Varenus

Are you sure its not "them" instead of him?

Hello everyone, Here is a fun little idea I had, Highprince Hatham and the other princes who stayed on the Shattered Plains make a big fuss about uniting under Dalinar and demand that one of them(Hatham) be made king of the Shattered plains. I thought of this when reading the Elhokar's and Dalinar's exchange where Dalinar is made Highking. Elhokar tells Dalinar that he has authority in Urithiru and on the Shattered Plains, but is Elhokar really in a position to give Dalinar that authority? Sure he is king, but what real power does he hold over the highprines? How many supporters does he have in the warcamps presently? Not much and far too few. Mean while Hatham has been making a killing off Dalinar, all his opponents have been shipped to Urithiru, and there are still gemhearts to harvest(before they go void anyway?). I forget who said it (Shallan?), but it is mentioned in WoR that the Shattered Plains could have become the new seat of Alethi power. All the advantages are free for Hatham to seize, Elhokar even left him a nice, kingly palace to stay at. Thoughts?

In the first paragraph of the next chapter Dalinar forms the Stormfather into a shardblade, instantly reforming the shard Honor, which he promptly picks up, teleports to Braize, and one-shots Odium and his champion(who turned out to be stick). Okay, now we have predicted every possible outcome.

Yeah, the fortress might have just been a Radiant stronghold. Even if we ignore the whole "scout"/"escort" thing, why and how would a relatively small group of humans be so close to a Voidbringer fortress? They said to hunt down a spren/unmade, but I think that we have established that attacking such a fortified location with so few would be tantamount to suicide. Also, that radiant was most likely a Dustbringer (glowing red armor, described as water having no purchase on the radiant-surge of friction(?)) so they did not fly all the way into the purelake. Either they had to capture this particular spren or the Stronghold belongs to the Radiants. The only thing in the actual text that supports the Voidbringer fortress theory is the fact that the fortress seems a little too dark for the Radiants to have made, but that is far from definitive.

It is not out outside the realm of possibility considering fabrail tech, surgebinding, and whatever powers voidbinding grants. If the fortress was close to present day Marabithia there could be a river or outlet that leads to the deeper Reshi sea. Though I am unsure of the dimensions of Marabithia or how deep the water is near its shores. The semantics of what constitutes a navy and the Purelake's depth aside, A Voidbringer fortress in the Purelake seems like pretty strong fortification. The waters of the pure lake make conventional armies somewhat vulnerable, really only Radiants and squires would have sufficient mobility to handle threats. Spren and thunderclasts are not inhibited by the Purelake(Midnight Essence and some voidforms might also fit into this category). The two closest Oathgates are to the South and West and there is a third gate to the North further beyond the Reshi Sea, but the East and Northeast are completely open. Do voidbringers need to eat? Because there plenty of fish to eat in the Purelake.

Deep enough for spren and thunderclasts it seems. Seriously though, you are right. Got confused between Reshi sea and Purelake.

I agree, especially considering this vision from Dalinar: It takes place in the pure lake(which is just outside the Deadzone and actually inside the Nexus of Transition), they are hunting a strange spren manipulated by one of the Unmade, and there is a sinister fortress looming in the distance that is suspiciously absent in the present era. possibly soulcast, but what if the voidbringers transitioned it with them from the cognitive realm? If I remember correctly, Dalinar says it looks like obsidian, the same material that the floor is made of in Shadesmar. It could be similar to (Mistborn Secret history spoiler): A Voidbringer naval base?

I am not saying it's a perfect theory. Just an idea I had. Perhaps she was going to leave Dalinar's assassination to Szeth? Really, Mr.T was killing everyone and anyone who might have been a threat and there was no reason to believe Dalinar, who was only one name on a long list, would survive magically. Or perhaps kalami did not realize that Dalinar would be an issue before he mimicked Mr.T? The diagram actually says: Dalinar only recently realized that he needs to unite the whole world, not just Alethkar. And, his attempts at uniting his own country have really only divided it more(Sadeas' betrayal, Sadeas' death, Highprinces staying on the shattered plains, Elhokar acting up, capitol in revolt- which is not Dalinar's fault to be fair). Nothing up until this point has directly threatened Mr.T's plan to rule the world.

I think that Kalami is a Diagamist. Here is a post I made in the copycat killer forum: Also, Kalami seems like a good candidate for a Diagamist: She did not take leave after her husband died She was there at Sadeas' death She has studied Vorin theory She was the one communicating with foreign monarchs during Dalinar's attempt to unify them And, look how suspicious this is: She did not gasp because she is surprised to hear Dalinar propose such a lofty goal, but she is surprised to hear such a clear mirroring of Mr.T's own goals. It might just be coincidence, but it is suspicious.

Very true, but I would also like to point out that Ialai is not the only person who would want to discredit Dalinar. Mr.T and the Diagramists would be in prime position to seize power if Dalinar is not careful. Honestly, I think that the Diagramists have more to gain than the Ghostbloods do, especially considering that Mr.T is already on his way to Urithiru. Also, Kalami seems like a good candidate for a Diagamist: She did not take leave after her husband died She was there at Sadeas' death She has studied Vorin theory She was the one communicating with foreign monarchs during Dalinar's attempt to unify them And, look how suspicious this is: She did not gasp because she is surprised to hear Dalinar propose such a lofty goal, but she is surprised to hear such a clear mirroring of Mr.T's own goals.

Actually, I don't think there has ever been a champion before. Honor said that having a contest between champions was one of the few ways Dalinar and the new Radiants could defeat Odium. Why would Odium expose himself by appointing a champion willingly? Especially when Roshar was so much stronger with the Heralds, a good number of Radiants, the Dawn Shards(whatever those are), and Honor himself. Perhaps its just my interpretation, but I think that having a champion is a bigger liability than it is an asset, and that Odium will only do so if he is somehow bullied into it or if he is sure he is going to win and wants to deliver the killing blow. Think that this would be a more practical application of Odium's champion. Sure Odium's champion will be incredibly powerful, but Honor has all but promised us a way out of it. So, if a champion was appointed, I think that Dalinar and friends would have a harder time against a "hive-mind" champion who controls Odium's army of voidbringers from a more secure position.

@Pattern I agree that Oathbringer could very well be an ancient book like the others. In which case, I cannot wait to see how Dalinar got his shardblade and if it came with the name, he named it( which I doubt), or if Gavilar/ someone else named it for him. It seems likely that the connection between the sword and the book could stem from Gavilar's own Bondsmithness. I dissagree about the book brewing in Dalinar however. The phrasing is loose enough that he might not have literally been contemplating writing a book. But rather, the events of his youth resulted in the person who would eventually use those experiences to write said book. I think there is definently a parallel between Dalinar writing this book and Nohadon writing The Way of Kings. When Dalinar suggested in his vision that Nohadon write the book, Nohadon scoffed at him and pretty much called it s dumb idea. Dalinar would have done the same thing in his youth, but look at him now. Sure Dalinar was by far a worse person in his youth than Nohadon was at that time, but Dalinar could still channel his youthful experiences and older wisdom in a similar way that Nohadon did with the knowledge he obtained through living through a desolation and ruling successfully afterword. Edit: Why do you think Jasnah would not care if more women called her a heretic? Obviously she is more thick skinned than to get annoyed by it, but a large part of her character is fighting against the Vorin church and its perpetuation of sexist ideology. Even Shallan, who was inspired by Jasna and by the books Shallan read by her, still considered her a heretic. It seems like a large enough part of her life to include in a book which, I imagine, will reveal some very interesting information, and most of it is not likely to be Vorin approved.

I wouldn't assume that the "expecting to die" quote is in direct reference to her being stabbed. From the chapter of the boat scene we got from Jasnah's perspective( yes I know it's not fully canon), it did not seem like she was particularly safe in he cognitive realm. The last thing in that sample chapter was mention of a group of spren ( exhaustion spren?) about to attack her. We know that Jasnah is an accomplished soul caster, but the status of her familiarity with elscalling is unknown, I think. After all, she does warn Shallan regularly about the dangers of Shadesmar, and I would be shocked to find out that Jasnah has such control over the world of spren to be comfortable there for all that time. That being said, I am not so certain that Jasnah is the author. The problem is that who else could it be and why is the book called Oathbringer of all things? We know that the author can see into Shadesmar and beyond, has had or will have a near death experience, can write or have some one write for them, the book or concept for the book has bin in their head since youth, and is consider by some to be a godless hermitic. Upon further inspection, could the author be Dalinar himself? The Vorin church is on its way to opposing him( authoring a book is frowned upon in Vorin society), he has visions regularly, Navani could write the book for him, and its likely that he has or will have a near death experience at least once. He has not one, but three people close to home that could be considered to "see further than him" in terms of Shadesmar (Shallan(?), Jasnah, and Renarin). Also, who else except a bondsmith would name their book Oathbringer, which is both the name of his sword and what he does? The purpose of the book could even be to explain to rulers of Roshar why they need to join with him (which could be why some people are relived to read it).

I like your interpritation of the "Release me" quote. Where you thinking of someone specific becoming said champion? And from who would they be taking the burden from? under the circumstances you out line, the champion could be anyone with someone they desired to protect. The person who springs to mind most readily would be Kaladin as a Windrunner. A random thought only tangentially related: The Dustbringers were known as releasers, right? Perhaps they can use their surge of division to separate or muddle spren bonds and other forms of connection? So, like the opposite of what I imagine a Bondsmith could do.

I agree that it would be interesting, but the epigraph from chapter 4 seems too much like Jasnah. I suppose Eshonai and Szeth could be considered "godless heretics", but why would women specifically think so?

While rereading some of the Way of Kings epigraphs, I noticed this deathrattle: From Chapter 54. I assumed that this was in reference to Taln's continued torture in damnation. Where the "nine" are the other heralds, "madness" is Taln being tortured, and "release me" is Taln wanting to leave damnation for obvious reasons. However, it could also be describing Odium's champion. Where the "burden of nine" is the Unmade, the "madness of them all" seems like an apt description of nine immensely powerful spren whispering in your ear. And if the champion is chosen against their will, "Almighty, release me" would also make a lot of sense. Also, I hate to be that one guy, but the "A baby is Odium's champion" theory also has new merit with the arrival of Kaladin's brother Oroden. I would hate for it to be true, but the infamous epigraph: from chapter 57, refers to the child as a him. These two death deathrattles also seem to imply something about a tragedy involving a brother/child: from chapter 3, and from chapter 52. Like I said, if the champion turns out to be Oroden, or any baby for that matter, I will throw my book out a window into a woodchipper and I hope I am just over analyzing the epigraphs.

The culprit is obviously tower voodoo. Seriously though, based on the introduction for Oathbringer it seems that some of the Knights Radiant were up to no good. Maybe evil odium spren now haunt the place.

@Calderis Oh wow, I didn't even consider the Hemalurgic decay factor. Makes sense that a spiritual healing would work more smoothly without the spike in place as well. Guess that settles the Savant questions. Although, I still wonder how identity and Hemelurgy interact, if they do at all. Probably a question for another thread however.

Thanks for all the great answers guys! Up votes for all! I guess I wrongly assumed that Hemalurgy was like an organ transplant or something. Questions 2B and 2C were an attempt to create an "unkeyed Hemalurgic spike" which would fool a person's soul into thinking that the new parts provided by the spike were actually theirs to begin with by removing the original person's identity/ changing the original person's identity to match the recipient's. Julio, I was not implying that we would be stealing someone's " identitylessness", but was speculating what an allomantic/feruchemical/human attribute stolen from someone who had no identity would act like. Does that make any sense? I supose a follow up question would be: If something is spiked out of someone, and they somehow live, and that spike was plugged back into their body, can their soul reattach itself to the ripped out piece, because it was originally theirs, or would some form of healing be needed to make their spiritweb whole again? Also: The heart of what i am getting at is this (pun intended). Does the stolen part of a spiritweb inside a Hemalurgic spike know that it belongs to someone else? And, would it behave differently when in contact with its original spiritweb?

Not sure if any of these questions have answers, but I think they are still worth discussing. 1) Is it possible to become a Feruchemical Savant? What exactly does this entail? Would they be more efficient in their tapping/filling? Would they be able to more precisely tap/fill their metalminds? 2) Is it possible to become a "Hemalurgic Savant"? Meaning that the person's soul has fused with the stolen pices to the point it no longer considers them stolen? Would the Hemalurgic spikes still be required or could they be removed? 2B) If attributes were stolen from someone who was storing their identity, would it be possible to impart that attribute to someone without the need for the spike to stay in their body? Extrem case: 2C) If attributes were stolen from someone who was actively tapping the identity of the person who was to receive(is it even possible to tap someone else's identity?), would the continued presence of the Hemalurgic spike still be necessary? 3) If a Savant filled a nicrosil investiture metalmind(one that anyone could tap) with their more powerful allomancy(thinking about Spook's tin), would the person tapping said metalmind become a Savant as long as they were tapping it?

Welp, there goes that idea. Perhaps Szeth will actually attract a Highspren and use its bond to inhale stormlight. Or, more mundanly, Szeth could just throw Nightblood and hope whatever he is fighting will try to pick it up. Probably less effective on charging thuderclasts than your average Nalthian though.

Oh cool, I never knew. I was actually considering a Fabrial grip that separated the user from Nightblood and used its own stormlight reserves to fuel it. Actually on topic: has anyone considered the possibility of Radiants gaining additional powers/surges without the use of the Honorblades? On the coppermind page for surges there is a small line describing "God surges." The source of this line is a WoB which states that there is a parallel between Scadrial God metals and said God surges. The WoB also mentions that illumination/abration could be considered God surges. Will link when I get off mobile. Strange considering we know that illumination and abration are standard surges. My tentative theory is that God surges are just regular surges that can be accessed by knights that normally do not have access to them. Additional speculation: There are several unexplaned lines on the surgebinding chart in the cover of the way of kings hardcover. Most of the lines point to the orders respective surges and each of the order's closest neighbors(who share surges with them). However there a lines that connect seemingly random orders. What if these lines point to each order's God surge counterparts? This explained how illumination could be considered a God surge to a knight from an order that is not a truthwatcher/lightweaver, but would be normal surges to a truthwatcher/lightweaver. Nin son God (never gets old) states that Honor somehow regulated the knights and that he fears what might happen if the knights ever achieve the full power of the oaths. My thoughts are that 5 oaths is not the maximum number of oath possible and that furthering a knight's oaths gives them access to God surges. Also fits into Ishar's "I will destroy all of you unless you obey the rules" line. Honorblades were considered to be more powerful then spren granted abilities when Honor was still whole. Most people attribute this to the Honorblades ability to draw power directly from Honor. Consider that Honor, as previously mentioned, was stifling the knights oaths to the more powerful oaths, thereby removing God surges from the knights while he was alive. Perhaps no such restriction was imposed on the Honorblades and gave the Heralds access to God surges, which also gave Honorblades their reputation as being more powerful. This would also makes ishar's threat more viable as he had the advantage of God surges, while knights only had the two surges associated with their order. I know it is far fetched and kind of dumb, but this seemed like the discussion to address by idea.

I agree with you, but for arguments sake is it necessary for the investiture that feeds Nightblood to come from the person who is using it? Could infused spheres or the ambient stormlight in the atmosphere during a high storm fuel an unsheathed Nightblood?

An interesting question: Would said bond grant abilities/surges that are of Endowment because Nightblood was crated using Breath? Endowmentbinding? Breathbinding?