Yados

You could always try Neverwhere to see if you like Gaiman's style. It's less dark than American Gods but very indicative of his storytelling sensibilities. Also just a great book.

See, but your metaphor isn't analogous to the situation. If you tell me you'll give me the next hundred dollars you earn and then you give me eighty from your own wallet five minutes later (Renarin didn't get a blade. That was part of the oath) that's great. But it isn't what you promised. You promised to give me the next hundred dollars you earned. You might say that the debt is paid, and I might not hold you to it, but if I do... well, you promised something very specific which you fulfilled in no way. Dalinar hasn't broken his word *yet* but if he wins a plate/blade, he either gives it to Renarin or breaks his word. I don't see the wiggle room here. Oaths are important here. The prologue to the entire series is two men, standing on a rock, talking about breaking their oath. Syl is Honor Spren, Spirit of Oaths. I think it's very important we look at who is promising what to whom and how that might play out down the line. Dalinar meant that he would get Renarin a plate and blade. He should have oathed it. But he didn't. Intent probably plays into it, but if the magic system didn't have a weakness, it wouldn't be interesting. Hell, Kaladin has great intention all through the book, but it isn't until he says the words of the Radiants that he gets that ooomph. This is Roshar. Words have power.

I was just sitting down and doing an outline for my current project and wondered if, in light of the recent Writing Excuses podcasts where Brandon, Dan, and Howard workshopped Mary's Outline, anyone would want to do some outline critiques. I feel like this could be interesting. People would get to see the sequence of the story and then make their critiques, not about the style of the writing, but the substance of the story as a whole. It's pretty easy getting caught up in the micro with these things and I have to wonder if this might do some good. If people feel more confident/see the problems with the story that they're putting together, won't that make us more likely to finish/improve the final product? Maybe we could try it out?

So it sounds like your issue with slash is that it violates canon and you hold non-canon het ships to the same standard. I think it comes down to where you think the power lies when it comes to the relationship between the author, the work, and the readers. But then, that's a literary discussion, not a shipping one.

Quoting my girlfriend, who was looking over my shoulder as I checked the post: I can't quote her hand gestures and shouting. Personally, I've just never encountered an Avengers fanfic that hasn't been about gay. I'm not even making that up for the sake of argument.

Oh gosh you and the whole internet. Are there things to write about Avengers that aren't slash? I feel like we live in different worlds.

Well, I certainly wasn't meaning to offend, and, if I did, I apologize. However, in my personal experience and research into the subject, it's been communicated to me that "Queer" is an umbrella term and often preferred by the LGBT community. Excerpts from Wikipedia pages "Queer" and "Queer Theory": I'm sure you can see why I thought it an appropriate term for use in the discussion.

oh no I mean I thought saturday was the post day. my thing's all sent.

oh wait, i got the dates wrong. nertz.

I didn't say that he broke his oath by giving Renarin plate, merely that *if* he does capture a set of plate and blade and *doesn't* give it to Renarin, he's broken his oath regardless of his other actions.

Most of you probably remember my first pass at this story, but then there are also some new faces around this last week. For those who aren't familiar with the premise, it's low fantasy, possibly YA, and it's about a world where humans only started to die of natural causes about seven hundred years ago following a huge shift in the ecology and magic of the world. The main character, Coil, lives on the outskirts of one of the last Kingdoms of Men left in the known world, still standing because it's watched over by three gods. The main character is gay, though that doesn't really factor into this bit except at the end. There's certainly no sexual content. Even though it's YA, I think I dropped two f-bombs in here. I usually do that and edit it out later. This is a much rougher draft than things I usually write For those of you who read my other take, rest assured that this is about as different an opening as could be. I really wanted to open with tension and conflict which the other version, sadly, lacked. You'll have to tell me if you think I succeeded in that. Like I said, this is rougher than most things I submit here. There are typos and possibly a sentence or two that hasn't been finished. Let's keep this round of critiques to storytelling, tension, character, scene, etc. I'm trying to be more "macro". Going over a passage endlessly just means you've wasted time when you cut out half of it the next week to incorporate new things.

I mean, I certainly believe that Dalinar sees this as his oath fulfilled. So does Renarin for that matter. At least now. And Dalinar's sacrifice probably strengthened his Nathel Bond. He hasn't broken his oath as of yet. But with emphasis on oaths and bindings in this work, I think it's important to see what exactly everyone is binding themselves to do. There may be a time in this series where everyone has to be very careful about what they oath. But right now, they don't know really about this power. Which is why I think this oath, which looks like it's been fulfilled but hasn't been carried out to its letter-- Dalinar doesn't promise to get Renarin plate but to give him the next plate and blade he wins-- is a huge gun on the mantle. Because if Dalinar does win another plate and blade and he doesn't give it to Renarin, he *is* breaking that oath.

You have to get an invite. Do you want an invite?

And I have to disagree as well. The oath was very specific: And it has been in no way fulfilled by Dalinar's actions at the end of the book.

Did Gaiman ever say that about Shadow? I always assumed Shadow was just symptomatic of the "passive main character syndrome" which is sort of ubiquitous in Gaiman's output. It's one of the few criticisms I have of him. Though it's not a big one. His stories usually fit the sort of "tourist" or "Arthur Dent" lead. I mean, when you think about it, Neverwhere is basically "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" through a dark fantasy lens. And Sandman created the Vertigo house-style of having a powerful and alien "title character" that you then "see" through a series of smaller stories from the perspective of other, more mundane, "tourist" characters. I'm not saying that Shadow isn't a nihilist too, though. But then, he's also Baldur. Who knows how that'll play into later books.

Exactly. But you forget that it's the proximity they'll be forced into by their shared goal, the protection of Dalinar, that's going to take those feelings and provide a catalyst for change on both their parts. Not only do they have to work with one another, which they would be reluctant to do for the reasons you pointed out, but they'll each grow to doubt their own outlook just a bit because each sees someone with the opposite life path/values who is just as driven towards Dalinar's ideals as they are. ... and then they become "friends". Am I the only one who feels like Renarin is going to be an antagonist in this book? Maybe it's because we really only get to see him through the eyes of Adolin and Dalinar, who have huge blindspots towards him. Maybe it's because we know that all the other Alethi nobles are uncomfortable around him because of the way he observes them. Maybe because we're about to see, by way of Renarin, someone with no power fall into immense power (shardplate) without really doing anything to earn it (sort of a theme of the book). Maybe it's because he's not a pov. But mostly because that oath Dalinar swore to him is a *huge* Chekov's Gun that could easily undo any Surgebinding Dalinar might achieve in the next few books. To explain: Dalinar swore to Renarin that the next set of plate and blade he captured will go to him. Instead, Dalinar is giving Renarin his own plate. That wasn't the oath. If Dalinar doesn't give Renarin a shardblade and a second set of plate, he's technically breaking his oath. And that could have real ramifications in this cosmology/magic system. And by that time, Renarin might have had enough of a taste of power to hold Dalinar to that oath. But yeah, I think Renarin is going to be going down a dark path in this book. Which, of course, doesn't mean he and Shallan won't necessarily get together. She has the potential for some dark paths herself.

I grew up near the Gulf of Mexico so I understand the immense power of thunder/tropical storms and the flooding/noise/damage they can cause. However, I grew up near the Gulf of Mexico, so I also understand the routine, blase "what an inconvenience let's just sit tight while it all this majesty of nature blows over" sentiment that takes over when these things happen regularly. A few times every summer.

Hah, I remember that post! I don't really ship, but I do listen to my girlfriend go on and on about how amazing the John/Sherlock ship is from BBC's Sherlock. But then that's entirely fair because it's a pretty amazing ship and is obviously half the point of the whole show despite what some writers and producers might claim. Regardless of shipping, I'm interested to see if Adolin and Kaladin have a lot of scenes together next book. They seem like they'd be good foils and have a lot of friendship potential if they could get over their obvious differences. That the set up could also breed sexual tension is merely a bonus. Also: Huh, my "tropes that get in the way of female friendships in fiction" post got down-repped. Did I offend someone?

Lol. The term "Student Union" made me check your profile. You're from Sweden. That explains a lot. A very different situation than Texas. Of course, I'm in New York these days. True, but even if there's not a culture there might still be a cultural expectation. That happens a lot with race and gender. It's subtle but permeates a society. I won't go into examples. That sounds interesting. I've always meant to read CS Friedman. Of course, the series I was going to read was the one about psychic vampire faeries on the alien planet. Black Sun something.

But only having one season isn't even a defense. It meant the pacing, character development and themes should have been tighter!

Oh, see, I didn't mean "cool girl" like action hero or tomboy, though sometimes it does mean the latter. I meant "cool girl" as the girl who has no female friends, who grew up with all brothers and that's what makes her not fit in with girls her age/not like the other girls. Usually female characters identify as it for why they have masculine traits or can do random feats of fighting/car mechanics but its also often used for the sort of socially maladjusted girl who only has guy friends. Now, of course, Shallan had no friends at all growing up (it seems) so I don't know if she'll fit the trope, but it's just a set up that set off the warning light in my head. We'll see how she's played when she has to deal with other girls her own age.

I believe that Gaiman is currently working on a one or more direct sequels to American Gods. Shadow decides to return home from Europe in Monarch of the Glen. I don't know anything about the content of the sequels beyond the fact that they feature Shadow, are set in America, and probably have to do with gods. It's also connected with the HBO adaptation of American Gods that Gaiman is currently helping write and produce. The first season is the first book and I believe the subsequent seasons would be the next books.

An excellent analysis about why Korra was a thoroughly disappointing show from a storytelling standpoint. http://chirart.tumblr.com/post/25991175534/how-you-can-have-a-bunch-of-great-ideas-but-still-storm Personally, I've been a bit ambivalent about the show since the fifth episode but I absolutely detested how it ended. It was a very frustrating thing watching the show because I liked so many of the pieces in play and the art style and the animation and the concept but grew to abhor the writing more and more every episode.

Well, to weaken my own argument, I don't necessarily see anything inherent in civilization or culture itself that would make some people inevitably find homosexuals "icky" any more than heterosexuals, people with different skin tones, or a woman's left hand. All cultures have their own baggage, but that baggage is not necessarily going to be the same. Much of Western's culture's problems/stereotypes about homosexuality are very specific to our history, enemies, and religions. That's not always going to translate when you have whole new worlds and whole new peoples. This is an interesting point. People with identities outside the norm are more likely to be close knit when they feel estranged or threatened by the majority. In a utopian "open" culture where homosexuality is accepted we would probably see a more dispersed gay demographic who didn't their sexuality as their identity any more than a heterosexual person might. Not always a good sign. The LGBT-group at my highschool was pretty soundly stamped out because the parent's board was worried that the younger students might find out what homosexuality was. But then, my school was also obliged to to teach creationist theories (though with no small amount of sarcasm) alongside evolution in the middle school Biology Class. It comes down to the surrounding culture of the campus, I'm sure. Mine had quite a liberal student body and teachers with a very conservative administration and parents board. True, but "stereotypical gay behavior" changes culture to culture. The Spartans didn't see anything unmanly about homosexuality. The Thebans viewed homosexuals as better warriors than straight people. The Athenians found having sex with young men to be a statement of power within society. Especially in Vorin Culture, homosexual people wouldn't have a cultural inclination or expectation to act one way or another. Without a gay culture of their own, they'd probably just be normal folk for their time/place aside from their sexuality. Much how Jasnah is an ardent scholar, and personifies her gender ideal within Vorin culture aside from the fact that she is a heretic. You may have cultures that think of homosexuals as waifish or girl-y and you'd probably find those kinds of traits mirrored in that culture. You may have cultures where homosexuals are thought to be powerful and overtly masculine, you'd probably still find waifish homosexuals, but would also find that breed of cultural assumption as well. Culture is a two way street. People shape it and are shaped by it in turn. (let's ignore that we're using homosexuality to mean exclusively male on male homosexuality, a somewhat shallow reading. Like I've said in another thread, "queer" is usually a better term for discussions like this because it's an umbrella term that includes transexual identity as well)

Oh, so as to the two books' relation. Same world, same city, same magic, some of the same characters but with a 10-15 year timeskip.