shawnhargreaves

I bet you 5 upvotes that you won't still feel this way after his flashbacks in SA3...

Boy, you are really down on Szeth, huh? Murderer, sure. But cold blooded, absolutely not! Throughout WoK he went out of his way to obey his orders in whatever way would cause the least carnage. When explicitly ordered to cause maximum carnage, this tore him up and drove him crazy. He tried not to let his masters realize just how powerful a weapon he was, and was distraught midway through WoK when he fell into the hands of someone who already understood this and would use him to maximum potential. He hears the screams of those he killed on endless replay inside his head, tormenting him and further messing with his already broken sanity. I love Szeth. He has an insanely strong moral code, which unfortunately prioritized "obey the holder of your truthstone" over "don't kill massive numbers of people". He doesn't LIKE that he killed these people, but he did what his code demanded. To me that makes an interesting character.

I'm surprised to see so little discussion about one of my favorite aspects of Stormlight, so figured I would start a new thread and see if I can't kickstart more appreciation for how amazingly well Brandon is writing this. Many have noted that key Stormlight characters are not what one might describe as neuro-typical: Kaladin has clinical depression and seasonal affective disorder (I list these separately although the symptoms are similar, because we see several bouts of depression independent of the Weepings) Shallan has many of the classic coping mechanisms developed by abuse survivors: repressed memories, difficulty trusting others, multiple layers of fabrication in her dealings with others because she defaults to assuming the truth needs to be protected and hidden. Renarin is some distance along the Autism spectrum, suffering from mild Asperger's. This lends itself to several avenues of speculation: We know the Nahel bond requires a prospective Radiant to be "broken" before it can be established. Is this the same thing as the aforementioned neuro-atypicalities, in which case can we expect all future Radiants to have equivalent issues of their own? If so, what's going on with Dalinar, Jasnah, Lift, etc? Since Brandon obviously has a theme of exploring lead characters with unusual neuro characteristics in Stormlight, what else might we see him tackle in future installments? I'd love to see a manic depressive character. How about schizophrenia? What's the betting that Taln has a severe case of PTSD? But more importantly, I'm blown away by how sensitively Brandon has handled these issues in the two books we've seen so far. This subject matter is rarely addressed in the fantasy genre, and riddled with traps for authors of any genre, but so far Brandon has dodged every pitfall: Defining characters by their ailment. Nobody wants to read about 1D caricatures like the depressed surgeon or the autistic prince, but Brandon creates interesting, fully fledged individuals who have plenty else going on to the point where an inattentive reader could enjoy the books without even noticing this aspect of the characters. Making excuses for their weaknesses. Kaladin isn't awesome for a guy who was so dang depressed it took an effort for him to even drag himself out of bed that morning - he's just flat out awesome by any standard you care to measure him by. I particularly appreciate this about Renarin, who hasn't had his big awesome moment yet - there's plenty of foreshadowing that such a thing is coming, but at this point most in-world characters don't get Renarin and have no idea what he is good for. Love that Brandon doesn't give him any outs along the lines of "well, he did ok considering..." Minimizing their challenges. It's all too easy to present a character who has major difficulties but then sorta forget those difficulties and have them go on to do awesome stuff like it didn't even matter. But no. Kaladin's depression massively holds him back in more than one place. Shallan's secretiveness and inability to trust (esp. Jasnah) causes needless complications. We're still waiting for a Renarin POV, but it's pretty obvious he was fighting his way through some major roadblocks in places that could have been plain sailing for someone with different neurology. These are complex, realistic characters who have serious impediments that cause them major difficulties, yet refuse to be defined by these impediments and refuse to accept limits on what they can achieve. Role models for us all, and hats of to Brandon for writing this so well!

Word! I started writing a long reply here about how much I love the way Brandon is dealing with neuroatypical characters in this series, but realized it was off topic for this thread, plus I wish we would all talk more about this so I'm going to start a new thread instead.

Very interesting theory! I've thought for some time that Renarin was using Truthwatcher powers during this scene in ways that will become obvious to us when we someday learn more about what these powers are. This strikes me as a plausible candidate.

Other than be mysterious and seemingly important, true enough. But I think Gavilar's plan (which he was killed to prevent) involved the orb. So indirectly, it got him killed, started a war, nearly wiped out the Parshendi, and then brought the Everstorm. I don't have any specific theory about what was inside the orb (just that it was important and came from Odium via Venli), but I'm pretty sure it's not Nergaoul. Taravangian comments in his WoR interlude on the Thrill being felt in Jah Keved as well as Alethkar, and thinks his scholars might be able to use this fact to pinpoint location. I don't think that fits with a spren that's been captured. At this point Venli was acting against the Parshendi as a whole, without the knowledge of Eshonai or their other leaders.

I didn't think Syl was sentient that far back? Pattern says Spren with minds were far less common at that time.

So where are the other spren that survived alongside the Stormfather? I feel like we've probably seen them already, but am racking my brains to think where :-)

Stormlight is full of groups of people doing scientific research. Navani and her ardents. Venli and her group of scholars. Taravangian (the epitome of individual genius) is assisted by academics who transcribe and decode the Diagram. The closest thing we've seen to a solitary researcher is Jasnah, but even she spends time traveling to libraries where she is assisted by others. This is a realistic (unusually so for the fantasy genre) portrayal of how research happens, with groups of smart people pooling ideas and building in small steps on the progress of others. Which leaves me puzzling over where Gavilar got that black sphere. He knew rather a lot about some rather important stuff, but has no obvious support group to have learned this from. Navani and Jasnah are out - we've seen too much of their concerns and motivations to have missed if they knew what the black sphere was about. There are the visions, but Dalinar has these too, and no mention of black spheres in those. And Gavilar had ties to a surprising number of secret societies, but we've seen at least glimpses of what these societies are aiming for, and again no mention of black spheres. My theory is based on rather slim evidence: 1) Immediately before his assassination, Gavilar was off gallivanting around the Shattered Plains with the Parshendi 2) We've seen that Venli knows how to capture Spren in gemstones 3) In WoR interlude 13, Eshonai notices some things about Venli: And later: I think Odium got to Venli a long time ago, that she took on one of the other forms of power, learned things, met in secret with Gavliar, and gave him the black sphere. The Parshendi killed him to prevent return of their gods, little knowing that these gods were already back and had set up this whole situation. So Odium (via Venli and her group of researchers) is directly responsible for triggering the war and all that followed. This also sets up an confrontation between the sisters as Eshonai proves stronger than Venli was, and I'm hoping will be able to someday escape this influence.

Pattern describing the Recreance to Shallan in WoR chapter 75: (my bolding) So this was basically a genocide among the spren. But where are the others that survived? It's a small number, and my guess is the survivors will be the most powerful spren (like the Stormfather) who are probably now insane or broken in some way. My first thought on noticing this passage was that the Unmade could be insane survivor spren who were previously bonded with Radiants, and who became "unmade" after having their bond ripped away. But Yelig-nar is mentioned in one of Dalinar's visions with Nohadon. Do we know if Nohadon came before or after the Recreance? (I'm not clear on the sequencing of Rosharan history)

This comes down to the difference between theory-shipping and (for want of a better term) ship-shipping. Key differences between these mindsets: Theory-shipping: Tries to predict what WILL happen Breaks the third wall - very aware that this is a story in a book, and takes into account everything known about the author (extrapolation based on knowledge of their style from previous works, real world interviews, etc.) Ship-shipping: Explores what the shipper would LIKE (or find interesting) to happen Stays within the in-story universe From a theory perspective, you are entirely right. In the real world of future SA novels, it is extremely unlikely that Brandon will write Kalodin or Kallarin, because we know from interviews that he is planning to introduce a gay character but feels cautious and wants to make sure he gets this right. It is a stretch to expect he would dive right in to something he is clearly nervous about by unexpectedly bringing together a couple of the main leads. We also know that Brandon is a master of foreshadowing, but even with an army of people scrutinizing the text for any signs of such things, there's little to be found. But from a ship perspective, none of that matters. To a ship-shipper there is no author, just some characters in a world. Thus the vibe of interactions between these characters becomes more important than presence or absence of explicit foreshadowing, and it can be fun to explore many things that we know full well are unlikely to ever become canon.

It's obviously Stick. The mixing of "I' and "we" is a natural result of the whole tree/forest duality - I don't think Stick has a strong understanding of singular vs. plural. When Brandon says its a "group of people" he's just being tricksy with us, as in the cognitive realm Stick considers itself to be people too.

Good point. We haven't seen anything explicit about Rosharan attitudes to same sex relationships, but based on other characteristics of their society (most importantly the rigidly segregated gender roles) I can't imagine it would be accepted. In which case people who are gay are not going to talk about it in public, and many who are bisexual will find it easier to ignore half of their sexuality and concentrate on the other part that society encourages. So it's likely we've already seen bi characters without any externally visible signs, Also, if I'm right that Roshar is not down with same sex anything, I think that argues for Kalarin over Kadolin. Where better than Bridge 4 to find acceptance of something a little different?

Dude! Now the wrath of Feather will be upon us for sure :-) You're flat out wrong here, though. Adolin would have died during WoR (and lost all the Kholin shards to boot) if not for Renarin. Do you forget what he did during that last duel? I just love the way Brandon wrote this. Renarin jumps into the ring, so ok, we know he's brave and cares about his brother, but then he just sorta stands around not doing much while Adolin and later Kaladin are leaping around doing virtuosic duel-y stuff. Everyone in world, plus at that point in the book most readers, think here we go again, Renarin is trying to fight but panics and ends up being useless... BUT! He keeps the attention of a fully armored shardbearer, without which Adolin would have been in serious trouble. It's not entirely clear from the text what happened between them (Renarin certainly wasn't fighting effectively with his blade) but somehow his opponent ends up losing it and running out of the arena. Later on we learn Renarin is a Truthwatcher (and was already bonded at this point, as he'd previously healed his eyesight) so I start thinking hmm, I bet something Truthwatcher-y (whatever that turns out to be) was going on in the arena here beyond what we could see. And then we learn about the screaming of dead shardblades when held by bonded Radiants, and realize that Renarin was hearing this all the time... I call that both useful and heroic. I love how Brandon left it so understated (in line with the inward focused nature of Truthwatchers) that Adolin and Kaladin come away with all the praise. And I love how he structured the book in such a way that first time readers know nothing about Truthwatchers or screaming shardblades during this scene. It's only when you revisit it in the light of revelations from the end of the book that you can piece together more about what Renarin was experiencing here and realize how amazing he truly was.

I just finished my re-read so it's fresh in my memory, but I didn't have a problem with her behavior. She was in a crisis situation, trying to do something about it, being distracted by someone she didn't know and who did not appear to be acting helpfully. You have to admit Renarin was not communicating particularly effectively at this point! Not to mention he had not build up much trust as someone to be relied on in this kind of crisis (those of us paying attention realize how amazing what he did holding his Shardblade during that final duel was, but nobody in-world yet understands what that was about). I've certainly snapped at people during a crisis before, and had to apologize later. I do agree an apology from Shallan would be in order, but I think you're holding her to an unreasonably high standard here.

The Internet would collapse from boredom if everybody agreed about stuff like this :-) Phew. If anything I'd say Shallan pretty much ignored (or at least failed to significantly notice) Renarin, rather than treating him particularly badly. Which was understandably disappointing to those who had hoped for more, but I think not really fair to hold a grudge against Shallan for! She was pretty distracted with other goings on, and Renarin didn't exactly put himself out there or try to initiate anything. This is the catch-22 with getting to know introverted people: no matter how great someone is once you break through their walls, the signs of that potential can be pretty subtle prior to putting in enough relationship building effort, and if you miss those signs, how to know that it's going to be worth your while to put in the effort in the first place? I'm looking forward to the moment (I fear several books down the line) when Renarin's awesome finally becomes evident for all to see, but in the meantime I don't think we can blame everyone who fails to notice him. Interesting. Yeah... I don't agree but can see where you are coming from. In a book with a more explicit romance focus I would totally agree that the metastructure of this pairing is too obvious, but what makes this work for me is that it ISN'T the focus of Stormlight. Neither Kaladin or Shallan is looking for a relationship at all (well, Shallon kinda was with Adolin, but really she just wanted a way to save her brothers). They spend relatively little screen time talking or thinking about each other (in the context of a VERY long book no less) and the main thrust of the story is about their personal, inward looking character development. I guess what I would find cloying as a main entree works for me as seasoning on top of a story that's primarily about something else. And leaving aside the meta aspect to look at specific interactions, what can I say, the chasm scene just felt right to me. Real people acting like grownups, opening up to each other, starting to trust. I found it touching and real. Versus the Shallan/Adolin interactions, which I thought were also real and cute but more like a fun teenage crush than foundation of something that could actually last.

That's certainly the most obvious interpretation, but I believe something rather stronger: Lunu'anak IS Hoid, who must have been to Roshar before in order for there to be legends about him, and these legends are accurate, so Rock was exactly in recognizing Hoid as Lunu'anak. I think Brandon is hiding something rather important in plain sight here, in such a way that we all assume it's "just a legend".

I just can't help feeling that Rock knows more than he ought to, and that his seemingly silly/mythological story will later turn out to be 100% accurate.

Feather, I am struggling to understand your dislike of the Shallan/Kaladin ship. The main objections I have seen raised to this elsewhere are: Some people simply don't like Shallan as a character (a viewpoint I can respect, although I do not share it) Dislike love triangles and don't want Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin to develop into Twilight (valid point, but I think worrying too much about this underestimates Brandon by a considerable amount - I trust him to handle this well wherever it goes) Don't like the idea of main male and female lead characters becoming romantically involved (I don't understand this objection at all - for me it's about the details of any specific pairing rather than the surrounding structure of where each character is placed within the story) Your dislike of this pairing seems more visceral than I've seen from others, but you don't appear to be in the "dislike Shallan entirely" camp. As a Kaladin/Shallon shipper, I would love to understand where this is coming from?

Lightweaving?

From Rock's story about when he saw Lunu'anaki: This tickled a vague memory of having read something before about Hoid being unable to harm anyone, but I can't find references now. Am I imagining that? Struck me as a significant nugget of info, anyway.

This thread got a little derailed discussing Hoid's cleverness in punning against a comment made much earlier in the book. While interesting, this just is an aside to the REALLY IMPORTANT original point that he refers to himself as spiritually blind. That's a Realmatically important statement, and not the kind of thing Hoid would say by accident. I have no idea what it means, but it sure smells of long term significance.

This makes total sense to me. We know Lift exists partly in the cognitive realm. We know that where cognitive stuff is concerned, it's how people (and things) see themselves that matters. And we know that Lift sees herself as being 10. So, yeah... Solid conclusion!

Re-reading WoR chapter 43 (where Shallon meets Mraize) two things struck me: 1) Mraize repeatedly talks about people as prey. "Deciding not to come in person, however - that cowardice turns my stomach. She hides, like prey." And later on, "Amaram is a Shardbearer in the court of Highprince Sadeas. He is also my current prey." 2) Something about Mraize reminds Shallon of her childhood memories of Hoid. "One drew her attention most. [snip] He reminded her of someone, a man from her childhood. The messenger with the smiling eyes, the enigma who knew so much. Two blind men waited at the end of an era, contemplating beauty..." Wildly hypothesizing based on feel of this chapter rather than any actual evidence, something about Mraize feels dragonish to me. The word "prey", his magnetism, collection of treasures, claw-like fingers on his scarred right hand, and the way Shallon feels his eyes on her back as she leaves. Of course this could just be Brandon writing a strong, charismatic villain, but I'm going with Mraize as dragon. And since Shallon recognized Mraize as being somehow similar to Hoid, that would mean Hoid is one too...

Interesting idea. I had forgotten all about that document, but you're entirely right - many interesting things would ensue if Adolin was to use it now!