hypatia

I really like this, but when the name pattern is of any indication, should this Lifebrother not be the greatspren of the sibling?

With the original text of this WoB I don't think one of Hesina's parent was/is lighteyed - what else is possible? Both -as in heterochromatic - or nothing. These terms IIRC are used in countries with Vorintradition, in other countries like Iri, Rira, Shinovar this system isn't a thing. Now there is another indicator for mixed forbearers - the haircolor. Adolin p.e. with his black/yellow hair or Shallan with red hair from a Horneater forbearer. I remember Tien with his mixed black/brown hair, his small stature and his affinity for stones - perhaps one of Hesina's parents was from Shinovar?

I'm not sure, but for me it is possible that one of the things she had learned from Honor's death was to prepare/teach her own great-spren to act on her own. There's a WoB from the Jordan Con where Brandon said even if Cultivation is aware of nearly everything what's going on she rarely intervenes with the decisions of Nightwatcher - even if this decisions had a positive effect for Odium's plan. This doesn't sound good, but on second thought it looks like she is training her spren to become more independent than the Stormfather for the possibility of her own death. Perhaps this is why Taravangian also said in OB that it looks like she will perhaps die - because at one time in the past she had started to make sure that Nightwatcher wouldn't be in a similiar situation like the Sturmfather - forced to act on his own, but without being prepared to decide on his own. Over all she - whatever her name - is Cultivation. In a way this should enable her to accept death like Ruin as the natural way, but not to destroy, but to cultivate. In the last consequence this can mean she plans to cultivate an avatar with her own death - something to save not the vessel, but the intension from being splintered and cultivate her intension to a stronger level.

But if this is the thing with Moelach, if he steals infos for Odium from the dead people, than Taravangian had not only gathered death rattles with every victim in his clinic, he also had involuntary gathered more informations for Odium.

I love those snippets -and need more. My first thought - this dead person he wants to bring back/restore is the one he told Shallan in OB - the one he has promised to be at places he is needed. For me this doesn't sound like Adonalsium - someone who died when they killed Adonalsium? Someone Adonalsium killed? Perhaps with all powers together it would be possible to bring back the dead? And in the last sentence with the vengeance - I believe he is talking about Odium - Adonalsium's own wrath. I don't have the feeling Adonalsium wanted to be killed - why would in this case Frost have the opinion, they had made the situation worse and wants to do now nothing because he fears another mistake?

I was right that humans were the invaders because of the Listeners' "Song of History". And Renarin because he just wasn't like Ym and Stomp, the Truthwatcher we know. Oh and that nothing will happen with Adolin - this one just because I was so fed up with the horrors what shall happen that I blocked anything out.

Yes, this "unite against a foe" does help, but as we see mostly temporally. But his plan with the Parshmen - and I believe he had expected something more dangerous - hadn't not only affected Alethkar, every region with Parshmen would be attacked. This is also risky - what if he dies, what if someone else uses the situation to unite under his rule? It was also astounding for me that neither of his Highprinces was into this plan - not even Sadeas or Dalinar - so yes, I think it possible that Taravagian's plan with Jah Keved was inspired from this - we know they were in contact. Elhokar - there was something in OB I hadn't expected: Right, neither of the Highprinces show loyality for him, but somehow he had managed to be the king for his people. The Fused even use this when they bring Alethi in the palace to show them the blood.

@Elandera Partly I'm also this opinion, but Gavilar had the Kholin Princedom, the army and so the power, whereas Elhokar just inherited the title and nothing more. I don't see so much loyality within the Highprinces - neither for Elhokar, nor for Gavilar. But I think you're right - the problem is he died before his plans came into their own - there were anything with the crownlands - I believe this would have become in the end the new center of the kingdom and - of cause - his plan to let the reawekened Parshmen loose upon nations and Princedoms without warning, spreating chaos and death in every country with the slaves - in the end he could pick up the remains and be a real king, even possibly over more than just Alethkar. The Parshmen would in a way work for him and eleminate the opponents. Perhaps I have underestimated him.

Over all I'm at a loss what the "masterplan" of Gavilar was - he is partly responsible for this situation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he left his heir with just a title, the Princedom and with this the whole military might was for Dalinar. This at a time, where Dalinar was drinking himself slowly to death and before his visit to Cultivation - Gavilar didn't know he will change. For me this looks almost like Gavilar hadn't wanted Elhokar to be/stay the king, with this he left Elhokar like a lamb at the slaughter, dependent at the mercy of the Highprinces. More so - at the moment of his death his last thoughts weren't for his son, but again Dalinar with the cryptic "most important words...", interpreted as "The way of KINGS". All of this ends up with Elhokar, a king with no lands, no army, with a capital amidth the Princedom of his uncle before the pruning - it seems to me like a wonder he had survivrd that long.

One revelation in OB held the power to look at the books in another way - there was a pact between the Shards not to settle together on the same planet. And this changes the way to judge Odium as "god's wrath" - it looks like he acts as an enforcer for this pact and at the same time as a punisher for the Shards who didn't hold this oath. On the other side he himself also killed Shards who are dangerous for himself - perhaps in order not to break this pact himself. BUT - with this pact there should be one Shard absolutely unable to act against - this would be Honor, the one who clinges to the very wording of oaths. And what a nice coincidence that this Shard and his lover Cultivation ended up in a system with more than one habitable planet - the possibility to hold on to the words of the pact and be together nontheless. On the other hand Odium is the one who doesn't care so much about the words of an oath, but the meaning, but whereas this would be cheating, he wasn't able to act on his order - as long as Ashyn wasn't nearly destroyed and Honor had no other way than to go with his humans to Roshar. Really - why should Honor who wasn't connected to the Parshendi chill out on Roshar if humans were located on Ashyn and wait until they destroy the planet? Why would he feel responsible for this?

For me this "great revelation" had had the effect that I'm nearly salivating for book 4. Whereas I can't decide if this part of the history really is the truth and nothing but the truth, there are hints from the Listener side which are able to chamge everything again. The story starts with the so called Parshendi assassineting Gavilar. When you look then Dalinar and co.don't know the real reason - no, it wasn't because they were upset about the Parshmen. But what's more - even the Parshmen don't know what had happened - Odium forces Venli to tell them a lie. And why? Because at a time in history a group of Singers had done something similiar like the Radiants - they broke their bond to their Shard. Why would they do this, if it is just humans=aggressors and Singers=victims? And it should be a very good story when the truth for Gavilar's dead was in fact not to free the Parshmen or to fight against the humans, but to hinder the return of Odium - even for the price of extinction. This - especially that Odium sees the need to give the Parshmen a lie for what had happened in the first 2 books - is the reason why I doubt him being on the side of the Parshmen. We need the other half of the history - the story of the Lost Legion and their motivations. And I really nearly lost it when we left Venli in OB just at the moment when she started to tell the Parshmen on the ship about the ways and history of the Listeners.

I don't hate Dalinar, but I had a tough time to accept the way he was presented. Before OB I had the expectation to get a Sadeas.2 , perhaps even worse. Instead what I saw was a deeply damaged person with a "pit" in the place where now - after all the ordeal and with Cultivation's help - his personality as we know it can be found. My problem is - what has happened to him to cause this "pit"? With just "he was bad" or "now he's good"we don't do justice to his character. What I see at the end of OB was his next step, not the last one, especially because he has a consience - we excuse his deeds, but will HE excuse himself? Like it is said in the book: He is a man in change, not a changed man. His way isn't finished. At the end he starts to remember, this voices were quiet, because of the pruning, not because he has dealed with the guilt. A guilt he is now able to deal with because somehow this "void" where the Thrill had taken place is now filled with the Dalinar we know and perhaps was just suppressed. I can't see him as "evil", he wasn't barely able for any human emotion at all, be it good or bad. What I see is Gavilar using a damaged brother for his war against fellow Alethi. Therefore for me he is a much more interesting person than before, but only if there are the next steps.

@Toaster Retribution I thought the same - Ialai was unaware. But from her side it was Amaram who was untrustworthy - all he had - his title, his status, his soldiers - were only his, because she had given him the power. Now she has lost the remaining power because of his actions - even without Rock Amaram hadn't survived, Ialai had killed him herself. All of this is possibly again the motive of Gavilar - Odium is the common enemy like the awakened Parshmen - this can end in unity.

I've also had problems with Dalinar - so much that right after OB I had to read the scene with Oathbringer from WoK and the bridgecrews to remind me why I loved him. My problem is not that I see him as sadistic, I had expected a warlord, fighting for something, killing for something, not a disfunctional human being. Mostly he didn't give a damnation for kingdom or power, he just kills the people Gavilar points at and isn't interested in any reason. Even the wording - monster, beast, animal, leashed/unleashed - reminds me more of a fierce fighting dog barely controled.and without any agenda of his own. The thrill - he isn't the only one who feels the influence, but for me it looks like he was bonded to him similiar to Asuedan and Amaram with another unmade. I even thought of the idea of Dalinar being the result of the first experiment of his brother with the unmade. Another thing is redemption - yes, Evi has perhaps forgiven him, but the little Edgedancer in me remembers all his other victims - not the soldiers, the collateral damage, the children of Rathalas, the families - and hopes there will be more in the next books. One voice less crying in his mind shouldn't be the solution.

I tend to the Tien fraction, but would like to ask Syl what are the voices of the other people? Is this what she tries to say with "everything is connected"? That everything has a voice and a song, just that this one voice is now quiet?

Personally I would like to know more about this heir - age, his parents, is he dead or alive... Will he be a part of the next generation (and I really think it boring if he ends up as the standard Sadean villain). Ialai - that's probably more the thing in the first arc. Here it depends upon a question - was she part of Amaram's decision to fight for Odium or not? For me plotting and planing with her husband to get the power in Alethkar isn't exactly the same as to submit everything - her land, her army - to the enemy. I wouldn't invite her to tea, but I think it possible for her to make a truce with Dalinar, if only to get a country back to start the powerplay anew.

I remember the last thing we hear about the gemstones was at the end of WoK. Wasn't it the deal that Dalinar will look what's behind this in exchange to becoming the Highprince of War? After that the whole affair is somehow forgotten...

Die gute Nachricht - Sturmlicht Chroniken Buch 5 erscheint bei Heyne voraussichtlich am 29. Oktober. Vermutlich wieder aufgeteilt und - ich konnte das noch nicht mal in den Zusammenhang mit "Oathbringer" setzen - unter dem Titel - Der Ruf der Klingen". Warum nur...WARUM? Nennen sie dann das Buch im Buch auch so oder schlagen sie einfach die Struktur in den Wind? Und ich dachte "Sturmklänge"und "Krieger des Feuers" sind schlimm...... Das war's....die Wartezeit, nicht die Teilung der Bücher, aber die Wartezeit dazwischen, die z.T. sinnlosen Klappentexte ("Wenn ein Sturm um die Welt geht, so erzählt man sich, erscheint am Himmel das Amtlitz eines Gottes - der Sturmreiter..." - was zum Teufel soll das?) anstatt des Orginals ( da habe ich schon mal deswegen an Heyne geschrieben - offensichtlich ohne Erfolg) und jetzt das - ich bin stinksauer.

Really, I don't believe Kaladin will be the one bonding more than one spren. For me this observations have perhaps to do with his 4. oath - he will have to decide, to get rid of the influences that are in conflict with his order. As a Windrunner he's a fighter, but not a soldier. He doesn't need "us" or "them", just the people who can't defend themselves. He has learned to heal with conventional methods, but he don't have Edgedancer-abilities and so on. Like he said - he WAS a surgeon, a soldier, a slave - but now he should concentrate on being a Windrunner. I believe the moment he"ll speak the next oath, his slavebrand will be gone. He has to expand his own abilities and learn to share the problems of the world with his fellow radiants - he must trust their abilities. The other problem I see with "us" and "them" - he was always told whom he shall see as "them", he tricks himself in looking at the situation this way. What leads him in Kholinar to forget the one person in the room who is in fact his responsibility - Gavinor. For a moment I nearly was in panic - this could have killed Syl if he had consciously decided like with Elhokar's assassination.

I don't really think this will be a theme for the first arc, but even without war and having a target painted on his back, Dalinar will age. His story centers much more the past then the future. As for Kaladin - I'm not sure he'll be the "one", but his conflicts are , as I see it, already increased because he could fit in different orders. This thinking of "us" and "them" was learned in the army and should be more the problem of a Stoneward. He heals everyone and remembers all he has lost on his way - people we would forget without Kaladin thinking about them every time in a crisis - his old comrades, Cenn, Dunny.... He has already united people within the bridgecrews. He discusses with Szeth about justice. All in all - it is harder for him and nit just because of his depressions.

No, just 'unite them'.

Perhaps this is a possibility - after I finally understood the chart with the orders -more or less - there was one point that facinated me, this point in the middle where every order is connected. Looking with "misted" eyes then Also what Evi told about the One - the Nightwatcher is its/her avatar. The middle-point is possibly the Cultivation-point. I'm not sure if Kaladin is able to bond more spren, but I believe Edgedancer was another possibility for him without Roshone and he heals and remembers all-the-time.

@Angsos The first one was just because it isn't clear wether Rathalas was a part of Kholin or the Crownlands. With this I tend to Crownlands. All of this is possibly connected with Sadees, the Sunmaker. He conquered the Hierocracy and unified Alethkar - he shouldn't have had problems as Gavilar had with Highprinces - there weren't none. And we don't know how he succeded - perhaps this region was the first on his side and he granted them indepedency? Perhaps there even is an oath involved. The Princedom Kholin was always in a position to attack the Crownlands, but nothing had happened until Gavilar, who set out to become king - he wasn't interested in the power-balance - and wasn't orginally supposed to be Highprince - he didn't have any bounderies. What really astonished me is why Gavilar waited 13 years after Tanalan jun. was back to send Dalinar after him. Like I wrote above I also was reminded of Alexander the Great, leaving his kingdom to conquer the world. The Highprinces as the Diadochi, Gavilar in the end as Kassander. But who has taken up the role of Alexander's son? Too young to be king, more or less the prisoner of Kassander? After the three wars the legitimate heir was a part of the peace because he should be the king coming of age, whereas Kassander had interpreted this as an order to kill him and his mother.

@Jofwu Thank you for your reminder to read again when in doubt - the crownland problem seems much more worth of speculations. My findings: Page 374 / Chapter 36 Hero Tanalan jun. is back, Gavilars reaction: "He's a descendant of the old REGIME. (...) The whole city is going into rebellion, the entire REGION. If we don't act, the whole CROWNLAND could break off. Chapter 26/ Blackthorm Unleashed Page 264 "Dalinar summoned Oathbringer, the sword of a fallen king...." Now I remember wondering about the wording - why should Dalinar think about the Sunmaker as a "fallen king"? Why not "dead king" or "Sunmaker"?

There was something Gavilar said, what reminded me on Alexander the Great. Sunmaker seems to have started like Gavilar himself - getting rid of the Hierocraty, uniting Alethkar and making himself the king. All nice and fine, but Gavilar is critical about Sunmaker's next move to "unify" Roshar, because this leaves Alethkar behind without a king. In this case Sunmaker would have to declare a regent, but then again many kings had lost their realm to the one they had given too much power. With 10 men in charge the power would be devided until the king is back. Problem was - he never came back. This can also be the origin of the "Highprince of.." - something like ministerialis, each for a special part like war, information business and so on. Another problem is we know nearly nothing about the Sunmaker family. To have children you normally need a female/wife. What about brothers? And how old was Sunmaker as he died? Were possible children at this time in an age to be successors? Or was it like with Elhokar, who had a son, but too young to be king? His sword Oathbringer should go to the oldest son and the next time we see it, it is in possession of a man from this ominous Crownland.