Stark

No doubt that Kaladin killed Syl. Stormfather cannot lie. He killed her. But being killed and being a Deadeye are not the same, necessarily. They are very, very highly overlapping portions of a Ven diagram. But in WoR, we hear Syl talking to the Stormfather when Kal was getting close to the third Ideal, and then swore it. We have yet to hear a Deadeye speak. Arguably, yes, Maya told Adolin her name. But that is still nowhere as coherent as the argument Syl was having with Stormfather, and was described more as a feeling than a spoken word. So for me, I do not think a spren becomes a deadeye when killed by broken oaths, unless the Oaths progress to the point of the Radiant being able to summon a blade. But I have about as much proof for my view as I think you do (I could be wrong, you could have tons of proof) So, absent proof on either side, we will have to agree to disagree until we get a WOB, or it gets addressed in book four when Kaladin asks Syl if she became one of those Deadeye things when he accidentally killed her in the chasms, and she gives him lip for inappropriate questions before confirming one way or the other. Edit: @Calderis if you do have proof, I'd be happy to read it and admit my error, or continue to disagree amicably.

From the WOB, the Ideal progression of a given Radiant order seems to determine whether the spren is crippled or dead-eyed when the Oaths are broken. 2dn Oath Windrunner cripples, third and beyond deadeyes. Other orders that get their shardblades at earlier, or later Oaths, would have potentially different results for Oathbreaking at 2nd and 3rd ideals, respectively.

This could point to the Sets, but I'm inclined to follow @Yata's line of thought that this part of the diagram points to the Honorblades. Especially given how much effort the diagram put into getting a hold of one to donate to Odium. But that does not preclude the possibility that this line of the diagram could serve dual purpose. Apparently the damnation thing was flexible enough that Mr T could shred it and reassemble it in a different conformation to get a new and entirely valid set of instructions... SO this one line doing double duty is possible, but still a bit of a stretch. I think it is more honorblade than hidden stash of Plates and Blades. But thanks for the evidence none the less, I had forgotten about this line!

Why not both? Yes, Dalinar made it up to bait Amaram into showing his true nature. But, that does not negate the possibility of Urban myths existing to indicate hidden caches of shards and other treasures. How many myths do we have on earth about hidden vaults and caches lost to time? And how many of those rumors had some basis in reality? And hidden vaults or treasures are not a new thing in Brandon's writing: Most scholars and generals would probably dismiss rumors of hidden caches as fiction, or the daydreaming fancies of the soldiers and lower classes. But such a rumor ostensibly coming from one of the Heralds? Now that would be paid attention too. Now, if some of those rumors were based in fact, pointing at the Shin, cool. We've just never seen it mentioned before, and honestly, they would be the least believed rumors. Who would believe in a hidden cache of shards in Shinovar?

We're at the point where the line blurs between the story being stereotypical and the story creating the stereotypes, I think. WoT falls into some stereotypes from previous fiction, most assuredly. But also as Maxal points out, it broke new ground and opened new areas that had never been explored before. Were these explorations needed? Yes. In hindsight, are they perfect? No, not always. Did they create entirely new stereotype and tropes when subsequent authors derived their ideas from WoT? Absolutely. Reading WoT starting in High school and finishing when the final book came out in University was pretty defining for my fantasy reading. It set the bar for a lot of my worldbuilding standards, though not in an unforgiving way. It holds a special place in my memories. Do I re-read it with a nostalgia haze? Maybe a little, but I'm also aware of the flaws in the story, and love it despite them - no matter how many eye-rolls or frustrations some of the flaws or characters cause. But I think it is important to distinguish between stereotypes it fell into, and stereotypes it created because no one had done anything like it before. Yes, the female leads often felt one or two dimensional, and that is not great. Female leads, depending on the author, have progressed significantly since then. But it WoT tried, and had a few of the first truly powerful Matriarchies we had seen in fantasy as well as outright matriarchal societies. Does that excuse the misteps? No. But it helps put them in perspective. But accusing a piece of work of falling victim to the stereotypes, or tropes, it created feels kinda silly. It reminds me of all the people who were trying to find more music from this "new" and "unheard of" band after the Thor Ragnarok trailers came out. Pieces of work from 30-40 years ago do need to be evaluated using current standards, but they also need to be evaluated in context of the standards of the time. If I was reading Wheel of Time for the first time now, I'd have a lot more issues with it than I did when reading it 18 years ago. Part of that is how I've matured as a reader, and part of it is how the genre has matured. Context does not excuse flaws, but it does help understand how they came about.

So this is the thought I was trying to express. Thanks for summing it up succinctly. I think what it comes down to is that real world perfect gems are purely theoretical and not naturally occurring. But in the Cosmere, with semi-divine intervention, there could realistically exist perfect gems, free of any flaw or impurity, immune to the stress of the drain/fill cycle.

I'm going to disagree with you on this for now. Your WOB, while really neat, does not address the long term viability of the so-called perfect gems, like the one seen in Thaylen city. I think the life span of gems is almost like a limit function, where the lifespan goes to infinity as you approach perfection. Except, this is a magic system, and we do see perfect gems. So if you have a molecularly perfect gem, cut perfectly, something a Shard could create, I think it can be reused an infinite number of times - provided no one takes a hammer to it and breaks it into a useless state.

I think the gem cracking has to do with the quality and cut more than anything else. We have seen that perfect gems hold light indefinitely. But inferior gems leak like sieves. If the gem is flawed, or poorly cut, I think it has a higher chance of cracking. To continue @Mestiv's glass of water analogy, with a perfect gem, a perfect container, we can fill and refill the gem to capacity ad infinitum. But if there is a flaw in the gem, it is like using a flawed or cracked glass to drink from. It may work the first few times, and it may Hold liquid for a while before it all leaks out. But, eventually, the repeated stress from filling and refilling will widen the flaw in the glass until it finally breaks - cracking beyond usefulness or coming apart outright. That said, don't drink from a broken glass, its a bad plan.

The RAFO is kinda neat and very important - it implies quite a bit. But far more exciting is the next line in parentheses.. Confirmation that Cultivation talks to lots of people. That, in my mind, is pretty huge.

I agree with all of this. Which sucks, because I really, really want to love the graphic novel. But the consistency, the fact that many of the characters are visually indistinguishable from each other is just too jarring. The final chapter art was redemptive, but getting two thirds of the way through a story before getting decent art is too much. And much of the plot feels too rushed. Elements come out of nowhere without any of the build up you got from the prose. Spoilers of course.

I like the new artist better. ThHe old artist had quite a few continuity errors. And everything was so messy. I like the new art style much better. It is discordant to have that switch, but I can live with it.

A six foot long Mithril sword would still be heavyish. But a regular longsword is at most 1.5KG. So if it is still heavy, but light compared to 1.5kg, its not going to push much... And both would be heavy compared to a wooden spear with a metal head.

Except that everyone talks about how ludicrously light they are. They are essentially Mithril.

True. And we have seen that a red aura appears when one shard co-opts another shards systems. Would manipulating Lerasium or Atium run the risk of corrupting a spren and shifting them red?

Question that may slightly brush up against OB Spoilers: It has been hinted that a single person could bond more than one spren, the caveat being that they would need to meet the criteria of both spren for it to work, and find a way to swear the oaths in a non-contradictory manner. Is the inverse possible as well? Could a spren bind two people simultaneously? Likely not, but could it work? What if the people in question were Identical twins? Or were drift compatible in the pacific rim universe? Do spren have an identical twin analog among them?

Thanks @RShara for the transcription! And Thanks everyone who was there to ask questions, there are some really good ones there!

But they can manipulate Stormlight - it is the primary currency in the Rosharan expanse of Shadesmar, and we see a spren accept Rock's offer of of Stormlight. So they can access Investiture. And they have limited manipulation of the PR. So normal rules may not apply for invested metal, especially metal that invested. But they would make terrible mistborn. Iron and steel are useless to them.

Oh come on, this thread is practically begging for these references. From Maya being mostly dead, to the Stormfather pulling a pseudo Inigo Montoya on Kaladin in the fourth act of WOR... So no apologies! Let the references loose! Also, what do you think Miracle Max was, Edgedancer or Truthwatcher?

I'd love to have the meta experience of Wayne doing the audiobooks for Mistborn.

It does and it doesn't. As I said, I grumble at my keyboard, not you guys - the ones who are providing me with information I didn't have, so that I can better support my theories, or allow them to die. So I was not feeling bad. And if ever I feel a response to me is out of line, I'll express that feeling. If I've learned nothing else from this thread, it is that you guys are open to conflict resolution and discussion.

I personally am not invested in shipping conversations. They do nothing for me, so I avoid them all together, except for the occasional off-hand thought. So I have nothing to say on that subject for how it should be handled. I am saddened that it is such a divisive subject. As for moderator participation on the boards, I'm all for that. I do not think the moderators need separate accounts for personal posts versus official posts. They are not government officials. They are unpaid volunteers doing this because they love it. Restricting their posting seems like a good way to drive them to quit, or take the fun out of this and make it actual work. I do not believe it is the way to go. Having a strict set of guidelines for how Mods enforce site rules, regardless of the offender, that I am all for, and that seems to be the direction we are leaning. The only thing I would want to ask the Mods is for them to be aware of the perception that can be associated with their posts. Not to not post, nor to change their posting habits, but just to be aware that their posts can be perceived as official position, or unconsciously given additional weight. And as a final thought for the arcanists - Directed mainly to Rshara and Calderis as they seem to be the representatives of the arcanists here in this thread. But others as well, and even Yata, who I don't think is an arcanist. I would be lying if I said I have not grumbled at my keyboard every now and then when I have carefully gathered my thoughts to present a theory or an idea, only to have it shot down and utterly destroyed by a WOB or direct page reference from one of you within 30 seconds of posting. But that frustration is almost entirely with finding out that I am wrong, not with you for showing me my error. I'd rather know I'm wrong sooner, than continue going down the wrong path for a longer period of time. So I hope you guys keep debating with us, and forgive us our frustrations if they are misplaced.

Here is hoping. As before, home made internet cookies for anyone who gets a chance to ask anything about either of the following subjects: Which forms are male/female (other than dullform, mateform and slaveform, all of which can have children) and which forms are malen/femalen (the forms that cannot procreate)? Did the Shin invade the rest of Roshar to remove the missing shards from circulation (ref: Feverstone keep vision where Dalinar sees more shards than currently in active use)? Or, are the Shin stockpiling shards the same way they stockpile honorblades?

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but I have a different reasoning. A fair subsection of the moderators and arcanists seem to be able to attend many of Brandon's events to personally ask questions. They talk to him on reddit, or twitter. The email him directly. Some of them are beta readers. So when they say something, unless Peter or Brandon show up to say "Nope" - I take them at face value and add more weight to their opinions. Especially when they support themselves with a WOB. When it comes to non-theory posts, maybe a mix of the previous conditioning and the implied authority given by the title makes me give their thoughts more weight. I have yet to have an issue or disagreement with one of the Mods, but I often attribute more weight to their postings - even in off the wall theorycrafting with only the flimsiest of support. Heck, as recently as last week, I was pleased when Rshara and Calderis gave me a virtual thumbs up on a theory, more so than other responses, because they are titled members of this group. So I stick by my feeling. The mods and are doing the best they can do, and I am thankful they are donating their time to keep this running. But, as part of them evolving, they do need to be aware that a lot of us will, consciously or not, assign more weight to their posts. Official business or not. And I think most are pretty good about being careful of that perception, especially if the comments about off forum discussion for problem solving is to be believed, and I see no reason to doubt that. I don't think the solution is for mods to have official and personal accounts. That is too easy to abuse, and would be a waste of their time. I also don't see restricting areas a mod can participate in as being a solution. That sucks all the fun out of this and makes it work. Unpaid, unfun work. That would kill the interest of many mods in being here, I think. So there is merit to the discussion of freedom vs. power, but there is no solution that will keep everyone happy. For now, I'm still having fun 99.99% of the time I'm here, and I see that continuing as long as we can continue to have open, respectful discussion about issues that come up.

This. Even out of context, this. There are a couple of subjects that I simply don't open, because I have zero interest in discussing. There are posts that appear in threads I am interested in that hold no relevance (In, and only in, my opinion) to the part of the discussion I am interested in, or participating in, and I can scroll past them. If I find myself scrolling past most of the thread, I drop it. And finally, there are some posters who I actively avoid, for a plethora of reasons, some valid, and some petty. It is so much easier to scroll past a post that frustrates or insults or angers me than to carefully craft a response that is within the rules. And it is faster than shooting off a quick response that fuels the fire too. Do I always succeed? No. I responded heatedly to IronBars when I felt insulted in the Underwhelming Thread. I Responded heatedly a number of months ago in that other thread that flirted with toxicity, Suggestions or something, by a new poster. But I try to maintain the paradoxical heated-but-civil approach. And I also remembered I could choose not to be part of the argument. Did that with Underwhelming until I saw the Mods getting involved, then I went back to see what was happening and if it would affect me. We can all be rude. We can all be abrasive. And we can all choose not to respond, though that admittedly does become more difficult if we are being called out by name. I have been on the blunter end of both @Calderis, @RShara and a few others with some of my early theories. The straightforwardly showed me my error with WOBS. It was blunt, and I thanked them for it. Other times I've had some really good feedback and discussion with the Ancients of the boards. It varies topic to topic. But at the end of the day, this is a place where we have the freedom to express our opinions. And have the freedom to respond to, or ignore, the opinions of others. As long as we all stay civil, that is fantastic. If we need the Mods to remind us that we are civil humans with a fondness for the same subsection of fictional literature so we should all try to get along, well then its a good thing we have mods. If they are biased because they to are humans with a fondness for the same subsection of fictional literature, or imperfect because the best, professional mods are unavailable for a theorycrafting fansite, or uninterested in moding fans, we have to help them be better while they help us be better posters. It is give and take. So I'm happy we have a Calculus prof, a whatever @Jofwu and @FeatherWriter are/do and all the others. The fact that we can have this discussion is proof that we all care to make it better, and that the voices of non mods and non-arcanists can and will be heard. Except @Mestiv. That signature that spies on me is creepy and I don't like it. I'm certain you are a great human, and your responses to my posts, when they occur, are fun and insightful. But you scare me with that signature. (Joke with no intent to offend, apologies if offense is perceived or taken)

One of my biggest personal worries is that this would be me. I try my best to follow the rule of silence in absence of something nice or constructive to say. But when that fails, and it has in the past - I often find myself immediately hitting the edit button after posting to try to fix what I can see as potentially inflammatory phrasing. Often that results from posting without proof reading myself. Were I to post something, and have a Mod PM me to say I crossed a line and need to apologize, and rephrase, I'd like to believe I'd respond reasonably. My fear is that I wouldn't, and I'd explode at a PM just trying to do their unpaid, volunteer job. Reality is likely somewhere in the middle where I'd need to walk away for a few hours before fixing the mess I made. All that to say, I don't envy the Mods their task. And I'd hope that if I ever cross the line, they'd come to me first in private to say not cool, and try to fix it. If I turn out to be one of those that doesn't not respond well to quiet wrist taps and attempts at resolution, by all means, be public about saying you tried to resolve things in private and I was recalcitrant. But that is not to say there is no bias. It's been admitted to and pointed out enough on this thread, I don't need to re-litigate it. As for reaction from Mods to old hands versus new blood, I often feel I fall into a middle category - I'm not new. But I'm not as prolific or visible as some of the others out there. So I often keep silent for fear of reprimand, both with old and new posters. So I don't have good answers. I'm both heartened and disappointed to learn our Mods are only human. if that makes sense. Heartened that they admit they don't always get it right. Disappointed that they don't always gt it right. But having this topic where we can discuss with the mods has the potential to really help us all interact better. As long as the thread doesn't descend into "Hey ModX, remember that time I got heated with Poster Y, and you gave me crap, but not the other?" Last thought, this idea from Chaos has saved me a number of times. Extra points for tea instead of coffee. Thanks for discussing with us.