Kasimir

I'll definitely agree with you, Serendipity, that the Skybreaker is probably not going to end up a mindless automaton in following the laws, but I think they might end up having to let laws guide their action a lot more than you seem to allow for. My worry is that 'Justice' is basically a vague concept, and it's often defined with regard to jurisprudence. I can understand why you'd point out that some laws would not embody the ideal of Justice. Even in Roshar, there are clearly some laws which are probably bad laws--unjust laws--and I agree it seems weird that the Skybreaker would end up having to enforce those. My problem is, precisely because Justice is such a vague concept, it seems to be one of those things that many individual Skybreakers would disagree on. That is not by itself a bad thing, except that they seem to be far more structured than the Windrunners, and so I'm not sure how far the order can defer to the judgement of individual Skybreakers wrt what is a good law. (Basically: we need a conception of Justice and the law inflexible enough to consider what Adolin did to be wrong [i don't necessarily want to say morally wrong] by their oaths.) Here's how I think we can save the concept of Justice as the guiding force: I'll agree that I'm probably overhasty in suggesting they would collapse into the Windrunners, particularly if their highspren is binding them to a code that roughly sketches out what Justice is supposed to look like. This would remove the element of subjective 'this is what I feel is right/just' that would probably turn this into a case of Skybreakers and Windrunners being both Lawful Good, with the Windrunners focusing on the 'Good' aspect and the Skybreakers focusing on the 'Lawful' aspect. However, I want to suggest an alternative/add to this picture. So far, we've been reading the Skybreakers as, "I should do what promotes the law/enforce the law." And that doesn't seem to be what they're really doing. Nalan doesn't go around arresting people for walking on stone, and presumably never did. I'm suggesting that at least for the Skybreakers, maybe it's more appropriate for us to read their Second Ideal as a restraining precept for action. So, "I will put the law above all else" suggests that for a Skybreaker, no matter how infuriating and dangerous Sadeas is, even if he was killing bridgemen before their eyes, their job isn't to summon their Shardblade and cut him down on the spot. They have flexibility here, they can decide : 1) by Alethi law, this is legal, and walk away, or 2) they can use Alethi law as a weapon to bring him down. [Probably not very successfully.] I only note this because I think it adds the nuance to the picture of the Skybreakers we want, even if not completely. They can't break laws openly (perhaps; I'm open to being convinced w.r.t. the discussion of Justice as an overriding law) and they can still use the law as a prescriptive guide as to what to do about morally problematic actions. Note: I'm not entirely sure how the debate between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners over dividing the innocent from the guilty would fit in here.

Serendipity: Please do! Dualwielding would make things really awesome

I think it's a more reasonable assumption that parts of these theories are dated, simply because they were posted in Dec 2013, and therefore had no way of knowing--although some are in the ballpark--how Shardblades are created. And I do think there's a bit of wriggle-room there, possibly depending on the spren. If Syl could become a Shardspear, she could probably become a double-bladed spear. Perhaps a spren could then become two small (not huge--WoB hints that there's a size limit) blades that are linked by some small filament or something. But I'm not sure a single spren can become two separate weapons. The point about the Cognitive identity all the more holds, I believe. It may even be strengthened by the fact spren-Syl doesn't exist simultaneously with the Shardspear--it's either Shardspear or her form as a spren.

My worry about a Skybreaker who gets to pick a set of 'greater' moral laws and enforces those above anything else is that this seems to collapse the distinction between the Skybreakers and the Windrunners. Consider: "I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right." under this interpretation becomes something a Skybreaker could possibly end up doing. I will grant their order has no focus on protection, but enforcement (WoB says they're rather like the MPs of the KRs) but if the 'law' gets defined in terms of 'rightness', and that Skybreakers ends up upholding 'rightness', that seems to make him/her slide an awful lot too close to what the Windrunners are actually doing, with the same stipulation of setting aside personal feelings/emotion in the face of what is right/demanded by the moral law.

I suspect they have to be exposed to it to change, though. Eshonai argues with the other Parshendi leaders that more should take on Stormform. It seems as though they have to be prepared in some way (perhaps the way Eshonai was, with the stone containing the trapped spren) or exposed to the Highstorm to manage it. But now that the Stormform-summoned storm is circling the world, I suppose there's an open question as to whether the rules have changed and transformation can take place even under cover. (Not much of a theory but: since it involves a spren, whether it's a voidbringerspren(?)or even the regular spren the Parshendi use in transitioning from one form to another--perhaps it has to be powered by Stormlight, which is why they have to go out into the Highstorm. Like spheres, it's just no use if they're under shelter. If a hugely Invested storm and major source of Stormlight's the trigger for it, then it would make sense that sheltered Parshendi wouldn't be affected by it.)

Sphinx: Mind giving me a name or two to look up? I haven't seen that and now I'm interested

To add to what RShara said: in most of the stories, Merlin ends up playing a role as Arthur's counsellor, and there's a vestige of mentorship to that role, rather than as peers or as servant. I suspect you might be referring to a possible parallel with BBC Merlin, rather than the classic Arthurian mythos.

When, on the day Brandon Sanderson answers one of your questions, you rabidly post all over Facebook and Twitter that you've gotten to speak to BRANDON SANDERSON, GUYS! and rage on when the first reaction is, "Sanderson who?" - Context: Never had Sanderson in my area for a signing and so on, so I did go pretty storming excited when I had a simple question answered.

unlike the tree

When, emerging from an all-nighter, with lots of coffee, you say, aloud, "This...is how...pewter dragging...must feel like."

Echoing the preference for coloured Kaladin. Got to add though: I'm glad he didn't use Jesus Kaladin. Those just look...pretty ridiculously funny, the way he's doing some fancy pose. Although maybe it's because I keep thinking "Jesus Kaladin!" the moment I see it.

With regard to whether Elhokar could or couldn't have drained the Stormlight from his own armour: It's hard to drain it from someone else's Shardplate unless the gems are cracked, and I grant that the WoB doesn't specify, but does it work that way for your own Shardplate? There are many good theories about how the Shardplate functioned for KRs so I won't go into them, but I'm thinking about how the helm drew Stormlight from Kaladin when he was fighting alongside Adolin in the duel. If the helm he was using could draw from Kaladin's reserves, is the opposite possible? I don't think this is likely, because if it were, Kaladin would've been able to draw from the helm in the duel, but perhaps he couldn't because the helm had already basically just leaked almost all his Stormlight away so there wasn't anything left for him to draw on. I'm also reluctant to consider that whether you're the wearer of the Shardplate makes a difference or doesn't, though. On one hand, the Shardplate clearly exhibits some sort of connection to the person wearing it. I don't think cracked Shardplates drain off Kaladin if he's not wearing them, or he'd have been in serious trouble many times over. In addition, we know Shardplate moulds itself to its wearer, to some extent. At the same time, it's interchangeable: you don't bond it the way you do a Shardblade. I just thought I'd throw it out there anyway. (If it is possible, then the view that Elhokar drained his own Plate and is probably bonding to a spren--the ones he sees in mirrors?--might work out.)

1. Would the way Szeth and Kaladin use Stormlight to heal count? Upthread, EMTrevor makes what I think is a good point: we never see Szeth directing Stormlight actively towards his injuries. Not in the way Kaladin did when he tried to heal his hand. 2. Also on the point of Stormlight healing: in WoK, Szeth comments, with regard to the injuries he'd taken from fighting Gavilar, that "Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered." (p. 54; but my copy is weird.) As far as I recall, Kaladin seems to heal from injuries a lot faster. He did spend about two weeks recovering from being hung in the highstorm, but he actually survived, and after that, didn't get Stormlight until Teft brought some spheres. By WoR, when he fights alongside Adolin, he heals from broken legs presumably in the span of minutes. And let's not forget the end of WoR where he heals almost instantly from very bad injuries upon saying the Second Ideal. These, I'm just throwing them out there: In WoK, Szeth notes that his Lashings "wouldn't work directly on someone in Shardplate" and there's the line about how he can't use Shardplate because his Lashings interfere with the gems in Shardplate. I don't think we've yet seen Kaladin attempt to Lash anyone in Shardplate but there's some indication Kaladin can use Shardplate, though I'm not sure if that's the way Szeth meant it. I'm referring to the bit where Kaladin uses a helmet as a glove, but finds out that because it was leaking, it ended up stealing his Stormlight to repair itself. Also, Kaladin seems to have a connection to the winds we don't see with Szeth. He refers to the winds and the sky as his, and when he's fighting with Szeth, we get this interesting bit that mirrors something we see in the Adolin-plus-four-others duel: Compare to:

I like this theory, and I actually think it answers one of the problems that the 'Nalan went crazy' theories don't: how does killing Surgebinders stop the coming Desolation? So far, we know from WoB that the Heralds can only spend a definite amount of time on Roshar, after which they must return to Damnation or risk starting another Desolation. That's why Nalan and his peers left Taln there: they were trying to find a way out of that. Problem is: although Taln held out for much longer than they did collectively, surely Nalan knows that Taln must eventually break, however long he endures. When he returns, the Desolation will come anyway. It's one reason to think we don't know enough about what's going on, yes. But it's also a reason to think that Nalan is aware of what those things we don't know are. So yes, I like the theory that he wants to stop the Desolations in his own way, perhaps with his own order. Maybe there's something he can do with Skybreakers to stop them from happening or to solve the Desolation when it happens.The question I do have for this theory though, is as follows: what do you make of Nalan's relationship with his own order? We know from one of the epigraphs that Nalan was the last Herald to become the patron of a KR order. Given that history, why would Nalan want to recreate his Skybreakers?

Maybe I should clarify: as I'd mentioned earlier, I'm looking at this from the KR side. I'm not referring to Kaladin's personal attitudes towards Adolin, nor Dalinar's, nor Shallan's, nor Renarin's. My interest in this discussion is very simply this: as KRs, they have to swear oaths. These oaths bind them with more than just normative force--there are active consequences on their bond with their spren, their spren, and their position as a KR. My question: does knowing what Adolin did demand, in virtue of their oaths, some sort of action from Kaladin/Dalinar/Shallan/Renarin? My inclination is that any conflict, if it were to arise, would come from Kaladin's/Dalinar's oaths. Perhaps. Although I would be interested, since we seem to be always returning to how people would personally feel about what Adolin did, in how Renarin would see things.

Moogle's said pretty much what I first wanted to say when I saw the opening post of this thread. I find it a bit overhasty to condemn the normative code of the Skybreakers in such a way, and of course, there have been many good comments in this thread attempting to tease out the difference between legality and morality. I'm actually interested--although convinced--by those who've characterised the principles of the Windrunners as being reactive. I'd always characterised it as being a more proactive knight-errant sort of code: 'Go out there and protect', but I can see where this would turn out being pretty reactive in practise. As a further addition: at least for the Windrunners, there's more of a focus on intent than consequences, which you wouldn't see in the Skybreakers. Kaladin's letting Moash arrange an assassination on Elhokar comes out wrong under this system, while Kaladin fighting for the wrong reasons ("Who were you trying to protect?") also comes out pretty wrong. Whereas in the case of the Skybreakers, it's not about your intentions so much as what you do/have already done. Some of the KR orders don't seem to have as much of a party line though. Contrast this to the Lightweavers: there seems to be much more room for fluidity there. While they swear the first Ideal, they're not as bound as the others are to definite principles of conduct.

Fair enough; I think we're working with different notions of symmetry here, but I do see where you're coming from!

Figured Ah yes, you're right--I wasn't sure where to group Dalinar and Elhokar. I believe Kaladin was supposed to go with Shallan though--I seem to remember a WoB along the lines of Kaladin being 'Kalak' with the k removed for quasi-symmetry purposes, and the suffix '-din'?

Argent: Unfortunately, this is not my real name, although I do like it. Seems a bit off from the usual quasi-symmetry of Alethi names too LinkasZelda: Whoa, Japanese is hard. And that's pretty amazing--four languages is storming difficult. (Understatement.)

In terms of Adolin's relationships, I'd treat his with Shallan as the least likely to cause issues, at least on the spren side. With regard to Kaladin and Dalinar, their relationship with their spren (Syl and the Stormfather respectively) seem more strict in terms of what's permissible and what isn't. I'm actually divided on Dalinar--it seems as though it's not against the oaths Dalinar has so far sworn. (Given the First Ideal is the same for all KR orders, I'm assuming that it shouldn't be taken as flouting it.) I do wonder how things will go with Renarin though. On one hand, Renarin seems pretty perceptive on his own. Add to the fact Adolin's his older brother, and that he's a Truthwatcher, and it seems possible that Renarin would know. (Given we don't really have much information on the Truthwatchers, I don't think we can really guess if Glys would prompt Renarin to a particular course of action.)

Thanks! May I ask which languages?

I know FeatherWriter has said a lot of some things about it here, but I'm not sure if that closes the case for it.

My bad: I wasn't thinking in terms of if Shallan herself would be fine with it--I'm pretty convinced that it would take a bit of doing but the answer would be 'yes'. I was more curious if there's something in the relation between the Cryptics and lies that could give a Syl sort of result. "Adolin, my spren's starting to act really weird around you. We need to talk."

I'm not absolutely certain about how the Lightweavers would regard Adolin's actions. They certainly seem to be a lot more fluid with regard to what is permissible than oh, say, the Windrunners, for instance. I'm not saying this as a suggestion that Adolin might become a Lightweaver, but that it would be interesting if an aspect of how he's handled the situation (attempting to deceive/cover-up his murder of Sadeas) elicited some sort of response in Pattern. Could that end up affecting his relationship with Shallan?

I'm also having a hard time believing that the ostensible goals of the Skybreakers (the elimination of Surgebinders) is all there is to them. Although I suspect it ties to the assumption of how the Oathpact works--it just seems strange for Nalan to be just eliminating Surgebinders when he has to know that Taln has held out for extraordinarily long, but the moment Taln breaks, the Desolation comes back and Nalan's efforts seem to be wasted--at least when we don't have the bigger picture.