Odium's_Shard

Yes! This I really agree with.

I will keep a log of changes to the main post at the bottom of the OP as well as in the posts of which they are announced:

Electrum has become a Mental Feruchemical metal.

Tin has replaced it in the Physical (Body) quadrant, as this seems to fit much better than determination as a Physical sense.

This change just makes the entire thing flow a bit better, as electrum is no longer 'odd'.

If Rand is a character from WoT (I'm pretty sure he is? I'll really look stupid if it isn't), then I have to tell you that WoT isn't a Shardworld, meaning events in it are not Cosmere-canon.

But lets be honest, the best weapon against Shardbearers is, well... Shards. I believe there are two popular sayings along these lines.

Both popular, historically literary examples.

So, who knows, seeing the blasphemy of his most trusted servants and capable warriors joining the other side, and turning away from the Light, might have given the poor old (4.5 billion years?) man a heart attack.

say, you take a mistwraith and turn it into a kandra-- perhaps give it the blessing of presence. Then you put a copper hemalurgic spike through this barely sentient baby kandra's heart and steal memory. Could it in fact steal an ability from a Kandra? Would the baby Kandra die or continue to exist with a terrible mental handicap? Would the hemalurgic charge in its spikes be diminished? How much of a hemalurgic charge would be in this new hemalurgic spike? If you took that now-brainless kandra and removed its blessing, then gave it a different blessing and repeated the process, how many fully charged hemalurgic spikes could you create?

So in essence, you are suggesting that if you took the only 'netal fortitude' of a baby Kandra, or human infant (if it could survive the spike), say, directly after giving it sentience then steal it's first thoughts, that it would then remove (and possibly store) that sentience?

Personally I doubt this would happen, as for me the definition of 'sentient' is to be able to develop its own thoughts, and so if it is in fact a Kandra, with the Blessing of Presence, it shouldn't affect it any more than the mental scar of being stabbed as a baby. But then again, it might store sentience while the Kandra continues to possess it, and we're not completely sure how one can be 'mentally fortunate'.

Thanks for the confirmation there. I thought it didn't quite fit. I'll separate the Physical quadrants this way: Internal and External. Physically affects the world around you, Physically affect yourself. Still works as Physical and Body. But Electrum does trouble me. Need someone else's opinion on that.

After all, if you take the Hemalurgic spike from them, it effectively untwists the complicated processes in their body that stops them from dying with a spike through the heart, and causes immediate death of the target and the stealing of their powers for your side...

I can see very interesting problems and fights arising in the future of Scadrial when the Metallic Arts become an almost fine science. Hemalurgy might become a taboo, like stem cell research, or an invaluable tool. Problem is, if it is released to the wider public in all its glory, there would be chaos. New serial killings, for one...

It might just end up being a classified governmental tool.

So, I looked around for a bit, and I couldn't see a thread where people argued about exactly where all of the powers fall in regards to Temporal, Physical, Mental and Enhancement, if indeed these parallels even exist between Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I decided to change that. Her's my list, please propose your own revisions, and also help me decide which goes where! Thanks in advance. Obviously, Allomancy is already decided, but I'll list it anyway.

Allomancy:

Physical

Tin: Int. Increase senses (O)

Pewter: Int. Strength, increased bodily function, speed (A)

Iron: Ext. Pulls metals (O)

Steel: Ext. Pushes metals (A)

Mental

Copper: Int. Creates an area from which no Allomantic pulses escape (O)

Bronze: Int. Allows user to hear Allomantic pulses (A)

Zinc: Ext. Pulls (raises) emotions (O)

Brass: Ext. Pushes (soothes) emotions (A)

Temporal

Gold: Int. Allows the user to see a past version of themselves (O)

Electrum: Int. Allows the user to see a few of their possible features (A)

Cadmium: Ext. Creates a bubbles of stretched out time around the user (O)

Bendalloy: Ext. Creates a bubbles of compacted time around the user (A)

Enhancement

Aluminium: Int. Destroys all of the users metals (O)

Duralumin: Int. Gives an intense burst of power from currently burning metals before they are all destroyed (A)

Chromium: Ext. Destroys another users metals (O)

Nicrosil: Ext. Gives the intense destructive burst to another's burning metals (A)

Feruchemy

Physical

Iron: stores weight (O)

Steel: stores speed (A)

Brass: stores warmth/heat (A)

Pewter: stores strength (A)

Mental/Cognitive

Electrum: stores determination (A)

Zinc: stores mental speed (O)

Copper: stores memories (O)

Bronze: stores wakefulness (A)

Here's where it begins to break down. See, normally I'd be tempted to organise the following powers with 'Enhancement' and 'Temporal', which is how the segments are described on the Coppermind. But they don't mention what powers are associated with 'temporal Feruchemy', the only one I can see is Atium. Which isn't a metal that I'm going to include in the main table. So the remaining metals seem to deal with Body Functions, such as breath, calories, health, except electrum, which says determination. A body 'state', or a mental 'state'? Help me decide. So one section will be called Body. The next can only be described by me as 'Spiritual'. Conveniently, these quadrants take into account: the Three Realms, Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual, and the 'self', the Body. These four things seem to make up every object in the Cosmere. Please argue this out.

Body

Gold: stores health (O)

Tin: stores senses (O)

Cadmium: stores breath (O)

Bendalloy: stores calories/fluid (A)

Spiritual

Aluminium: stores identity (O)

Duralumin: stores connection (A)

Chromium: stores luck (O)

Nicrosil: stores Investiture(?) (A)

KEY:

(O): original metals

(A): alloyed metals

Int.: interior pair

Ext.: exterior pair

So that's the list so far. Some interesting notes: in Feruchemy, the 'higher metals' seems to retain their original alloying pairs, whereas the Mental and Physical seem to have opposing combinations of alloys and bases, with Physical having one base and three alloys, and Mental having one alloy and three bases. Also, Electrum doesn't seem to fit. Lastly, to me, warmth/heat is a Physical thing, but it could easily be converted to Mental, and tin be made a Physical thing. If this is done, then these quadrants to reform their alloy pairs.

Thanks in advance for answers and help, especially with the non-existent Hemalurgy section.

EDIT LOG:

• Tin and Electrum swap places, Tin now Feruchemical Body and Electrum now Feruchemical Mental. Flows better.
  
• Crossed out notes that are now irrelevant after changes. May add more relevant notes later. Getting late right now.
  

When I thought Warbreaker, I didn't think 'ah, lamp!', I was more interested in reviving poor arachnids and sephelopods.

What did Vin do to Elend? I might need to go back and read that.

Either way, it seems impossible. Sure, she could devote all of Preservation's power as a Shard to fuel just Elend's Allomancy, but that isn't how Shards throw magic systems around them. It's to do with leakage, as opposed to expenditure. Shards don't purposefully or consciously develop magics systems or give the power to humans, instead, the humans are exposing 'loopholes' that the Shard allows. Allomancy uses a coding within the metal and the person (which, granted, was given to that person by the piece of a Shard that Preservation gave them, Lerasium) to suck power from the pool of power, and is then let out by the person as specific magics, caused by the warping of the power through the metal, and this energy then recollects at the Shardpool.

Even if Vin could push the power at Elend, the only way I can see the power being increased is if it isn't the metal that determines the rate of flow, its the power of the metal to increase the leakage of the Shard. So, flaring the metal means you let more power drip through, which destroys the metal faster, whereas the normal rate is determined by homeostasis, the body regulating itself to stop it harming itself. So, theoretically, this explains savantism, as because they constantly defy their body's 'normal' rate, then this would surely warp them in some way. Sure, their body would absorb some residues of the power, but then it becomes almost addictive, with similar withdrawal symptoms.

But, while in theory Sazed could do it, according to his 'logic' and his mindset, he is unlikely too. Balance, decisions, individualism. Not the sort of ideals that inspire picking sides. Besides, this is beneath him in terms of planetary domination. He has other Shards to worry about, not petty squabbling between mere mortals.

True. But in the past, when a crazypants person also has metal piercing their skin, that metal tends to be hemalugically charged. It is an assumption, no doubts there, but one with at least past experience to help support it.

Most nutjobs attempt to be the most dangerous nutjob that they can manage. In the case of gold, and the bindpoint of 'the arm', we aren't sure exactly what power it would grant (determined as one in four by the bindpoint, or no power at all if 'the arm' isn't a correct bindpoint for gold), but it has been theorized over on Mistborn board (who are famous for their scientific approach to this whole Metallic Arts thing) that it steals Temporal Feruchemy. I'm not sure what classifies as 'Temporal' Feruchemy, but I'm assuming that Age is one of them.

But unless Miles is the only person in Elendel that has access to a non-existent metal, I'm assuming he doesn't actively use Atium Feruchemy, even if the goldminds were charged that way. Others I think might stand for Temporal Feruchemy: Wakefulness, Archivist (take memories through time? More mental), Steelrunner (time/speed?). None stand out particularly as a 'quadrant' in Feruchemy...

I too am not sure if there has been a definitive list of Cosmere events... but I do remember something on Brandon's site that gave the placement of a few key moments/publications. If Vasher was talking about Investiture's in Warbreaker, as well as in Alloy of Law and tWoK AA, that means that Warbreaker must come before/near the time of AoL and tWoK, in order for Vasher to firstly, still be alive, and to be developing similar concepts.

The only flaw with it being Vasher is that, while he seems to know everything there is to know about magic systems, especially creating Awakening into a fine science, there is no hint whatsoever that he has ever been to Scadrial or Roshar or Sel in order to develop personal understanding of the magic systems. However, Vasher may be using the same 'time-cheat' as Hoid and most of 17th Shard in order to remain alive, and so maybe Warbreaker happened long before AoL.

However, the AA in AoL directly relates to topics of the time, such as the newly reformed Terris peoples (or maybe it is completely irrelevant, after all do the Terris still exist? I'm Sazed would have kept them, but... I thought Keepers were all castrated by TLR), and their inability to conquer the secrets of Nicrosil, a newly found metal.

I'm still interested to know whether 17thS even know about the Southern People of Scadrial.

This has just given me a great idea. The writer of the AA always reminded me of Vasher's nonchalant personality, and he always did seem to be the most knowledgeable of the Scholars, even about other matters. Maybe he is both the Writer of the AA, and a member of Seventeenth Shard. That would explain why Hoid appeared in Warbreaker, to keep an eye on Vasher's participation in the events on Nalthis.

I'm still convinced that Seventeenth Shard are either: doing the right thing and Hoid is the villain, or Seventeenth Shard are trying to do the right thing by helping people out, but are actually causing damage to the balance of power in the Cosmere, and Hoid had to go against these good people in order to do what is right and sacrifice his personal feelings to save the Cosmere. I just don't get the sense from either the Letter in tWoK or anything else that SS mean much harm.

EDIT: I sound way too full of myself about this idea in the post, I'm sure at least somebody has already suggested Vasher is the writer of the AA, but I only just thought about it.

Hold on here. How could Sazed 'power' Wax's pewter Allomancy any more than he powers all Allomancy anyway? Wax still has to have the pewter (which I am unsure how he would get anyway) in order to funnel Harmony's power into 'pewter Allomancy', and it is the metal (and how much power can be warped at once) that sets the limit to the power of Allomancy, not the Shard.

The only reason Ruin can take hold of Hemalurgic constructs is because they have a hole in the Spiritual defenses, and so any form of power can snap them into servitude, such as Emotional Allomancy. I am still of the opinion that if Preservation hadn't died he could have taken over koloss and Steel Inquisitors as much as Ruin could.

Lastly, Hemalurgy is 'powered' by Ruin but only in the sense that it is his power that 'snips' and 'pastes' the Spiritweb information that facilitates the stealing of powers, but again this is funneled through the metal and the human body of receiver/target, and so it doesn't matter how much power Sazed pushes down, Wax wouldn't notice the difference, in the same way that there is only a certain amount of people you can file into a building at once.

So Vasher thinks that they are 'Invested BioChromatically'... Which makes it sound like they are Invested because Endowment has given them this power, and so the connection must exist from birth. Do Drabs lose this connection? Is this why they have no 'people sense', because if my ideas are right, then storing Investiture stores spiritual awareness.

But they were brothers, right?

Firstly, we have no idea when Honor was killed in relation to the Last Desolation or the Recreance, or whether both events were caused by his death, one cause his death which caused the other, or he has been killed since dissolving the Radiants.

Secondly, that was some mild thread necromancy there! Congratulations! Here's a cookie:

But my theory about the alliance still holds. Even if Cultivation was a Shard on Roshar, that doesn't in any way mean that she 'ruled' with the Three. The three could easily still be Aona, Skai and Tanavast.

And on the brother subject I got the idea that Ati and Leras were brothers. I probably sound stupid because its probably very obvious in the book, because they both had ginger hair or something, but I never noticed that when I was reading Mistborn. The reason I got the idea was because of their Shard opposition and the way in which they acted as Shards. They seemed very childish in ways.

Actually, since they can rebuild their bodies, it would just be trial and error until they picked the right spot. Tensoon moved OreSeur's blessing around inside his body when he picked it up in book 3, dissolving organs and reforming them with the spike through them. Much easier for a kandra than a human. Only one person has to die.

This really interests me. Using this information that kandra could, potentially, give multiple bind points for spikes, does that mean that kandra as well as being Hemalurgic constructs that are incredibly useful for disguise, also be used as perfect Hemalurgic 'sources'?

If the kandra could take a spike without dying from it, as might a human, does that mean they could infinitely give charge to spikes? Or do they not have enough of a 'Spiritweb' to facilitate being stolen from (after all, they require Human Attribute spikes just to maintain sentience). In conjunction, can Hemalurgic constructs be 'stolen' from. For example, say a human had a Bronze Allomancy spike (like Vin, except they didn't have Bronze Allomancy before the spike), could you then steal Allomantic Bronze from them? Would their first spike just 'swap' the charge?

Could this be used to effectively stop Hemalurgic decay, by 'storing' the charge in a human (from which it doesn't decay, whereas in a spike it does) until the charge is required, and then 'swapping' it? Or would it be simpler to just use the original spike?

But he is an outcast from his peoples. Even if his honor compels him, if he has those feelings for Shinovar, on what grounds do his people have to believe him, a Truthless. The very name implies he is not to be trusted.

You've sold me. About the milkshake.

Sure, three might have reigned, but that might not include Cultivation, she may just be an acquaintance of Honor's, or a friend, as surely you would get to know your fellow Shards? Also, the 'three' who reigned might not have done so from Roshar, but may have been an alliance around the Cosmere.

This is most strongly hinted by the wording of the prophecy, 'three of sixteen once ruled', there are sixteen Shards in total, and thus, it wasn't 'one out of three on Roshar who reign' it is 'three out of sixteen in the Cosmere'.

The most likely explanation as to why Odium now rules is because he came from his Shardworld, killed Aona, Skai and Tanavast, the 'three' in alliance, and then sets his sights on ruling their Shardworlds. Hence the danger to Roshar.

I can't agree that a spren is 'purely Investiture' in the same way that no thing can be contributed wholly of 'connection to the power of a Shard'. I feel that spren exist because of change, and change powers a transfer of energy. When this energy is transferred through a spren to perform a certain action, ie, light a fire, the wind moving, etc, then the spren receives some of this energy and comes into being. In a similar way, I feel that a spren such as Syl, is not the cause of the Nahel bond, but feeds off of, and thus exists, by the energy leaked from the 'connection' and the Investiture between a human and Honor.

So, the spren seems like it is the cause of the change in the Spiritweb of the human that allows them to take in Stormlight (can the hole in their Spiritual defense in the Spiritual plane that must be required to take in this Spiritual energy be abused or taken advantage of by Honor, in much the same way as Ruin can with Hemalurgical constructs?) and change it from raw power to a manifestation of Investiture, Gravity, Transformation, Pressure, etc, but in actual fact just thrive, scavenge almost, from the leaking energy.

Is this face rageful enough for you? Personally, I think he needs to be red.

So you're saying that OreSeur had four spikes, two Blessings? Doesn't that mean that they could, potentially, have more spikes, these ones Allomantic/Feruchemical, without too much of a risk? And now that Harmony has control, and is both sides, he probably doesn't exploit constructs (unless they turned serial killer) and so it might be safe to have all the spikes.

I understand what you are saying, so that in the same way, not all metal on Scadrial is Invested, it still is a gateway to that power?

Makes sense to me, but I agree that it, Spiritually, applies like a graft to your sDNA, enabling you to convert the power of Stormlight into a meaningful powet through yourself as the 'vessel'. So in this way, how you are Invested as a 'connection' is that the power is channeled through the spren, in much the same way as through Allomancy it is the metal.

However, I propose that unlike Allomancy, where the power comes from Preservation, which has a holder and thus a power source to distribute power from, Honor's 'power pool' is constantly leaking into the world, as there is no Cognitive presence to control its issuing of power, through the Origin, causes these Highstorms as it washes over the landscape, and can only be caught by the objects that have a Spiritual pocket in them in Roshar, gems.

Thats how I'm going to see it for now. Feel free to disagree, it just helps me flesh out my ideas.

But also recall how difficult it was for him. Much easier to throw them into the ocean with rocks tied to their limbs, if that's even necessary with that much armor weighing them down.

Or, more cynically, if you could even get a grip on them to throw that much weight anywhere.