Kasimir

In all fairness, Jezrien is still very dodgy about how he says it. "A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.” We know Ishar suggested they just needed one person to keep the Oathpact, but in all fairness, we don't know if it was a group decision. Given this, we don't know if it was a collective decision, or someone simply managed to convince the others. Jezrien's words don't seem to implicate anyone, and he himself says he was "chosen" to wait for Kalak. It's plausible Nalan didn't actually make or approve of the decision--I just mean I'm not certain it's unanimous. And even if either way you look at it, Nalan did end up breaking his oath, that possibly explains why he now holds everyone else in such low moral regard. To a man who finds order and keeping your word no matter what to be the most beautiful thing--what does that say of him? And if he can't do it, how can he expect everyone else to do so? I see it as a breaking event that drives Nalan, basically. If we run with Ketek's 'Nalan is not crazy' theory, then one might suggest he is driven by the need to redeem himself. Because by his own code, he is already guilty. That's serious mental baggage there. As a semi-related aside: I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed it out this before, but for those familiar with Chinese folktales, Nalan is actually portrayed like the figure Justice Bao. Bao's a magistrate, portrayed as righteous and incorruptible. He's a hardliner on justice, "famous for his uncompromising stance against corruption among the government officials at the time. He upheld justice and refused to yield to higher powers." (Thanks, Wikipedia.) And most interestingly: he's often depicted as a dark-skinned man with a pale birthmark in the shape of a crescent on his forehead.

To be fair, this could be a point in favour of the 'Adolin doesn't become a KR' camp. With his father and brother as KRs, it may be the case that eventually, as they hash out a functioning structure, the KRs have to separate themselves from Alethi structures. On this view, the papers that Dalinar draws out to make Adolin the Highprince and to abdicate would be sort of prescient. He may have to eventually abdicate, and there's only one person left in the Kholins who is capable of being Highprince without also being a KR. Adolin. At this point in time, I don't think we have enough evidence to suggest that the Heralds were trying to cripple KR independence. We have some indication that some KR orders (notably the Skybreakers) seemed to have petitioned the Heralds to serve as their patrons, although Nalan was the last hold-out. I'm more inclined to go with Ketek here: the oaths were to give a form of structure. Yes, technically, it's less independence, but I think that without oaths, you just don't have a functioning order. There's nothing that holds them all together. (And isn't that what Honour is about? The forces that bind men together. Like oaths.) I like Ketek's idea that therefore the unifying aspect of the Bondsmiths is what makes the KRs work. If we see them as the politicians and the diplomats, the Skybreakers are the MPs or the stick. They make sure hold-outs stay in line. (P.S. I'm not sure if we can suspect from the need to stick KRs with oaths and structure them that there was something dangerous about unstructured, chaotic Surgebinding. Perhaps dangerous in the way Nalan has been referring to...) My reading of the visions is that the Stormfather had to develop some form of a fledging Nahel(?) bond with those to whom he sent the visions. It may be that among all the spren, the godspren can bond more people, but generally don't want to. Now that Dalinar has officially spoken the oaths and strengthened the bond, it may very well be that no one else will be getting visions. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it does seem as though there's not much overlap between the people we currently know of who've gotten the visions: Gavilar had them (?) and if they were the same visions, then they ended in 1167, on his assassination. A middle-aged potter had them and if they were the same, they ended in 1173, as he "reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years." I would tentatively put Dalinar's visions as coming in 1173, since they're still recent enough by the time WoK opens.

But there's an extra grate too, no? So the extra grate and the eleventh lamp are possibly related?

Fair enough. I think some details may need to be fleshed out, but given the information we do have, I can see it plausible. Nalan does have some controlling/'Ordnung muss sein' tendencies. I'll give it to you; I think I'm mostly convinced and I find this an interesting theory.

Oh Stormfather, I walked right into this one too. I suppose, but I don't think Lifeless would be physiologically capable of getting them on. I guess people with really out there power fantasies (or necrophilia) might enjoy it--and I wouldn't be surprised if this formed a darker edge of Idrian horror stories about Hallendran. But would there be an active, flourishing market? I doubt so....I need brain bleach.

My bad, thank you!

I was under the impression the storms were going to hit Shinovar from the east? :S

Because it applies but only at a shallow level of description--it is itself not descriptively adequate, as I've argued, and as many people upthread have been spending their time doing. Furthermore: Sure, you could read into this thread the impulse that 'lying is bad', but it isn't a point of discussion in this thread (trying to figure out what the Lightweavers are doing is), nor is it relevant. Our points would still hold, regardless of whether lying is or isn't morally acceptable. Our discussion could take place perfectly fine regardless of whether that is assumed or isn't. And I should clarify--I'm only coming down on the bringing of moral discussion into this thread because I don't want it to derail like the other ethics threads have a tendency to do. As I don't want to ironically cause what I was trying to avoid, after this post, I will no longer engage with attempts to bring ethics into this.

I don't see it implied anywhere in the thread title that liars are bad. All it says is straightforwardly that Lightweavers aren't liars. You might argue that it's only an issue because most people think lying is bad. But that issue has neither been one that has raised its head in this thread, nor is it pertinent. Whether Lightweavers are liars is only an issue because it's an inaccurate way of looking at what the Lightweavers are and what they do. It'd be as inaccurate as saying 'Gary Kasparov pushed some plastic game pieces around' or 'Dalinar/Alexander the Great was a general.'I like your suggestion of the relation between Honesty and Creativity but I think it has to be acknowledged it is a two-way relationship. They can create/reveal truth as well, through Creativity. At least with the Lightweavers around, truth doesn't seem to be an objective, given, Capital-T Truth. It can shift and sometimes, it's about changing that particular 'certain point of view'. Not to forget that instead of swearing further oaths, Lightweavers need to speak deeper truths about themselves.

Oh really (Bet Jezrien never saw that use for his Honorblade...) I'm more sympathetic to the 'Adolin becomes a Dustbringer' camp, but I do think it's the beginning of a lot more troubles for Adolin. It occurs to me that some people simply don't take to holding a deception well, and the weight of the secret he's keeping might be the event that breaks Adolin, even if his killing Sadeas doesn't. Adolin's the sort to say what he thinks, not for this kind of deception, and I suspect it'll be hard on him.

I think the issue at hand here isn't a worry about the ethics of lies, but how to square Shallan's lying with what Lightweavers do and the Divine Attributes (Creativity, Honesty) governing their order.

And it's implied by Jasnah that she doesn't have enough evidence for people to believe her, which is one reason why she's been playing things close to her chest.

When you start getting suspicious when you take a shower, because, spren.

GreyPilgrim: Take this with a pinch of salt, as this is my personal opinion, but no. Although I generally like some of the authors who contributed to the analogy, Sanderson's story ended up being the highlight of it all for me. And I think that while all Sanderson stories so far have been good, this one isn't outstanding enough to get an entire book for. It's clever, yes. But it just doesn't have the development or punch most of his non-anthology(?) stories--particularly the Cosmere ones--have.

I'd say you're not wrong to suggest that Kaladin's oaths carry the potential for conflict. Really, I suspect, that potential for conflict is why Pattern tells Shallan she will one day kill him, and that pessimism is echoed by the Stormfather telling Kaladin he will one day kill Syl (and later on, that he refuses to be bound in such a manner that will kill him.) My first response is that it seems strongly against what Honour stands for to require more than that a KR do their best to keep their oaths. I think it's frankly unrealistic to expect Kaladin's oaths to break the moment he fails to protect someone, because at the moment, we have a single Windrunner and the world's in a bad way. A lot of people are going to need protecting. He obviously gets some flexibility to choose what he wants to protect, but I'll agree he has to walk the fine line between choosing and turning his back on someone obviously in need of his protection. I've just set this up as a preliminary clarification. Your point is definitely stronger than that: even then, Kaladin's oaths could conflict. So, let me agree with you: yes. They could. And guess what? They have. We see two things at the end of WoR. While I'll agree Kaladin is in a rather ill-defined place at the moment, being both a KR [i'm not going to engage in the Bondsmith as leaders debate at the moment] and a captain under Dalinar in the chain of command, he clearly tells Dalinar he has to go and protect his parents. And Dalinar lets him go. To be honest, as a KR himself and as someone trying to follow the Way of Kings, I suspect Dalinar has the flexibility to understand what is demanded by Kaladin's oaths. So I do think they have conflict very nicely under control. (And in all fairness, I think the events at the end of WoR are a gamechanger, enough that he might be removed from bodyguard duty, because quite frankly, he's not very good at that, and he's probably better employed elsewhere.) And I agree with Ketek: quite frankly, the KRs needed compromise. Just think about the debate between the Windrunners and the Skybreakers and imagine that happening mid-Desolation. They'd never get anything done. Even if it isn't the standard role of the Bondsmith to lead all the other KR orders, I'm not surprised if that's what Dalinar ends up doing. In a Desolation, you need a way to coordinate all the different orders and the other kingdoms, and as far as I see, Kaladin's not going to be the one to do it. He's not as good at handling the big picture, and I think we've got enough reason to believe that Dalinar is flexible enough to allow him some space.

Seconding Grayv. I loved it, and when you realise what the ending implies--it does raise the question, though, if the world we see there is our world or something like the world in a game of Assassin's Creed or GTA.

Off the top of my head, I would read it exactly the way we read Kaladin using Stormlight to practise using his Gravitation surge in the chasms. Or the way he tried to use it against Adolin. Who was he protecting them? What was he trying to protect? I argue we can't seem to find anything in the first case, and if we look really hard, we might suggest that in the second case, it was his ego and his own sense of injury. At their very best/ideal, the Radiants have a purpose. But not every single action they take has to be directed towards that purpose. For me, Shallan at her very best inspires people to be better than they are, and in doing so, transforms them. Look at the effect she had on her brothers over the years. And that's the key to what the Lightweavers, as Radiants, do. [Of course, Shallan is just one Lightweaver, and this picture may change when we see more of them.]

Will the Honorblade even be useful though? Kaladin's had to take time and spend afternoons learning how to properly Surgebind and to use his Lashings to travel swiftly. It seems to me that giving the Honorblade to Rlain for the purposes of saving the surviving Parshmen isn't particularly useful in that regard. Unless the Honorblade also bestows an instinctive capacity to know how to Surgebind, then the time Rlain's going to need to take to learn how to breathe in the Stormlight, hold it, and is going to be precious time he needs. Or Kaladin could take the time off to instruct him, but he himself is in a rush. And I suspect that while Dalinar or Shallan or Renarin (?) could teach him to breathe Stormlight, he'll still have to learn how to use the Surges. And unlike Kaladin, he's confined to using the Honorblade outside of a storm, as the storms would probably unwillingly transform him. So he's also strictly restricted to the Stormlight they do have with them, and with the Honorblade, he uses them inefficiently. I don't deny the Honorblade is probably very useful, and that there's more to it we don't yet know of, but it seems to me that at least for the purposes of saving the remaining Parshmen, it's not going to be particularly useful. Although: is a Listener who is bonded to an Honorblade immune to the transforming effects of the storms? I suspect a KR spren might grant immunity, but an Honorblade?

I do agree with that. Furthermore, in support of what you've laid out, we have what Hoid tells Shallan in the Middlefest chapter: (p. 1174 in my Kindle copy but it is weird) But I think there's something else about the Lightweaver's that's beautiful: in seeing and bringing forth the "deeper truths' in the lie, they have the ability to make them real. It seems to be Illumination melded with Transformation at a deeper level: in her drawings, she illuminates these deeper truths, brings them to the surface, and transforms people in the process.

There have also been many philosophers who have argued that justice and fairness come apart and that a Rawlsian view of justice is not the correct one. My point being that people in this thread speak of justice as an obejctive motivating force, and it is clear it can't fulfill that role on Roshar because even in the 'real world', there is substantial philosophical disagreement on justice. I like Ren's quote though: This does seem to me to indicate that the Skybreakers might be fine with adhering to a personal code, though I'm also worried about that given that we haven't seemed to see substantial disagreement in the Skybreakers so far. (But given the highspren could be a norm-regulating force, I guess it's not too much of stretch.) I don't think adhering to the laws of the locality is sufficient for Nale--that's exactly what Szeth hasn't been doing. He's killed kings, and served criminals as Truthless, unless he is not (legally) responsible for these actions since he is Truthless, under which I suppose that would work for Nale.

Nicely done! I love the way you've handled the lighting here, and Stormlight. And Pattern!

He was taking a bath. Unfortunately for him, an intrepid spren was there. Sadeas freaked out, summoned his Shardblade and tried to get rid of Pattern. But Pattern's pretty good at surviving, and he took Sadeas into Shadesmar, sans Shardblade, and 'forgot' to put Sadeas back. Mmmmmm other Highprinces to covertly observe, you know. For plot reasons, Hoid walked into the bathroom a while later, took the Shardblade, and left it in a flowerpot, where the man calling himself Taln will later retrieve it.

I'm with Edgedancer on this, though I admit to being curious about the idea of Essence Marks. I'm not comfortable with the idea of a Shard having a subtle influence on who you are over time. That being said, if I was in a position to do so, and had to do so to save lives or something like that--if the stakes were high--I would take Honour, I think. I'm pretty much one of those players who likes Lawful Good, and...it seems to me that it's one of those Shards with an intent I can respect.

When your prof asks your class who writes/wrote the best fantasy, and in the midst of the people going, "Tolkien!", "George R. R. Martin!", "Robert Jordan!" etc, you say: "Brandon Sanderson."

For me, it was through WoT as well. I'd given up hope it would be finished when the news of Robert Jordan's death came, and then I heard they'd found someone called Brandon Sanderson to take over and he'd written a book called Mistborn. 'Ok,' I said, and Googled it. Turns out it was this book with this magical system involving eating metal. Meh. (Ever wanted to kick your past self before, nevermind the storming Blinovitch Limitation effect?) I was in a bookstore two years later, looking for an interesting book on the shelf. Picked up Mistborn, leafed through it, and decided, "Oh, Kelek's breath, I'll get it." It seemed all right. Read it, loved it--and incidentally, only made the connection between 'the guy who wrote Mistborn' and 'the guy who's continuing WoT' quite a while later.