Fatikis

27 minutes ago, John203 said:

Like everyone else, a theory in all caps with far too many exclamation marks seems very buzzfeed/clickbaity.

See I'm not so old that I can't remember being young and excited. What really leads me to believe trolling is the Odin. That combined with the fact that they never bothered responding.

25 minutes ago, Athanat0s said:

As for a Lerasium spike, I can't imagine what it would steal (if it could steal something in the first place), but I'm going to say that receiving a charged Lerasium spike wouldn't leave holes in your spiritweb like a regular hemalurgical spike would. 

 

All hemalurgic god metals appear to steal any attribute. We've seen both Atium and Trellium contain many different abilties. Atium is confirmed to be a catch all. Trellium hasn't been confirmed, but so far it looks like it. 

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Part of me thinks there were 12 splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar to begin with.

12 splinters? Is there any reason for that number? 10 is significant to Roshar, and 16 is relevant to the cosmere. 12 seems a very odd number.

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Odium showed up and unmade 9, while Cultivation and Honor managed to save 3 (or perhaps Odium didn't want some of the other 3). The Night-watcher now seems like Cultivation, but how many Millennia of education did it take for the Night-watcher to become what she is?

The Nightwatcher and Stormfather seem to be learning just in the same way that the Re-Shephir, Sja-anat and Bao-ado-Misham seem to be learning. 

The unmade seem to more parallel the Heralds in my opinion. One per order excluding Bondsmiths.

I would say The Night Watcher and The Stormfather seem more like the children of Honor and Cultivation. In support of that they refer to The Sibling. I take that as a literal and not figurative sibling. Given highspren didn't exist before Honor and Cultivation I doubt their major sprens did. It is possible the spren existed in a rough state only gaining sentience from Honor and Cultivation.

23 minutes ago, Shardling89 said:

Thanks to all. I suppose the disconnect for me was the direct connection between Endowment/being a native Nalthisian as a requirement for a Returned. After all, I am beginning to feel that ANYTHING is possible in this cosmere.

It would be for sure possible for Harmony to do if he decided. He could make Wax a splinter which is basically what Returned are.

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Obviously Wax does not show any of the signs of a Nalthis Returned but I was thinking maybe since Harmony is a different shard entirely that perhaps his Returned would be somewhat different/express different traits. Especially since we see that Nalthis returned can feed off of the investiture of other planets I thought perhaps they could all have their own returned as well.

You are probably right there. If Harmony did this it would be different. You probably wouldn't be working with Divine Breath or Heightenings.

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However, I see that Wax probably never truly died. And since Harmony is a fully non splintered shard who doesn't seem to have much information regarding the other shards I doubt that he would be mimicking Endowment. Thank you all for your information.

This is the main thing here. Wax seems to have not died. Harmony may have preserved him for a bit, but he ultimately did not bring Wax back. It was an interesting thought though. It seems close to what happened to Szeths.

I honestly can't tell if this is some light trolling or serious. 

Interesting idea for sure. Cusicesh does seem like a representation of the religion. 
Sidenote: I hadn't realized before how much the Iriali seem like a scouting party.

23 minutes ago, Silverblade5 said:

It hasn't happened yet, but I'm holding out hope. Shallan x Wayne.

Wayne seems to be with MeLaan. MeLaan and Wayne work really well together.

5 minutes ago, Shardling89 said:

I have looked around and I haven't seen this question asked yet so I thought I would throw it out there. What are the chances that Waxillium Ladrian is a Returned. During Lightsong's vision whilst imprisoned he remembers dieing and being sent back as a returned. I don't know of any inclination of Wax being Returned after choosing to come back, nor do I know any specific connection between Harmony and Endowment. So I am wondering if any of you have any information that could confirm or deny this possibility would be cool. Obviously Scadrial Returned would be different than Nalthis Returned as they have different investiture. What do you guys think?

Only those with a breath can return. Wax does not have a breath. Returned is a very specific thing that only exists on Nalthis. Harmony/Scadrial would not have returned. Harmony seems to have prevented his immediate death and given him a choice. Returned actually die.

Just now, Angsos said:

minus the fanatical devotion to his hypothetical duty that caused a new desolation I hope

More of his current state at the end of Oath Bringer.

I see Miles like the current Skybreakers including the Herald. I see Wax more like Szeths.

1 hour ago, Atxk said:

I really like Lift and Szeth. All their interactions have been hilarious, they're so different, but they play off each other so well. Hope that they team up more in the future

Agreed. Nightblood fits into the team quite well also.

15 minutes ago, LarkinTyvell said:

So... I think I'm about to burst that one. I'm doing a re-read of MB era 1, and I've just got to say, that Kelsier has to be one of the most pretentious, arrogant, and opportunistic individuals in the series. Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal, and even thought that he was up there with my favorite characters, but on this read through it doesn't seem to be the case so much. Maybe I need to get through his arc in MB and SH the rest of the way, but I don't recall him growing as a character that much, and he says from the get go that he has plans to take down TLR as an added bonus for their contract to put Demoux in charge of the city with his rebellion. Sure, the words he speaks in the confrontation and the resulting Church lead some to believe that he was altruistic at the end, but it still feels like he just wanted to die and hopefully take TLR with him if he could, and "while I'm at it, let's set me up as a holy figure when I die"

Maybe they are intended as Preservation and Ruin analogues, but I'm having a hard time putting this into words as far as Preservation for Vin...

Anyway TLDR Kelsier is my least favorite character at the moment, but it changes on each re-read.

Kelsier was for sure arrogant and opportunistic, but he also for sure grew even in Mistborn alone.

His entire thing was he wanted to murder any any and all noblemen. He then let Vin convince him that maybe all of them weren't evil. Kelsier then literally saves Elend letting him know that Vin was safe.

Kelsier did want to die, but he also refused to do it until he could dismantle the corrupt system. The holy figure bit seems mostly inspired by Sazed. Kelsier was amazed by the people that had stood up to TLR, and religion seemed to be what kept them motivated when faced with overwhelming odds. He knew that TLR was using religion to suppress the people. He needed to create a religion to counter it.

He for sure grows even more through Secret History.

I wouldn't look at the current number of hemalurgic creatures. It seems that there is a huge number of possible combinations. You can make a spike of pretty much any cosmere attribute or ability. You can have any combination of any of these.  Including the possible combination of animals mixed in. You then can begin mixing in the nonhuman races like mistwraiths, dragons, or parshmen.

What we are calling hemalurgic constructs are really just the more obvious side effects when you screw with your spirit web.

I think people are overestimating the power of transformation. Jasnah is no where near efficient at killing as even Kaladin. The amount of Stormlight she consumes to do these things are crazy. We've seen gems crack from Jasnah over exerting her power killing only few thugs in which they nearly got her.

There is a reason we've only seen her super powerful a few times. The amount of investiture needed is insane. She has only went full ham when she had unlimited stormlight. Unless she has access to that it isn't going to combat a Mistborn.

1 minute ago, Dlyol said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong here but my sense is that elsecalling into and out of the cognitive is expensive but not prohibitively so and when in you don't need to spend any stormlight beyond normal leakage. It wouldn't be difficult to enter cognitive - wait until the mistborn, who will need to burn atium to predict when the elsecaller will come out, runs out - then just come out behind him

You don't need to use atium to predict where an opponent is going to emerge. It is an advantage yes, but it is not an overwhelming advantage. You then have to follow a potentially flying enemy who can detect your investiture. Given stormlight is always leaking it can probably be detected by a seeker. At the very least a seeker could detect the direct use of power as you leave the cognitive realm. Changing the advantage to a disadvantage as you try to orient yourself popping back into the physical world. 

2 hours ago, Yata said:

To give credit to Ati.

He also created all' the People's ancestors he then tried to destroy.

#atiLawer

*helped create. Humans were more Preservation than Ruin.

47 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

Comparing the Traveler's vendetta to Ati might also be a indirect hint at Odium's apparent Vendetta. Kind of a, Ati's Intent made him a danger to the entire cosmere, and he's not the only one. Or just a direct call to Ati almost destroying a planet, one of the two.

I think he is pointing out how twisted Ati had become, and if Ati the best of them was so twisted by his power, what of the rest? It kind of implies one of the shards has a vendetta against what I assume is Frost.

1 minute ago, Dlyol said:

While I agree with this it is the case that Bondsmiths have done some pretty ridiculous things over the years, like what Melishi did, and that TLR is also a bit of an exception in that he is also a Sliver, which while not granting him any powers did give him lots of potentially useful realmatic knowledge.

I'm just so unclear how any of the metallic arts counter all the myriad ways a creative Elsecaller can abuse the cognitive realm and the ability to soulcast over distance

That is a huge advantage, but as long as a metalborn is burning or tapping they will resist soulcasting. A surgebinder also is using up investiture always. If a metalborn can survive they can control their burn rate. Unless the surgebinder has access to a load of investiture the metalborn just needs to outlast them. 

Depending on the circumstance it is going to come down to who uses the reserves first. Which the Mistborn will have the advantage here, unless the surgebinder has access to stormlight.

24 minutes ago, Dlyol said:

I agree with this (although we still aren't entirely sure what Bondsmiths can do) so the question really becomes what is next in the pecking order and I think people who believe it to be Mistborn really overstate the case for atium.

We have a pretty good idea. The abilities aren't meant for combat. They works with some sort of spiritual Tension and Adhesion. They are meant to bind and connect. Dalinar is a bit of a special case now that Honor is dead. He is probably the most powerful Bonsdmith ever.

A Fullborn would be (in raw power) stronger than any normal Surgebinder. That doesn't mean the Fullborn will win the fight. For instance I honestly think that a Surgebinder is far more powerful than any twinborn, but I think that Wax could take out a full plated Surgebinder of any order (Other than possibly Dalinar).

That being said Dalinar's full power potential as the Bondsmith of a dead shard is probably greater than that of even a fullborn. The Stormfather is an incredible amount of investiture. There is no real competitor in power levels for him. The only thing with greater power is probably a shard or maybe an avatar of Autonomy. 

I honestly would ignore Atium completely. Even without it a full mistborn is going to have huge advantages over a Surgebinder. Surgebinders are working with 2/10 surges. Mistborn are 16/16 powers. Their scope not including god metals is just beyond that of a Surgebinder. If you start mixing in ANY amount of feruchemy the power is just unreasonable.

The only good counter to Atium right now would be Reranin who has the advantage of Voidbinding.

55 minutes ago, Broseph said:

What I mean is that what makes surgebinding so god is that you can use it anywhere gain a one shot kill partial invulnerability and a  one shot kill

Also metal n mistborn acts as a filter that lets investiture in from the spiritual realm to create an a effect, that effect wouldn't happen if it was raw investiture i.e stormlight but the investiture let in by allomancy could fuel surges

I'm not sure where you got in your head that you can use surgebinding to oneshot kill anyone. That is just 100% not true.

You aren't really making any points. You seem to be very confused about the systems at play here. It is hard to correct any individual statement you make because you are assuming a lot of things that simply are not true.

You for sure could argue that surgebinding is the most  powerful current ability, but the way you are doing it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

It would be super difficult to use allomancy to power Surgebinding. You'd literally have to be an allomancer or do some crazy stuff. Stormlight is investiture which means basically anyone can just walk up and take it. Stormlight is by far the easiest investiture to use by anyone.

Just now, Broseph said:

but to do so they would need to become a radiant they don't absorb storm light to do allomany the just open a pathway for investiture and surge could be powered by that but allomancy couldn't be powered stormlight

Huh? We know non-radiant that are already using Stormlight. ...also that line of thought doesn't really make sense. 

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I'm not saying that Kaladin could go do it anywhere i'm saying that surgebinding is incredibly powerfull as a mistborn could use it or a returend or and elantrian 

Do you mean that stormlight is a powerful form of investiture? Otherwise what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense.

1 minute ago, Broseph said:

They say it travels with the high storm thats why Dalinar when bonded to the stromfather could summon it and why it has never been done before (Stormfather is the last remenants of honour meaning that he is the highest concentration of the shard honour)

And raw investiture comes out of all perpendicularity unless specifically shaped and if hour is dead I doubt it is.

You are right it is. I derped for a second. Your main argument still seems to be that the easy accessibility of stormlight is why Radiant are the most powerful. Which doesn't make sense really. I'm sure with the right knowledge a Mistborn could use stormlight. 

Off Roshar you are also going to run out of stormlight very quickly.

30 minutes ago, Broseph said:

Ok, So you've read the title and you know what this is about, feel free to criticise

So first thing is that stormlight is basically raw investiture and I have some reasons for this .

1.So from what we know stormlight is only called that because it comes from storms which we know is Honor's perpendicularity so investiture comes out and gets trapped in gems.

Stormlight is Honor's investiture. Do we know it is a perpendicularity? I could be wrong, but I thought Dalinar specifically opened the perpendicularity. I had assumed that Honor's perpendicularity was gone right now.
 

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2.We have WoB that allomancy which basically uses metal as a filter to get a certain result (e.g white light through a red film to get red light) however WoB Lift says that uses calories or other biological material which the way I see it has no relation to investiture like metal and the way I see it means that it doesn't filter investiture  meaning that raw investiture is moved into lift's body which would make sence if its the only way she can access to stormlight (we have WoB on that to) then it would have to be the same kind of investiture as the other radiants.

Lift does metabolize things into investiture. She is more than likely using raw investiture to power her abilities. However it isn't stormlight. It is just investiture.
 

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3. Breaths are something given by Endowment and whilst made of investiture the best way I can visualise it is that it is block a certain sized block of ice whilst normal investiture is like water both made of the same stuff but still different. Which would make sence as breaths are given by endowment (Originally) whilst stormlight is only shaped and used after inside the surge-binders body. This would also make sence  as (WoB said) is on Roshar to get breaths easly but has not figured how to use stormlight to fuel awakening/ make breaths yet and WoB also says you can use breaths to fuel surgebinding if you can actually transfer it. Which fits the analogy people can metabolise ice into water and if they couldn't it it would still melt but freezing water can't be done 

I might be missing it, but I don't see the point.
 

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Second is that shardblades (Considering they cut the soul) can kill almost anything and I will list them now.

1. Awakened object below IV

2. Awakeners/Returned (Breaths are basically fancy soul glue which a shard blade could cut)

2. Elentrians(sever connection with AonDor)

3 Shades

4 Shadows (The big things from Sixth of the dusk cuase a nick would still sever the soul)

5.Fused(They re-incarnate but still..)

Conclusion: Surgebinders can get there power anywhere investiture is preset and kill anything with there blade and if they have plate the chances of you taking them down in a 1 hit K.O or just fast enough stop you cutting you are slim to none (And as an aside one of them basically made the well of Ascension/The Pits of Hathsin/The Pool by just clapping their hands once ,so you know match that with a steel push)

Anyone can learn to use investiture from anywhere to fuel their power. It isn't always easy, but it can be done.

Anything heavily invested could stop a shardblade. Heck they have half shards on Roshar already. Metalminds with enough investiture should resists a shardblade. Something with enough breath should be able to stop it also. Nightblood is about 100% more powerful than a shardblade.

Surgebinders are power for sure. I wouldn't say they are the most deadly. In the Cosmere knowledge is the most deadly thing.

14 minutes ago, Ishar said:

 

I actually said the opposite... that Autonomy is NOT backing the set, but could be attacking Scadrial.

Sorry, I misunderstood. It is worded in a weird way.

If the Set's Faceless Immortal is going to remove life on Scadrial does that not mean that Autonomy was helping the Set and attacking Scadrial?

Wax and Steris is my favorite. I feels written in a much more believable way than most of the relationships in the Cosmere. A close second would be Wayne and MeLaan.

2 hours ago, Stark said:

I figure that if Adonalsium was involved in everything, and hios investiture permeates everything, than so to does his metal.  Which would be intermingled with the raw materials used to build a planet, and maybe so interlinked that it must be refined out.

I know I'm stretching, but I do not think that I am outside the realm of plausibility.

That doesn't hold up to logic. If Adonalsium is dead his metal would not continue to form in places that didn't exist before the shattering. Ati and Leras both permeated all of Scadrial there are no new reserves of their metals now that they are dead.
 

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As for removing investiture, are you sure?  We have seen Investiture be wiped from something before - by Larkins and Nightblood.  On Nalthis, people give up their investiture.  The rules are flexible for how investiture is contained in an object.  Ad, if his investiture was taken up by the 16, it cannot still be in what remains of his vessel.  It is gone.  Not destroyed, but gone nonetheless.  The energy is transformed, not duplicated.  It is like heat, if you have a bar of metal, red hot and transfer the heat to ice, the ice melts and boils and the bar loses energy.  The energyu is transformed and gone from the metal, but still exists.  Adonalsium's investiture was taken by the 16.  Thermodynamics cannot allow his remains to still have that energy, duplication is not allowed right?

I don't know what you mean. With god metals you aren't using investiture stored in the metal. They are investiture. You can't remove the investiture from investiture. There is nothing about Larkins, Nightblood, or Nalthis that contradict this. The rules aren't flexible here. Larkin's are converting stormlight into mass. Nightblood seems to be powering itself with the investiture it takes. The people of Nalthis aren't really doing anything like that. They are giving up a portion of their investiture as breath. They themselves still contain investiture of their soul. Even Drabs have souls. Just less soul.

Well we know for a fact that yes the investiture remains in the god metal. That is how atium exists. Which continues to exist in Marsh. Thermodynamics does not come into play with this. Not all of the power of a shard is metal. The metal is basically a bit of extra investiture not directly tied to the shard. That is why Ruin's power was put in metal. It was no longer a usable chunk of power for Ruin. It is not directly part of him. (Thermodynamics does come into play it always does but not in a way that supports you.)

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And finally, there is so much we do not know about god metals, I think it is premature to make definitive statements about what can and cannot be.

I disagree. It is not different than claiming there aren't unicorns. There is no current evidence that supports unicorns.
 

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As a further thought - Yes, the 16 god metals are not naturally occuring, and appear pure.  Atium grows out of Geode bulbs.  Lerasium and Harmonium, we do not know.  Tanavastium and Cultivationium condense out of thin air when spren need physical form.  None of that is natural.  This could be because, when Adonalsium was around, and his investiture permeated everything, it was in balance.  So his godmetal growing in Volcanoes could be realistic.  But when shattered, and 16 new godlings appeared, the Cosmere had to react and instantly create 16 new elements.  Of course they are going to appear pure, and not interlinked with the rest of the natural world.  They are new and unnatural, the natural world does not know how to cope.  But Adonalsium was part of everything, so his metal being intertwined with the core of planets feels right to me.

That still doesn't hold up to logic. You are essentially claiming that Adonalsium's god metal isn't a god metal. It is too many unreasonable leaps.

Any god metal of Adonalsium would still be invested. The investiture was not directly connected to Adon and would exist after his shattering.