Twenty@20

Dalinar will be fighting without a shardblade in the next book. It will be interesting to see him develop a new fighting style using Adhesion and Tension surges and also get an idea about "the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths" (Epigraph CH. 58, WoR) I am also holding hope for a fight between Radiants. Just like the Avengers horsing around. Nothing serious however. It will be pretty awesome to see a Skybreaker slugging it out with a Dustbringer like Thor and Tony Stark.

I was expecting and also dreading this question. I generally know that the current consensus is that inquisitors are steel and iron savants which allows them to see metals inside the human body but I am not up to date with the details. Can someone point out a few good posts which discuss inquisitor vision?

As we all know the Stormlight Archive has seen quite a few jaw dropping,fist pumping, terrifying battle/ fight scenes. So fellow Sharders what epic battles are you expecting in Stormlight 3. I for one am salivating at the prospect of Szeth and Nalan vs Stone Shammans or rather Nightblood vs a few Honorblades. Who do think is going to win that one?

I quoted the example of halfshards mainly as a technology demonstrator. Augmenter fabrials mimic the most important feature of shardplates, which is stopping shardblade. I freely admit I am speculating on this point. May be the KR take the basic premise of an augmenter fabrial and add additional technology to make the shardplates as we know them. Even if we ignore the halfshards, my other arguments for fabrial based shardplates still hold. I am just trying to offer a different perspective to the shadeplate origin question. I may very well be proven wrong you know. Mr. Sanderson can always spring surprises

I think, stormlight not only repairs damaged shardplates, but it is also necessary for the shardplate to function properly. During the duel with 4 shardbearers, the helm which Kaladin used as a glove, kept working only because Kaladin kept feeding it stormlight. All shardbearers are known to carry infused spheres inside their plates so ensure they don't fail in battle. Recall Eholkar's chasmfiend hunting incident, when dun spheres resulted in the plate cracking easily.Edit: just found this quote from WoK, Chapter I-9 The new halfshards are described as fabrials which means they need stormlight to work. Also it is further proof that original shardplates are some sort of fabrial.

Stepping aside from the soulcasting drains innate investiture theory, what if the physical changes are due to repeated visits to Shadesmar. I admit we don't know how the ardents soulcast but the ardents in the WoK I-8 interlude talk about visits to Shadesmar. We have seen spren capable of hurting humans there. Though again I don't think that is the cause of their physical changes. Point is Shadesmar is an unknown territory so frequently visiting there may be the reason of these changes.

I am starting to think of the shardplates as armour fabrial because how they consume stormlight while functioning unlike shardblades. The Radiants were able to supply stormlight directly( ala Kaladin at the epic duel) while others need infused gems. Since it is widely considered plate comes with higher oaths, can it be that ability to make Surge fabrials comes with a higher oath. After all Kaladin has 2 more oaths left. So a shardplate and Surge fabrials may come next. The secondary spren theory of Shardplate is elegant and fits Mr. Sanderson's way of doing things. I would like to know if blades and plates are made of same material. (Unlikely I think since Blades are indestructible as far as we know.) Since all the different spren blades are of the same material, I would expect that the plates be of the same material too if they come from spren. Well, that is a roundabout way of making an argument against spren derived plates. Another point. Syl, Pattern and company gain consciousness in the physical world from the bond with the Radiant. What will plate forming spren gain? It is evident they won't get consciousness because we haven't seen any discarded plate scream at our Radiants. Errant thought. Syl wanted a spren for herself in WoR. Will she get one which eventually forms the plate?

This Allomancer Jak story strongly reminds me of the Professor Challenger story, The Lost World by Sir Arthur C Doyle. The narrative style is very similar. And in that story, Challenger and his friends were also captured( by intelligent primate society) and Challenger was made their king, iirc. Perhaps Mr. Sanderson is paying Professor Challenger and Sir A C Doyle a tribute.

I think common salt cannot be moved with allomancy. Salts, in general, are considered to have different properties from their constituent metals and not simply a mixture of their constituting elements. In the cosmere I would expect that salts have a strong cognitive identity that is entirely different from the the cognitive identity of their constituting elements simply because people eat salt, not sodium and chloride. I understand that allomancy is inspired by metallurgy but not every metallic chemistry can be applied to it. Allomancy is Mr. Sanderson's imagination. Also cognitive identity is important in the cosmere. The ship in WoR has a separate cognitive identity from the various materials from which it was constructed. Shai in TES says that "The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it viewed itself". Common salt is not thought as a metal in lay terms nor I hope it views itself as a metal. In nutshell, I believe it is illogical to expect formal chemistry concepts to apply to Allomancy. Will mercury and molten iron be affected? That will be interesting to find out. I want to clarify that I know the Cognitive is not as relevant on Scadrial as it is on Roshar, so I don't know if my line of argument holds in the context of Scadrial.

I stick my neck out on this discussion and suggest that Kaladin may remain without a love interest in the near future or at least till this Desolation business is done with. I mean seriously, where is he going to find time to follow up with any girl he might get interested in.(Eg. Shallan) He is already bound by oaths to protect and is going to lead the struggle against voidbringers. For companionship he has Syl and other radiants and will soon have a bunch of squires. I am not saying that a relationship will not do him any good but that he won't be able to find the time for a budding relationship.

Well I never knew, I had fallen in love with the WoR forum. Good bye "old" friend.

Wow this theory is nice. I don't know how I missed it earlier. Thanks for necroing(hope I don't get into trouble for saying that). I think we don't know the timeline of parshmen enslavement. Were they enslaved after the Heralds left or before? Wasn't the big fight in the prelude of WoK meant to be the end of the previous desolation. So if they were enslaved before then they were not in that fight and if after then did the Heralds desert before the Desolation ended? It may be that the voidbringers were defeated and then enslaved but still the question remains why enslavement was chosen over destruction. Leaving the parshmen alive and susceptible to voidspren and taking a huge risk of another desolation, why was the enslavement option chosen? Did the Heralds play a role in this choice even though they were about to desert? Or was this a requirement of the Oathpact? I made a lot of assumptions here but this point needs some clarity.

Syl was manifesting the Surge of Adhesion around Kaladin. However reversed shadows is not a manifestation of Transformation or Transportation. For comparison Ivory could have changed a cup into spoon near Jasnah. Transformation, Transportation and Illumination are brought about by Shadesmar manipulation. Reversed shadows is a characteristic of Shadesmar. I don't have a quote or WoB at hand, but recall reading somewhere that reversed shadows indicate Shadesmar affinity. IIRC, both the Transformation fabrial and the guy using them was called Soulcasters. It is not implausible that both Radiants and normal people(using the fabrial) were able to soulcast. To differentiate between them, the names of the two Radiant groups may have got changed to highlight their second power set.

I will clarify again. In my initial post I was not trying to offer reasons for Tranquiline halls not being on Roshar. I was only referring to the theory that is prevalent that T Halls are Roshar's equivalent of our Heaven and that it is another planet in the cosmere. I am not discussing the merit or demerits of the two theories. My initial post was sloppily written and I regret the confusion. My only interest in the topic was that if in the future T Halls are a found to be real and on another planet then Roshar will have both a proven God and a proven Heaven. And the irony is that in our world we cannot definitely prove either.

I will remain a doubter regarding the Regrowth fabrial till Mr. Sanderson shows us clearly how it works and also I believe we don't know much about how Soulcasters work. Same about the Transportation fabrials of Oathgates. By the by, the more we discuss Radiant powers the more it becomes clear how seriously powerful our heroes are. It is one thing to have an extra powerful villain like the Lord Ruler or even Miles Hundredlives, because it raises the stakes for heroes. However when our heroes are becoming so powerful, I only wonder how powerful the voidbringers will be. The sense of too little, too late that is growing among the Radiants is perhaps good for the story as otherwise they are very powerful.

If Regrowth fabrial can only be made and recharged by Knight Radiants as theorised,then it is not a simple matter of just recharging it by stormlight. If it were so, then where the great cost needed to use regrowth as implied by sun tzaro. I think the regrowth fabrial has to be recharged by the Radiants themselves, therefore they were not seen in absence of Radiants unlike soulcasting fabrial. If we follow this line of reasoning, then Nalan can't go to a Radiant and say recharge this fabrial before I kill you. Of course it may be so that Nalan had a recharged Regrowth fabrial since before recreance. In that case Szeth was incredibly lucky.

Your idea is interesting. If Lightweavers can not only create illusions but create actual objects out of them, then that is pretty awesome. However I believe that Lightweaving per se refers only to the creating illusion part. One can argue that transformation ( small t) is inherent in creating illusions but it is not related to the Transformation surge. The epigraph of chapter 47 WoR talks about Lightweavers providing spiritual sustenance. It seems they were like cheerleaders, for want of a better term, always encouraging, counselling and providing emotional support to other Knights. I think the Cryptics specifically look for persons of such temperament, persons who can inspire others to improve and transform themselves. Regarding Elsecallers I have a hunch that their spren look for individuals who have natural affinity for the cognitive realm. This is contrast to the idea that becoming an Elsecaller brings an affinity to Shadesmar. An earlier post pointed out that there was no obvious reason for Jasnah to go to Shadesmar when attacked. It could be that the Ivory brought Jasnah into Shadesmar to give her time to heal her wounds. I had thought Transportation means instantaneous travel in the physical realm only. Going into Shadesmar is a function of the natural affinity Elsecallers have to it. Recall Willshapers also have Transportation yet they are not considered equal to Elsecallers in affinity to Shadesmar. Also in the WOR prologue, recall that the Jasnah's shadow pointed towards the light before Ivory appeared. This can be taken as evidence that Jasnah already had an affinity to Shadesmar and so she became an Elsecaller. One more point regarding why there no orders was named Soulcaster. I think this was because the soulcasting fabrial was in use by non- Radiants. So Radiants were not called Soulcasters.

@ sun tzaro. If your theory that Regrowth fabrials have to be created by Edgedancers or Truthwatchers, then where do you think Nalan got his. For Nalan to use KR technology is self defeating, since he is killing KRs. If Nalan wants to stop desolation from happening he should not be carrying around KR tech. I like the concept that making these fabrials and using regrowth is very exhausting for KRs. But still that means some guys will get preference over others regarding getting Regrowth. Perhaps KRs will first help KRs just because they are more valuable. So reader expectations will remain. Regarding Szeth It looks to me that Szeth accepts Kaladin's charges and finally allows Kaladin to kill him. That tells me Szeth was repenting killing people. After Nalan revives him, he wishes to stay dead. He admits he has destroyed himself. Isn't that repentance? It is but natural now Szeth will go to punish The Stone Shammans for turning him into a killer. I feel he should go after Taravangian first but perhaps Nalan is playing politics. So my point was Szeth saw his mistake before his death and so perhaps it could have been avoided. Even if Kaladin did not kill him he would have shed his Truthless burden and gone after the Shamman. Only one point in favor of being reborn is that he may stop hearing the screams. But he still has all his memories so his guilt would still remain. Sun tzaro I did say earlier that calling a person dead implying his brain has also stopped working(at least that's how it works in our world). And Nalan does say that Szeth died at least twice. Of course I admit that definition of dead is bit fuzzy in the cosmere. And we won't know the limitations of Regrowth untill we see cases where it fails. Who knows it can't regrow entire organs. After all storm light did regrow Lopen's arm. The basis is same

Well, I concede that the concept of death is pretty fuzzy in the cosmere. At what point it becomes irreversible is not yet clear. I will however reiterate that using this ploy might open a flood gate of expectations in subsequent stories. People may start to expect their heroes to come back especially if the Regrowth fabrial becomes commonplace. The metalminds are exclusive to the feruchemist and cannot be used to revive others. So if a character without gold feruchemy dies, we know he stays dead. However if a gold feruchemy 'fabrial' comes up later in mistborn I will feel let down Also I did say that to call a person dead his brain must stop working. The heart or kidney or liver stopping to work is not death until the brain stops working as a consequence. Doctors all over the world follow this protocol only. Check if the brain is dead or not. Because that is irreversible

@ Outis to clarify, I was only referring to a broad consensus in the forums about Tranquiline Halls being off planet. I am more interested in drawing parallels between the OP theory and Jasnah's theory. Both strike at the heart of Vorin ideology. But ironically both turn out to be untrue(in the case of the OP theory I admittedly presumed it will prove to be untrue). And even greater irony is that both theories may find some relevance in our world.

My bad. I entirely forgot about that conversation. Thanks for the reminder. At the same time, let me highlight After emphasizing twice that Szeth was dead before revival, Nalan can't compare him to a drowning man. If the brain is not dead, then a person is not dead. To call a person dead implies none of his organs are working including his brain.

@ Outis. Your theory that heaven is a place on Earth( I think you meant Roshar) is very similar to Jasnah's theory that God does not exist. Both theories can be accepted on own world. But unfortunately they would not work on Roshar because the entire back story of Adonalsium, Yolen, Honor, Cultivation, Odium.

It does seem Gawx was dead and Lift brought him back from dead. My issue is that bringing a dead person back is the holy grail of magic and it should have huge costs. Healing from an injury or illness, however severe, seems par for the course. But even it also should not be without consequences. To my mind, flying or even soulcasting and elsecalling do not level up to bringing the dead back. If reviving the dead can be done so cheaply (Any Edgedancer or Truthwatcher at hand can do it.) then all our heroes and anti-heroes will keep coming back after dying. That will not be good reading at all.This is the crux of my problem with Szeth's death. It not the question of whether the power of resurrection was foreshadowed adequately or having it codified as a KR power. The fact is using it too much will destroy the story. Szeth was killed by a shardblade. So he must have died instantaneously and his eyes were burnt out. He was killed above the Shattered plains and revived in the Frostlands. So there must have been a lot of time in between, at least an hour. That makes it even more unbelievable. On top of that, he was resurrected with a fabrial. It doesn't get any easier than this. So I think his death and resurrection narrative should have been avoided. Perhaps Kaladin should have only taken away his blade and let him go once he showed repentance. Then Nalan could have teamed up with him.. Perhaps someone can find a WoB if Gawx was actually dead before Lift used regrowth.

Before WoR, we had only a rough idea about the Orders and the Surges. It was only from WoR's Arcanum we learnt about the surges and the in-world book gave us names of the Orders. Combining these sources with the surgebinding chart and some WoB's we got a clear idea about the KR abilities. And the characters knew even less than us at WoR beginning(except perhaps Jasnah). So first time readers had a learning curve. At the point of Jasnah's death we were unaware of Arcanum information and in-world book(unless someone skipped ahead). So her death would look definite to new readers at that point(except for the case of missing body).And her comeback in the epilogue may also look contrived, since first time readers had not reached the Arcanum information yet. The point why Jasnah did not tell Shallan about her other Surge can be attributed to plot considerations. Because then Shallan would be awaiting Jasnah's return and her story would not progress as it as done(having to save the world single handed after the death of her mentor is very good for character building)

I won't say I was expecting Jasnah to come back. However her death felt sort of anticlimactic to me. Such a strong character to have died without a bang was a let down. So her comeback felt natural to me. With hindsight however, the entire plot of her death and comeback felt a bit forced, even though the assassination attempt was foreshadowed. Szeth's revival looked more contrived to me than Jasnah's comeback. Perhaps there was no need to kill him in the first place. He had already realized that he had been duped and simply taking away his honorblade may have been enough for plot purposes.