Kelek's Breath

See epigraph in above response. People of Roshar knew who built Urithiru. They no longer know and neither do we.

I don't doubt that he was a Radiant and probably a Bondsmith. But he does mention arriving at the gate in Urithiru where he was not recognized after his long journey. The thread is good, thank you. Lots of info there i had overlooked. Again, Nohadon mentions arriving at a gate from a road. Nohadon is a Radiant (from the conversation he had with Karm/Dalinar). If Ishar had started the "be better or else" speech, his spren would know. I assume Ishar has some type of power that can influence the spren (or else his threat would be empty). The Heralds have already left by the way the conversation goes. There are groups/teams of surgebinders working together (Karm had such a team) but it seems that they do not get along because they want to rule over people (god given right and such). I don't think a proto-Bondsmith would have the same influence as a god-like Herald. Of course, we do not know what the powers of a Bondsmith are, but I am going with what we know so far. There is an epigraph in TWoK that says: This would imply that people at least knew who built it. The Heralds, Honor? By the hands of no man might be through Soulcasters? I just think that if Nohadon did all this, then he lived a very long time, beyond regular Rosharan lifespan.

I don't want to disagree with you, because I myself don't know what is true, but if it was fabrial mechanics it would imply advanced civilization, and what we've seen in times of Desolations, is people wearing leather clothing, i.e primitive levels of civilization. Which would mean no advanced fabrials. And surgebinders would need to work together, which is clearly not the case (witness Kholinar in the vision which has basic stonewroks and primitive housing (compared to modern day Roshar). I do agree that there may have been multiple Nohadons and the 2 are different people.

While reading the ending of WoR, where Shalan is wondering about Nohadon walking to Urithiru, it struck me that there may be some inconsistencies in what he claims. Many thanks to Lightflame and this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2551-theory-that-one-guy-isnt-nohadon/?hl=nohadon#entry44934 because it got me thinking that Nohadon from the vision and in world author ot TWoK Nohadon may be different people. Let's see why this may be: 1. In the in-world book TWoK, Nohadon claims that after the Desolation he lived a comfortable life. He also claims to have walked to Urithiru. Aside the fact that in WoR, Shallan thinks to herself that walking would not have been possible, since the city was high up in the mountains and they had not found any way down besides the Oathgates. So, either the way is magically sealed or, Nohadon walked to another city, or Nohadon did not walk to Urithiru. 2.Assuming the vision Dalinar had was of Nohadon, it occurs at the end of a Desolation. Meaning that the Heralds are going back to wherever it is they go after Desolations. The Knights Radiant still do not exist, but Surgebinders as a group do. The Nohadon of the vision bemoans the fact that there needs to be some kind of regulation on Surgebinding. But, according to the in-world WoR, Ishar is the one who imposed the oaths on the Surgebinders and made them into Knights Radiant. BUT, this would have to have happened during at least the next Desolation after Dalinar's vision, once Ishar returned and thus after Nohadon's lifetime (unless, you know Nohadon has a longer than usual lifespan). 3.In the in-world TWoK, Urithiru and oathgates exist. But you say, didn't the Radiants create those? Well, let us assume they did. After all, in the lore and books, it is they that use them. So, can this be explained if vision Nohadon is actual author Nohadon? Can a non-existant organization at the time of the vision, build such a majestic tower and the oathgates in the span of a king's regular lifetime? Let's assume he lived another 50 years. Could he have united the surgebinders, got them to work togther and rebuild Roshar, and afterwards build The enormous tower at Urithiru and the Oathgates? In 50 years? Sounds highly unlikely. 4.There is assumed to be an Oathgate in each of the capitals of the Silver Kingdoms. Yet vision Nohadon doesn't mention any known city or kingdom from that list. Is it because the Silver Kingdoms came about after the Radiants formed? 5.It follows that: a)if vision Nohadon is author Nohadon, then he found a way (through the Nahel bond maybe?) to extend his life through at least more than one Desolation so that he was able to witness/assist in the formation of the Knights Radiant and then write his memoirs down. There is a large time discrepancy that can only be explained through magical means. b)vision Nohadon is not author Nohadon because: The Knights Radiant organization does not exist in the vision, yet author Nohadon mentions them so casually in his book, as if they have been around for so long a time, that people of his time easily recognize them; if Ishar organized them, then the radiants would have been founded at the beginning of or during a Desolation, meaning vision Nohadon would not have been alive; Urithiru,could not have been in existence during the vision, but only after, but that would have taken at least one more Desolation for the Radiants to form and many years to build; Oathgates are being used and they are not some novel invention, because everyone chides Nohadon for walking instead of using the Oathgates. c)Urithiru is not in the same place as it used to be, or it is not the same city as that which Nohadon described. It may be a city built at a different location and date than in book Urithiru, and the original Oathgates were just surgebinders that personally elsecalled people to Uirthiru. Thank you for reading.

Can we possibly guess at what the sphere is by way of deducing what it is not? For example: It's not a stormlight infused gem. It does not hold a regular spren. The Parshendi do not know Gavilar has it (or else they would have instructed Szeth to pick it up). The Ghostbloods may want it/are looking for it. It cannot fall into the hands of the wrong people (ie Ghostbloods, Restares). Any other WoBs saying what it is not? As well, to note, Gavilar trusts a servant of the Parshendi with the sphere. What does that say about his trust of the rest of the Alethi and the Sons of Honor with this possibly dangerous item?

I am going to take a wild stab and say that maybe this esoteric magic is related to the specific abilities that some Radiants are exhibiting, like Shallan's mnemonic ability or Jasnah's sense of direction. They don't seem tied to surgebinding or their spren, but they do seem magical in nature. These abilities certainly are esoteric (private, internal, restricted to few). The question is, why would they only be limited to surgbinders? (Unless the boon/curse Nightwatcher thing, is tied in and was a way to grant any Rosharan with these abilities before Cultivation became disinterested, or before Honor died and the whole magic system fell apart).

Maybe this re-write will be what Kaladin will be debating with himself in book 3, just like in WoR he kept asking Syl and himself if killing Parshendi was honorable? He keeps asking "was it right to let him die in exchange for a sword?" or some such (yes, more of Kaladin beating himself up over his choices) instead of "could I have not killed him?" And Brandon thinks this works better to introduce the next oath. It may also be more necessary for Szeth's arc, when he goes back to Shinovar, and will allow him to think about the mercy he was shown by Kaladin. A third option is that Brandon wants to highlight some inconsistencies in Syl and spren in general, which will be made clearer in book 3.

I actually don't mind that Kaladin doesn't kill him. It shows both Kaladin's honor and Szeth's and it will actually set up for a better "reunion" when they meet further down in the series fighting Odium's armies. One question: does having his wrist slashed by a shardblade count as severing Szeth's bond to the Honorblade? Is it bonded to the entire person or just the hand? Also, Kaladin healed himself from Szeth's strike the first time they met, so the living/dead shardblade question can be ansewred both ways. But, Syl hadn't manifested as a shardblade yet, so maybe/possibly it's wounds made by a living shardblade can be healed?

So, are you implying Kaladin is seeing through the Stormfather's eyes here? Because we certainly don't have any other descriprions of stormlight from Rosharans that are like this description. And can he see through the Stormfather because he is joined to Syl who is a small piece of Honor?

Does anyone know what Kaladin is seeing in TWoK Ch. 46, Child of Tanavast, when he is riding the storm? He goes on to see Szeth standing over 2 dead people. Are the flashes stormlight that Szeth is drawing from the air? But the Highstorm hasn't reached him yet? Is Kaladin seeing how stormlight usage looks in the cognitive/spiritual realms? Nothing in the books shows stormlight/investiture appearing in this form, and Szeth's surges don't give him any lightning throwing capabilities. If anyone has an answer, please feel free to help me understand this.

Ok, I re-read the Istow chapters, and these quotes are from Ch. 57, To Kill the Wind, and are from Kaladin's perspective: So, either she doesn't feel comfortable in allowing Kaladin to duel and beat lighteye shardbearers, or she seems reluctant and disturbed because the people she was supporting were losing. Either way, to me it seems her feelings and emotions and preferences are getting in the way of properly judging the contest, and thus Nale & the Highspren would exclude her from the Skybreakers.

Actually, from what is described in the scene of the 4 vs 1 duel, it seems she was paid off by the Sadeas faction. She seems uncomfortable during the fight, and too slow to react. If you read a little further you should be able to see which character makes the remark.

I think you are on the right track. Both Szeth and Ali are right about the stones. Szeth calls stones both sacred and cursed. So, I think it is location that determines whether they are or aren't. So, yes, the stonewalkers are doing something profane by walking on the holy stone, but stone in the east is cursed because of it's location and what happens on it, not just by being walked on it. I think it's the killing and hate that makes the stone cursed. And Urithiru might be holy because blood cannot or has not been spilled there (Adolin's actions now may open the door to Odium to influence Urithiru)?

Assuming your theory is on the right track, can your theory fit in the fact that spren bonded with humans after the Oathpact had formed (as per Tanavast, after the spren saw what Honor had done with the Honorblades and the Heralds)? Because the surges need to be around for the theory to work. It would be an interesting twist if it did work like this though. I like the idea of Knights Radiant leaving the Plate and Blades for the future generations. My only other qualm is what Jasnah says, that right before desolations the ranks of the K.R. would swell. I don't think we can take anything scholars, even Jasnah, say about the Heralds and Desolations and K.R. at face value, because they have almost no first hand witnesses of the events. All they have is hearsay from mostly hundreds of years after the Recreance. Sorry wrong thread for that.

Here is the relevant paragraph where it is mentioned about Ishar (WoR, Epigraph of Chapter 42): As for the Amaram example, I assumed when you said that the K.R at the time of the Recreance were gaming the system, I assumed you meant that they tricked the spren into granting them surges by acting/pretending to be moral. Coupled with what Ishar did to bind the K.R. and spren, I don't see any other way to game the system except by tricking the spren. What did you have in mind?

I want to agree with you, but... 2 things. 1) Honor is definitely trying to stop Odium from destroying other Shards as well (reference last vision of TWoK where the stars start going out), and 2) when Kaladin remarks to Syl that he should have sent the Bridgemen away instead of them becoming bodyguards and risking death, Syl, an honorspren says that the Bridgemen chose freely to risk themselves to protect Dalinar. maybe the same is true of the Heralds. They may have known the cost of protecting Roshar was torture, death, etc but chose to do so anyway. So maybe this doesn't conflict with the Oathpact being established long after Tanavast became Honor.

Good job on your first post. We've seen Tyn gather anger spren when she was acting out being angry, so it is possible to trick emotional spren. But tricking spren like Honourspren or Cryptics? Might be tough due to the restrictions Ishar has placed on the nahel Bond. Or else, we would have probably seen Amaram attract one long time ago, since he was viewed as one of the most honourable lighteyes.

I agree with the whole torture thing not being an Honorish thing (unless sacrificing yourself to save others is of Honor?), but don't forget that in the TWoK Prelude, Jezrien says that they took up the burden willingly. So they must have known what the Oathpact entailed (live to fight then die to be tortured).

Nale's been around for thousands of years, and so knows all about the Roshar fauna. So, it would not have been difficut in the past 4500 years for him to pick one up to us in situations such as the incident with Lift.

Point granted. It just seemed to me that killing Ym in an alley wasn't very lawman-like. Maybe Iri has different laws. Given that Nalan can somehow sense surgebinding, why wouldn't he have looked into Shallan, Kaladin and Jasnah's backstories? Or has he? I mean he's near the Shattered Plains, and he doesn't look them up?

Well, to figure out how a Desolation ends, shouldn't it be at least clear what a Desolation is and how it actually begins? For me, we have descriptions of what happens during a desolation, we know about voidbringers etc. but we don't know what the goal of a Desolation really is. Is it the destruction of all life on Roshar? Something else? And it's not clear what starts a Desolation. Is it when Heralds break under torture? Or is it a phenomenon which is predictable and mathematical in nature, just like a highstorm? There are clues for both of these options.

I don't think I would believe what Nalan is doing as being spot on. The order of things just doesn't seem correct right now. By that I mean we should have: Odium arrives->Oathpact->Heralds come to Roshar->Desolation arrives->Spren imitate Heralds and grant surgebinding to humans This according to Tanavast, that the spren copied the gift he had given the Heralds. To copy the gift, they would have to actually see the gift. And if Surgebinding leads to Desolations, then why is he telling Dalinar in the visions to refound the Knights Radiant, as the only way to stand up to Odium? As to if Surgebinding, leads to stronger Desolations (Kalak, in the TWoK Prelude, remarks on how Desolations were getting stronger as time progressed) it is a possibility. And Nalan is selective into which surgebinders he chases. People who have criminal pasts it seems, but why not Jasnah who has assasinated many people? Or Shallan who killed her mother? Maybe there is a type of surgebinder that he thinks will lead into Desolation. (Both Ym and Lift have the surge of regrowth, so maybe there is a connection there)

I believe (I have the hardcover books, so can't find exact page) the first time Kaladin sees him, he thinks to himself that Adolin's mother must have been from Rira due to the blond hair.

I am personally indecisive on this one being about the Parshendi. Den usually meant to describe a burrow or a hole in the ground. Perhaps if we equate Dawnsingers=Listeners, then maybe(remember the Dawnsingers probably hollowed out the mountain in Kharbranth). The Listeners, I believe, in one of the conversations with Dalinar/Gavilar when they first met, are shown to live in makeshift, above ground structures in the craters of the Shattered Plains. Although, Shallan meets Mraize in Sebarial's camp in a non-natural (ie dug-out) basement that pre-dated the Alethi. As well, when have the Listeners been in a place that burns, or hollow and forlorn? Have they also been in Damnation/Braize? Why do they have orange blood, when all other natural fauna have violet blood on Roshar? Is there WoB explicitly stating Listeners are native to Roshar? Because, if they are not... Unless, when whatever happened that made them lose their souls and songs and turned them into slaveform, sent their souls to Damnation, in the Spiritual afterlife (and there would be fire and burning because they would go their God's afterlife and Odium definitely is not a harp playing, float through clouds type of guy). Don't know how that would work though. Is it even possible? Either that, or this quote is about a different group. Note: I dislike calling them Parshendi. They call themselves the Listeners so I will too.

And your colours will stay vibrant even if you wash in crem filled water.