shawnhargreaves

Isn't the first half of the Wit epilogue pretty much exactly Brandon's answer to this thread?

Anyone have a copy of WoK handy? (I'm at work right now) Been meaning to look up the exact wording of the flashback where Tien dies, in search of hints that could be Skybreaker activity.

We don't know what or why Hoid is up to, but collecting magic from different systems is the main thing we've seen him doing across multiple books. I suspect that is important in ways much deeper than just a slight power boost. Do you have a source for this?

Adolin is just a thoroughly nice guy. Lots of friends, besties with his weird kid brother, and has the kind of solid relationship with his dad that lets him question his father's sanity (during WoK) while remaining supportive and non-confrontational. He earns the trust of Kaladin (who wasn't exactly preinclined to appreciate a lighteyed prince!) and Shallan (who finds him a steadying influence while dealing with her own crazy), and is able to appreciate their unique strengths. He has achieved a top level of skill in his chosen field, and is a capable military commander, respected by his men. Etc, etc. Maybe not the brightest bulb in the pack, but he is bright enough, capable, reliable, and simply a GOOD person. How did this happen? His childhood seems like a recipe for disaster. Dalinar was NOT a good father! Often absent, preoccupied by his work, struggling with anger and addiction. Occasionally spent time with Adolin (so they could bond over a shared love of military excellence) but I bet Dalinar was the kind of parent who missed a lot of his kids practice duels, at the last minute after promising to be there :-) Everyone around him looked up to Dalinar, but also feared him. Evi seems like an incredible woman. She gave her children love and stability, but they also had to watch her obvious misery and disfunctional marriage. Dalinar and Evi fundamentally disagreed not just on life goals and priorities, but also on really important basic stuff like how to listen to a partner and resolve disagreements without fighting. And then she died while they were still young. And their dad wouldn't talk about the details. And he drank more. And then he wouldn't talk about Evi at all, for reasons we now understand but they did not. Most kids from that background would have a deep anger at the world, temper management issues, and would struggle to trust others or forming lasting relationships. Doubly so where there remaining parent was concerned. Adolin does indeed skitter around the lasting relationship thing, but he has no problem with trust or anger, and makes it through some really difficult situations with Dalinar seemingly without breaking a sweat. In short, Adolin is amazing! I hope Dalinar realizes just how lucky he got there.

Wow, what an awesome (not to mention lengthy) thread! I'm struggling to avoid just repeating points that have already been worded better by others. I, along with it seems many others, felt unsatisfied with how these relationships were left at the end of OB. Not because I particularly wanted things to go one way or the other, but because it felt way too rushed. Shallan has a LOT of unresolved issues, not least among which is the Helaran reveal, which she pushed down, told herself not to think about, and then never brought back out again. She's leaping into marriage in the hope that Adolin will stabilize her, but I'm a firm believer that marrying someone in order to fix yourself works just about as well as having a baby in order to fix a marriage does (i.e. it doesn't work at all). A good relationship can help you grow and improve, but you need to get yourself more or less into a healthy place before embarking on one. I just don't think Shallan is there yet, and the hasty way she made this decision does not give me confidence for the future. So what's going to come next? Maybe this plot line is finished, in which case I'll be a little disappointed in Brandon as a writer. Surely not???! Perhaps the love triangle tension and hinting will continue without really going anywhere, in which case I'll be REALLY disappointed. I don't expect this though. Things might get really dark as Shallan realizes she made a mistake, leading to her final truth being something like "I made the wrong choice and don't love my husband any more". This would be unlike anything Brandon has done before, but it would be interesting and I would enjoy reading it. From a different writer, I'd be thinking maybe Shallan and Adolin stay happily married while Veil has an affair with Kaladin. Not Brandon though. But here's my call: Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin is a parallel to Navani/Gavilar/Dalinar. Because Roshar and symmetry. A literal repeat would involve Kaladin going to an increasingly dark place, Adolin getting assassinated somewhere around the end of book 5, Kaladin pulling things back together during the second arc, etc etc. But true symmetry is about mirroring, not copying. I'm not sure exactly what a mirror of that previous plotline would look like, but that's where I think this is going. In which case it's not over yet. One thing I did really like about this triangle is that it didn't really turn out to be a triangle in the traditional sense. They're all just nice people, and all three have strong friendships aside from the romantic aspect. I appreciated that Adolin and Kaladin weren't prancing around being macho at each other, and that Kaladin and Shallan are clearly both committed to remaining close friends who support each other in important ways. There aren't enough books in which a man and woman are friends, feel attraction, it doesn't work out, but they stay friends.

Hoid does crazy dangerous things all the time. It's not every day that you get a chance to pick up a spren of one of the higher types, which has already transitioned into the physical realm, then been weakened by death of its Radient, so you can swan in and grab it without having to actually be on the regular path toward establishing a bond yourself. I think he was just using a shortcut hack to collect a new magic (as per usual).

I think these ancient soulcasters are different enough from modern fabrials that they aren't really the same thing at all. Navani makes machines, designed by science and powered by spren. Once manufactured, anyone can use them just by pressing a button. A soulcaster, on the other hand, is weird magic, requiring a special connection to operate and exacting a terrifying cost. Navani used to believe that soulcasters were a type of fabrial that would someday be reverse engineered, but recently changed her mind.

My point is a little more subtle than that. This is not just about whether they came before or not (I'd guess before, but don't know for sure), but whether Jasnah has any way to know that. I can't imagine how she could be sure, in which case such a meticulous scholar wouldn't describe these images as being their true faces without injecting softening words like "probably".

I doubt Odium had enough direct control over the Thrill to specifically make Dalinar attack Gavilar. Nergaoul is described as being mindless, equally affecting all sides in whatever fighting is going on around him.

I don't know whether the depictions would be accurate. Seems like that depends on when that decoration was made. Original, or a later interior decoration renovation? But regardless of whether they were accurate or not, how would Jasnah know if they were accurate? She said "drawings of their true faces, provided by an unexpected source". If these came from Urithiru, I'd expect that to be "drawings that may or may not be their true faces, obtained from the obvious place".

Something was going on there around this time, though. If the GB letter to Shallan can be trusted, there was another Radiant or proto-Radiant in Amaram's army who was killed by the Skybreakers. Any theories who that might have been?

That doesn't fit with Jasnah's "provided by an unexpected source" statement. The person who we all know draws all the time, drawing a copy of something we found in this tower that we've all been living in for the last while, wouldn't exactly be unexpected... Also not sure how accurate those drawings would be. If I follow the timeline correctly, the Heralds were gone after the last Desolation, but the Knights Radiant continued long after that. Decorations in Urithiru may be from a time when the Heralds were already ancient legend.

Shadowfax was magic too, though, in that Tolkeinish never-fully-explained manner. OMG was Shadowfax bonded to a spren? Roshar LOTR crossover confirmed!

Midius is definitely Hoid. I'm intrigued by the drawings-are-by-Shallan + Oilsworn-is-Hoid idea. Not convinced, but definitely maybe. I had assumed Jasnah got them from Hoid (along with her info about the cause of the Recreance) but I don't think we've ever seen Hoid draw before? Shallan does of course, and has her Memories to make accurate reproductions of what she saw in a vision. It could be. On the bigger topic of Hoid in OB, Brandon really moved him forward here. This is the first canon work where his ancient nature is explained in the text. Previously we knew a lot about him (well, not exactly a lot, but most of the little we do know) from WoB, but someone who only read the books without Internet access would see only a mysterious character who pops in different books and tells strange stories. This is the first time such a reader would learn (in more than place!) that he is incredibly ancient, even more so than the Heralds, that there is at least one god who swears by him, etc. A whole bunch of more casual readers who never looked at the forums just got their minds blown. And then for those of us who do frequent the forums, Brandon throws in more subtle nuggets like the Midius name.

All these stories have multiple meanings, but it seems to me that they all in some way refer to the history of Roshar. Wandersail -> ancient humans turning away from Odium and toward Honor, and realizing the things they'd been doing in his name (after giving up their passions to Odium) were actually them all along. Fleet -> death of Honor? And/or breaking of the Heralds? Girl Who Looked Up -> humans refusing to stay in Shinovar. Goodnight Moon -> I'm not sure yet :-) The queen tricked a heavenly being into temporarily changing places, thus gaining access to another heavenly being, getting pregnant, and permanently injecting "moon DNA" into her people as a result. Is this somehow about the switch of human allegiance from Odium to Honor, and humans taking over spren bonds from the singers? One night of passion with Honor, bonded some spren, swapped right back to their previous Odious ways (which led to fighting among the Radiant orders and eventually the Recreance) but kept the blue skin aka spren bonding ability? (tenuous I know but it sorta fits)

I think each of the 10 surges can be applied to each of the 3 realms, thus leading to a bunch of options we haven't seen yet (plus of course some that we have).

I thought that was Nightblood. Awakened blades v2 (like Azure carries) don't seem to "bleed darkness". But how would the Nightwatcher have Nightblood to give? Was she able to pull strings such that it would fall into Dalinar's hands, or was it literally in her possession at that time? In which case, did Zahel previously visit the Nightwatcher?

I'm amazed nobody has brought up Szeth playing paintball yet. I loved Lift. Meet Dalinar for the first time, and comment on him having a tight arse. And, when asked if she brought a weapon, “Nope. Can’t read.”

I'm with Bliev on this one. The given explanation stank to high heaven of there's more to learn here. Not saying it is untrue, but suspect a classic Brandon in-world explanations are often incomplete situation.

re. Ialai: But Alethkar has fallen now! I think a lot of things that used to matter just got swept away in a major way. We're left with a bunch of highprinces, Radiants, and armies, separated from their former kingdom which basically no longer exists. It's hard to imagine that House Sadeas will have any influence or plot impact going forward. (although, Brandon does have a track record of doing things that I found hard to imagine until I read them, so who knows :-) fwiw I think Adolin acted honorably here, at least according to one of the many possible codes of honor that we've seen in action. The differences between Radiant orders make it quite clear that there are multiple equally valid codes in action at the same time. Killing Sadeas wasn't Kaladin-honorable or Dalinar-honorable, but there is a form of honor in removing someone who a: attacked you first and b: was doing real and ongoing harm to the world. Shallan felt that way, for instance. I agree with the OP that there were consequences. Adolin never regretted what he did, though, and I'm ok with that. It's not the choice I would have hoped to make myself, but it's a valid choice and he owned it. Good for him.

In some ways a hive mind is the opposite of autonomy, but I find the idea of a Sleepless <-> Bavadin connection intriguing. Take my +1.

Well, a lot of unexpected things happened in that book. Including Szeth playing paintball. Did not see that one coming even a little bit :-) I'm not normally a fan of magical sports in fantasy novels (quidditch, meh...) but that was awesome in every way.

Having tried many over the last few days, I found a favorite: In comfy armchair next to roaring fire, while a winter storm shakes the windows and a mink is curled up purring in my lap.

I don't believe it's possible to judge a book of this complexity after only having read it once! After many rereads and extended digestion of the first two over many years, I understand their nuances in a way that just isn't possible for OB yet. I know that I loved my first read, and I expect to read it many more times in the years to come. There are depths here for sure, and I'm looking forward to putting in the time to explore them. Maybe I'll be able to answer this around the time book #4 comes out? Or maybe not. "What's your favorite book" is for me a bit like asking a parent to pick which of their kids they love the best :-)

Huh, that wasn't my impression at all. Dalinar was not a great father to either of his boys. Distant both physically and emotionally, and later on an alcoholic who was unable (for reasons we understand but they did not) to even mention the sudden death of their mother. But he was much closer to Adolin than to Renarin: spending time with him, teaching skills, bonding over shared interests, etc, while Renarin stayed home in the capital. Adolin was popular, good at things the Alethi valued, and had a solid relationship with both his parents. Meanwhile Renarin was sickly, strange, and neglected by his dad. And Jasnah? We don't know her backstory yet (I can't wait to read it!) but I fear it's going to be ugly. She has a powerful anger at the world, although her logic mostly lets her keep that hidden. Several times she says or things things along the lines of not understanding why anyone would ever want to get married. She REALLY hates Amaram, despite Gavilar having tried to set them up together. I have a nasty suspicion that Amaram may have molested/raped her. I don't think anything like this happened to Adolin, for instance: