Pathfinder

Elsecaller all day everyday. Matter transformation and (as far as I am concerned based on the info we have so far) teleportation. Then throw in regeneration, and power armor, plus whatever Jasnah did when she shoved the three guys into each other and it is all a combination of epicness.

Lol, no worries. Sounds good to me.

Sorry for the confusion. I will put my conjecture in list form below: 1. Bonded radiant of 5th oath dies from a thunderclast 2. Spren is no longer bonded to radiant. No oaths have been broken so spren is not "dead". Potentially spren hangs around a bit before fully losing sapience and returning to cognitive realm fully 3. Individuals recover the spren (like in Kholinar with Hoid) 4. Spren is given a choice. Return to cognitive realm and not bond anyone further. Bond some other potentially available radiant to be. Or be used to power a fabrial 5. Potentially the spren sad over losing their radiant and not wanting to bond another, chooses to power the fabrial in an effort to still aid in the war effort but honor their lost radiant. 6. Result is a fabrial powered by a radiant spren voluntarily, with a power level (read as the amount of essences that can be used) dependent on what oath level the radiant was prior to the radiant's decease. Fabrial is still just a fabrial. Only difference is the type of spren powering it. So the fabrial can be physically broken just like any other fabrial. The fabrial itself is not the spren's body. That at least is my rough purely conjecture theory. Hopefully that helps.

May I ask what Kelsier would have had to have said in order for you to consider it genocide?

Nobles were an ethnic group. Already replied about skaa guards. He viewed them as quislings. Do a google search on the term. It has a very interesting history. Btw thanks @Calderis for pulling up the info. Yay I remembered correctly! lol

True. The church could potentially fragment further into different sects as result.

Hmmm. Could have sworn that Kelsier said he wanted all nobles dead. He just also lumped anyone working for them in with them for supporting them. Kind of like how Norwegians viewed quislings during World War 2. I would have to check, but I am not sure if Kelsier did know about Breeze being a noble. I could have sworn Breeze muses to himself how they all assume he is a half breed pretending to be a full breed. Wasn't he concerned how Kelsier would react if he knew the truth? I would have to check to be sure but I do not have the time to right now unfortunately.

Interesting! I wish you luck with your theory! No problemo. Hopefully we will find out more in book 4! Ah, so a bit of a combination of both. Interesting! Hmmmmm, good thoughts! Book 4 can't come soon enough!

On Scadrial the lord ruler altered the skaa and nobility on a genetic level so they were very much two different ethnic groups. Over time there was intermingling but the definition of genocide is the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially of those of a particular ethnic group. Kelsier wanted all nobles dead regardless of their affiliation. He only changed his mind about Elend because of Vin. That sounds like a genocide to me.

Sazed believed in everyone having a right to choose whatever religion they wished to worship. In order to do that, they need to be fully informed. I believe the only thing he truly kept from the populace was hemalurgy. Otherwise he wrote how things actually happened as accurate and as free of bias as he could. The legends that grew from that were from the people themselves who read it. Sazed said himself he should not be worshiped. That the religion that grew from him was more about focusing on the practitioner rather than on any "deity".

And the ardents already worked with the "reviled heretic" in researching the gemstone archive. They, as well as stormwardens, and scholars all worked under Jasnah. Navani marveled at how effective Jasnah was at getting three disparate groups to work together so well. Yep, they excommunicated Dalinar, and it didn't change anything in the function of the alliance, nor change his rule of the Alethi. Kadash wanted Dalinar to allow the people who were uncertain to continue to worship as they wish. Which Jasnah has gone on record numerous times throughout the books as having no problem with. People were lining up just for a chance to try and become a radiant. The individuals that the Vorin church said were "traitors". When Kaladin went from village to village in Alethkar, the people greeted him as "lord radiant" and were falling over themselves to welcome him. Also keep in mind the Vorin church functioned as the ardents carrying out the worship for them. Their only hands on version of worship was "doing their job" because it would bring them closer to the Almighty. I could see there being a greater fracture in Jah Keved or Iri because the people are much more "involved" in their religion, but not in Alethkar. You are perfectly entitled to think it is going to be a large issue. Personally from what I have seen, I do not. I think Vorinism has to change to survive the end times. The heads are already panicking. Dalinar's excommunication I feel was more a last ditch act hoping to make a stand rather than something of actual consequence.

But it is incomprehensible power only based on comparison. The lighter is incomprehensible power to the caveman, but is a joke to an elsecaller that can turn something into flame. So too with a shard to an elsecaller. The returned were viewed as gods, but another group said they were not. Who is right? The other group claimed asture was a god in true. The people of Taldain for instance would disagree. Who is right? What makes one being with incomprehensible power a valid god while another is not? The bible claimed there was only one true god and all others are false. When Ireland was converted, the tuatha de denann were changed from gods to demons in the service of satan. Beings get called deities, gods, goddesses, and more interchangeably and cast aside just as easily. So what makes what the greek and romans call deities in their "ignorance" at their stage of being as the correct definition? Many roman gods were greek gods changed to fit the roman narrative. Other gods were incorporated from the local populace to allow them to continue to worship as they did, but under the roman rule. The romans figured a happy populace is one easier to rule. So for me, if the definition of who is a deity can change based on where you stand, then it is not a very accurate definition. I do not feel Jasnah is making up anything. If you have multiple religions, and there is nothing they can conclusively agree on, nor provide anything conclusive as to why they are the "right" ones, then why should they be followed? That logic stands no matter how far you zoom out. edit: to put it another way. We both can send information across the globe in seconds. We can travel amazing speeds. We can fly. We would not call each other gods. Someone below us would call us gods, while someone above us would call us ants. If we then attained the level of the individual above us, then that individual is not a god. It is an equal. Science and knowledge is the great equalizer. If Jasnah with the right know how can attain the same level of power as the Almighty, then the Almighty is not god.

So I will explain, and then include the scene below. If I were to travel back in time, and show cave people my lighter and that I can create fire, they would worship me as a fire god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? No. All it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge. If I were to bond an inkspren and become an elsecaller radiant and come to earth going around soulcasting things from one form to the other, people would worship me as a creation god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? I have powers they cannot possibly comprehend, but the answer is still no. Again all it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge. If I were to pick up a shard and move planets, I would be worshiped by the inhabitants of that planet as their supreme being god. Does this mean I am a deity worthy of worship? I have powers over their very existence and their livelihoods. I could end them all in a snap just by moving the planet closer to the sun. Still again the answer is no. Again all it means is I am exactly like them, just I have access to something that they at that time do not have access to nor understand. That is a state that can be changed through knowledge. All we know about the god beyond is it is a light that comforts Dalinar. Odium has been a light that has brought fear and pain to Dalinar. Other shards have taken varying forms to interact with people. We have no evidence that conclusively shows the god beyond is any different than any of the shards. Nor do we have any evidence that Adonalsium is any more deific more being the sum of his parts (the shards). So as far as Jasnah is concerned, all we have seen are beings with power. If through knowledge she can attain those same levels of power, then these beings are not anything special and not worthy of worship. Her words are shown below: Words of Radiance page 69 The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . . .” She trailed off. Shallan blushed, realizing she’d looked away and had begun tracing a glyphward on her blanket against the evil in Jasnah’s words. “That was a tangent,” Jasnah said. “I apologize.” “You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” “I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” “And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?” “I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.” “Then he would be real.” “I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent.” Jasnah stood. “You are relieved of other duties of study. For the next few days, you have only one focus for your scholarship.”

Copy pasting my response from another thread and then adding a bit more: She answers this when speaking to Shallan. She acknowledges the possibility that the Almighty is real. However that does not mean she views such a being as God with a capital G that should be worshiped, nor does it mean she believes there is any such entity to be referred to as God with a capital G. The Almighty can just as easily be attributed to being a spren (which considering how Roshar terms spren, would be applicable). She feels everything she has experienced and learned has only strengthened her convictions, not weakened them, but she apologizes to Shallan for the tangent. So in summation the shards, and even the god beyond would not be considered God with the capital G to Jasnah. She would be open to new information, but presently no information provided shows that the beings with power we have met (including the god beyond), are anything more than just individuals with failings like anyone else simply with more power.

So I am not asking this to attempt to disprove your theory. Genuinely asking to understand it further. If spren were created for the fabrials they powered, then in the soulcaster case, why is there a difference in number of essences that they could change? Would based on your theory, there be multiple spren bonded to it to be more powerful, like we see with the oathgate? So the ones that can do only one essence, had one spren, while the ones that can do three or more would have two, and the ones that can do even more would have four? Or do you posit a different function?

I am not sure we can determine that Kelsier would always choose to oppose the "overclass". Him doing what he did with the southerners is very much like what the lord ruler did. Allik was scared that Wax would randomly kill him because those with the metallic arts were to be worshiped and feared. That even a chance offense could result in your death. Kelsier installed the metalborn as the overclass in a culture where they were very rare if non-existent till Kelsier showed up. In that case he was the overclass. There is still much we do not know about the southerners, but I think those tidbits paint a picture of Kelsier not always being the champion of "the little guy". Add to it that there is a WoB where Brandon says Marsh is holding to what Kelsier represented to the Scadrial masses even if Kelsier himself isn't anymore. WoB below in spoiler

This is starting to sound like a digression from the original topic, but just as a side note, what occured with Renarin was not an exception to the rule. Please check out my thread "Jasnah more than meets the eye". I am still working on completing my analysis of Oathbringer. Hope to be done soon!

I respect that that is your belief system. Personally I disagree, but we all get through life in our own ways. I wish you luck with it and your endeavors.

To me that was a partial use. Ivory was the one that pulled her into the cognitive realm. I want to know if she has learned to transport like the oathgates. I feel she should be able to, but we have not seen her do so yet. So any additional information is always appreciated lol.

I think the Vorin church has far more to worry about in keeping followers than the Monarch worrying about keeping the Vorin church happy. The desolation is basically proof positive that the Vorin church is wrong. You have people by the score trying to "sign up" to become a radiant. A group up until that point seen as "evil" by the Vorin church. Now they are being seen as saviors by the people. The Vorin church is going to have to do a whole lot of back peddaling to keep up with the changing times to stay relevant. Now after saying all that, Jasnah has said on multiple occasions across all the books that she has no issue with people worshiping as they wish, so long as she can belief as she wishes and others are not prevented from believing as they wish. So the Vorin church would do well to be on her good side because she would be the main means for them to remain in existence.

She answers this when speaking to Shallan. She acknowledges the possibility that the Almighty is real. However that does not mean she views such a being as God with a capital G that should be worshiped, nor does it mean she believes there is any such entity to be referred to as God with a capital G. The Almighty can just as easily be attributed to being a spren (which considering how Roshar terms spren, would be applicable). She feels everything she has experienced and learned has only strengthened her convictions, not weakened them, but she apologizes to Shallan for the tangent.

Thanks. Here are just some ideas off the top of my head. Totally open to other thoughts: Jezerien - Herald of Kings - Highprince of ? (honestly this one is giving me trouble considering the idea is for a King to rule over the other 10 highprinces. Any ideas?) Nale - Herald of Justice - Highprince of Information (judges and cops) Chana - Herald of (doesn't say on coppermind) - Highprince of Security/Defense? (since her order has the ideals of brave and obedient, and for some reason I feel like it was mentioned she was a guard in life, perhaps highprince of security regarding guards, and patroling forces. Keeping the peace in the outlying areas from bandits. ) Vedel - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but she is mentioned with surgeons) - Highprince of Health? (runs hospitals, medical research, and etc) Pailiah - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but considering she focuses on growth) - Highprince of Agriculture? Shalash - Herald of Beauty - Highprince of the Arts? Considering it doesn't coincide with the Alethi warlike nature, I could see why this would be less appealing to most. This and the highprinces of health, and agriculture lol. Battar - Herald of (doesn't say on the coppermind but considering what she is associated with and her radiant order I think we can guess) - Highprince of Science? Kalak - Herald of (doesnt say on the coppermind, but I believe he is referred to as the builder so) - Highprince of Infrastructure? Talenel - Herald of War - Highprince of War (this we already know what it does) Ishar - Herald of Luck - Highprince of Faith (I feel this is because of what we potentially know of the herald himself, and his abilities as well as the bondsmiths associated)

But it would for all intents and purposes be a normal fabrial. Have we seen heating fabrials and the like cut by swords? I would imagine they could be. The exception would be the Oathgate, but I would imagine that would be due to its function of having a radiant blade inserted to use it. Would be kinda counter productive if the "key" you are using could pierce around the keyhole if you missed. Just in case, to clarify in my theory the spren themselves aren't death, nor are any oaths broken. It would be shifting the bond from the radiant who died of "natural" causes (who most definitely can be chopped up by a sword lol), to a fabrial/mechanical. The fabrial would be just as easily physically broken. The radiant and radiant spren would be fine with it, because it would be at the choice of the spren to continue their bond but to a fabrial. They would retain sapience, but give up the chance to progress further. Like I said, its pure conjecture. There is absolutely no in book evidence to support what I am saying. I am more coming up with a function to answer a question, than provide in book evidence to do so. In all likelihood I am wrong. Just a theory I came up with.

Forgot to clarify. My theory is that the spren are of a certain oath, but are not still bonded to the radiant. Basically I theorize when their human dies, they get a choice. They can either go back to the cognitive and either bond a new knight, or remain unbonded, ooooooooorrrr they voluntarily "bond" to a fabrial which is what enables radiant surges to be used. For instance the oathgate. So in my theory, depending on how many oaths was sworn before the spren became attached to the fabrial, would determine how strong it is/how many essences it could manipulate. So the soulcaster would not be like a shardblade. It is a regular fabrial, just powered by a radiant spren. I know, total crack pot theory, but just something I came up with

Even if that was true (which I do not believe is the case). Laral and Jasnah dispute that. Even if you could provide evidence to (in your opinion) dispute what Calderis said about Laral. Jasnah disputes that. Jasnah was clear and unequivocally shown to be the ruler of Alethkar in truth. So not sure where we can go from here.