Miyabi

Of course it is, especially when you consider that one Intent is now split into who knows how many separate Intents which could then unwittingly be working against each other.

I'm torn when it comes to Jasnah's Soulcasting abilities. It appears, due to the fact that her hand sinks into the boulder that she is somehow linked to the electromagnetism Surge, but the fact that she could use Light to reach out and touch the thugs to Soulcast them would indicate she is possibly using Light as a Surge. Maybe Jasnah is using a different form of Soulcasting altogether that isn't related to a Surge or a Fabrial.

Odium, due to the fact that he is so strongly made of hatred has the ability to see fairly far into the future in order to exact his plans. I'm guessing that the Splintering, and potentially the earthquake, were a part of this long drawn out plan. Traveling to Sel through Shadesmar is tricky, even dangerous, due to the fact that there aren't enough releases for the Spiritual Pressure. This is caused partially by the fact that the magic systems don't pull too much from them and could be further compounded by the fact that nearly all of the Elantrians (One of the major magic users) were wiped out and their magic was made inaccessible for a long period of time.

The problem with something like that is the fact that it's one big piece of metal. There's no way to pull at a distant location. Which is why I stated what I did the way I did. You could perhaps hang metal balls from them (I used phone line as an example instead of electricity) to use as anchors.

I am more than inclined to agree when it comes to the Blade. I think the Plate might be a different thing all together. The Plate may have dimmed due to the lack of Stormlight being released from the KR, and the Blades due to the broken Oath to their Spren. When Syl freaks out it appears to only be about the Blade and isn't related to the Plate, so I feel there is some form of distinction here.

I agree with Kurk on this one. I think a Bond is forming over time. In a similar way in which Kaladin's Bond took time to build up. Hoser brings up a very good point which I had never thought of before. We explicitly see one of Teravangians own men doing exactly the same thing Jasnah does, except with a wall instead of a boulder. It is very possible Teravangian, the most dubious man of them all, suspected that Jasnah was Soulcasting using a Surge instead of a Soulcaster and wanted to see for himself.

You are probably right here. I just got really caught up in my theorycrafting. xD Maybe it's something along the lines of requiring Stormlight to dismiss and bring them back? Who am I kidding, I have no idea. lol.

Well if you include the fact that has been brought up about this Investiture being 'blank' the person would have to be Nicrosil Twinborn as well as have at least one more way to affect the Investiture.

I have this same discussion going on in two separate threads. Let's just continue there conversation on theother thread.

Moving this discussion from another topic which can be foundhere. WoB is that things in the Cognitive Realm have a different Spacial relation than they do in the Physical. (i.e. a place which is 100 miles apart Physically may only be 1 in the Cognitive.) This could create a number of instances where it was in a Spacial strange place if you took Shadesmar exactly as it was Spacially and laid that on top of Roshar. They say that you can't walk to Urithiru... well you can't really walk to Shadesmar, BUT Nohadon had apparently managed it. This could be due to a Surge he had access to. Perhaps the Craters were set of entrances each nation could use to access Urithiru. This seems to help to solidify my thoughts of Spacial differentiation playing a part. You see here someone is able to travel through Urithiru and go to Kholinar and then back to Urithiru and then to a city in Veden within a single day. The only source which we have saying for certain that Urithiru is west of Alethkar is an old translated version of a text. Perhaps the world "westward" is improperly translated. What is the place nearest Honor? Where is Honor supposed to be? Perhaps the word is translated correctly, but is there really a word to properly describe traveling to a different Realm of existence? Also, the place through which Nohadon supposedly walked from to Urithiru was Abamabar, which we know almost nothing about and isn't on any maps. Similar to the way in which Urithiru is. Maybe both existed in Shadesmar. Another option here could be that they were both in a Spiritual Realm which we don't have a map of. No one can reach it, but all can visit. This to me sounds as if referring to a place that isn't of the Physical Realm. You could go to those places for a time, but you then had to return back to the Physical Realm. There's also the fact that the city's main feature is "The tower." I don't think it's a coincidence. When the Oathpact was broken it is possible that whatever allowed Urithiru to only exist in the plain that it did, whether that be Shadesmar or the Spiritual Realm was also broken. When something migrates from one Realm to another we aren't exactly sure what happens. Shardblades are stored in the Spiritual Realm, but when they are summoned to the Physical Realm they appear exactly where the Bearer wanted it to. Also, as you stated the Realms are connected in some way. I don't think that when Urithiru melded into the Physical Realm it just plopped out of the sky. I would imagine the Realms made room for it to squeeze into place. This could be referring to someone regaining the title "Herald of the Almight," becoming their King, restoring the tower to its former glory (Since it says you the tower needs to be picked up.) The implication here is that Urithiru isn't as it used to be for one reason or another.

Exactly. So the odds of Cultivation being a Shardpool and the Physical form isn't as far fetched as people are trying to make it sound.

I like a LOT of what you've accomplished here. Though let me add a couple things I have noticed in my readings. 1. It appears that Fabrials were in at least some cases created to mimic abilities of KRs and potentially VBs. 2. The symbols between the two charts for Surges seem to be a twisted, perhaps by the way they are inverted, opposite version of their counterpart. Or perhaps simply a corrupt version of said Surge. 3. We know some KR were able to do Lightweaving. 4. Order 1 is Windrunners 5. Order 6 is where Shallan belongs and are certainly attached to Transformation. 6. Either order 7 or order 5 share Transformation; whereas Jasnah seems much more likely to be attached to 5, it is likely the connection is made there. 7. Jasnah can manipulate Light to form a connection to something in order to Soulcast it; an ability she avoided using, except when to kill the muggers who were running away. Every other time she seemed very careful to hide this ability, even in front of Shallan. 8. Group 9 are the Stonewards and appear to have the ability to Travel. 9. Some "Surges" are associate with Voidbringers (i.e. Seeing the future). 10. Dustbringers are an order of the Voidbringers and use Fire (or heat) in their Bindings. 11. Either Topaz or Heliador is connected to coldness. 12. Voidbringers can bring stone to life. 12. Order 10 are the Skybreakers. 13. Szeth is not a Windrunner, but can use Lashings, which is either a Gravity or Pressure based ability. So there are a few qualms I have with your list here. Darkness, I feel doesn't belong on the Harmonics table as it would most likely be the counter to Light. Travel needs to be connected to the Stonewards in one direction or the other. We also see the relationships on the large scale (i.e. stone + oil + fire could make lava or other such connections.) I have however, happened to notice another relationship: Air(Zephyr), and Vapor, mixed with Gravity are part of what make up, and create atmospheric pressure. What however is the fourth thing which would connect them together? It's obviously not Darkness. Now for Transformation you currently have it linked with growth, transportation, blood, and memory. I would be more likely to pair it with Blood, growth, light, and a fourth which I haven't decided on as of yet. I would do this for a few reasons. 1. The idea of a things life whether it be its blood, its growth, or the light which is needed for it to grow are all a part of the transformations we go through naturally. So it seems like a strong connection. 2. This connection would allow Jasnah to be connected to both Transformation and Light. Which she appears to be. 3. This allows for Lightweaving to be the Transformation of Light.... which always seemed like the logical connection to me. Strength, perception, awareness, and memory all seem like good things, but I'm not sure how well they fit in the long run and I feel it's trying too hard to put Harmonics into an Allomantic type table. A lot of the time when Szeth uses his abilities our attention is drawn to the fact that it creates frost. I can't remember off the top of my head any time when Kaladin used his abilities it making this same effect. (Though I could just not be remembering.) The fact that our attention is drawn to this when referring to Szeth I feel is important. This would indicate a connection to the Cold between either Pressure or Gravity. I would be inclined to connect this down towards Fire where the lack of such a thing creates the cold. Though I wouldn't be certain about it. Doesn't the term "Skybreaker" sound like something someone might call thunder or lightning? I'm inclined to think that they are called this due to how they Travel. I would guess they Travel using atmospheric pressure, which would cause them to come from the sky, creating a large boom when they arrive. This would allow them to connect to pressure, which is connected to Windrunners for sure, as well as to Travel which is likely connected to the Stonewards. This also allows gravity to be connected to a Smoke and Cold providing reasons behind the Frost every time Szeth uses his Gravity based powers. There are also a few things you aren't taking into account. Brandon specifies the four natural forces will be used, those being gravity, strong atomic force, weak atomic force, and electromagnetism. These will in one way or another fill three the four spaces which I haven't filled. Now... where they go? That's another story. I would like to make a conjecture regarding "Stonewards," since they Travel and seem to appear out of nowhere, I would like to assume they use Electromagnetism in combination with Travel to move through objects and space in a way that most people are restricted. They name perhaps coming from a group of people who seemingly walk out of stones? I'm going to start at Zephyr and go Order > Surge > Order > Surge as I see them connecting. Zephyr > gravity > Vapor > Cold > Spark > uknown > Lucentia > Light > Pulp > Transformation > Blood > Unkown > Tallow > unkown > Foil > Electromagnetism > Talus > Travel > Sinew > Pressure Those are the only connections I can make with reasonable certainty. Everything else would be wild speculation. I would guess that Shallan's power is connected to one of the Atomic forces, but I couldn't say for sure. This leaves us with either one or two open spots. Do we keep both strong and weak Atomic Forces on this table? Or do we separate them as we do Light/Dark, Cold/Heat, since Strong Atomic holds things together and Weak Atomic pulls them apart? I would conjecture that we separate them and that the Strong Atmoic force belongs with the Harmonics. EDIT:: Perhaps one of the last two has to do with Time Perception(Past). This could explain why Dalinar can see into the past, and could very well relate to a Time Perception(Future) being associated with the Voidbringers?

I think, as I stated in another thread, that the Plains themselves are Urithiru. It's no longer in the West, because it was west of Alethkar only due to spacial differentiation between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. It's the Plains because the buildings became covered in Crem over the last 4,500 years.

EDIT::: SORRY about the BEHEMOTH of a post. Now if only Peter would tell me if I'm right.... xD I think the best point you make is this one. Now I think this has something to do with Investiture. We know that the plate is an Invested object. We also know that Invested things resist other Investiture. I am inclined to believe that gems are also Invested when they are Infused with Stormlight. With the gems in the way of the conduits which absorb the Stormlight a person who is attempting to utilize any form of Surgebinding would find it blocked by the gems. Because with those conduits being blocked, the Stormlight wouldn't be able to make its way from the body to the other side of the Plate. The Plate, being an Invested object, would block the Stormlight, except through those points which were made for that use. I would also assume that the Glyphs which seem to leek Stormlight are the channel by which the Stormlight leaves the Plate in order to affect the world outside of the Plate. The fact that everyone who uses Plate seems to feel it requires the gemstones to work could have caused previous Shin Surgebinders, or perhaps even Szeth himself, to have attempted to use Plate while it had gems in it to no avail. This could have been due to lack of knowledge about needing to feed the Stormlight through the Plate or simply interference from the gems. RE: Dalinar glowing; There are a couple of things we can assume here. One being that even if the gems don't completely block Stormlight from getting through to the Plate from a Surgebinder it is significantly hampered. Similar to the way someone playing a trumpet might use a mute to let a little sound out, but hold much of it in reserve. I would imagine the amount of Stormlight which is blocked in this manner is rather large otherwise someone would have unwittingly Invested Stormlight into their Plate at some point in history between the Last Desolation and now. Perhaps Dalinar has a strong ability in using Stormlight in a similar way that Vin can pierce a Coppercloud. RE: Szeth's lack of ability; We know that Szeth, despite my theory, is not Bound to a Spren by WoB. Also by WoB we know that Kaladin is much stronger at Surgebinding than Szeth. Whether this means that Kaladin is super strong or that Szeth is weak we cannot really know as of yet. This lack or strength or lack of a Nahel Bond could contribute to his inability to use Plate and Surgebind at the same time. Or it could just be lack of knowledge. RE: Elokhar's weakened spheres; I like your ideas here. Elokhar, much like Kaladin, and probably Dalinar, is Surgebinding by instinct and not realizing it. We never see him glowing like Dalinar does though, that I can recall at least. This could go back to the idea that Dalinar is simply strong enough to overcome the blockage made by the gems at the conduits where the Plate is meant to be able to absorb Stormlight. So Elokhar, much like Szeth I would imagine, is having an internal battle which he doesn't know how to fight. His innate Surgebinding abilities want to infuse him with Stormlight to make him a better fighter, but due to the blockage he is causing himself more harm than good. RE: Why the armor doesn't glow now; I feel as if this could be similar to the way a laptop works. When the laptop is plugged into the wall the keyboard is backlit, the screen is bright, it uses all of the processing power it has available to it. When it's on battery, the backlighting for the keyboard shuts off, the screen dims, processing is throttled to conserve battery life. Plate appears to work in this fashion. We see that when someone begins to run out of the Stormlight reserves in their gems the Plate slowly gets weaker instead of instantaneously shutting off. RE: Brandon's quote; The way in which Plate gets its abilities could be similar to the way in which the Dor works. The power is there, but held back by something and requires a key, in this example an Aon, in order to be released. RE: Gems as keys to the Stormlight; Gems are an excellent way to store Stormlight, but that doesn't mean they are a good conduit for it. So a gem can be used to access the locked away Stormlight the Plate can reach. They however aren't very effective. This could be similar to the way a corrected Aon would work (Elantris spoilers) but only kind of to access the Dor. The Aons only half worked because they could only draw so much Dor at a time because it was being blocked by the larger Aon's flaws. RE: Why use a straw when you've got a fire hose; I don't feel like the Plate itself can access the Stormlight which is locked away unless it has a tool to do so. We currently see the Plate using gems to gain access to Stormlight, but in small amounts of a long period of time. This could be what causes Plate to take so long to regrow. It's stuck in reserve mode, much like our laptop that isn't plugged into the wall. The Plate wants to use the Stormlight from the gems, but also wants that Stormlight to last as long as possible. From this we can infer that the Plate will just keep feeding and feeding on the Stormlight until it is in full repair. It also tells us that both parts of the Plate will try to feed on the Stormlight, trying to correct itself instead of say allowing itself to dissipate and reform to where its owner is. Taking that into consideration I feel like a person, when the gems aren't in the way, infused with Stormlight makes a much better conduit for the Stormlight. In fact it is basically stated on the numerous occasions where it talks about people leaking Stormlight all over the place. We also don't ever see a limit to how much Stormlight a person can hold at any given time. This type of huge conductivity could provide a HUGE amount of Stormlight for the Plate to use at any given time. Quickly regarding gems v. people. Gems appear to act like batteries, where people feel more like a wire. Batteries are great and all, but stacking a bunch of batteries in a line to get the electricity from point A to point B would be terribly inefficient, but adding wire in between makes it a lot more effective. With a proper conduit to use to access this Locked away Stormlight both the Surgebinder and the Plate now can use a much larger storage of Stormlight. Now we get to some crazy ideas; RE: Instant generation of pieces of Plate; We see Plate seemingly appear and disappear at the will of its wearer in Dalinar's visions. The connection created between the Plate and wearer by the Stormlight could lend them some dominion over its nature, granting them the ability to dismiss pieces (or potentially the whole set) in much the same way they do the Blade. With this much faster access to much larger amounts of Stormlight, the Plate could be regrown instantaneously. Perhaps the only reason Plate doesn't provide this function at the moment is that it can tell it won't have access to the Stormlight to grow back instantly so it refuses to do so. Now we see how Stormlight leaks from the Glyphs, and also from the KR's eyes, but it doesn't seem to be the massive flow of Stormlight we commonly see from Szeth. Szeth also mentions that Voidbringers (who were the KR's enemies and many assume were analogous to KR) could hold Stormlight perfectly. Now this could just be an exaggeration, but it appears someone wearing Plate can hold onto Stormlight much better than someone without it. Szeth here also seems to hint at a potential cap for how much Stormlight a person can hold, saying it feels like his body is going to tear apart. Plate could potentially increase this limit by acting as a buffer. Now for the craziest idea I have; We never see the KR absorbing Light from gems in the way that is common now. We also don't see a KR running out of Stormlight. (At least not that I can remember in either case.) This could just be happenstance, but what if a Surgebinder can use the Plate and it's conduits to access this locked away Stormlight? This could negate the need for storing Stormlight in gems and provide a HUGE advantage to whomever figures it out first. OK... I'm done being a crackpot theorist.... for now. xD

Testing? I can't seem to reply to this thread, but others are just fine....

The need to create a 'burst' through Duralumin would be unnecessary. Simply burning the currently Invested Nicrosil, would create more Investure than was stored initially, which could then be burned again to create more Investiture. I feel as if the creation of, as you put it "large amounts of blank Investiture," is necessary. Then, once you have it you could determine a purpose. Much in the way a Breath is a 'blank' Investiture until it is given color and command. The end result isn't the Investiture which is stored in the Metalmind, but rather the effect of using that massive amount of Investiture to affect something through burning it Allomantically.

We know that Shardpools are the Cognitive forms of a Shard by WoB. We also know by WoB, that Spren, are of the Cognitive realm, but can appear in the Physical Realm. Whether that is of their own accord or caused by Cognitive/Spiritual pressure from belief isn't really stated. Is it really that far of a stretch to then say that this Cognitive thing can also have a Physical form? But then I guess by that argument, how much different from a Spren would that make her?

I think that the lack of any native, visible Spren is caused by the lack of belief in them making them wan or weaker. Brandon has made comment (I don't know where it is off the top of my head) that seems to infer that Spren are something Cognitive that has slipped a little bit into the Physical Realm due to the Cognitive pressure of belief, but aren't really Physical. (I'll look for the quote, it had something to do about taking a picture of a Spren and whether or not it would show up.) So in Shinovar, where there is such overwhelming disbelief, none of the native Spren will have enough of this Cognitive pressure to be able to appear in the Physical Realm. The Spren are still there, and still cause their influences, i.e. the Machine still working, but I bet if someone really looked one of two things would happen, and mind you this is somewhat of a cop-out since I'm not exactly sure how much Cognitive Pressure is needed to affect the Physical Realm. 1. The Spren inside the Fabrial would not be able to be seen due to the strong disbelief disrupting the Physical form of the Spren. 2. The Spren, empowered by Cognitive Pressure it had received in the past in combination with Rysn and her Babsk's belief would allow it to keep a Physical presence. I'm inclined to believe the second one is more likely to be true, whereas we never see a Spren which is Bonded to Szeth. He can however, see the Spren all over Alethkar, due to the Cognitive pressure created by those around him which believe in them. They would not however affect the Spren which is Bound to him, because they would have no knowledge of that kind of Spren and therefore could not create the Cognitive pressure required to counteract Szeth's and the Shen's disbelief which created a large amount of negative pressure over a large amount of time. However, just because this Spren doesn't have a corporeal form, doesn't mean it can't affect the world. We see as Kaladin and Syl's Bond grows stronger and his and the Bridgecrew's belief in her and Kaladin grows stronger she seems to be more and more corporeal. There are strange cases, such as with Rock, where he seems to be able to see Spren he shouldn't be able to. This I would assume is caused by a combination of a strong Spiritual and Cognitive pressure he creates due to the fact that his people worship the Spren almost like Gods. Perhaps he would be able to see a Spren bound to Szeth? I don't know, because I don't know how strong either belief is. Though I would imagine it would come down to who believed stronger, Rock or Szeth.

I literally just spent nearly an hour typing and found one quote which completely obliterates my theory on the use or need of two Spren. GAHELOINOIWJEWE Scrap it. Throw my theory away.

I concede your argument about him needing to be out fighting. The Heralds, as far as I can tell have varying ages and descriptions. When you look at the picture here they appear to be of vastly ranging ages. Granted, someone would PROBABLY have noticed over the last 20 years Dalinar having not aged. Though this could perhaps be another affect of the Old Magic. His appearance is described as 'aging' so perhaps that contributes to the lack of speculation on his lack of aging. And are we sure that the Heralds are ageless? I haven't seen anything which says that for sure. It's a likely assumption and you're probably right, but in support of my crackpot theory I'm going to assume that either the Old Magic or some ability (which Dalinar would be unaware he is using) allows him to appear or become aged. EDIT:: After all, Lightweaving is an ability which can be used by some Orders. The fact that Dalinar is such a good warrior, described as the best of all time, could be due to innate knowledge he has about warfare after having spent millenia fighting in the Desolations.

The capitalization is just habit, NORMALLY Brandon capitalizes anything important. I don't think that Honorspren refers to a distinct form of Spren, but rather any Spren which has been Invested by Honor. My thought process in regards to two Spren is the fact that every KR has two abilities which define which Order they are in. I think that perhaps Honorspren don't have to be any particular type of Spren, but is a Spren which is Invested in by Honor in some way and that's what makes it an Honorspren. I highly doubt that someone will receive two separate Surges from one Spren. So it seems logical to me that two Spren are involved. This is also somewhat supported by the thought that the Shardblades and Shardplate are potentially created from all the Oaths having been sworn and the Nahel Bonds becoming complete. This Bond, I feel, is probably the "missing thing" that is mentioned in regards to current Plate and Blade not having the same powers it used to. I feel like Honorspren (capitalizing it again lol) are necessary (no matter what their base-form, whether it be Cryptic or Windspren etc.) in order to be able to commit to the First Ideal. It is ALL about Honor, so I feel that connection to Honor is required in order to truly be able to swear the Oath. Simply being honest, artistic, or creative gives you no REAL reason to swear "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." So I strongly believe the connection to Honor is required. Perhaps in Shallan's case one of the Cryptics happens to be Invested by Honor which could make it an Honorspren as well as being a Cryptic. I also believe that the Voidbringers are similar in this manner and this is what Nohadon is speaking about when talking about Spren which aren't as discerning as Honorspren. I believe these might be the Odiumspren, a Spren which has been in someway Invested or influenced by Odium, we saw in Dalinar's vision. I believe that a Bond would need to be formed with one of those Spren would be required to become a Voidbringer.

I don't... I explicitly state a number of times that other Spren create the Bond as well. In my post two posts up I state that I think most people who join the KR Bond to two Spren. An Honorspren and one which isn't an Honorspren. I even state that the Honorspren bond isn't even required in order to form other Bonds, but in order to move up the ranks and gain more power from Honor you have to be bound to either an Honorspren in order to create a strong Bond with Honor and be able to make the Oath to the first Ideal, or an Odium/Void/Whateveryouwanttocallitspren which would provide you a similar Bond to Odium in order to gain higher levels of power. Take Shallan for example, she is Bound to a Spren which is not an Honorspren and has abilities which she can use. I don't deny that. Like I said above though, if Shallan formed a Bond with an Honorspren and was able to make the First Oath she would then be able to make the subsequent Oaths and become stronger with her Surgebinding. Then let's say Jasnah, only Bonds to her Cryptic and never forms a Bond with an Honorspren she would never be able to make the First Oath, and therefore never gain the level of power someone who has made both Bonds can attain. I'm not sure if my original post was overly vague as to what I was trying to say or you missed a part of it, but I NEVER say that all Nahel Bonds are with Honorspren. Just that the Honorspren Bond is required in order to become a KR and speak the First Oath and form a connection with Honor. (Or an Odiumspren to similarly connect oneself to Odium.)

I do not believe that the flute is related to Lightweaving, but Lightweaving is said to be an ability that certain Orders of the Knights Radiant can use. Also, other people from Hoid's homeworld, Yolen, can likely use Lightweaving.

I doubt that considering he only has a single bead of Lerasium. I would imagine he would use it for something more important. Though we don't actually know what can be stored in Lerasium through Feruchemy so you could be right, but I don't think it's very plausible.

I see. That makes more sense.