Odium's_Shard

It's not that you must experience the depths of cold, but more, as Shardlet said, that 'cold' is the other end of the spectrum, and so to achieve 'average', you must have an element of both hot and cold.

 

Succinctly put, if you only ever felt heat, it is not 'hot'. That's 'normal' to you. Only if you experience a lower temperature, or something at the opposite end of the spectrum to whatever it is you're feeling, can you fully appreciate what it was that you felt before. To clarify, human understanding is entirely relative to past experiences and feelings. To fully understand, you must have a point of comparison.

I'm sure that burning the tapered bar, you would have to burn from one end to another. Slowly you would get more and more sick if ever you could keep burning it til you broke through til the other side and got less and less sick til you get to the other metal.

 

Was it shown that a mix of two Allomantic metals still makes you sick though? If not... the effects of this bar or other composites would be most interesting.

Perhaps while the Shards may have prevailed Intents, the World they live on and the people they Invest in and share it with influences them like any other because of their human qualities as a Shardholder. 

 

Like how Preservation determined to put a part of himself into the people of Scadrial, maybe he endeared to them. Shardholders are humans too, perhaps twisted by their Shard's Intent.

Again, the alignment of three holes and a water source press down on them.

If you have a metal, that is or is not Allomantically sound, and not the spiritual permissions, nothing happens.

If you have spiritual permissions to burn any metal, but it doesn't correlate with the Allomantic ones, then something happens to you to make you very sick.

 

If it slightly aligns, power still trickles through. And makes you sick.

Mistborns sDNA compared to Misting, is probably the same 'segments' that allow to channel each individually. Because Mistings aren't more powerful, this means that they have the same potential as a Mistborn in just one metal, they have 1/16th of the sDNA. They have, say, a 'Steel marker', a hole, that allows Power to flow through into the Physical Realm.

But you see what I mean even without any direct opposite, you cannot know Odium without having Love/Devotion to compare it with. This isn't important or consequential, just perhaps an interesting residue of the pieces Adonalsium fell into, and perhaps a hint that it can be put back together again once these two opposing forces are reconciled under a presence (Harmony).

Maybe also scrolling through memories to satisfy boredom... 

No no I don't argue that Mistings can see more than one metal, but that the reason they can only see the one is to do with the Cognitive recognition of the alignment of Physical Foci and Spiritual permissions allowing some kind of actions (Power draw).

Perhaps he cannot feel for Allomantic metals he is not familiar with, or those metals were not readily available for him to know, otherwise he would have suggested there were more than 10 metals. 

 

But as to the point about Power sight. Mistings you say only see their metal as a reserve... but surely a Lurcher and a Coinshot still see ALL metals as points of Power. Most likely, when they're in the body, only avenues that line up with the correct sDNA (i.e. your metal due to the limitation of your sDNA) are available Cognitively (presumably thats how they 'feel' metals inside of them) to draw through. For Mistborn I presume their sDNA says something like 'can draw Power of Preservation through any focus', and since ALL metals, even non-Allomantic metals, are foci on Scadrial, or at least for the Metallic Arts, then all metals line up with the sDNA permissions, it just happens that they link to 'nothing' in the actual Power source.

 

As to why this would make them sick...? Maybe there is energy in the Spiritual Realm that when pulled through (instead of pure Power of Creation) pollutes the body? This is something that needs clarifying. Along with the 'if Mistborn can sense all metals and attempt to use them, can full Feruchemists sense all metals and try to store in them? What is the result?' question.

 

Odium's_Shard

Yes this is logical. But even subconsciously, the sDNA patch would allow him to reach towards that Power (if it was available on Roshar, this isn't clear, is it?) even if he didn't know he was performing Allomancy. The Cognitive presence of the humanoid is still working to acheive something even if it is not sure what that something is, or is driven by desperation.

 

And I think the point about balance needs to be explored/negated/debunked. There must be some things in the Cosmere which are not balanced by something else. If there isn't, this could give hints to other things.

I think you're right about the mutual aims, that the aims of opposing Shards fulfill each other. The need to Destroy something can only be fulfilled once something is Created.

 

Maybe, linking to other Realmatic thoughts, this is the same with other things in the Cosmere.

Balance. Perhaps the mere existence of the Cosmere, and Adonalsium within it, nothingness, and everything, empty, complete, demands it in all aspects of the world.

I think it's just his rampant insanity, personally. Genius is a two-sided coin.

 

True insanity is insanity that a person reasons themselves out of.

If any of these sound familiar, you are most likely a future psychopath:

 

"But it was for the greater good of humanity."

"It was necessary to kill people as part of a greater plan to save them, sometime very far into an unknown future."

"My oath requires me to kill these hundreds of people on pure principle."

"This is pretty fun."

It could just be that while the Intents of those two Shards are merged, their power deficit, the Power currently on loan, is then shared, and doesn't disappear.

 

Presumably, Adonalsium cannot be fully reformed until all of this deficit is sadly collected. Maybe, a la chemistry, when Shards coalesce and rejoin the energy holding them separate is also released. I would think that holding all of Adonalsium closely together in such a way as that it would coalesce spontaneously would produce a Shattering all over again. Maybe Adonalsium is really just the Big Bang of the Cosmere, and its very formation leads to its very destruction, creating new and interesting eras of magic and mystery and adventure time and time again.

That's a cool idea but improbable because people and civilization existed at the time Adonalsium was fully formed.

 

Also, on the line of Investiture. Does the Shard choose to Invest, or is that choice made for them by the nature of the magic and the nature of the Shardworld upon which they reside and the Shardic interactions that arise? For Allomancy, the key was placed in humanity by the Lerasium, the Physical form of the Shard, but all humans also contain a piece of Preservation that was placed in them by Leras.

 

So this asks the questions: would the Lerasium only affect those who had this Preservation-aspect, or is the Physical form a necessity for Shards? If it is a necessity and it can affect those that aren't Invested by the Shard by choice, then there is a certain opening by which people could Invest themselves, give themselves access to the Shard's Power. While they are Invested, have they Invested themselves, meaning the Shard has to Invest Power, or has the Shard, by choice, given aspects of its Power to mere mortals for the fun of it?

These points are true. As to the reformation of a Shard, I presume this must be done under Intent and the Cognitive presence of a Shardbearer, they wouldn't just coalesce over millennia. 

 

I agree with the points that these numbers might not be CAUSED by the inherent properties of Shardic interaction but instead be designed into the system by the Shardbearer. This asks the question as to how much control a Shardbearer has over the magic systems in place so that they can make these numbers crop up. Or if Leras put hints to 16 metals all over the place to guide Vin to it, why there were 16 in the first place if Leras did not control that factor.

I agree with Satsuoni on a few points. It would be interesting to think that metals are a constant opening, again via RAM style Spiritual memory slots, to the Power of Preservation. However this would ask the question as to how this energy is then passed back into the loop, but that is the same with any usage of Allomany (I presume then that Power can permeate 'back' through a metal after completing its effect, if Power can always permeate out through one).

 

About the subconscious thing, I always think there is an Intent. And Intent to save yourself, and Intent to save the world, and Intent to stop a wild Inquisitor killing your beloved husband, to save your squad from a hail of arrows. Whether or not you know what you are grasping at, you are still grasping for something. You need it. And from Wheel of Time, "the key to finding something is need". In respect to subconsciousness, do we really know where the mind flees at that point, or that it is not still active Cognitively but that whatever sent it unconscious is a severing of the link with the Physical body that can be rekindled through the Spiritual bridge to it.

 

I feel that the foci, as Satsuoni pointed out, are always gateways to Power. It is when humans/Surgebinders/Awakeners/Allomancers, take hold of this Power gateway, and have the right to do so (something to do with holding it in both the Physical and Spiritual sense to fully channel through it, this requires sDNA), that the Power is put to a use. 

 

You saw Power still bleeds through broken Aons. It just has not express purpose and very little gets through, so the Aon bursts without event, because it is poorly aligned with the Power of the Shard.

Ok, multiple reply time! I am unsure as to whether 16 is a natural number, inherent, but that fact that 10 is also inherent is supplementary to the notions that is the presence and fact of 16 Shards that determines important number in magic systems and on Shardworlds, as I originally said.

 

In response to Windrunner, its a shame Lightsong is very unclear with 'about 50'. But the issue here is that there aren't any known important numbers that correlate with that. But along the same vein, the number 10 is ingrained in the Ten Heightenings, the magic system which is the only place we have seen important numbers. 10 seems to be the system number of a Shard that doesn't merge with its opposite.

 

Similarly, this could imply that Endowment can separate into any number or size of pieces it wants so long as it isn't completely consumed, I assume? Because it the difference in the size of Splinters is evident in the Divine Breath compared to the single Breath, and once this is established, then there is only an upper limit to the number of Splinters based on the ratio of Breaths to Divine Breaths currently 'on loan'. This poses the interesting question as to whether on Nalthis there is an upper limit to population, or if population breached a certain limit, Endowment would be exhausted, if this is possible? Would its Intent and ability be lost until until Breaths could coalesce on the Spiritual plane when enough people die to reform the Shard? Does the Shard reform?

 

The question of whether or not a Shard individually can reform is paramount to whether Adonalsium ever can. If base Shards cannot, then Adonalsium cannot. But Shards can retain Power given out on loan so long as its base Intent and existence is assured. If when the Shard is exhausted it can reform, barring whatever caused the Shattering, Adonalsium theoretically can even after its mutual Intent is Shattered.

Ok. It seems I have been proved wrong on the Focus in all Three Realms, though this opens the doors for what constitutes a Focus (a full definition) as well as whether 'something' has to be present in all Three Realms. For example, even if Mental Commands are given through a Cognitive Focus as opposed to Physical, is there something Physical that then arises because of this.

 

Also, if there is no Intent, as you say Kaladin's Surgebinding of desperation, is there something there Cognitively allowing it (the spren's presence through the Nahel bond?).

 

Also if the gem colour is the focus, or cut, or the gem itself, is that not to say that a certain Intent is forcing the circle through the square, limiting the capabilities of the Power it is transmitting through the wrong or badly formed (loose Command, bad Alloy) Focus.

Because if there was an upper boundary, the math nerds here would be most interested to see if the number of combinations or magic systems or number of Returned or metals correlates directly to the occupant Shards of the Shardworld, or the combination of Shards with multiple Intents, or what it says about certain Shards.

 

It could even be used to prove or postulate how many Shards are on Nalthis or Roshar and how they link together.

Sounded familiar and its listed on the coppermind as a 10th heightening power. Unsure if that was confirmed in the book or outside.

 

"A third ability granted is the ability to give commands mentally (Mental Command), although this is said to be difficult to learn. This is the ability that allowed the God Kings of Hallandren to pass on their breaths after their tongues were removed."

 

Yeah, reckon there is a component for each realm like that but "focus" is the wrong word for the spiritual and mental components.

 

Yes this is what I stated; these are just temporary names. Realistically I was just pointing out a convenient love triangle between Intent, sDNA and Foci in the formation of any magic, that just happens to fall along the boundaries of Realmatic Theory. To me, there is no coincidence even if these other two aren't Foci at all. Apart from those three things all that is necessary is a fuel, a conduit (or maybe this just comes with Cognitive presence) and the Shardic power and its own limitations based on the way it Splintered from Adonalsium. 

I don't see shattering necessarily having a fixed size. Endowment can split off a ton of Divine Breaths willingly, after all.

 

Maybe it can, maybe it can't. What is the number of Returned that are present at any one time? Do you know?

If we do not know, or it isn't mentioned, that there is a limit, or that a limit has not been reached, no-one can ever disprove that there is a limit (within reasonable argument, though if there were 100 Returned, it might be safe to assume there are no higher numbers related to Adonalsium or the Shard of it).

 

If there is less than 16 Returned, or less than 10, both of these numbers are known to be important in the Cosmere for different reasons, and could provide an upper bound for Returned. If not, there could be higher important numbers that we don't know about.

Ok, quickly working through this of a lunchtime break. I'm going to clarify the Spiritual Focus because the hardest one you found to determine was the Spiritual Focus. 
 
Spiritual Focus on:
 
Sel: The Spiritual Focus here is whatever the altering of sDNA becoming an Elantrian facilitates. Also, in terms of Forgery, there is the potential for a temporary Spiritual connection based on the Intent of Cognition and whatever the Shard allows in terms of sDNA.
 
Nalthis: The Command forms a Physical presence and is interpreted by the Cognitive knowledge of language. In this way, the Breaths could be viewed as either Fuel or Spiritual connection to Endowment. But since colour is a fuel here, most likely each person is born with a connection to Endowment that they can pass on via the Intent of the Shard to do so. That this connection is consumed is telling towards the nature of that connection as temporary and material.

 

Scadrial: The sDNA that defines an Allomancer, a connection to the Shardic presence of Leras/Preservation as passed into the bloodstream by the initial feeding of Lerasium to the Lord Ruler's most trusted nobles. Is anyone sure what gave the original Feruchemists their Feruchemical ability? I can't remember reading anything that might hint to that.

 

Roshar: This must be tied to spren and the idea of the Nahel Bond, because if spren are embodiments of ideals or purposes, then they sound like a perfect bridge between Spiritual manifestation and the validity of Intent as defined by Cognition of the Conduit.

 

TL;DR The spiritual focus might well just be the manifestation of a Physical Conduit's sDNA in a tangible and usable form in the Spiritual Realm. The two might well be exhaustive or transgressive to one another depending on situation.

 

In reply to WeiryWriter:

Commands do not need to be spoken aloud, though only the God Kings have exhibited this ability.

 

I do not believe that there are three foci for each world, mostly because I don't feel it is substantiated by any of the texts or interviews I have read.  Brandon has said that the focus for allomancy is metal, not one of the foci for allomancy is metal.

 

The God Kings maybe have this ability due to their high Breath count, or all Returned may have this ability because of the way that their Cognitive presence is entirely in the hold and at the whim of the Shard Endowment, potentially allowing their Cognition to directly impact the Power waiting for them in the Spiritual Realm.

 

Secondly, in reference to the possibility of Realmatic Focus, what you say is entirely likely. I just feel that while the Cognitive and Spiritual foci are entirely additive, and most likely do not fall under the definition of 'focus', while they may inherently be tied to the notion of a Focus in the Physical Realm, then they are still paramount in determining the sequence of magical empowerment in the Cosmere.

 

While they maybe fall under different names other than Spiritual Focus (which is at this stage basically the manifestation or result in the Spiritual Realm of a Conduit's sDNA and the two are almost one and the same if not exhaustive) and Cognitive Focus, which one might well just call and Intent or a thought or even just having the base amount of wits to think about performing magic, they are still essential and you must agree!

 

Without an intent to perform magic or the correct access key or permission to do so, regardless of whether you have the fuel or focus to hand, you must agree that magic simply cannot occur in the Cosmere. If you can show me a case where either of these things have, knowingly or noted or not, been missing and magic has still occurred, then I will accede to you.

Here's my attempt at a definition.

 

"A focus is a construct used when accessing the powers of creation that helps limit and shape the end effect. This is done by creating a form or pattern that provides a conduit for only a select "pulse length and frequency" of the power of creation. The focus can be bypassed under the right conditions, such as by directly consuming the Body of a Shard."

 

This. Just this. Sorry for being unclear in my above post, I was getting a bit excited by the molecular theory and mixing some words and definitions.

 

For me, this is what the focus is. For me, while the foci might not actually facilitate the gateway between the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm, it is paramount in determining the exact power that is allowed through. As  Senor Feesh said, it may be the sDNA of the Conduit or User combined with their Cognitive presence that validates and begins the transfer (presumably from the User's Spiritual presence, determined by their sDNA, being opened as a Conduit by their Cognitive thought) of the Power of Creation into the Physical Realm.

 

I officially support this as the definition of a Focus (because while vague, it defines all foci we know of).

 

As for Isomere's comments about Nalthis and Sel, as I said while these aren't my strong points I would like to clarify how I perceive their Foci and why they link to your definition.

 

On Sel, the form of the Aon determines directly what sort of power is allowed through it. The Cognitive desire to draw the Aon opens up a Spiritual gateway (if the user is an Elantrian, presumably having special sDNA) that allows a tracer to be drawn in the air or on the surface. Once this tracer is then thought to be correct, i.e the Cognitive presence tying it down and keeping the Spiritual Realm at bay is removed and the Spiritual Energy is allowed to flow out of the Aon (tied to the user's Spiritual presence) in whatever form the Aon allows/specifies, which in reality means that a misdrawn or incorrect Aon doesn't allowed any energy through.

 

On Nalthis, the Command is a Physical Focus, because it is spoken in the Physical Realm. (Its been a while since I've read Warbreaker, can someone enlighten me as to whether Awakening can be done with mental Commands, not just spoken?). In this way, it is the phrasing and Intent placed once again by a Cognitive Presence onto a Physical manifestation that allows it to conduct between the Conduit's Spiritual Presence and out through the Physical foci, determining the binding effect of Awakening. 

 

What I'm really trying to say is that there might well be three Foci each tied to one another but in all Three Realms that determine the effects of magic in the Cosmere.

 

The Physical Focus provides a defining process for the Spiritual energy flowing through it, determining effect.

 

The Spiritual Focus provides a node in the Spiritual Realm using the sDNA of the Conduit which determines where the Power in the Spiritual Realm is flowing to in the Physical Realm. Think of the Physical Realm as a large RAM system of Conduits. This node would provide the access code that encodes the position of the Conduit accessing the power. 

 

Finally, the Cognitive Focus provides the motivation and Intent that when both conditions are met (fuel and two Foci ready) facilitates interaction between the Physical and Spiritual Realms.

 

On Elantris this means that the Cognitive Focus can hold the Aon while it is Physically drawn, on Scadrial the Intent to draw on a metal reserve, on Roshar the Intent to turn Stormlight into manifestations of Power. On Nalthis, the Command physically spoken is linked to the Cognitive definition and interpretation of that Command that draws through from the Spiritual Realm and shapes that Power, albeit in a Physical form that is determined not to be nonsensical by the Cognitive bridge.

 

If you read all of this, here is a medal. 

 

TL;DR Random thoughts in response to Isomere, and then a half formed potential theory about Realmatic Focus not just Physical Focus. Thsi theory is based upon all of my previous ideas and theories about the Cosmere that have been posted all over the place, and are still held in my mind, and almost everything I have said might have been proved wrong in the time I have been gone making this theory redundant. But as to my knowledge, there is no WoB on this topic on Three Foci.

 

Odium's_Shard

This is quite possible. This then raises the question about how Miles would know of these Men of Red and Gold before their invasion. Possibly similar to the Rohsarian death cries. Maybe they live on Scadrial for quite some time (even setting up a cigar company) in an attempt to ingratiate themselves and start studying Allomancy and Feruchemy and Hemalurgy so as to bring the information (and perhaps even information about Allomancy and its metallic combinations with Atium and Lerasium that the people of Scadrial don't know) back to Nalthis to mount and invasion (presumably because their magic doesn't work on Scadrial so they use Hemalurgy to transplant Allomancy and Feruchemy into the Nalthians) using this metallic compound they have discovered to great effect. 

I would suppose that considering that the Allomancers that told Vin that Pewter was the only metal that could be burned while sleeping/unconscious were the same ones who did not know about the presence of the other 7 metals, then there were a few gaps in their knowledge where they were unable to conduct safe experiments due to the presence of the Lord Ruler's Seekers.

 

Maybe more of the things we were told by them are untrue.

That's a cool thought, what if you became a Nicrosil savant. What sort of rise in power would someone experience from that? Maybe enough to kill someone burning Tin if you used a torch!

Hi! I'm back! Someone somewhere might remember me, and I've been away a while on university business, but I'm back to bring in my opinions on the matter because I have quite a set personal understanding of the way things on Roshar and Scadrial work (I'm not so familiar with the systems in Warbreaker and Elantris, still fitting them in).

 

I feel that several things are essential to casting any sort of magic or employing any sort of ability anywhere in the Cosmere.

 

Focus, as we are trying to define, seems like the gateway between Power, Shardic Power, in the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This may be due to the kind of Shard that you are trying to access, and its storage point/type, or the Shardworld you reside in (either the Spiritual location or Physical location).

 

Fuel, whatever you want to call it, something who's energy is taken up in the process, maybe material energy, such as metals and their atomic energy, or mystic energy like Stormlight, presumably to preserve balance between the Physical and Spiritual Realms.

 

Conduit, like an Allomancer, or Soulcaster, or any type of magic user. Most likely to provide both the motivation and the will of the Power to use the gateway provided by the focus, a presence in the Cognitive Realm that facilitates Power transfer and formation.

 

Shard, or Sliver, potentially (such as Atium/Vin/the Storm) to provide the energy and its type and uses, whether determined by Shardworld, user, or Shard, something there must be deploying the energies of Creation remnant from Adonalsium.

 

Using these objects, my personal interpretation of the Foci, as I have stated already, is that it facilitates the movement of certain Power through into the Physical Realm. On Rosher, this might be the gems, or the molecular structure of both the gems and Humans, allowing Kaladin to hold the Stormlight. Presumably on Scadrial, the reason that the metal is consumed is because that is the source of Physical energy at hand that can be swapped for Spiritual energy. Similarly, on Rosher, the Stormlight is held in the flesh or the gem, and its molecular structure facilitates it being swapped for the Spiritual Energy that Kaladin's, or the Windrunner's, Cognitive presence can then interpret into the powers Kaladin and Windrunners and all Knights use.

 

It could be theorised then, if only from these two foci, one definite and one only guessed at, that the Focus is almost always the structure of an object, but that structure determines the object that is the focus. For example, even if the focus for all systems was molecular structure, then its only the structure of certain metals that allow Allomantic power, and only that of certain gems and people to perform Windrunners' powers.