating it like this leads to, and I'd say that "primarily" might be a better way to phrase it. That is, I'm open to giving a little more wiggle room, for instance some aspects of Unmade influence might actually be similar to the Reverse Lashing, though possibly with a heavily skewed ratio of Surges. But yes, I think that each Unmade heavily leans on just one Surge, if they're not outright resticted to one. Well, there is the bit where he's said to have broken into Nohadon's chancery and murdered all his scribes, though of course we don't know if they differentiated Yelig-nar from his host historically. That is an interesting observation, I'm not entirely sure about it though. The one perfect gem in the Thaylen gemstone reserve happened to be the right kind to capture Nergaoul? To me this strains disbelief. On the other hand, if it's correct Team Honor got very lucky indeed. I'm not sure if you mean that just as Connection to a spren gives a Radiant Surgebinding, so does Connection to Odium give a Fused Surgebinding. If that is the case, shouldn't Leshwi have lost her Surgebinding by the time they arrive at Narak? In any case, my take is that the Fused carry the power with them. We know that each fused must carry with them the "code" that makes the singer physiology grant a certain form, as Fused "cannot share [their] dwelling" and each Brand seems tied to a specific form, implying that they act as the spren granting said form as well. I could either see access to a particular Surge being "imprinted" on their soul or, more likely, being a hack using singer biology. I have elsewhere advanced the notion that singer biology has some expression of the Surge of Progresson built in, to me that's the simplest explanation for how the forms work, when adopting a new form the singer's body is Grown, based on a pattern determined by the spren bonded. We also know from Venli's chat with the mountain that the Dawnsingers could wield at least Cohesion and the simplest explanation for abilities seen from forms of power is also the Surges, if in a limited capacity, like Venli's Connection (Adhesion) and the stormforms' lightning (my current guess is a form of Division, but we know too little at this stage). To me these data point seem to point to that it's possible to have forms that grant Surges. That is, to me, the most likely mechanism behind the Fused. Their souls already carry markers for creating a form (it wouldn't exactly do to have your immortal super soldiers show up in dullform), why not make that a form that accesses a Surge? This also lets Odium get away with as little Investing as possible, he doesn't need to create a direct backdoor into Surgebinding, or build his own Surgebinding, or grant access to a theoretical Braizish Surgebinding. He just needs to make Cognitive Shadows out of this one batch, tweak them a bit so they're functional and physically able, oh, and add some markers that make them tap into an additional part of the system he's already exploiting (singer biology), letting them have magic powers, barely any effort on his part, way lower risk of getting all Invested and way less power spent because he just copied a key rather than build a house from scratch. Thank you and the same. Thanks ¤_¤