Odium's_Shard

I am a personal fan of random theories (hence my contributions to the Parshendi/world saving badasses threads, and the innumeral threads I have made on GT on just thoughts I have about the entire Cosmere.

And this one could make sense, but I personally feel that the Shards have not recently changed hands, or in fact seem not to had changed since the Shattering, as the writer of 'The Letter' in tWoK seems familiar with many by name, and Rayse, Ati and Leras have been around since all the Shardworlds broke apart. So I feel that Cultivation changing hands would be a major plot point, or worldbuilding point, that Brandon would have at least suggested (unless it is meant to be a 'twist', but no offence, it isn't quite shocking enough).

Also, some have suggested this refers to a 'Head' of sorts of the Stone Shamanism religion that the follow. In the same way, many feel that Szeth may be a necessary antithesis in this religion (in the same way as Satan must exist for God to have a point), and be 'He who takes away'. They seem the type of peoples who favor balance, and Cultivation is the very essence of balance, as it knows that some shoots must be culled for others to flourish.

Also, many say that Cultivation may not even live on Roshar, that it is just someone Tanavast knew from the Shattering, or that she/he fled before Odium, or that there was a third Shard previously on Roshar before Honor died, then fled, leaving just Cultivation. There are too many possibilities for anyone to make so much as a definitive guess, as there are ways to argue and press every point.

But, when Brandon reveals Cultivation's sex change in the fourth book of The Stormlight Archive, you can refer to this post in mockery, and rightly send me packing with my tail between my legs. But please, don't just accept my opinion. It's so boring when people do that!

Argue it your way too, when you have some evidence, and maybe we'll all end up agreeing with you, and we can all espouse your theory as the definitive truth! Good luck,

Odium

Yes I read it when you replied to Telcontar's views about the artwork. I'd like to see some featuring the other magic systems. If you need any help with any of the theory work, or opinions about how it should be represented in ASD format, feel free to contact me or Telcontar (I'm sure he won't mind me recommending him).

Here's a list of the systems that I know enough about to help you:

• Surgebinding (strong)
  
• The Metallic Arts (strong)
  
• Awakening (medium)
  

Anyway, after slowly watching the derailisation of this topic collapse, I'd like to push just slightly for further posts to be slightly relevant to the last post that I can see that makes a contribution to the thread's topic (terminisation of 'Investiture', in verbal format), which is #25.

It is in response mostly to your post, as far as I can tell, Satsuoni.

I believe that Dalinar said something to the effect that while this is useful for the sides of the helmets, meaning that your vision isn't completely obstructed outside of the eyeslits, you still need the slits because its like seeing the world through misted glass. You can see when things are in the corners of your vision, but not what they are. It just gives the Shardbearer more time to react.

We are still unsure whether or not it matters whether a spike is charged or not for them to be accessible to Ruin/Harmony. There has been speculation as to whether or not Wax's earring is charged, meaning that he can speak to Harmony (after all, not every Pathist's earring can be Hemalurgically charged, and we presume Harmony might be able to hear them all, otherwise they wouldn't follow the religion [he might just give them a sense of encouragement, not talk to them directly]), but we won't know until BS confirms it, denies it, the Kandra who gave it to him is revealed or Wax shows some weird power (do we know what metal the earring is so that we can watch out for it?).

Also, if it was charged, it is highly unlikely that Wax has found the exact Hemalurgical precision point to give him any power from the ring (ie, depending on the metal or the ring, the place it was taken from the victim, and his ear lobe), meaning that ANY piercing with a Hemalurgic ring, whether it gives power or not, can link you to Ruin.

Lastly, there has been speculation that the reason that Allomancy is so poor at affecting metals that pierce the body, or touch the blood, is because it causes Preservation's power (Allomancy) to work directly against that of Ruin's (Hemalurgy, even minor, uncharged), causing the powers to cancel out if they are of the same strength, meaning the Allomancer can only prevail if they bring more power (flare, Duralumin). We assume the same works for using Emotional Allomancy to control constructs, you have to break Ruin's hold on the construct to use your Allomancy to control them, which is why Vin has to use Duralumin (Elend is a more powerful Allomancer anyway).

By Nalthis, don't you mean Roshar? And by the way of the antifabrian research, I am assuming they still hold to some scientific practice, and how you might go about it, but granted, they probably know very little about elements other than that they can be Soulcast. What interests me about Brandon's books is that there seems to be a science that threatens to erupt from all of his magic systems, be it advanced medical practices using Feruchemy, therapy using Emotional Allomancy, or production of resources from Fabrials/Transformation/Soulcasting, all of which are similar to practices that we have on our own planet, but made much simpler by the use of magic.

Whereas Mistborn are legendary in AoL, the other Allomancers and Feruchemists become almost a part of everyday life and businesses, which I find really cool, seeing as how the population has to adapt to and use these additional resources.

We don't know. We think it might be (I personally have no opinion, this is just a list of ideas that I have seen presented on this board):

• Tanavast
  
• Honor (the Shard, not the holder)
  
• Odium (Rasye or the Shard)
  
• One of the Heralds
  

I've always wondered what the Blessings they receive are. I think I am right in saying that the Blessings, such as that of 'Presence', use Physical Hemalurgy (strength spikes, mental fortitude spikes, etc.).

I do remember one of the Kandra in the Mistborn Trilogy (1) saying there was a limit to the number of spikes taken? Was the a literal rule, or just one they imposed upon themselves so that Ruin couldn't inhabit them and discover the location of his Shardpool (?)?

Also, am I right in saying that a Kandra is a Mistwraith (which is a Feruchemist's remains, long story) that has received one of these spikes. So in a way, their very existence is Hemalurgic, not that they are enhanced by Hemalurgy (though I think Tensoon had two spikes, which enhanced him?), but I don't think it has to be one of the Blessings for them to be turned from Mistwraith to Kandra, and so if a Blessing isn't necessary, just a spike, you could surely spike them with Allomantic/Feruchemical powers? Or at the very least, if they require a Blessing, they are surely able to take two spikes, and thus could take a Blessing and a power.

I am also wondering what ReaderAt was referring to? Did they disagree with the content, feel it was insecure, or was scrutinizing your artistic talent? Personally, I thought they did the job of being incredibly descriptive, even if they were slightly too simplified for my liking (ie, the line colours needs a key).

Maybe Sazed is. After all, his Intent would now be warped to cause him to err on the side of 'balance' as opposed to choosing sides, perhaps meaning that he is helping Wax, while also helping Miles, to provide balance, giving more help to Wax to compensate for Miles' strength as a Feruchemist? Maybe Harmony is just preparing Wax for what lies ahead, and so made Miles more of a challenge, but when it seemed like Wax wouldn't make it, he evened the odds slightly so that he barely survived.

The entire Feruchemy discussion is separate from the Mistborn breeding program, we feel that the serial killer will most likely be the result of this breeding program, if Marasi is right, whereas our speculation are less likely and involve simple Hemalurgy. Providing they are already kidnapping Allomancers and all is going well, why stop with just Mistborn?

The fact that it is always RAFO'ed so hard suggests that it is a key plot point within either this series, or within the Cosmere, and what better way to breach the subject of Investiture to readers than to give a physical example in Scadrial, then work it out through the other Worlds. Hence, Investiture storing Soulbearer. Teamed with being a nicrosil Twinborn, he could also completely demonstrate the ability to Compound things, from a personal (and more informative) narrative than that of Wax talking about Miles, rather this Twinborn discovering the exact workings (we're talking precise figures here, such as the multiplicit rate of increased power and exponentiality graphs here, after all, what else are us nerds over on the Mistborn board going to debate about if not exact Allomantic formulae?) of Compounding, not to mention Compounding Investiture. Also, I feel that BS inserted 'Investiture' as the store as a wildcard type, to give him room to breath while he thinks of a suitably incredible power to fill the gap, as seemingly any magical power could be described as 'Investiture', so we'd have no grounds to complain whatever it turns out to be.

I was sure eugenics also included the sterilisation of 'weaker' races? That doesn't seem to be something they want to achieve, nor do they wish to raise Allomancy levels in the general public. It seems more likely that they just want to create a dictator of a power that was unprecedented.

I agree that they should just steal the powers of the women, or if they have none, take those of the child. But then I also suggested one of these children be selected for a particularly useful combination (double nicrosil, gold, etc.) and then spiked with every other power (maybe even Feruchemy). This would mean they have all powers, but their original Allomantic and Feruchemical powers would be intensely augmented.

However, I'm sure Harmony, if he didn't want this (which it is suggested he doesn't, seeing as how he backed Wax), could use Ruin's link to Hemalurgic constructs to make this new demonic overlord kill himself in his sleep, so they'd have to be careful about spiking him.

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

I was sure that the visor could be closed? Ah, but it must leave eyeslits, doesn't it.

Well, one result of my studies is that sometimes I put a lot of (or too much) attention to the exact meaning of words. To possess something describes the relation between a person and an object (or another person, since we talk about fantasy and thus slavery isn't that abolished yet). An action, as in opposition to 'omission' would require that you actually do something. There is something happening when there is action.

Of course it might be that there is always a flow of Power between Invested person and Shard, but I'd rather say, that once someone got Invested, the connection is established, and that no more action is required to keep it intact.

State is a (more or less) stable situation, while action is change. A state of action does not make sense to me, personnally.

Does this help?

This. You got it in one. I completely agree with you when you say an action is a state of change (if indeed a state can contain an action), and justly, I feel that the definition requires slight editing. Thanks for the help!

Leading on from this discussion of change, it seems slightly prophetic as to the definition of Investiture, that within it, change and stability are key features. For example, one could state that Surgebinding is a method of Investiture, just in the same way that spren are Invested objects, and in this instance the spren is the gateway through which the power flows. In this same way, spren react to change. Change, within energy cycles. When energy is channeled through a spren, it reacts. Appearing, disappearing, colour, size, sentience. All change!

See, now, you, Satsuoni, mentioned alongside that quote that when atium is burned, the energy returned to the Pits of Hathsin. Which means that, in eventuality, they reached that Shard's Pool. But how? Well I propose that when the energy from the metal is expended, in the same way as energy is placed through the metal to the user, the energy given out by the user can then return through the Focus (metal) to the Pool again.

In this way, spren are both the distributors of energy and the dustmen of it: they give it out through their Invested bonds to the Shard, the connection that they possess, into the Surgebinder; via his connection also, but to the spren. As the spren has given energy and Spiritweb to the human, it has Invested in them, and thus power through the spren is granted to the human.

Satsuoni, you mentioned that:

Not sure if the metal is absolutely necessary - see Vin and the mists, which I presume to be nearly raw Investiture when "burned". She just got most of the powers she would have is she had metals, but without. Also, I think the power will regenerate... in a while.

I feel what really happened was that she didn't 'burn' the mists, instead she realistically took Preservation, the Shard, upon herself, and the power that she contain in her small body gave her a few moments of seeming invincibility, before her Physical presence was destroyed by the power and she was forced to eject to the Spiritual Realm which can hold the Shard's power.

Like duralumin, which, btw, I assume as something that pushes on the flow of Investiture through metal, increasing its "pressure" and giving you the boost (and a sped up consumption), but maybe without a sped up consumption (and not nearly that much boost). Standard rate of burning is not nearly the absolute maximum, probably just your "pressure differential" with Preservation.

I feel that what happens in actuality with Duralumin, which is a warped piece of the power of Preservation, and thus has a single Intent, which is separate from the of the raw power, is that it simply completely destroys they metal, but from the inside (where the power flows from) outwards, which means that in the short time that the Duralumin takes to destroy the metal (which the raw power that is being converted does at a slower rate) the rate of flow is increased exponentially, giving a moment in which the power of Preservation is allowed a larger girth through which to be converted, and so the power of the magic is raised. Whereas, if you were to hit the metal with raw power, not with the Intent of destruction that Duralumin warps the power into to create the burst effect, it would simply be channeled much that same way as that of Preservation, as opposed to making a Duralumin-esque effect.

Heh.. If that is possible, I'd like to see a steelpush generated from a few tons of steel released in one second (Although that will kill the poor misting quite dead, I'd say)

As mentioned before, it is how I originally thought it'd work, before the game was out.

(Also, pewter gives you Strength, Speed, Agility, Density and increased healing rate Tap a few kilos of that in a second )

It would only kill them as much as four years worth of heat stored in Brass released in one second.

I feel that I may be forgetting something, but at the same time, just a Misting wouldn't give BS ground to cover the mysteries of Feruchemical storage, seeing as how we already know exactly what Nicrobursts can do. What we don't quite know is how Investiture storage works, not to mention when compounded. However, just a Soulbearer would be OK, unless being is Nicrosil Ferring is as useful as a Gnat.

Yes. Sir-Read-a-Lot is right, Marasi suggested it, and feels that she found the link, but she might be wrong, and when it was presented to Edwarn by Wax, he seemed unfazed. This might suggest that either he isn't concerned by Wax's knowledge or involvement, or he knows that Wax hasn't quite figured out the entire mystery. If there was no twist in another Wax Ladrian book that throws this idea out of the water, then it would be a major disappointment that it had been figured out in the first book.

Fantasy authors don't like that. It stops them writing the twenty-three other books in the series they had planned out.

Yes, I was about to suggest that. While the RPG might be canonical, Brandon might still not have made his mind up about the exact use of the power, while the RPG needed information about it when it was made, and thus the information may change between the RPG and the books.

This has been enhanced by Brandon's excessive secrecy on the topic, which suggests it is more shocking or powerful than that which you state, and also I believe there was a quote in which he stated that the hero of the Second Mistborn Trilogy would be a double Nicrosil Twinborn, which implies there may be more in store about the storage of Investiture, and a way it can affect Allomancy, otherwise there would be no need to make him a Nicroburst as well.

Unless his purpose is as an anti-Metallic Arts fighter, meaning that he can counter both Mistings and Ferrings, using the two nicrosil abilities. However I doubt that this parallel exists between Feruchemical metals and Allomantic metals, as it doesn't appear to ring with the other metals, nor do there seem to be pairs/opposites in the normal grouping, or even in comparison between the two Arts.

I see what you're saying I really do. I just think it is unrealistic, though, I will not rule it out, as some might consider mine to be also. I just feel that if it was this simple to name, they would have just said that Nicrosil 'stores Spiritual Energy', whereas by saying it store Investiture, they are trying to sum up alot of uses in a single word.

But, in regards to your power, I understand what you're saying and I will, conversely, try to add to your views (though my personal opinion still holds at this given moment).

Firstly, what I will dub The Law of Energy Diffusion, long for LED, is your first point. You state that energy that is leaked into the body in innumerable forms works in the same way as water content in a tree: where the energy is spilling from draws this excess energy to plug the hole. Blood works this way, so that when you cut yourself, the clot is immediate.

However, there are only a handful of instances in Feruchemical storage that this seems to apply to. Speed, for example, is a universal force, and thus it doesn't seem possible to control the individual speeds, of your limbs, but then it the same way, it is impossible for one limb to be, in contrast to full bodily speed, any faster than the other. In health, I have already explained that the 'healing' that a Bloodmaker stores cannot possibly be anything resembling immune response. It might seem this way because when they store, they get sick easily, but when they draw, it resembles more of a regenerative wave, being capable of copying destroyed limbs, which exceeds mere 'healing'. And thus, I'll bet that the healing force happens in every area of the body at the same time, meaning that while it seems specific areas are targeted, in fact all areas are being 'healed' its just the effect is only noticeable in areas that indeed require healing.

Secondly, I get what you're saying about the use of Spiritual energy to power Allomancy. The problem is, if you're an Allomancer, and the metal and your sDNA is all that is required to reform this 'Spiritual energy' into the power of, say, Copper, then why not just burn the copper? Presumably, this conversion cannot take place if the metal (and its Spiritual signature) aren't present, and thus, you might as well just use Preservation's power as opposed to your own, as it is probable that when this power is expended in the Coppercloud, it is irretrievable, and so you have just burned away part of your soul.

Next, about the use of this Spiritual energy to power or enhance Allomantic power that is already flowing through the metal. However, if my logic was correct, you have already stated that for the above paragraph's power to happen in the first place, it must be converted through you and the metal, however when Preservation's power is already flowing through the metal to the brim (there is a limit to how must can be Pulled through at once, hence Allomancy's limitations), then how could you possibly add your Spiritual energy to enhance the flow, when it will just have to wait in line just like Preservation's.

However, there is one potential use that I can see forming from storing raw Spiritual energy. But presumably, to make use of the nicrosil's power in the first place, you are most likely a Mistborn, or at least a Twinborn, and if I'm correct and by storing the Allomantic power that stem's from Allomancy is possible, then, firstly, you can stop an Allomancer from accessing Preservation's store (maybe unlikely), or at the very least not only take in pure Spiritual energy but the Allomantic energy too, as I suggested, such as the power of Steelpushing or Copperclouding. But, if this is that case, and you're a Mistborn, then why no just burn the nicrosil to produce the same effect, and shock others with an external Duralumin effect?

EDIT: Thanks for the tip Satsuoni! Should make it easier.

Don't you dare!

@Odium

I have problems with the wording 'the act of possessing'. Might be I'm no native speaker, but possessing is rather a state than an act, isn't it?

Investiture as a word seems to me to be an action. There has to be someone who invests. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

Yet, that does not mean, that I disagree entirely with you. I see the importance of the state of possessing the connection. Also Brandon has said that Investiture happens through genetics (allomancy and feruchemy), the Shaod (AonDor) or what you do (Surgebinding). There is an event that gets you Invested. That event would be the Investiture.

And, about snapping. I've always had problems with that. Because of what Brandon said. Investiture would happen through genetics on Scadrial. So the potential (the spirit-level) is already high enough, you are Invested, the snapping only gets you access to use the Power, permitting acts of magic. Though, I'm really no Mistborn-expert.

Once more, we seem to agree on most of what we say, but disagree on some slight parts

It does seem indeed. I too am unsure whether or not it is possible to be in the act of possessing a connection, but while 'possession' is a state, ie, in the state of possession of a connection, I feel that 'possessing' is an action, and thusly must be acted out. Does that make sense? I myself am unsure.

Along the lines of verb confusion, I completely agree with you that 'Investiture' as in the broad term, as given by my definition, imply a state of action, in that 'Investiture' is the state of 'Investing', in much the same way as I believe 'Possession' being the the state of 'Possessing', and when you 'preserve' something, you have carried out 'Preservation'.

I agree with your post in entirety, save for the wording of the definition, which can always be altered, if you believe, as I do that the storage of 'Investiture' must separate the verb of Investing to an actual object, a noun, that it is possible to coalesce. In simplicity, I believe that the storage of Investiture is differentiated from the action of possession of a connection as defined by 'Investiture' as a whole, due to the fact that when stored, Investiture becomes a 'thing' as opposed to an 'action'.

Well, I'll still hold to my idea (I think you read my original post), that investiture drawn in its raw form is like mists for Vin - they power those powers you have, at first, favoring the stronger or better accentuated ones, then they give you lesser powers, but at the cost of essentially ripping holes in your Spiritweb, possibly causing irreversible damage, and then you go boom, and hope sazed won't mind taking care of your bodyless self.

Also, I think the name comes from their ability to store their souls, i.e. that part of preservation that makes humans (on Scadrial) sentient, becoming .well..not sure... more like animals? Like lifeless? for a while, and gaining almost every attribute, but just a little, when drawing it back.

See, the hard thing is, I like the sound of your power. It is a neat power to have, with appropriate risks and 'pitfalls' in it, just the same as mine saying that there must be Gnats. However, no matter how cool it is, I must argue that it is both slightly overpowered and also doesn't follow the logic of Feruchemy: you get out what you put in. Pure and simple. If you store five days of health, there will be five days worth in the ring. Not six, not four. In the same way, one would assume that no matter how much 'raw Spirituality' that you put into the nicrosilmind, you'd only get the raw power out. And on its own, it can't effectuate any magic on the Planes, except maybe the Spiritual. And because a Feruchemist is a Physical entity, it can't use this Spiritual-tailored energy in the same way s a Shard doesn't use Allomancy, because it is Allomancy.

Do you see my problem with it? Also, in regards to my views on Investiture storage, I'm the first to admit there are problems with it, and the potential uselessness of it is one. But on its own, your power too wouldn't effectuate anything, because the only power you have to 'sharpen' with the Spiritual energy (presuming you can do anything of the kind with it at all) is your ability to store the Spiritual energy you are using to increase your powers anyway. It's impossible to tap and store at the same time, and even if it was, it would nullify out.

EDIT: Ninja'd. I will wait for your second post and reply to them both one after the other.

I think that, in a sense, this might be the point of Investiture as a storage. Powerful for Mistborn, not so much for everyone else. After all, if Allomancy has some powers that are, singularly, useless, then surely Feruchemy must have some 'holes' too, lest it be overpowered if a Feruchemist (full) came along and could suddenly increase his power exponentially using increased power!

You mention that Soulbearing is being 'studied', however it is also mentioned in the AA that the Terris peoples don't know what they're doing when they employ this power. Which one might assume could mean that they don't know if it is working or not, or if they are using it correctly. I still feel it is appropriate to have one 'Gnat' in a Metallic Art. After all, Allomancy has Duralumin and Aluminium, and Hemalurgy has decay and the law of constructs (easily corrupted by Emotional Allomancy).

One thing does bug me about the twisted power of Allomancy being the storage for 'Investiture'. It seems that all other Feruchemical storages can be stored whenever the user wishes. One always have weight to be stored, and speed, and warmth, and wakefulness, but it is not constantly that the connection to Preservation is being employed, or that one is burning a metal. I may come up with revisions to my idea based around this point.

One would assume it would be water-proof, seeing how it doesn't have any chinks in the plating (however the water may be able to get into slits that a blade couldn't), so unless he had oxygen, he'd pretty quickly breath himself out.

It almost feels as though Brandon will pull the entire 'sympathy deserving villain' plot device, as if Odium has been shunned down and then when the characters stop him the audience almost feels bad because he was actually the worst off and his plot for world domination was just a desperate grab for attention from the entire Cosmere, due to his hideous looks and bad people skills meaning that he has never even seen such a thing a Love, nor Devotion, which was why Aona and Skai were first on his 'hit-list' of retribution.

I think that a 'wildcard', any Feruchemical store-type Nicolsilmind would be far too overpower for Brandon to consider it. Unless that's the point of having a double-Nicrosil Twinborn in the next trilogy.