HoidsRock

Wow, you have all got me thinking and if I could ask BWS one question right now it would be:

"Can you use breath to awaken a deadeyes and would it recapture its some of it original spren personality?"  (sprenality?)

In book, we know that Adolin feels both loyalty to Maya and awful about her fate.  The Stormfather has said he does know any way a deadeye can be awakened."

Real world, BWS has simply it would be extremely difficult.  So maybe Zahel worked with Adolin and his sword is an awakened Maya?

What a great post.  I was planning on doing one titled “windrunner roll call” but figure I will add it here so that it is all in one place.

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Kaladin had some three hundred Windrunners at this point—though only around fifty full knights. Almost all of the surviving original members of Bridge Four had bonded a spren by now, as had many of the second wave—those who had joined him soon after he had moved to Dalinar’s camp. Even some of the third wave—those who had joined the Windrunners after moving to Urithiru—had found a spren to bond.

Surviving members of the original Bridge 4 would be at least 28 people not including Kaladin.  My math is as follows:

34 not including Kaladin went to the battle of the Tower.

Shen/Rlain were left at the warcamp, along with the wounded Kaladin wanted to go back for (where I get the at least from).

3 were lost at the battle of the Tower.

2 were lost at the battle of Narak,

Eth dies in the attack on Urithiru.

Since it reads “almost all” versus “all,” who is missing?  I will assume Rlain (who I am hoping has his own story arc in ROW), and Dabbid.  As to Rock, I have omitted him here as I plan on writing a separate post about him.

Teft, Lopen, and Drehy have all reached the 3^rd ideal.  Teft at the end of OB, Lopen and Drehy have shard spears:

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Lopen and Drehy moved up beside him, floating slowly, brilliant Shardspears forming in their waiting hands

Sigzil clearly has a spren but I could use some help interpreting this line:

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Kaladin grabbed [Sigzil], holding him as he blinked in a daze, clutching his silvery Shardspear.

Who is clutching the Shardspear?  I read it as Sigzil.  But when he drops his spear in recognition of losing the fight, there is no further comment about the spear vanishing. 

 

 

Sigzil: a bonded knight that I am guessing has reached the third ideal.

Skar: We see that he has a spear as Kaladin has to dodge it in his first fight with Leshwi, but it is not identified either as a normal spear or Shardspear.  Nor is a spren identified.  However, I am assuming he is included in the “most” of bridge 4.

Leyton: Only mentioned as flying by, chasing a heavenly one.

Kara:  Distinctly mentioned as someone who should be at the 3^rd ideal but does not have a spren.

Lyn:  No mention of a spren but if she has one, she is not at the 3^rd ideal. Lyn “carried a functional—but ordinary—lance under her arm.”

Did I miss anyone?

Interesting points about Mraize.  We do agree that he is reliable in regards to his opinion about Ialai.  I was taking my lead from Pattern in response to Mraize's letter to Shallan:

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“Secrets,” Pattern said. “There are lies in this letter.”

Oathbringer: p. 422

Of course, Pattern has a broad definition of "lie."

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How sure are we that Amaram was and is a true believer?

 

I've argued in the past that I think he was, at he was in WOR.  Certainly, the one POV we get from him seems to imply that he believed in the cause.  Don't get me wrong, I think he was a narcissist with delusions of grandeur and I agree that Gavilar could easily manipulate him. 

Now "true believer" needs defining of course.  I'm using in the most non-cynical sense that when Amaram says it, he believes it in that very moment even if he stops believing it later on (i.e. not I am talking about sincerity of belief and not depth of belief).  The only thing Amaram believes with any depth is that Amaram is great!

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is the only option that really makes sense to me.  Gavilar is a master of men.  He could read Amaram like a book.  He knows that A might make a useful tool but I doubt he trusted the guy any farther then I want to kick him.

 

 

It definitely would explain the tension between Restares and Gavilar, particularly if the former is the truest of true believers.  But then it makes Gavilar an even lower form of crem for forcing Jasnah to marry Amaram. (not saying Gavilar wouldn't do it; the side of him we see in this prologue is someone who clearly feels justified in whatever actions they need to take).

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

1. Will we finally see Restares?

I hope so.  As I mentioned in another post, I find it so interesting that Gavilar lists him as suspect #2 in his assassination.  Did they disagree over direction/control of SoH?  Or (my pet theory) does something change Gavilar's mind about SoH between seeing Jasnah and his death so that his final appeal is to his "mediocre" brother (ROW prologue) as opposed to Amaram or another SoH.  Also at end of WOR, we get Amaram POV and he does not seem to recognize any daylight between the two.  I think he will turn out to be some high ranking ardent.

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2. How did Ialai learn of the Sons of Honor, and does she buy into their cause, or does she just want to hijack them?

I bet it is a marriage of convenience as the SoH want to undermine Dalinar and she wants revenge.  I don't think Mraize is necessarily a reliable narrator but I think he is correct that Ialai is too unstable for any cause except her own. 

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3. Are the Sons of Honor corrupted by Odium Amaram-style or are they still idependent?

My guess is they are still independent.  I have no idea how big an organization they are, but Odium trying to corrupt the entire religious organization...well it seems like there would have been some resistance and somebody in the organization would have said something. The battle of Thaylen Fields needed the surprise of Amaram's betrayal.  I think Odium corrupted Amaram with a long, slow burn, believing that that, along with Dalinar becoming his champion, would be all he needed.

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If they are idependent, what is their goal now? The Desolation and the Radiants are back.

Well, they were more focused on the Heralds than the Radiants and the latter are led by a heretic who thinks the Almighty is dead. Maybe they adopted a new theory:  The Almighty is testing their faithfulness with one last additional test and they need to remove Dalinar to truly bring back the Heralds!  They would not be the first group to modify their revelation on the fly.

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5. Are Mraize and the Ghostbloods involved in any capacity

I bet they are and I hope they're not!  Bad news!

3 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Restares was his second guess, not Roshone. 
 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Restares

Thank you!  Complete and utter brain freeze!  I meant Restares the entire time!  I will edit.

9 hours ago, Gilphon said:

But also- Shallan's plotline is apparently about Iaiai Sadeas and the Sons of Honor, both of which are distinctly c-list antagonists at this point.

Actually, I think there is still an important plotline out there about the Sons of Honor--namely, Restares.  In the flashbacks, Gavilar seems to have at the very least a "passing grade" opinion of his fellow Son of Honor, Amaram and a low opinion of Dalinar.  Yet, while dying, his second guess, is that Restares has enlisted Szeth.  Why?  Did he and Restares fight over control of the SoH?  Was Gavilar not really a member but used them for his own ends?

But also, in those dying moments, he asks Szeth to leave a message to Dalinar and not to Amaram.  Yeah, I know Dalinar is his brother but Dalinar apparently could not be trusted to be brought in on his plans.  Why didn't he reach out to Amaram?  My working theory is that something changed in the time period when Jasnah sees Gavilar and Szeth fights him that makes him no longer trust the SoH.  Gavilar's POV in Book 5 will reveal it.

23 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I think it's just from spheres filled with Voidlight. That Fused is not able to teleport stuff with them, not even clothes or weapons - hence the hair as clothing and outgrows of carapace as weapons.

I think you are right.  And the Fused probably left not only to get reinforcements but may also have used up the voidlight he brought to Hearthstone.

Somehow, seeing that Kaladin has regularly been visiting Hearthstone surprised me.  I don't why but it did.

I think Kmakl's speech is a foreshadowing for Lirin.  I.e. just as navies will in the future be less necessary so surgeons are less necessary in the world of edgedancers.  How Lirin deals with this and how it effects his relationship with Kaladin remains to be seen.

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Syl walked up to him in the air. “[Your parents are] like I remember them.” “

Remember them?” Kaladin whispered. “Syl, you never knew me when I lived here.”

“That’s true,” she said.

“So how can you remember them?” Kaladin said, frowning.

“Because I do,” Syl said, flitting around him. “Everyone is connected, Kaladin. Everything is connected. I didn’t know you then, but the winds did, and I am of the winds.”

“You’re honorspren.”

“The winds are of Honor,” she said, laughing as if he’d said something ridiculous. “We are kindred blood.”

Oathbringer, Ch 6

Count me as perplexed as Kaladin.  I understand that windspren are the lesser spren to windrunners but how they help Syl know Kaladin’s parents or how these non-sapient windspren can pass on memories is beyond me.  For that matter, Syl says “the winds” and it is an assumption that “the winds” equal “windspren”

But my confusion did not stop me having a moment of sheer joy in the chapter 7 reading.  The fabrial takes Kaladin’s powers though he can still feel the stormlight inside.  The listeners began to taunt him as having nothing beyond his stormlight driven powers to protect him.  Mid-taunt, Kaladin strikes and:

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Kaladin felt the wind encircle him as he spun between the two of them…

Is that just the wind being pulled into a burning building or is the wind actively aiding Kaladin? 

I searched the other three novels for "Kaladin" and the "wind" and as you might guess there is a lot—way too many to discuss here.  But two passages struck out to me.  One is from the first scene where Kaladin appears, where he defends Cenn:

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For a moment, Cenn thought he could see something surrounding the squadleader. A warping of the air, like the wind itself become visible.

WOK chapter 1

A second passage is from WOR and is the opposite, after Kaladin has failed (for the time being) to be a KR and broken the Nahel bond.  He goes to the training ground and performs a kata:

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He sought peace and purpose in the comfortable forms. He didn’t find either. His balance was off, and his leg screamed. The rain didn’t accompany him; it just annoyed him. Worse, the wind didn’t blow. The air felt stale.

WOR chapter 81: italics mine

 

 

In this same passage, Kaladin ponders if his skill comes from the Nahel bond alone.   The answer is no as he had it before he met Syl (and Teft at the end of WOK notes that Radiance does not give skill). 

But clearly Kaladin is at his best with the winds around him.

Why?  Do the winds convey power to Kaladin, apart from the bond?  Are the winds searching for potential windrunners and conveying small bits of power as part of an audition? 

I have no answers here.  But I will give my answer to my own question above:

The winds are actively aiding him when the Nahel bond is not. 

1 hour ago, Wax said:

It's a dual wield, maybe?  One standard and the other is the honorblade 

That is my theory.  Kaladin has him surrender the original blade Adolin gifted and Moash holds on to the honor blade.

I wonder if that explains the eye color--the green eyes caused by the eye colors of the swords mixing (sapphire and light tan).  

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally think that Rock is the human equivalent of a ryshadium.  Basically he has some kind of spren bond that increases his strength and lets him see shadesmar.

Okay, I love this idea.  Does he have some sort of a gemheart or just a general symbiotic relationship?  (And do we know the same answer about the Ryshadium?)

3 minutes ago, Invocation said:

I can't wait to find out where Rlain went, and see how that intersects with the rogue listeners running around the Plains.

Totally!  Where is THUDE???!!!

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

But other questions... I mean, we're talking relatively minor details here, not major plot twists or anything, right? Things a reader could conceivably not notice on there first read though. 

Yes, kind of what I was thinking.  Just the threads here and there.  May and may not turn out to be something. 

I have been rereading WOR to distract myself from, well, out there.  In doing so, I am once again struck by BWS' continuity and his ability to answer some questions and let others linger.  Here is one of each.

"I was off duty, sir," Teft said.  "Went to see what I could find in the market.  Do I need to report every little thing I do?"

"You went to the market to the market," Kaladin said, "in a highstorm?"

"Time may have gotten away from me for a breath or two..." Teft said, looking away.

Chapter 41 WOR

This question of where was Teft off to was answered was in OB.  Pretty clearly he was off abusing firemoss.

 

One question not answered in OB--a question I did not even notice until I reread WOR is that of Rock's great strength.  Sure he is big but he seems to have a strength that surprises even Kaladin.  While in the chasms sparring with Rock, Lopen and Sigzil, he notices that Rock is swinging a log at his head:

An entire log.  How had Rock lifted the that thing?

Chapter 12 WOR

This question is not answered in OB.  Rather, it was built upon when Rock kills Amaram with the shardbow:

Kaladin glanced toward Rock, who stood over Amaram’s body, looking down, the enormous bow held limply in one hand. How had he drawn it? Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn’t vastly improve strength.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1189). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So when will BWS answer it?  The Rock short story? ROW?  Any theories out there?

What other questions were answered?  Left pending for a later book?

 

 

To my knowledge, we have no direct evidence of their fate.  But I agree with you that they will show up again.  Another hint is that Dalinar promises Rlain that if any normal Parshendi survive, he will protect them.  After Rlain's POV in OB, we don't see him on-screen again.  I have often thought he has gone to search for any missing Parshendi.

First of all, I think this is a very interesting discussion.

Second, I am in the Adolin thumbs-up camp--pretty much everywhere. (Maya fully alive, check!).

Third, I think there is an interesting plot line with Adolin that BWS develops in Wheel of Time but sort of runs out of space.  Now I do know that the 17th shard explicitly avoids the involvement of the Wheel of Time so I don't know if there is a special way to block spoilers or if merely mentioning WOT is taboo.  Moderators, please jump in if I have crossed a line.

Spoiler for WOT, Towers of Midnight:

Adolin occupies a unique place in-world.  He begins the series in the role of the dashing, foppish prince.  Third in succession to the most powerful kingship in Roshar, heir to the most powerful princedom.  He moves to anger and resentment towards the lowly darkeyes promoted to captain while not understanding his place.  By the end of OB, he is actually feeling inferior to Kaladin!  He has gone from the top of the Rosharan social pyramid to wondering where he fits.

Quite often in long series, I find that authors reflect turmoil with body count--you thought things were crazy before, just look at how many people I killed in this scene!  I feel through the character of Adolin, BWS tries to partially reflect in-world in a sympathetic character's disorientation.

One final note.  I enjoy, and hope to seem more of,  Adolin's relationship with Kaladin.  Kaladin had one true friend who didn't allow himself to be awed by the Stormblessed--Moash (it didn't work out too well).  Adolin has a close relationship with another lighteyes, Jakamov (it didn't work out too well).  The way these two characters struggle with one another and yet grudgingly like each other is again something I want to see more of.

 

I too think @RShara has got this right and agree that the hatred of the robbers in Kharbranth is significant.   It certainly struck Shallan that way:

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Jasnah: "Besides, men like those …” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before.

What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it?

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 535). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Taranvangian boon was capacity and compassion.  At least in his own thinking, his curse is that they never occur at the same time:

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Storms take you, Nightwatcher, [Taranvangian] thought. Odium’s victory will kill you too. Couldn’t you have just gifted me, and not cursed me?

He’d asked for the capacity to save his people. He’d begged for compassion and acumen—and he’d gotten them. Just never at the same time.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1214). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

The fact that Jasnah calls him Wit and not Hoid has bugged me for a while.  Wit seems to be a title entirely from his role in Elkohar's court (although we know from the Second Letter that apparently Hoid thinks it's appropriate).  I don't believe Jasnah was ever with the Alethi armies on the Shattered Plains and based on this statement from Adolin makes, it seems that he is new to the position.

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This new Wit had been with them for some months, and there was something … different about him.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 198). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

On the other hand, we have this statement from Jasnah to Shallan while in Kharbranth:

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“I prefer my wards to be clever,” Jasnah said. “It gives me more to work with. I should bring you to court with me. I suspect that Wit, at least, would find you amusing—if only because your apparent natural timidity and your clever tongue make such an intriguing combination.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 461). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So Jasnah knows of Wit in his role in court.  How?  If Jasnah had called him Hoid, I would have no problem believing their paths had crossed.  Maybe their paths crossed before Wit's initial journey to the Shattered Plains?  He told he planned to become Wit and she found out by spanreed he was successful.

Alternately, given his coming and going, he met Jasnah after becoming Wit and yet still was able to prove his bona fides to her as the King's Wit.  But mostly I am stymied.

1 hour ago, AC12 said:

Wow well done @HoidsRock, much more in depth than what I had thanks for the insight.

Thanks, and all kidding aside, I appreciate you putting the topic up.  BWS has made clear that the Heralds will continue to move beyond cameos in future (the most obvious being Ash and Taln getting their own books), so keeping scorecards of what we know so far, helps me tremendously.

Wow @AC12, two days ago I started writing a long post about the Heralds but have been caught up with other things and so have not checked the board.  When I got here, I saw this.  In other words you scooped me .

So I will edit mine and just put in a few comments of the Heralds I have the most interest or questions about.

Jezrien

Having encountered Abu's page time in OB, I more appreciate Nale's snide comment in the Lift Interlude of WOK

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“Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 706). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Taln

Is Taln really Taln?  The only odd thing about the identification of Taln, is BWS’ caginess referring to the him as, “the person calling himself Taln.” 

Contra this, we have the WOB confirming we have seen Taln (and others):

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

The amount of Heralds that we have seen so far. Two? I had thought Wit was one.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Wit is not one, but you've seen Ash, you've seen Taln, you've seen Jezrien and Kalak in the prelude, you've seen Nale. Yeah, he was chasing Lift, among other things. You've heard of several others, but the others are going to start getting more and more obscure from there. I don't think there's any others.

Furthermore, Taln is identified by Ash, Mraize, and the Stormfather (below):

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Dalinar leaped to his feet. “It’s him!” he shouted. “The madman. He really is a Herald!”

HE FINALLY BROKE, the Stormfather said. HE HAS JOINED THE NINE, WHO STILL LIVE.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 408). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So yes, I think Taln is Taln.

Ishar

Ishar has been identified as Tezim by the Stormfather.  He is also gives this psychological analysis of Tezim:

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He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man…He is insane. Do not look for meaning in his actions.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 638). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

This is actually the only identification of Ishar = Tezim.  Two other characters refer to Ishar without the explicit Tezim id.

Ash, upon seeing Taln:

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Talenel’Elin had broken like the rest of them. Ishar, she thought. Ishar will know what to do.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1210). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Nale to Szeth:

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We each cope somehow, but only Ishar survived with his mind intact

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1197). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So is Tezim really Ishar, since the fellow Heralds would disagree with the Stormfather’s analysis?

Luckily we have an on-point WOB to settle this:

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CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

Battar

According to Tarangvian:

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“There’s a woman at Kharbranth,” he said. “She goes by the name Dova, but we think she is Battah’Elin. A Herald. She told us the Desolation was approaching.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1205). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Can we trust him? Not completely as this conflicts with what Tarangvian’s POV gives for both the motivation to seek out the Nightwatcher which in turn led to the Diagram:

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Just as the Diagram instructed, [Taravangian] had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive. That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 920). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Dova does not show up until after the diagram:

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“Tell Dova to continue the work,” he said. He had not anticipated that their covenant would attract the loyalty of an ardent, of all things. The Diagram, and its members, knew no boundaries. Dova had discovered their work on her own, and they’d needed to either induct her or assassinate her.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 906). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So is Dova really Battah?  My guess is yes and Tarangvian misrepresenting his source of information allows him to avoid discussing the Diagram.  That said, unless there are some WOBs that I don't know about, Tarangvian is at least partially an unreliable narrator.

Kelek

Here I have some questions.  As mentioned above  (and by process of elimination), Kelek is thought to be Nale’s companion the night of Gavilar’s assassination.

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“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”

“Shut up.”

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—” The two passed through the intersection ahead of Jasnah. They were ambassadors from the West, including the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it a scar? The shorter of the two men— he could have been Alethi— cut off when he noticed Jasnah.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 26). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Here, the "creature" seems to be Szeth and the blade seems to be Jezrien’s honorblade.  The only nagging problem I have with this is the phrase “my lord.”  Granted Jezrien is the Herald of Kings but since Kelek is speaking to fellow Herald Nale, why not say “our lord.”  I may be reading too much into it.

The one alternative theory I have heard bandied about is that Kaladin encountered Kelek on a bridge run:

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Kaladin walked up to him. He had dark brown skin and brown eyes, his thick black hair pulled back into a long, braided tail. Painspren crawled around him. He looked up as Kaladin and the members of Bridge Four loomed over him…

“Hold this with your hands,” Kaladin instructed. “And don’t walk on it. I’ll check on you before we march back to camp.” “How …” the man said. He didn’t have even a hint of an accent. Kaladin had expected him to be Azish because of the dark skin. “How will I get back if I can’t walk on the leg?”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 745-6). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Based on the physical descriptions, these are not the same people.  So which is Kelek?  If I had to guess, would go with the first. 

All I got.

As maxal says I think/hope Rlain since the book will feature the Listeners.  Also, will Thude make an appearance? Eshonai claimed he would die but I am not sure I believe it.  Dalinar promised Rlain he would help any survivors.

I also hope to see more of Rysn, as I want to see what her larkin can do.

In terms of a new "where," I am calling on the island of Akak.  Wild hunch, but I want to get this idea out.  It's been mentioned in both WOK and OB. According to the map, it is part of Alethkar, yet since Dalinar conquered it from the Reshi, I don't think it belongs to either of the two closest princedoms (Sadeas and Aladar).  It's an island that could serve as a place for refugees.  Dalinar has already inferred that windrunners could do damage on an approaching fleet, making it more defensible.  My prediction is that Akak becomes the center northern Alethkar.