HoidsRock

Wow, you have all got me thinking and if I could ask BWS one question right now it would be: "Can you use breath to awaken a deadeyes and would it recapture its some of it original spren personality?" (sprenality?) In book, we know that Adolin feels both loyalty to Maya and awful about her fate. The Stormfather has said he does know any way a deadeye can be awakened." Real world, BWS has simply it would be extremely difficult. So maybe Zahel worked with Adolin and his sword is an awakened Maya?

What a great post. I was planning on doing one titled “windrunner roll call” but figure I will add it here so that it is all in one place. Surviving members of the original Bridge 4 would be at least 28 people not including Kaladin. My math is as follows: 34 not including Kaladin went to the battle of the Tower. Shen/Rlain were left at the warcamp, along with the wounded Kaladin wanted to go back for (where I get the at least from). 3 were lost at the battle of the Tower. 2 were lost at the battle of Narak, Eth dies in the attack on Urithiru. Since it reads “almost all” versus “all,” who is missing? I will assume Rlain (who I am hoping has his own story arc in ROW), and Dabbid. As to Rock, I have omitted him here as I plan on writing a separate post about him. Teft, Lopen, and Drehy have all reached the 3rd ideal. Teft at the end of OB, Lopen and Drehy have shard spears: Sigzil clearly has a spren but I could use some help interpreting this line: Who is clutching the Shardspear? I read it as Sigzil. But when he drops his spear in recognition of losing the fight, there is no further comment about the spear vanishing. Sigzil: a bonded knight that I am guessing has reached the third ideal. Skar: We see that he has a spear as Kaladin has to dodge it in his first fight with Leshwi, but it is not identified either as a normal spear or Shardspear. Nor is a spren identified. However, I am assuming he is included in the “most” of bridge 4. Leyton: Only mentioned as flying by, chasing a heavenly one. Kara: Distinctly mentioned as someone who should be at the 3rd ideal but does not have a spren. Lyn: No mention of a spren but if she has one, she is not at the 3rd ideal. Lyn “carried a functional—but ordinary—lance under her arm.” Did I miss anyone?

Interesting points about Mraize. We do agree that he is reliable in regards to his opinion about Ialai. I was taking my lead from Pattern in response to Mraize's letter to Shallan: Of course, Pattern has a broad definition of "lie."

I've argued in the past that I think he was, at he was in WOR. Certainly, the one POV we get from him seems to imply that he believed in the cause. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a narcissist with delusions of grandeur and I agree that Gavilar could easily manipulate him. Now "true believer" needs defining of course. I'm using in the most non-cynical sense that when Amaram says it, he believes it in that very moment even if he stops believing it later on (i.e. not I am talking about sincerity of belief and not depth of belief). The only thing Amaram believes with any depth is that Amaram is great!

It definitely would explain the tension between Restares and Gavilar, particularly if the former is the truest of true believers. But then it makes Gavilar an even lower form of crem for forcing Jasnah to marry Amaram. (not saying Gavilar wouldn't do it; the side of him we see in this prologue is someone who clearly feels justified in whatever actions they need to take).

I hope so. As I mentioned in another post, I find it so interesting that Gavilar lists him as suspect #2 in his assassination. Did they disagree over direction/control of SoH? Or (my pet theory) does something change Gavilar's mind about SoH between seeing Jasnah and his death so that his final appeal is to his "mediocre" brother (ROW prologue) as opposed to Amaram or another SoH. Also at end of WOR, we get Amaram POV and he does not seem to recognize any daylight between the two. I think he will turn out to be some high ranking ardent. I bet it is a marriage of convenience as the SoH want to undermine Dalinar and she wants revenge. I don't think Mraize is necessarily a reliable narrator but I think he is correct that Ialai is too unstable for any cause except her own. My guess is they are still independent. I have no idea how big an organization they are, but Odium trying to corrupt the entire religious organization...well it seems like there would have been some resistance and somebody in the organization would have said something. The battle of Thaylen Fields needed the surprise of Amaram's betrayal. I think Odium corrupted Amaram with a long, slow burn, believing that that, along with Dalinar becoming his champion, would be all he needed. Well, they were more focused on the Heralds than the Radiants and the latter are led by a heretic who thinks the Almighty is dead. Maybe they adopted a new theory: The Almighty is testing their faithfulness with one last additional test and they need to remove Dalinar to truly bring back the Heralds! They would not be the first group to modify their revelation on the fly. I bet they are and I hope they're not! Bad news!

Thank you! Complete and utter brain freeze! I meant Restares the entire time! I will edit.

Actually, I think there is still an important plotline out there about the Sons of Honor--namely, Restares. In the flashbacks, Gavilar seems to have at the very least a "passing grade" opinion of his fellow Son of Honor, Amaram and a low opinion of Dalinar. Yet, while dying, his second guess, is that Restares has enlisted Szeth. Why? Did he and Restares fight over control of the SoH? Was Gavilar not really a member but used them for his own ends? But also, in those dying moments, he asks Szeth to leave a message to Dalinar and not to Amaram. Yeah, I know Dalinar is his brother but Dalinar apparently could not be trusted to be brought in on his plans. Why didn't he reach out to Amaram? My working theory is that something changed in the time period when Jasnah sees Gavilar and Szeth fights him that makes him no longer trust the SoH. Gavilar's POV in Book 5 will reveal it.

I think you are right. And the Fused probably left not only to get reinforcements but may also have used up the voidlight he brought to Hearthstone.

Somehow, seeing that Kaladin has regularly been visiting Hearthstone surprised me. I don't why but it did. I think Kmakl's speech is a foreshadowing for Lirin. I.e. just as navies will in the future be less necessary so surgeons are less necessary in the world of edgedancers. How Lirin deals with this and how it effects his relationship with Kaladin remains to be seen.

Count me as perplexed as Kaladin. I understand that windspren are the lesser spren to windrunners but how they help Syl know Kaladin’s parents or how these non-sapient windspren can pass on memories is beyond me. For that matter, Syl says “the winds” and it is an assumption that “the winds” equal “windspren” But my confusion did not stop me having a moment of sheer joy in the chapter 7 reading. The fabrial takes Kaladin’s powers though he can still feel the stormlight inside. The listeners began to taunt him as having nothing beyond his stormlight driven powers to protect him. Mid-taunt, Kaladin strikes and: Is that just the wind being pulled into a burning building or is the wind actively aiding Kaladin? I searched the other three novels for "Kaladin" and the "wind" and as you might guess there is a lot—way too many to discuss here. But two passages struck out to me. One is from the first scene where Kaladin appears, where he defends Cenn: A second passage is from WOR and is the opposite, after Kaladin has failed (for the time being) to be a KR and broken the Nahel bond. He goes to the training ground and performs a kata: In this same passage, Kaladin ponders if his skill comes from the Nahel bond alone. The answer is no as he had it before he met Syl (and Teft at the end of WOK notes that Radiance does not give skill). But clearly Kaladin is at his best with the winds around him. Why? Do the winds convey power to Kaladin, apart from the bond? Are the winds searching for potential windrunners and conveying small bits of power as part of an audition? I have no answers here. But I will give my answer to my own question above: The winds are actively aiding him when the Nahel bond is not.

That is my theory. Kaladin has him surrender the original blade Adolin gifted and Moash holds on to the honor blade. I wonder if that explains the eye color--the green eyes caused by the eye colors of the swords mixing (sapphire and light tan).

Okay, I love this idea. Does he have some sort of a gemheart or just a general symbiotic relationship? (And do we know the same answer about the Ryshadium?)

Totally! Where is THUDE???!!!

Yes, kind of what I was thinking. Just the threads here and there. May and may not turn out to be something.

I have been rereading WOR to distract myself from, well, out there. In doing so, I am once again struck by BWS' continuity and his ability to answer some questions and let others linger. Here is one of each. "I was off duty, sir," Teft said. "Went to see what I could find in the market. Do I need to report every little thing I do?" "You went to the market to the market," Kaladin said, "in a highstorm?" "Time may have gotten away from me for a breath or two..." Teft said, looking away. Chapter 41 WOR This question of where was Teft off to was answered was in OB. Pretty clearly he was off abusing firemoss. One question not answered in OB--a question I did not even notice until I reread WOR is that of Rock's great strength. Sure he is big but he seems to have a strength that surprises even Kaladin. While in the chasms sparring with Rock, Lopen and Sigzil, he notices that Rock is swinging a log at his head: An entire log. How had Rock lifted the that thing? Chapter 12 WOR This question is not answered in OB. Rather, it was built upon when Rock kills Amaram with the shardbow: Kaladin glanced toward Rock, who stood over Amaram’s body, looking down, the enormous bow held limply in one hand. How had he drawn it? Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn’t vastly improve strength. Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1189). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. So when will BWS answer it? The Rock short story? ROW? Any theories out there? What other questions were answered? Left pending for a later book?

To my knowledge, we have no direct evidence of their fate. But I agree with you that they will show up again. Another hint is that Dalinar promises Rlain that if any normal Parshendi survive, he will protect them. After Rlain's POV in OB, we don't see him on-screen again. I have often thought he has gone to search for any missing Parshendi.

I have been rereading the Stormlight books (including Edgedancer) but this time following a theme or character (e.g. I read in succession the Lift Interlude from WOR, Edgedancer, and all the scenes that have Lift in OB). When reading the three Prologues, I began to write up my thoughts about what we know regarding Restares and the Sons of Honor and why Gavilar listed him as a suspect. I still plan to do that but when reading previous postings regarding Amaram’s actions in OB, there seem to be a lot of questions about Amaram’s changing of allegiances at the end of the book: Would someone so seemingly devout switch to team Odium so quickly? Sure, Odium may have shown him the truth about the Singers and the Heralds, but why didn’t it make him catatonic? Walk away like others did? Why would he even believe Odium anyway? The devout can handle threats to their faith. They may disbelieve the source or they may accommodate the message as Amaram did when Dalinar told him the Almighty was dead (WoR ch 67): Does Amaram shift of allegiances mark a larger shift of the Sons of Honor? Has Odium likewise convinced them that the rights of the Singers, the abandonment of the Heralds and that Honor is dead/Cultivation is a pagan myth, means Odium is the only true object of worship? I’ll deal with the third point first, which is to say that I doubt the Sons of Honor have switched to Odium. First, I think people strongly committed to Vorin faith would be able to survive the truths which Odium presented (e.g. Kadash at the end of OB was rereading the ancient theologians to justify modern vorinism). Second, according to the letter Mraize sends to Shallan, the Sons of Honor thought the desolations would restore Knights Radiant as well the voidbringers (OB ch 40). Even if the Heralds were mad, the Sons of Honor could count a success at restoring the KR. Of course, Mraize may be an unreliable narrator but it seems a strange lie to add. Certainly, Amaram shows no hesitancy on-screen with the role as leader of the restored Knights Radiant. But what Amaram himself? In his shift in allegiance consistent and believable? Consistent, no? Believable, yes? Or, (since I run the risk of being inconsistent myself), Amaram’s actions do not make sense to me as a high-ranking official of secret society dedicated to the Vorin church. They make perfect sense to me as self-absorbed, conceited yet highly insecure attention seeker, who desperately seeks approval from everyone but especially those he sees as worthy (Gavilar, Dalinar, Jasnah) and when he does not receive it, he vacillates between needing the approval even more and a nursing a toxic resentment. Amaram is consistently a narcissist. The touches that Sanderson gives Amaram paint the picture: He is magnanimous to darkeyes…but calls them darkborn (the only one in the series to do so). He wants an apology from Kaladin for the accusation of murdering his men but only because it is in the best interest of Kaladin. He laments the unfair burden placed on the Sons of Honor to cause the desolation. And of course, he had no choice but to take shardblade and kill Kaladin’s men. Other observations: At the end of WOR we get Amaram’s only POV. In it, he laments his act of mercy for sparing Kaladin. Why? Because it cost him his friendship with Dalinar. In OB ch 53, we get a scene with Jasnah and Amaram from her POV. He goes from wooing her, to mentioning his mother, to reaching for his shardblade. Weird. She clearly sees him in a way he has never been able to see himself. Jasnah’s opinion: Throughout OB, Amaram desperately wants Dalinar to see it his way, to understand that they are the same. When Dalinar refuses, the anger (and the feelings of rejection) reaches a boiling point. So Dalinar, and those who follow him, reject him while his armies (in their hatred of House Kholin) and Odium elevate him. So, yes, I can believe he switched sides. Three final points: If Mraize is being honest and accurate that Gavilar brought Amaram into the Sons of Honor, I don’t believe Amaram would need to be very sold on the ideals of the organization. The very fact that most powerful man on Roshar, Amaram’s ideal man, invited him to join a secret society would have been impossible to resist. But after Gavilar was gone, the effect could have begun to wear off. Especially after the rejection from his brother. Some narcissists do feel guilt, particularly when they feel they have disappointed some ghost in their past (Gavilar? Mommy?) So Kaladin’s pushback on his guilt could have hit a button in Amaram’s mind he was trying to ignore. I reread the fight scene between Kaladin and Amaram ignoring everything except their dialogue. Amaram is clearly having a psychotic breakdown—not surprising since he has fused with an unmade. What comes out of his mouth is nothing but narcissistic nonsense that cannot be connected by even the most twisted logic.

First of all, I think this is a very interesting discussion. Second, I am in the Adolin thumbs-up camp--pretty much everywhere. (Maya fully alive, check!). Third, I think there is an interesting plot line with Adolin that BWS develops in Wheel of Time but sort of runs out of space. Now I do know that the 17th shard explicitly avoids the involvement of the Wheel of Time so I don't know if there is a special way to block spoilers or if merely mentioning WOT is taboo. Moderators, please jump in if I have crossed a line. Spoiler for WOT, Towers of Midnight: Adolin occupies a unique place in-world. He begins the series in the role of the dashing, foppish prince. Third in succession to the most powerful kingship in Roshar, heir to the most powerful princedom. He moves to anger and resentment towards the lowly darkeyes promoted to captain while not understanding his place. By the end of OB, he is actually feeling inferior to Kaladin! He has gone from the top of the Rosharan social pyramid to wondering where he fits. Quite often in long series, I find that authors reflect turmoil with body count--you thought things were crazy before, just look at how many people I killed in this scene! I feel through the character of Adolin, BWS tries to partially reflect in-world in a sympathetic character's disorientation. One final note. I enjoy, and hope to seem more of, Adolin's relationship with Kaladin. Kaladin had one true friend who didn't allow himself to be awed by the Stormblessed--Moash (it didn't work out too well). Adolin has a close relationship with another lighteyes, Jakamov (it didn't work out too well). The way these two characters struggle with one another and yet grudgingly like each other is again something I want to see more of.

I too think @RShara has got this right and agree that the hatred of the robbers in Kharbranth is significant. It certainly struck Shallan that way:

Taranvangian boon was capacity and compassion. At least in his own thinking, his curse is that they never occur at the same time:

The fact that Jasnah calls him Wit and not Hoid has bugged me for a while. Wit seems to be a title entirely from his role in Elkohar's court (although we know from the Second Letter that apparently Hoid thinks it's appropriate). I don't believe Jasnah was ever with the Alethi armies on the Shattered Plains and based on this statement from Adolin makes, it seems that he is new to the position. On the other hand, we have this statement from Jasnah to Shallan while in Kharbranth: So Jasnah knows of Wit in his role in court. How? If Jasnah had called him Hoid, I would have no problem believing their paths had crossed. Maybe their paths crossed before Wit's initial journey to the Shattered Plains? He told he planned to become Wit and she found out by spanreed he was successful. Alternately, given his coming and going, he met Jasnah after becoming Wit and yet still was able to prove his bona fides to her as the King's Wit. But mostly I am stymied.

Thanks, and all kidding aside, I appreciate you putting the topic up. BWS has made clear that the Heralds will continue to move beyond cameos in future (the most obvious being Ash and Taln getting their own books), so keeping scorecards of what we know so far, helps me tremendously.

Wow @AC12, two days ago I started writing a long post about the Heralds but have been caught up with other things and so have not checked the board. When I got here, I saw this. In other words you scooped me . So I will edit mine and just put in a few comments of the Heralds I have the most interest or questions about. Jezrien Having encountered Abu's page time in OB, I more appreciate Nale's snide comment in the Lift Interlude of WOK Taln Is Taln really Taln? The only odd thing about the identification of Taln, is BWS’ caginess referring to the him as, “the person calling himself Taln.” Contra this, we have the WOB confirming we have seen Taln (and others): Furthermore, Taln is identified by Ash, Mraize, and the Stormfather (below): So yes, I think Taln is Taln. Ishar Ishar has been identified as Tezim by the Stormfather. He is also gives this psychological analysis of Tezim: This is actually the only identification of Ishar = Tezim. Two other characters refer to Ishar without the explicit Tezim id. Ash, upon seeing Taln: Nale to Szeth: So is Tezim really Ishar, since the fellow Heralds would disagree with the Stormfather’s analysis? Luckily we have an on-point WOB to settle this: Battar According to Tarangvian: Can we trust him? Not completely as this conflicts with what Tarangvian’s POV gives for both the motivation to seek out the Nightwatcher which in turn led to the Diagram: Dova does not show up until after the diagram: So is Dova really Battah? My guess is yes and Tarangvian misrepresenting his source of information allows him to avoid discussing the Diagram. That said, unless there are some WOBs that I don't know about, Tarangvian is at least partially an unreliable narrator. Kelek Here I have some questions. As mentioned above (and by process of elimination), Kelek is thought to be Nale’s companion the night of Gavilar’s assassination. Here, the "creature" seems to be Szeth and the blade seems to be Jezrien’s honorblade. The only nagging problem I have with this is the phrase “my lord.” Granted Jezrien is the Herald of Kings but since Kelek is speaking to fellow Herald Nale, why not say “our lord.” I may be reading too much into it. The one alternative theory I have heard bandied about is that Kaladin encountered Kelek on a bridge run: Based on the physical descriptions, these are not the same people. So which is Kelek? If I had to guess, would go with the first. All I got.

As maxal says I think/hope Rlain since the book will feature the Listeners. Also, will Thude make an appearance? Eshonai claimed he would die but I am not sure I believe it. Dalinar promised Rlain he would help any survivors. I also hope to see more of Rysn, as I want to see what her larkin can do. In terms of a new "where," I am calling on the island of Akak. Wild hunch, but I want to get this idea out. It's been mentioned in both WOK and OB. According to the map, it is part of Alethkar, yet since Dalinar conquered it from the Reshi, I don't think it belongs to either of the two closest princedoms (Sadeas and Aladar). It's an island that could serve as a place for refugees. Dalinar has already inferred that windrunners could do damage on an approaching fleet, making it more defensible. My prediction is that Akak becomes the center northern Alethkar.