AbsentKeeper

It definitely is. Sorry for that wall of text in advance, by the way

You know you're a Sanderfan when you spend over two hours writing 1100 words in a post about Hemalurgy, for a theory you don't believe.

Edit: Warning, enormous wall of text incoming. Like "make the Star Wars crawl jealous" enormous. You've got a lot of good points here, and I know that I'll miss stuff if I try to answer it all in one go, so I'll try to break it down in manageable chunks. (Also keep in mind that I've been convinced, and I'm mostly just arguing this now on the off chance it turns up something significant.) I honestly didn't really think about this aspect. I can see this interpretation for why other invested metal objects, besides the usual metals, are not burnable, but I always just assumed that Shardblade/plate and Nightblood were filled with thier own keyed Investiture, which would be more like burning Fuerchemists stores without the ablilty to use Feruchemy. Do we have any more information on this point, or has all of what we've gotten been too vauge? We also have the strange WoBs that suggest that Nightblood, or a Shardblade, theoretically could be used as a Hemalurgic spike, but they are already 'full'. Ill dig those up if you like, I think you've already seen those though. On the topic of god metals... I don't really know what to think about them. I definitely think that they should be considered separately from the structure of the systems normally. They're strange in a number of ways; they provide the power themselves rather than acting as a key (or Atium does at least), their abilities seem to have no rhyme or reason compared to the (very few) other god metals we know, and they also seem to ignore the normal limitations of thier parent system, in that Lerasium rewrites the spiritweb, avoiding the need for proper genetics, and an Atium spike can steal any attribute, avoiding the need for different kinds of spikes. Harmonium and trellium, I don't think we really understand at all yet, except that Harmonium allows magic use by an inanimate objects, and Trellium does things for kandra that not even Atium can. Personally, I think the God metals might be allowed to hack the system a bit, because of the way they're fueled directly by a Shard, rather than acting as a key. Sidebar: That WoB definitely does suggests that 'Trell' is actually on Scadrial, and heavily invested, and this is news to me! What are your thoughts on Trell forming a whole new metallic art, if indeed metal is the only focus on Scadrial? Perhaps this was what Brandon was referring to as special circumstance: Trell can't form a whole new system like Odium did on Roshar, because he's constrained by what Ruin and Preservation did when they created the planet, so instead, he only gets to make a god metal, which he can pass out and fuel directly with his power. On the first point, this is one of the main problems I was trying to reconcile before I posted this theory, and I came up with a few ideas, none that were very strong though. Perhaps it has something to do with Wyndle's statement about condensed shardic power being connected to metal. Perhaps it has something to do with what I said above about god metals breaking the rules and just being very poorly understood at the moment. Like I said, nothing solid here. The second point is easier, thankfully, because that last one makes my brain hurt. As I see it, It could be that there are new bindpoints associated with Trell. This actually fixes a lot of problems with trellium, because it can be explained that the new abilities of trellium in Hemalurgy are just caused by placing a god metal, which can steal any attribute, into the new bindpoint(s). I might have to ask you to clarify this bit, I don't know if I'm reading this right. If you're asking why there are appropriate bindpoints for placing investiture forms that aren't native to Scadrial, then I don't understand why that is a problem for this theory. Brandon has said a few times that cross system powers could involve some sort of hack, I hypothesize that part of the need for this hack comes from the fact that off-world things don't fit perfectly with hemalurgy, its just easier than most magic systems because of the amount of options for placing the spike where it's relatively close to fitting the spiritweb, and then warping it the rest of the way there. I see what you're saying here, but I don't think that the bindpoints have to be a product of Hemalurgy to be the focus. Surely iron, copper, and gold all existed elsewhere in the cosmere before Presevervation and Ruin created Scadrial, but they weren't able to be used for Allomancy or Feruchemy before then. The bindpoints should be the same, in that they exist all across the cosmere, but weren't able to be manipulated until Ruin's Investiture created a way to rip chunks out of them. With the metals as the focus, shouldn't there still be the same problem of the metal needing a connection to Ruin, in order to be useful for stealing? Unless all metals naturally have the ability to hold investiture, independent of any Shard, in which case it wouldn't need a connection at all, in either case. (Notice I don't say Ruin created Hemalurgy, as I think its likely that Shards don't control a lot of the specifics, but rather they arise naturally out of the intent and general plan the Shard has. That's a whole 'nother topic though) I agree with almost all of this, as the actual mechanics of how it works are mostly the same either way. The main problem that I have with the current model of Hemalurgy is as follows, however. One spike can steal four different powers (or maybe eight, if you go back to the F.gold problem) depending on which bindpoint in the heart you put it through. To me, it just doesn't make sense that a single 'type' of focus could produce so many different effects, when in every other magic system, each type of focus only produces one. I would agree that Hemalurgy was never intended to allow the transfer of powers, but I don't know if I would say that its only purpose was to take investiture from things. Why take it, if it's just going to return to its Shard slowly through decay? I think it's fairly likely that the original intent was to Ruin the souls of the people on both ends of the transfer, by creating Hemalurgic constructs, such as the Kolos, to further spread destruction. That last bit is really only speculation, but I've thought that for a while (independent of this theory), and it seems plausible to me. You hit my feelings on the head here. Even though I'm almost certain my theory is wrong at this point, I still feel like there's something nebulous there that I can't quite explain. We need more storming information! *Breathes deeply* ... I'm done? That was it? Whew that took a long time to type out

Its definitely a long shot, especially since theres a WoB that says he hasn't figured out how to awaken with Stormlight. I suppose he could have some real real breaths stored somewhere for an emergency though. As far as the Nightwatcher being a red herring, I wouldn't put that past Brandon at all, especially since its so easy to explain why someone doesn't remember how they got memory loss. I do seriously doubt it's this specific circustance though, both for logical reasons and, as you said, because it would be very out of character.

Ahhh, that makes so much more sense. I was lost but I was like "If its a WoB, I can't argue with it." Completely forgot about the Rosharan body focuses.

@Extesian Those WoBs are indeed very interesting. Neither say that there can be only one focus per planet, but that second one seems to imply that 'focus' isn't a Realmatic constant the way we've been looking at it. From the way he described it, it seems like it has more to do with classification than any real part of the Investiture transfer process. Have we been debating the traits of something that doesn't even exist? Now I feel silly.

My logic behind this was mostly related to the heart WoB, which suggested that there was a specific bindpoint in the heart for each of the four powers stealable per metal, and the comments below that to Calderis about Aon modifiers. Since Brandon said 'the focus of the metallic arts is metal', I could continue to argue, since, according to my theory, Hemalurgy isn't a metallic art. I won't though, simply because I'm not convinced that Brandon would be that sneaky with WoBs, and I wasn't that firm a believer in my own theory to begin with. I might still write up the theory out of boredom one day though, unless Calderis digs up that Rusting WoB that could shoot it down with just the words "The focus depends on the planet, not the Shard"

@Oversleep this is the post I was referring to. I admitted to being wrong on the 3rd and 4th points, but provided a WoB for one of the others, and referenced a well known one without posting it for the other, so plenty of support. On the point of not having time, that was why I didn't provide support immediately, but rather posted it later. Edit: @Extesian that thread does put a damper on my theory, but@Calderis the one you're talking about does sound much more definitive and Realmatically useful.

I assume that you're talking about the Nalthis focus one, and I really would like to see that one. However, the 'assumptions' I was referring to were only the specific statements I quoted, about bindpoints in the heart (which I posted a WoB for), and the specific points of Oversleep's that I already responded to. For the most part, if you say there's a WoB, I won't doubt you, although of course I want to see it. Edit: I certainly didn't mean to imply that all of anyone's statements were unsupported, only those specific ones. Wow, this could explain a lot.

I wasn't being rude, I was pointing out something that I knew would make you mad, and tried my best to clarify that it wasn't anything personal or intended to start a fight. Many of those things are assumptions, just because they are based in solid logic, they don't have definitive textual support or a direct WoB. Perhaps hypothesis would have been a kinder word than assumption. Either way, I did go back with a later post and address all of your points. On the topic of determination and blessings, good God, forgive me if I got a couple facts wrong. Remember when I said that I needed to reread Mistborn before writing the minute of the theory? Summing up, I didn't "call out" everyone who said I was wrong, just you, because I thought you were rude and unhelpful. Also, I explained in my original post that the reason I didn't answer right away was because I didn't have time to type it out before going to class. If you still want to fight with me, send me a PM or something, everyone doesn't need to listen to this.

I believe the last couple were released on Sunday.

I understand, if everyone agreed with me, I wouldn't have to make the argument. Maybe I'll change some minds when I put all the evidence I can find together, maybe not. What are your thoughts on the discrepancies in the Rosharan systems that I mentioned earlier? Surgebinding definitely relies on bonds, but what about the ancient fabrials that don't contain spren, but just use stormlight? And what about the Old Magic? As I said before, you could say you're 'bonded' to a curse and a boon, but I think that's a bit weak. You can say anything is a bond if you use the word that poetically. Edit: Oh, and the Honorblades, which actively avoid the usually required bond? Edit again: Sorry if these are things you've already discussed with other people, but Roshar's magic is one of the main reasons that I think the focus doesn't have to be the same for every magic system on the planet. The Old Magic particularly bothers me in this regard, but maybe you've thought about it more than I have.

I'm really sorry if this comes off as rude, because I really don't ever want to see discussion on the Shard devolve to insults, but I have come very close to downvoting several of your recent posts. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you disagree with me, that's perfectly fine, but you can't just say that I'm wrong and provide no evidence to back it up. That's not how scholarship works. Both of these are vaguely confrontational and provide nothing to the discussion. This one is better, as it raises some valid concerns, but still not backed by anything, other than that you think I'm wrong. On the first point, tin stores your sensory perception of the world, and if you perceive it five ways, you have five things to store. If you only had one sense, you'd only have one thing to store, and if you had more you'd have mlre options. (As per the 'Playtapus Feruchemist can store electro-sense WoB) This isn't even remotely the same as stealing both steel and pewter Allomancy with the same spike, it would be more analogous to choosing a memory to store in a coppermind. On the second point, we have a WoB that the quadrent of the heart a person is spiked in makes a difference as to what can be stolen. I will find it and edit it in here in just a second. On the third point, that is simply not true. The fourth quadrent of the Feruchemy chart contains 'hybrid' traits, only 3 of which could reasonably be called physical. For storing food and water, health, and breath, I could see the argument that they are simply more physical metals, but mental determination? That one kinda breaks that argument unless you claim it enhances determination through brain chemistry, which could be claimed for any of the mental powers. On the fourth point, I admit I was wrong here, I was remembering that the spike ReLuur lost was pewter for some reason. This is why I said I need a reread before I make this argument. Edit again: @Calderis trellium is definitely odd, but it doesn't go against the new system that I'm proposing. The base idea of my theory is that the metals are still tied closely into the system, just as modifiers that act on what is being stolen, or the effect of placing a spike in a particular bindpoint, rather than the actual focus. Its mostly a semantic difference, but it would mean that we don't have to reconcile several odd facts: Such as the fact that a pair of Kandra blessings makes a Kandra even when they are a different metal. It still makes a Kandra, because the bindpoints determine that, while the metal determines what kind of Kandra it is. Just like an Aon might always make fire, but modifiers determine what kind of fire.

Haha it was a good question. I wish I could make it to the Oathbringer release, all my questions would probably be RAFOed though. Edit: Also, I'll take a WoB any day over the word of a king's Wit!

This is the problem I'm having, I guess. I don't see, at all, why this should be treated as something simple and well known. I don't even necessarily believe this theory, but I don't think that we know enough about how a focus works to claim anything for certain. Even if Brandon said the exact words "Command is the focus for Nalthis" it doesn't mean all that much, because there's only one Shard, and one magic system on Nalthis. Considering the fact that we don't have any good in text explanations of focci, and the only WoBs we have are ambiguous at best, I think its definitely worth looking in to. Who knows? We may all have been assuming the Earth is the center of the universe, because that's where most of the data points. Meanwhile Brandon and Peter are watching us spin around the sun, laughing maniacally. Edit: It seems like most of our differences here stem from the fact that you believe the focus is solely dependent on planet, where as I think its more likely that it stems from a combination of the planet and the specific Shard's power, thus the differences on Roshar.

I already edited to clarify that I didn't mean this as a personal attack or anything. I fully intend to present all of my evidence together, soon, and then I'll be happy for you to tear it apart. Oh the scholarly discourse! The main point of that, admittedly ill conceived, post was just to point out that I have a lot more argments to make, and a lot more evidence to put forward, I just wanna save them until I can put everything together. If I'm gonna try to change our general understanding of something this Realmatically significant, you gotta let me prepare for it.

I'm going to go ahead and stop here, in the short term because I have to go to class, and in the long term because (As I said earlier) this would leave me nothing for my theory post. I'll start my reread of Mistborn and every Hemalurgy WoB I can find tonight when I get home, but it is my personal opinion, supported by quite the pile of evidence, that most of what is in these two posts claim is only assumed, and quite frequently goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice, and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general. Edit: I just reread this post, and I think a bit of my assuredness movement came out. Read this about three levels less harsh than it came out, please. Haha

There all all kinds of things we don't understand about Hemalurgy. You've already stated that you don't count god metals, so I won't make that argument again, but let me instead point you to a few inconsistencies. In Hemalurgy, steel has been shown to steal Allomantic physical powers, which we have accepted as fitting the 'one focus, one power's rule, but its not one power, its four. However, what power is granted is based on what bind point the spike was placed in, after it has been charged. Its really no different than Soul Casting Fabrials requiring different gemstones to make certain essences. Alternatively, look at Hemalurgic pewter. According to the Ars Arcanum, it is supposed to steal physical Feurchemical powers, which makes sense until you realize that the Inquisitors have been using them for Feurchemical gold, an ability in the hybrid square of the chart. And that's without even talking about the fact that half of all Kandra Blessing are made of Allomantic stealing metals, but they steal human attributes. I really don't wanna get into it too much though, I wont have anything left for my theory post .

The WoB at the top of the thread states that "several different metals would work" for stealing powers from an Aviar, unless you're ready to say full stop that there's no way to interpret it that way. I would argue that god metals aren't different at all. The only god metals we have seen in Hemalurgy are Atium, which is Ruin's metal, and therefore the most compatatible with Hemalurgy, and 'trellium', which we know nothing about, other than that it can do things Harmony doesn't know about. Edit: Oh, and @Calderis I should have been more specific, I meant that Roshar is the only other world besides Sel (which could share focus between all systems because the two Shards powers are mingled) and Scadrial (which is the one in contention) that has mutiple magic systems to examine. Nalthis, and every other world that might serve as a 'normal' example only has one magic system.

I have argued this point before, and plan to do so again soon, as I'm sure I'll reread Mistborn era 1 before oathbringer gets here. The only WoB I can find on the subject is this one, and its hardly useful And the only in world evidence we have is from Sel, which can hardly be called normal, since it has two Shards that are mingled in the CR. Take Roshar for example, the only other system with multiple magics that are confirmed to be different systems. The common theories are that Roshars focus is either bonds, or spren. But the issue is that neither of these are shared by the three types of magic that we've seen on Roshar. Surgebinding obviously has both spren and bonds, but fabrials are a different story. The modern ones use spren, but require no bond of any sort unless you count 'bonding' the spren to the gemstone (which I do not, because Brandon has said that bonds require intent and the spren seems to have no say,) and the ancient types, such as soulcasters, don't use spren at all, nor do they seem to require bonds, only infused gems. The Old Magic 'binds' you to a boon and curse, and its made by a spren, I guess, but both of those are a stretch in my book. There's definitely something wrong with the way that we understand focuses right now, and like I said, I'm going to address it in a very long post concerning Hemalurgy soon. Also, should I hide my posts in the event thread and post them in this one instead? ---------------------- Edit: Went ahead and moved this stuff over I've always had a pet theory in the back of my head for the focus of Hemalurgy being the bind points rather than the metal, and this actually supports it rather nicely with the "several metals would work" bit. The main idea is that our definition of a 'focus' is as follows: The variable that you change in order to vary the effect that the magic has. E.g. you swallow different metals to gain different powers in Allomancy, but they are all metals so metals are the focus. If multiple spikes made of different metals can be used to achieve the same result, logic follows that metal is not the focus, but rather more like the modifiers in Aon Dor. That leaves the Hemalurgic bind-points as the focus, with the heart ones always used for stealing, and various other ones each providing a unique effect for spike placement. The way I see it, it's either that or our definition of focus is incorrect. I think I'm going to put my thoughts together in a thread next time I reread Mistborn, but I figured I'd add it here. Edit: I typed all that out and then forgot the main point of posting it here... What I was getting at is that, if I am right, there still is a strong case for non-metal spikes, as the focus would not be changing, it would just be undiscovered modifiers. I agree this WoB definitely kills the idea some people had of Hemalurgy changing focuses on different worlds though.

I suppose I could see that interpretation, but of course my mind automatically went to the one that supports the theory I'm building. I think if it depended on the Aviar's power, he would have said something more like "it would require different metals depending on the circumstance" rather than "several will work" Regardless of this context, we know that Atium, 'Trellium', and steel are all capable of stealing Allomantic steel, for instance. As Harmony himself once said...

Moved this over to Calderis's new thread because I posted too much Cosmere theory in the event forum

You are right about Elantris, I forgot about that one. I was just referring to Cosmere books though, as I have not gotten around to reading Alcatraz yet, I probably will eventually though. Edit: I also have no clue who does the audiobook versions of WoT, I've only read the actual books for those. Edit again: Also, on the topic of this thread, I believe you're only a few upvotes away from 'bridgeman'

Exactly what I said. Odium being bound to Roshar because he hasn't been able to destroy Cultivation seems likely, and it ties well into Hoid calling her 'Slammer', even if she is only imprisoning him indirectly. My problem with all of this is that we know it can only be part of what's holding him in the Rosharan system, because of all the WoBs talking about the Oathpact and such. I'm starting to believe that he's going to be bound by lots of stuff in the Rosharan system, just based on the nature of Investiture there. Which bond is actually keeping him in the system though, we won't know until later.